Holy Handsanitizer, Batman! I love this deck. I use to play a boring old UR Combo Control version of the deck. It was not fun to play and made me way too many enemies, so I never played it (which is sad because I have a Force of Will and a Mana Drain in the deck that was just going to waste). I'm definitely thinking of building a version more along the lines of this style.
I am in the process of assembling my own Niv-Mizzet deck and happened across this. I was just curious about your opinion of trying to build a decent Nivvy deck on small budget (and I mean pretty small, like under 100. Single cards worth >$10 are pushing it.). Can it be done well?
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Hey! This is one of the best Niv decks I've seen and a major influence on own my deck and subsequently my primer. Your understanding of the deck goes a long way.
Just wondering if you are still actively piloting ole Niv?
If Niv gets shuffled in, you are pretty much guaranteed to draw him back out. In my deck list I've added some alternate win conditions that don't even need Niv in play. I've also added Ethereal Usher to search for Niv if he gets shuffled or to grab Consecrated Sphinx and my other 6 CMC cards.
This list hasn't been updated since 2012. I originally took this list and played it, slowly making replacements until I ended up with what I have now. I would consider my list (the official primer in sig) to be the more evolved version and includes cards from the most recent sets.
Hey everyone, thanks for all the kind words! Sorry I haven't been around much - I've had quite a few other things pulling for my attention, so Magic has had to take second-seat for a while (school, activities, getting ready for grad school this fall, spending what little free time I have with friends, etc.)
At any rate, I plan to be making more updates in the coming weeks. Nothing too huge as I feel the core deck experience is pretty much finalized, but there will be testing of many of the fun and exciting new cards we've seen in the last year or so! I realize that the original post is now quite out-dated, so I plan to tweak that to reflect the changes I'll be making.
Cards I'm currently considering adding:
Omniscience - SO tempting. SO expensive. Maybe TOO expensive when Dream Halls is available for half the price.
Trinket Mage - It really is THAT worth it to grab Sol Ring early on.
Scroll Rack - As the start to games is rather slow, this can really help to sort and find the critical land-drops.
Chaos Warp - Self-explanatory in a deck with few direct answers.
Chromatic Lantern - Aggressively costed and helpful in such a color-intensive deck.
Temporal Mastery - Expensive, and I'm worried about it being dead-weight later on. But, it could really help early-game, which is where this deck needs help.
Cryptic Command - Keeps coming back, looking for space here. I love it. Maybe too expensive, though..... so maybe:
Rewind - I HATE 4cc counterspells, generally, but maybe I'll give it a shot.
Vedalken Orrery - I originally chose between this and Leyline of Anticipation. But if I'm cutting lots of chaff from the deck, maybe I should give both a chance to shine?
Ral Zarek - At 4cc, he's very strong. Unfortunately he doesn't synergize with the deck (or setup for a win), so I'm worried about his viability - but we'll see.
Snapcaster Mage - Insane tech! Excited to test. However, I feel he'll be less useful, as my graveyard often has zero non-permanents, and rarely (if ever) more than 2 or 3.
Cards I'm likely pulling:
Arcanis, the Omnipotent - Shiny and tempting, but he MAY be just too expensive. If I can get him to stick he's great - but not a help early-on.
Duplicant - Doesn't mesh AT ALL with the deck. 90% of the time he's dead weight, this deck doesn't care about removal - it needs to race to the wincon, not waste an entire turn removing a creature.
Laboratory Maniac - An AMAZING alternative wincon if your group plays cards like Urza's Armor-esque cards.... but, my playgroup doesn't, so I don't run it right now (Shhh, don't tell them ^_^)
Venser, Shaper Savant - Strong in the right situation, but often I'd rather just have another mana rock or accelerator.
Insurrection - Led me to the most GLORIOUS victory ever. Seriously, one of the best games I've ever played. But, only once.
Quicken - Only works on sorceries, which limits its potential greatly.
Blatant Thievery - Undecided on this guy. Very good at saving you in the late-game, but often dead weight in the hand. I feel that Omniscience is the better choice when choosing a card for a high-cc slot.
