It's probably meta-dependent, but cards I would cut are: Greater Auramancy - You only play 8 cards it protects and is a do-nothing-card the rest of the time. Since match winner Darkest Hour is only one mana you can usually keep it in hand until the turn you want to combo off. Cataclysm - This hurts you too much, I think, especially since you are not in ramp colors. If this is to answer planeswalkers, try Merciless Eviction instead Plea for Guidance - You run enough good tutors already, so you don't need this clunky card Skirsdag High Priest - It's cute, but the pay off isn't good enough for board presence it demands Ogre Slumlord - too expensive mana-wise for what it does (as is Extractor Demon, if you ask me)
-snip-
This guy seems pretty decent at making mana, a bit pricy at 4, and more vurnable than Carnival of souls, but soooo much safer.
Pitiless Plunderer seems absolutely disgusting... in the all the best ways. He turns all sac-outlets into better versions of Phyrexian Altar, and him being a black creature is kinda nice, too.
Also, I have now completed posting and writing up my version of Teysa - Life Gain/Drain (Primer?), so it'd be great if any of you wanted to check it out. Feel free to comment about anything at all.
-snip-
This guy seems pretty decent at making mana, a bit pricy at 4, and more vurnable than Carnival of souls, but soooo much safer.
Pitiless Plunderer seems absolutely disgusting... in the all the best ways. He turns all sac-outlets into better versions of Phyrexian Altar, and him being a black creature is kinda nice, too.
Also, I have now completed posting and writing up my version of Teysa - Life Gain/Drain (Primer?), so it'd be great if any of you wanted to check it out. Feel free to comment about anything at all.
Looking over the list, I feel like Ayli is a pretty big omission: it looks like you'd be gaining enough life to have her second ability active a lot of the time, and have fodder to sacrifice to it.
Also, how come you aren't running tutors or much reanimation? What does Panharmonicon do for you? I only see a few cards in your list that it really interacts with.
-snip-
This guy seems pretty decent at making mana, a bit pricy at 4, and more vurnable than Carnival of souls, but soooo much safer.
Pitiless Plunderer seems absolutely disgusting... in the all the best ways. He turns all sac-outlets into better versions of Phyrexian Altar, and him being a black creature is kinda nice, too.
Also, I have now completed posting and writing up my version of Teysa - Life Gain/Drain (Primer?), so it'd be great if any of you wanted to check it out. Feel free to comment about anything at all.
Looking over the list, I feel like Ayli is a pretty big omission: it looks like you'd be gaining enough life to have her second ability active a lot of the time, and have fodder to sacrifice to it.
Also, how come you aren't running tutors or much reanimation? What does Panharmonicon do for you? I only see a few cards in your list that it really interacts with.
Thanks for the interest and asking questions!
I will try to answer your questions in order:
1. Ayli - Basically, when she is active we are winning anyway, and once this deck is winning, the game is usually about over. There just aren't any noncreature permanents that ruin my day enough to need more. (Teysa is great at removing any creature problems easily.)
2. Tutors - This is covered in my "Deckbuilding Philosophy" section of the primer, but basically, I don't like running tutors in decks that have at least one infinite combo in it. It just sort of ruins it for me and my playgroup. That is also why the deck runs many, many redundant pieces.
3. Reanimation - This deck has become less creature heavy as I've updated it, and thus reanimation has become weaker. Also, with the amount of pieces I am tying to assemble (without tutors) I need to include more pieces to somewhat consistently achieve the "end game", and reanimation just gets cut for not adding to that. I did have a heavy reanimation version of Teysa that actually ended up being too good most of the time, so I turned it into this. Also, this is generally more fun.
3. Panharmonicon - Panharmonicon (essentially) does what a lot of the permanents in this deck do. It doubles the amount of life you gain from Soul Sister effects. It also has the small added bonus of strong interactions with Gray Merchant, Ashen Rider, Grave Titan, etc. But the main idea is double life gain triggers.
I had gone a similar direction with my Teysa deck recently, dropping a lot of the more expensive, bomb-ier cards (with heavier reanimation) to focus on token production and synergy, and initially I was liking the change; however, in the last few games I've played I've felt like the individual cards are too weak, and if I get a little too much hate coming my way (repeatedly offing Teysa or removing my sac outlet), the deck just crumbles since I need two or more cards in play at any one time to be doing anything relevant.
Torment of Hailfire could also be a possibility with and infinite mana combo with the Darkest Hour/Teysa shenanigans (Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar)
5 Black Tokens for 4 mana, albeit over threes turns is a nice deal. The demon isn't probably the most useful, but it can just be sacked like all our creatures. I want to try it out, nut sure about what to cut yet.