Confiscate - On the edge on this one. It really depends on your playgroup - mine tends to use many cheap, efficient permanents, where it's not worth 6cc to steal. This won't be the first to go, though - it has its shining moments.
Crystal Shard - Nifty, but it only works with a few cards, and otherwise it's junk here. Nowadays I typically don't even play Niv until the turn I combo off, so I don't have a reason to want to save him.
Riptide Laboratory - It's neat in many situations, but whenever I get it in the first few turns, I honestly just wish it were an Island.
Academy Ruins - I don't think my current decklist actually has this in there anyway. The handcycling cards recycle the graveyard already - and NEEDING to get an artifact back, right away, happens so rarely that not generating colored mana isn't worth it.
Upheaval - This deck needs a way to reset the game. Upheaval followed by a handcycling card accomplishes that goal flawlessly. Unfortunately it's banned in Commander I really wish the rules would be bent on this one....
Melek, Izzet Paragon - Really nifty, but 6cc is a bit steep when the "copy" ability only works on spells played off the top of the library. He's good but he doesn't help me reach the end-goal.
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage - I don't want a limit on handsize - that's the surest way to deck yourself. Her other abilities are OK, but not here, at that cost.
Piracy - Thanks to xbinox for the heads-up.... opponents can just tap-out in response.
Desolate Lighthouse - I REALLY, REALLY do NOT want to put in more colorless mana sources. This deck actually has some problems with that already...
Let me know what works for you!! I've had very little time for Magic recently, so I'm excited to hear how things are going for all of you and I'm very open to suggestions.
EDIT: Reading through the OP, I'm realizing JUST how outdated it is - I'm so sorry! I'll get to it soon. Thanks everyone!
First things first, thumbs up for all the work you've already put into this deck and the primer (at least one grade above average you tend to find on these forums).
Looking over your list, the land base really does look like it's weakest link. Even with all the mana rocks in the deck playing a few more lands would really help the deck a lot.
- It might be due to financial reasons, but is there some other specific reason why you aren't running more fetchlands (every two colour combination can sport up to seven)? Scroll Rack's effectiveness improves by a significant margin with each additonal shuffle effect, and these don't even take up spell slots.
- Two lands that you could find especially useful are Seat of the Synod and Great Furnace. Having those adds a new dimension of versatility to some of the cards you are already playing (Trinket Mage, Fabricate, Tezzeret the Seeker). Sure, some times they might fall to enemy action but it's still worth it.
In short, there is a lot of space for fine-tuning and improvement when it comes to the mana base. I hope some of these suggestions have been helpful.
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Hi Drekavac, thanks for the reply! I've been making tons of tweaks over the past few weeks, and the current list is in transition. I've added all 7 fetches, and am very pleased with the results - they combo EXTREMELY well with things like Top + Counterbalance, Scroll Rack, Future Sight, etc.
Seat of the Synod and Great Furnace used to be here, but were cut as they were easy to target and could cripple the deck's momentum. I NEVER found myself searching for them (Top / Sol Ring are a much bigger priority, and late game I have better things to spend mana on to be worth the early-game risk), so I didn't see the benefit - they also die to Ruination, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, etc., which people may target knowing you're heavy in blue with counters. I do have a few other mana stones, but didn't want to give them even more targets (not to mention Shatterstorm)
Ghost Quarter will likely be replaced by an island, but I'm not planning to up the land count at the moment. In playtesting, the curve is actually quite nice as it stands - it's already at 36 lands, with a few rocks on the side, so it curves out fairly nicely (not fast enough for competitive 1v1... but that's not what it's for!).
The updates will continue, both with the list and the primer (I'm only about halfway through writing, so lots to come!). I'll let all of you know how things are working soon - thanks for the continued interest!
Great post. I also have a Niv deck based on handcycling and no combos. It's still so explosive that I win as quickly as if I were comboing. It's definitely one of my most fun decks to play!
Alrighty everyone! Some significant updates and additions have been made to the main list. There's still more to go, and I'll be adding to the second post soon.
i was thinking how does the legend rules changes affect this deck. A clone of Niv Mizzet from an opponent makes us lose first?
Hi Cronopio, I'm not really worried about enemy clones at all, for a variety of reasons:
a) The cloned Niv-Mizzet is still vulnerable to damage, so we can simply ping it to death. If Niv is already on the field, we are already drawing two cards per turn and only need to find a way to draw two more (and there are many ways to do this!). So, simply dealing 4 damage is the fastest and easiest solution to the clone.
b) Niv-Mizzet likely wouldn't be targetted by clones for this reason - he is actually quite fragile without the right protection, and the opponent would have little reason to want their own copy, especially when we can ping it to death. Plus, there are so many better options in a multiplayer game - your opponents will likely favor other creatures with immediate board presence or ETB effects, rather than hoping their copy of Niv would stick around (and we wouldn't let that happen!!!)
c) Assuming worst-case-scenario symmetric drawing, our Niv-Mizzets would likely kill each other (or at least, I would certainly target theirs - and the correct play on their part would be to target mine). In this case, we can recast Niv-Mizzet and simply use him again.
d) Our deck is designed to abuse the handcycling ability through cards like Thought Reflection and Consecrated Sphinx, where we are hopefully drawing more than our opponents. In most cases, I wouldn't think about trying to combo off without something like these to break the symmetry, so there would be virtually no risk in killing ourselves. The key here is that WE control when the hands recycle - and we simply need to solve other Niv-Mizzets before comboing off.
e) Niv-Mizzet should generally be cast the turn you combo off, or at an opponent's End-of-Turn directly before your untap phase (via flashing him in). This leaves a very small window (if any window) for opponents to even attempt to clone him, so ideally it won't even be a concern to begin with.
In a horrible, cruel world, we may find an opponent with a Consecrated Sphinx of their own, and (somehow) a hexproof, indestructible clone of Niv-Mizzet. That'd be tough to solve. But even then, we have an out in Cyclonic Rift, and then countering the clone the second time around.
Molten Psyche would solve the problem assuming 3 artifacts, but normally there isn't an instant speed clone that I'm aware of, so this problem is likely going to be obvious and if they leyline it in, at worst will cause us 7 damage.
HI!! this is an AMAZING PRIMER!! I built one just like it with some budget tweaks of my own. I suggest spelltwine as a great budget option!! also plagiarize is freaking awesome with all of the wheel/timetwister effects
EDIT: why do you use izzet boilerworks? doesn't it set you back a turn?
Seeing the name, I clicked it out of late night boredom to see yet another players take on wheels.dec with Niv-Mizzet as the commander, expecting the same boring tutor/draw/combo as before, but was delighted to see that you have a bit of a different light on it.
Reading "Archetype Overview & "Making Friends" made me want to track you, find you, and hug you simply for understanding how combo should be played in multiplayer EDH. Thank you sir. I'm not certain if you're intending to make this an official primer, but I think you should. It's really well written and your message must be spread across the lands of internetium.
Hey Firestorm, how is this not an official primer yet? I can tell you've recently put a lot of work into it and you are much more thorough on some aspects than I am.
I think there are a few big differences between our decks:
1. Your deck is designed for a strong late game while mine is trying to win as quickly as possible. The reason I've included monstrous cards like Show and Tell is because it seems like as soon as my playgroup realizes what my deck is capable of (despite all my diplomacy and holding back) they will try to hate me out early pretty much every time. As a result, the deck has become more and more competitive. I refuse to go the other way and dumb down the deck. But, I almost never use Curiosity or Ophidian Eye anymore and may take at least one of them out. This issue has really been a problem. I love this deck, but a lot of others hate it!
2. You've chosen a top deck toolboxing subtheme where I've chosen a gambit of mini-handcycling cards like Faithless Looting and Frantic Search. Future Sight and The Top are the most noteworthy cards missing from my list. I suppose I just prefer instant and sorcery spells over permanents. Maybe not the best argument, but it's worked okay for me. With Thought Reflection on board the cheapies are pretty killer and really help fix a bad opening hand with very little mana.