5 Black Tokens for 4 mana, albeit over threes turns is a nice deal. The demon isn't probably the most useful, but it can just be sacked like all our creatures. I want to try it out, nut sure about what to cut yet.
My issue with using the Saga is that the deck has no real way of recurring it, whereas creatures that make tokens can be reused a time or three. Additionally, it doesn't combo with anything, again, since it's not a creature.
I haven't been through all the pages in this thread yet, but I haven't seen any mention of the combo between Leonin Relic-Warder and a reanimation enchantment like Animate Dead or Dance of the Dead. With a creature like Zulaport Cutthroat and a sac outlet it's an easy game over. With Razaketh, the Foulblooded it's tutor for whatever you want until you run out of life.
Thanks to WotC for printing so many redundant versions of Blood Artist/ Grave Pact/ and Dark Prophecy effects, I feel like the lower CMC/combo stax version of this deck has some real competitive legs.
I haven't been through all the pages in this thread yet, but I haven't seen any mention of the combo between Leonin Relic-Warder and a reanimation enchantment like Animate Dead or Dance of the Dead. With a creature like Zulaport Cutthroat and a sac outlet it's an easy game over. With Razaketh, the Foulblooded it's tutor for whatever you want until you run out of life.
Wow, I never thought of that interaction. But now that I think about it, I think you don't necessarily need a sac outlet to make this work. Say I cast Animate Dead targeting the Leonin Relic-Warder in your yard, it then enters the battlefield and you target Animate Dead with the Warders ETB trigger, trigger resolves and Animate Dead goes to exile triggering to sacrifice Leonin Relic-Warder, which when sacrificed triggers to bring back Animate Dead which then starts the loop again. I think this is how it should work.
You could however when Animate Dead leaves the battlefield and the sacrifice trigger goes on the stack, sacrifice the Leonin Relic-Warder to something like Ashnod's Altar in response to get CC. Then the Relic Warders LTB goes on the stack which brings back Animate Dead and you are left where you started, except that the sacrifice trigger from Animate Dead is still on the stack, which does not do anything since your Leonin Relic-Warder is a new object already. Pretty sure this is how it works
Nonetheless this is a great interaction I wasn't aware of, even though I play all the pieces in my deck and I considered myself an Aristocrats Veteran But hey, you never stop learning in Magic.
Thanks to WotC for printing so many redundant versions of Blood Artist/ Grave Pact/ and Dark Prophecy effects, I feel like the lower CMC/combo stax version of this deck has some real competitive legs.
Im also looking at Desecrated Tomb but I feel that it might be too cute
I'm running this deck religiously for many years now and it's always a blast to play with it, even after all these years. You can find my specific deck list here. There is an unfinished Primer on that tappedout page, which I definitely want to continue, but just didn't found the time to do so.
It's noteworthy that my list is more of a control-Aristorats deck, which is not optimized for combos, even though it has some in the deck. That stems from the fact, that I am not a fan of inifinte combos and cards that just go in the deck, solely to form a combo. When I stopped playing Teysa as a combo variant, the deck became way more robust, more fun to pilot and way stronger than it's combo variants. It's hard to avoid combos completely in aristocrat decks, simply because cards like Phyrexian Altar or Nim Deathmantle are just very good in the deck, even without going infinite. Anyway, feel free to check my list out if you feel so.
As for the current state of Teysa, Orzhov Scion in commander, I think the deck is in a good place and pretty competitive in 75% metas. Even though this deck did not nearly get as many new toys than some other commanders, it still got a few good ones. I started to build this deck in early 2016 and really began to play commander extensively when Kaldesh came out. I figuered as a Teysa lover I should contribute to this thread and give my opinion on a set by set basis on new cards for the deck since Kaladesh. I wanted to do it for a long time, but just now found the time to do so
Kaladesh
Overall I think Kaladesh was a pretty weak set for this deck, even though the powerlevel of the set itself was ridiculous. We got Concealed Courtyard as another manafixing land and many Teysa players wanted to make Aetherworks Marvel work. It works, I tried it as well, but I generally think it is too overkill and fragile. By the time you make this thing work consistently every turn, you could already do something more impactful. It's still a fine card and really great in an aristocrat deck.
Commander 2016
While being the best Commander Set since it's creation in my opinion, this set brought nothing in terms of new cards for aristocrats, besides Breya, Etherium Shaper, which can be a very, very good aristocrats commander with artifact synergy.