3. You run about twice as many hard counters than me. I guess I've just devoted more spots to ramp and draw. Sometimes I wish I had more answers but often, the counters are dead draws for me.
4. You've included 2 planeswalkers, both of which I've tried and taken out. I find I just can't protect them for the long hull and end up paying a lot of mana for a tiny effect. Not to say they are bad, but I just don't have enough of my own creatures to defend them against creature based decks.
Omniscience seems slightly redundant with Dream Halls in the deck. I would always rather have the latter in my opening hand bc of the cheaper cost. As much as possible I like my cards to be useful both early and late. Then again, I am trying to play a quicker game than you are.
Although it's currently not maindecked in my primer, All is Dust has been amazing for me and I think I will indeed maindeck it. Don't underestimate the superiority of "sacrifice" over "destroy". Also, since you don't have Chaos Warp it's a good answer for things like Iona, Shield of Emeria and other annoying stuff. Consider testing it out in place of one of the more sub par counters.
If you can afford it, I would swap out Acquire for either a Chrome Mox or a Mox Diamond. When you have a huge hand, no open mana, and no reliquary tower, you will thank me!
Elixir of Immortality just doesn't justify a spot IMO. It doesn't have enough of an effect on the game state. I'd run Diminishing Returns over it any day. More handcycling, and you get the shuffle effect. Yes, there are two problems with it: the exiling your top ten bit and the "...up to seven cards..." bit. But it's a Timetwister for one more U and costs $700 less!
I think it's a bit silly not to include Reliquary Tower. You've said that holding 20-30 cards in hand is pointless, but what about Winds of Change or Mindmoil? Don't you want to maximize damage with those cards? Often you can't make full use of your hand until your next turn anyway. Also, discarding is annoying!
Recurring Insight has played surprisingly well for me. I'm not dead set on its inclusion, but drawing 14 cards with 4UU is pretty nice. Often, it's a lot more with my copy spells and is rarely less because I keep everyone's hands full with the draw sevens. A good casting of Insight often leads to a win pretty quickly for me, because I can follow up with a Winds of Change or Dream Halls and just go crazy.
FYI, Dream Halls + Mindmoil is semi infinite handcycling. Do you just choose never to win with that combo?
Well I'm taking back a few of my suggestions. Omniscience is now maindecked and I like it. Hard casting it isn't very hard and makes for basically an auto-win. I ended up swapping Recurring Insight for it.
Something that has quickly become a little subtheme of my deck is graveyard recursion. I'm just going to copy that section of my primer for you:
GRAVEYARD RECURSION
Cards like Faithless Looting, Frantic Search, Windfall, and Wheel of Fortune fill the deck and they fill your graveyard pretty quick too. Being able to access those discarded cards means that the graveyard is almost like an extension of your hand.
To comprehend the power of this strategy imagine if Faithless Looting was R: Draw 4 cards, and Wheel of Fortune was 2R: Draw 14 cards. That's almost what's happening when you have effects that let you cast things from your graveyard just like they were in your hand. It's a powerful tool on our path to victory.
Being able to recur things from our graveyard means that we have the opportunity to cast them more than once. In a format where you can only have a single copy of each card, this gives us a leg up. For example, repeatedly casting handcycling effects, tutors, or board wipes makes for some insane advantage.
Once you understand how this works, you will be Reverberateing Wheel of Fortune on turn 4 or 5 just to start filling your graveyard with recursion options later. You also won't mind discarding key cards because you trust that you'll be able to get them back later. If I top deck Enter the Infinite on the first turn and discard it to Faithless Looting, my opponents will often forget that it's there until I cast it for the win using one of my recursion spells.
Graveyard recursion is also a natural protection against decks designed to discard your hand or mill you to death. Just got smacked in the face by Nicol Bolas with 30 cards in hand? Likely one of those cards was Past in Flames, or Recoup. You should at least be able to deal with the threat. Just got Traumatized and then Mind Funeraled? You should thank your opponent for giving you access to more than half your library.
Worth noting, Intuition becomes even more broken when you can actually cast all 3 spells that you fetch. Recoup + 2 sorceries that you need = win. Recoup can only target sorceries, but don't worry. Most of the relevant spells we have are sorceries. A good combo is usually two draw sevens and recoup. You'll be able to repeatedly hand cycle triggering Niv's ability and find key cards.
Need I explain why Snapcaster Mage is included? He has flash! He can target instants! And he's a frickin 2/1 creature! Just disgustingly broken for 1U.
Past in Flames has been called the red Yawgmoth's Will and understandably. While it might not be quite as good as the Will, it can still win you games. It's fun to cast Inner Fire with a substantial hand and then proceed to cast all the red spells in your graveyard including Inner Fire again and why not Reverberate it this time? Oh is that a Comet Storm? Alternatively you can chain a bunch of the cheaper handcycling effects and fill your graveyard even more while triggering damage from Niv.
RULES NOTE:
"9/22/2011 Only instant and sorcery cards in your graveyard when Past in Flames resolves will gain flashback. Instant and sorcery cards that are put into your graveyard later in the turn, including the resolving Past in Flames, won't gain flashback."
Also according to the rulings, Casting Comet Storm from your graveyard using flashback is perfectly legit. You can choose a value for X as well as pay kicker costs. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Archaeomancer - This is our only recursion that doesn't recur spells using flashback. This is advantageous since flashback doesn't play well with Omniscience or Dream Halls. It's also nice that the card isn't exiled when used again. Archaeomancer has some nice synergy with Riptide Laboratory and Evacuation. Laboratory allows just about any instant or sorcery to be recurred indefinitely.
Academy Ruins - This can be nice protection against artifact removal. It also lets you topdeck key pieces of ramp from your graveyard if they've been milled or discarded.
Here's the but:
Now, in a perfect world we would be home free but graveyard hate exists. Bojuka Bog, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void, Rest in Peace, and countless other nasties will try to nuke our graveyard and render our recursions spells useless! Don't hesitate to counter these spells when they pop up, especially if you know you're going to lose key cards. Bojuka Bog is especially despicable because it can't be responded to and is an auto include in just about every deck running black. I've considered running Extract or Jester's Cap for the sole reason of removing this card!
If you can can't counter the graveyard hate, maybe you can cast a graveyard shuffling effect at instant speed using Leyline of Anticipation. This is harder to do, but certainly gives the middle finger to these kinds of cards.
"The only action worth taking is one with an unknown outcome."
I am happy to announce a major formatting overhaul to better jive with the new forum platform! In addition, I've made some minor tweaks to improve the deck's performance and consistency.
I am glad this thread has been so helpful to so many, and I hope it continues to be a great resource for Commander deckbuilders the world around!
As an addition to the recent overhaul, I've also created a dedicated email address for answering questions, hearing your comments/concerns, and in general, opening lines to the community. Feel free to email me anytime with questions or concerns. That said, as a courtesy, I would ask that you also post your questions / comments here so I can respond to them publically for the benefit of everyone.
Thanks for the continued support!
Rowan - to address your above comments:
I run more counters, though I also find they are not always used. That's OK with me however, as when I absolutely need one, I very often have one, and that makes them worth it to me.
Planeswalkers - I agree - Tezzeret the Seeker has been cut, and I'm considering cutting Jace, The Mind Ssculptor as well. I'm very on-the-fence about it right now, but he may come out with more playtesting.
I like Izzet Boilerworks because it's two-mana-in-one-card early on, extending the reach of my opening hand. The sacrifice to tempo is unfortunate, but hitting 5-6 mana is more important to me. Dropping it Turn 2 is fine, there aren't many unanswerable game-changing spells coming that soon so having counter mana up is not absolutely critical. Bottom-line though: it's there because in an opening hand, I can generate the same mana with fewer lands.
I'm on the fence about Cephalid Coliseum because it's actually fairly rare for me to have Threshold. My deck is much more permanent-heavy than yours, and my instants are mostly all counterspells, so it isn't always an option. Late-game when I'm comboing out, I typically prefer Timetwister effects which wipe my GY anyway, and eliminate Threshold. That said I'll consider it and will pay attention to my life totals in the near future to see whether it would put me over the edge.
Acquire almost always finds an opponent's Gilded Lotus for me, so I basically see it as a copy of that card (since it's the same CMC). Also, I'm not so concerned with tempo and the negative card-advantage of Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond would be bad news for me.
Elixir of Immortality is on the chopping block too, I'm considering other options currently. Diminishing Returns does not replace it, as Elixir of Immortality + Timetwister allows me to handcycle indefinitely. Right now I'm considering Put Away as its replacement, because I would only need to recycle Timetwister (and not my entire GY) to allow for indefinite cycling. Snapcaster Mage is nice too. There's a chance I'll include both and remove another counterspell for something else.
You make a good point about Reliquary Tower - I was always concerned with decking myself, but the blue Timetwister effects recycle my hand anyway. I may cut an island for this.... I hate colorless lands though, especially when I'm so color-heavy.
Recurring Insight seems win-more to me and makes you a huge target if you don't go off that turn
Dream Halls + Mindmoil loses you two cards per cycle on its own, so it requires something like Thought Reflection or a massive hand size to be broken.
I'm excited for the update, especially with the awesome new Miracle Wheel of Fortune (and even Loothouse).
With Return to Ravnica around the corner, I'm definitely hoping for an update in the near future.
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EDH > All other formats
Decks:
EDH:
BWG Angels of Afterlife - Karador, Ghost Chieftain GWB
Thoughts Aflame - Melek, Izzet Paragon
BWU Mother Machine - Sydri, Galvanic Genius UWB
Modern:
U Mono-U TronU
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon, the Destroyer of Darksteel
BGW Teneb, the Harvester, my Pimped Out Reanimator
GUB The Mimeoplasm Ooze-Mill
GWU Rafiq the Exalted
Just wondering if you are still actively piloting ole Niv?
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
This list hasn't been updated since 2012. I originally took this list and played it, slowly making replacements until I ended up with what I have now. I would consider my list (the official primer in sig) to be the more evolved version and includes cards from the most recent sets.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
At any rate, I plan to be making more updates in the coming weeks. Nothing too huge as I feel the core deck experience is pretty much finalized, but there will be testing of many of the fun and exciting new cards we've seen in the last year or so! I realize that the original post is now quite out-dated, so I plan to tweak that to reflect the changes I'll be making.
Cards I'm currently considering adding:
Cards I'm likely pulling:
Cards I'm likely NOT adding:
Let me know what works for you!! I've had very little time for Magic recently, so I'm excited to hear how things are going for all of you and I'm very open to suggestions.
EDIT: Reading through the OP, I'm realizing JUST how outdated it is - I'm so sorry! I'll get to it soon. Thanks everyone!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Looking over your list, the land base really does look like it's weakest link. Even with all the mana rocks in the deck playing a few more lands would really help the deck a lot.
- It might be due to financial reasons, but is there some other specific reason why you aren't running more fetchlands (every two colour combination can sport up to seven)? Scroll Rack's effectiveness improves by a significant margin with each additonal shuffle effect, and these don't even take up spell slots.
- Two lands that you could find especially useful are Seat of the Synod and Great Furnace. Having those adds a new dimension of versatility to some of the cards you are already playing (Trinket Mage, Fabricate, Tezzeret the Seeker). Sure, some times they might fall to enemy action but it's still worth it.
In short, there is a lot of space for fine-tuning and improvement when it comes to the mana base. I hope some of these suggestions have been helpful.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Seat of the Synod and Great Furnace used to be here, but were cut as they were easy to target and could cripple the deck's momentum. I NEVER found myself searching for them (Top / Sol Ring are a much bigger priority, and late game I have better things to spend mana on to be worth the early-game risk), so I didn't see the benefit - they also die to Ruination, Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, etc., which people may target knowing you're heavy in blue with counters. I do have a few other mana stones, but didn't want to give them even more targets (not to mention Shatterstorm)
Right now, there are a few potential cuts due to lack of synergy:
Ral Zarek
Chaos Warp
Twincast (already gone in the paper deck, actually)
Show and Tell (this deck is not about a fast win - never found myself wanting to use it)
Omniscience
Past in Flames
Ghost Quarter
Ghost Quarter will likely be replaced by an island, but I'm not planning to up the land count at the moment. In playtesting, the curve is actually quite nice as it stands - it's already at 36 lands, with a few rocks on the side, so it curves out fairly nicely (not fast enough for competitive 1v1... but that's not what it's for!).
The updates will continue, both with the list and the primer (I'm only about halfway through writing, so lots to come!). I'll let all of you know how things are working soon - thanks for the continued interest!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
URNiv-Mizzet the Firemind
WUBRGSliver Queen leads the Planewalkers
Enjoy and best of luck!
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
Hi Cronopio, I'm not really worried about enemy clones at all, for a variety of reasons:
a) The cloned Niv-Mizzet is still vulnerable to damage, so we can simply ping it to death. If Niv is already on the field, we are already drawing two cards per turn and only need to find a way to draw two more (and there are many ways to do this!). So, simply dealing 4 damage is the fastest and easiest solution to the clone.
b) Niv-Mizzet likely wouldn't be targetted by clones for this reason - he is actually quite fragile without the right protection, and the opponent would have little reason to want their own copy, especially when we can ping it to death. Plus, there are so many better options in a multiplayer game - your opponents will likely favor other creatures with immediate board presence or ETB effects, rather than hoping their copy of Niv would stick around (and we wouldn't let that happen!!!)
c) Assuming worst-case-scenario symmetric drawing, our Niv-Mizzets would likely kill each other (or at least, I would certainly target theirs - and the correct play on their part would be to target mine). In this case, we can recast Niv-Mizzet and simply use him again.
d) Our deck is designed to abuse the handcycling ability through cards like Thought Reflection and Consecrated Sphinx, where we are hopefully drawing more than our opponents. In most cases, I wouldn't think about trying to combo off without something like these to break the symmetry, so there would be virtually no risk in killing ourselves. The key here is that WE control when the hands recycle - and we simply need to solve other Niv-Mizzets before comboing off.
e) Niv-Mizzet should generally be cast the turn you combo off, or at an opponent's End-of-Turn directly before your untap phase (via flashing him in). This leaves a very small window (if any window) for opponents to even attempt to clone him, so ideally it won't even be a concern to begin with.
In a horrible, cruel world, we may find an opponent with a Consecrated Sphinx of their own, and (somehow) a hexproof, indestructible clone of Niv-Mizzet. That'd be tough to solve. But even then, we have an out in Cyclonic Rift, and then countering the clone the second time around.
I'm not too worried
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
EDIT: why do you use izzet boilerworks? doesn't it set you back a turn?
RUGRiku of Two Reflections
Constructed
UJace's ErasureMill
Reading "Archetype Overview & "Making Friends" made me want to track you, find you, and hug you simply for understanding how combo should be played in multiplayer EDH. Thank you sir. I'm not certain if you're intending to make this an official primer, but I think you should. It's really well written and your message must be spread across the lands of internetium.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
I collect pre-release Stone-Tongue Basilisk
I think there are a few big differences between our decks:
1. Your deck is designed for a strong late game while mine is trying to win as quickly as possible. The reason I've included monstrous cards like Show and Tell is because it seems like as soon as my playgroup realizes what my deck is capable of (despite all my diplomacy and holding back) they will try to hate me out early pretty much every time. As a result, the deck has become more and more competitive. I refuse to go the other way and dumb down the deck. But, I almost never use Curiosity or Ophidian Eye anymore and may take at least one of them out. This issue has really been a problem. I love this deck, but a lot of others hate it!
2. You've chosen a top deck toolboxing subtheme where I've chosen a gambit of mini-handcycling cards like Faithless Looting and Frantic Search. Future Sight and The Top are the most noteworthy cards missing from my list. I suppose I just prefer instant and sorcery spells over permanents. Maybe not the best argument, but it's worked okay for me. With Thought Reflection on board the cheapies are pretty killer and really help fix a bad opening hand with very little mana.
3. You run about twice as many hard counters than me. I guess I've just devoted more spots to ramp and draw. Sometimes I wish I had more answers but often, the counters are dead draws for me.
4. You've included 2 planeswalkers, both of which I've tried and taken out. I find I just can't protect them for the long hull and end up paying a lot of mana for a tiny effect. Not to say they are bad, but I just don't have enough of my own creatures to defend them against creature based decks.
Omniscience seems slightly redundant with Dream Halls in the deck. I would always rather have the latter in my opening hand bc of the cheaper cost. As much as possible I like my cards to be useful both early and late. Then again, I am trying to play a quicker game than you are.
Izzet Boilerworks is just a crappy land. Why not try Cephalid Coliseum? That much draw in one land is pretty nice.
Crystal Ball just seems lack luster.
Although it's currently not maindecked in my primer, All is Dust has been amazing for me and I think I will indeed maindeck it. Don't underestimate the superiority of "sacrifice" over "destroy". Also, since you don't have Chaos Warp it's a good answer for things like Iona, Shield of Emeria and other annoying stuff. Consider testing it out in place of one of the more sub par counters.
If you can afford it, I would swap out Acquire for either a Chrome Mox or a Mox Diamond. When you have a huge hand, no open mana, and no reliquary tower, you will thank me!
Elixir of Immortality just doesn't justify a spot IMO. It doesn't have enough of an effect on the game state. I'd run Diminishing Returns over it any day. More handcycling, and you get the shuffle effect. Yes, there are two problems with it: the exiling your top ten bit and the "...up to seven cards..." bit. But it's a Timetwister for one more U and costs $700 less!
I think it's a bit silly not to include Reliquary Tower. You've said that holding 20-30 cards in hand is pointless, but what about Winds of Change or Mindmoil? Don't you want to maximize damage with those cards? Often you can't make full use of your hand until your next turn anyway. Also, discarding is annoying!
Recurring Insight has played surprisingly well for me. I'm not dead set on its inclusion, but drawing 14 cards with 4UU is pretty nice. Often, it's a lot more with my copy spells and is rarely less because I keep everyone's hands full with the draw sevens. A good casting of Insight often leads to a win pretty quickly for me, because I can follow up with a Winds of Change or Dream Halls and just go crazy.
FYI, Dream Halls + Mindmoil is semi infinite handcycling. Do you just choose never to win with that combo?
Wishing you the best man, take care!
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
Sensei's Divining Top is just ridiculously powerful so I swapped it for Ponder. I'd also really like to find space for Future Sight.
Something that has quickly become a little subtheme of my deck is graveyard recursion. I'm just going to copy that section of my primer for you:
GRAVEYARD RECURSION
I think there's still some fat to trim on my deck. I'd really like to make room for Time Reversal and Tolarian Winds as well as at least one maybe two more counters. Foil, Flusterstorm, Memory Lapse, Negate, and even Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast are on my watchlist. Venser, Shaper Savant would be nice edition to my Riptide Laboratory/Evacuation toolbox.
MY PRIMER ON NIV-MIZZET, THE FIREMIND, MY CUSTOM CARDS ON DEVIANTART
My other decks:
Kaalia of the Vast: Certified Air Raid Material
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher: NOM NOM NOM!
Aurelia, the Warleader: Warclamp
I am glad this thread has been so helpful to so many, and I hope it continues to be a great resource for Commander deckbuilders the world around!
As an addition to the recent overhaul, I've also created a dedicated email address for answering questions, hearing your comments/concerns, and in general, opening lines to the community. Feel free to email me anytime with questions or concerns. That said, as a courtesy, I would ask that you also post your questions / comments here so I can respond to them publically for the benefit of everyone.
Thanks for the continued support!
Rowan - to address your above comments:
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R