Aether Revolt
This set brought us Yahenni, Undying Partisan, if we need an additional sac outlet on a stick that also can gain indestructable. The better card from this set though is Hidden Stockpile. We can pretty much trigger this every turn without going through a big hassle. Every body counts for aristocrats and this has also an inbuild sac outlet. I'm generally very impressed with this card and have never put it out of the deck so far. It's like a hybrid between Bitterblossom and Viscera Seer, which both are fantastic cards for this deck.
Amonkhet
We got Anointed Procession which was considered a big breaktrough by Teysa players, as far as I know. I will say this much, if it sticks around it will win the game. The problem is that you have to spend 4 mana doing nothing and it can be destroyed before you even get use out of it. It's similar to Aetherworks Marvel in that it is a win more card. I tested it and for my meta it defintely was too slow, so I am not running it. I feel the deck is very fine creating enough bodys without it. In slower metas it's probably ruining other player's life.
Hour of Devastation
While being a homerun for me as a Nicol Bolas fan, nothing new for Teysa here.
Commander 2017
C17 gave us Vindictive Lich. I wouldn't say its a key card nor did it stuff holes that the deck might have, but it certainly is powerful in a strategy that can sac its dudes and recur them to do it all over again. We also got Teferi's Protection as a white good stuff card, but I don't see the need to run it in this deck.
Ixalan
Again, nothing to be gained from this set unfortunately. I tried Dowsing Dagger for some time in my list as a ramp card and it worked very well overall. But it's not really a specific Aristocrat card to be honest.
Rivals of Ixalan
This set brought us Pitiless Plunderer, which is an insane card for this playstyle. It helps to ramp by just doing your thing and it enables critical turns way sooner than normal. If you haven't tried this guy, give him a go. This set also gave us Elenda, the Dusk Rose which I heard good things about, but never actually tested. I think she is to slow at producing tokens and 4 drops should be kept at a minimum if you ask me.
Dominaria
The only card from Dominaria worth mentioning is Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. While not necessarily a typical Aristocrat card, the trigger is STRONG! So strong in fact that I tried her in my list where I have only 11 cards (including Teysa) that could trigger her, but still was positively surprised of how powerful she is. She is great for the critical turn where you want to win and having a free Unearth for casting your commander is gross.
Battlebond
Nothing of interest here.
M19
Militia Bugler and Open the Graves are cards the see play, but I think both of them are inferior to other choices we have.
Commander 2018
Nope, nothing.
Guilds of Ravnica
Plenty of stuff from Guilds to try out at least. I start with the strongest: Plaguecrafter is an upgraded Fleshbag Marauder and Midnight Reaper a variant on Grim Haruspex. Both see plenty of play and now we can add redundancy to the effect and/or replace them. Some more testing needs to happen, but I'm sure both of them will find a home in my list.
Gruesome Menagerie is another card that is very strong here, I still don't know though, what to cut and if I actually need it in my list. It's like a mini Living Death, but my problem is that I rather play the real thing and go for smaller recur effects in enchantment form like Animate Dead, because Sun Titan can recur them.
A card that hasn't been listed before is Mausoleum Secrets. I think it is at least worth a try. Instant speed tutor is great, there are plenty of high profile black targets in our deck and as soon as we have 3-5 creatures in the yard its online. Most lists have enough creatures to make it work I think, its just not an early game tutor, but could fetch your win cons. I will return once I gathered more experience with it.
Other than that I don't think there is anything noteworthy. Doom Whisperer just isn't the type of card for an aristocrat deck. Its flashy and big and most importantly NEW, but it will not earn a hall of fame spot for this deck. Same with Divine Visitation which is cute and overkill.
And there we have it. Rememeber, this is just my opinion on this deck and your goals for this deck might differ. I still hope this post helped and I will make sure to check by this thread more often now. I mean, we have the next set on the horizon and this time we get REAL Orzhov cards. I can't wait and hope we get new toys for this great commander and hopefully the Orzhov Guild Kit will have an alternate Art version of Teysa, Orzhov Scion. The original just does not come close to the newer Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts's fabulous artwork by Karla Ortiz.
You say there is nothing in battlebond.
But seem to me that Krav, the unredeemed and Regna, the redeemer have at least some interest.
They both fetch each other, one is a self buffing sac outlet that draw cards and give life and the other is a token generator that can trigger on ech opponent turns...
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''Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.''
You say there is nothing in battlebond.
But seem to me that Krav, the unredeemed and Regna, the redeemer have at least some interest.
They both fetch each other, one is a self buffing sac outlet that draw cards and give life and the other is a token generator that can trigger on ech opponent turns...
Well, I do agree that these two seem a fit for this type of strategy, as both literally do something that the deck wants. The problem however is their mana cost.
Krav, the unredeemed is a 5 drop that wants you to pay B to activate him so even one use out of him is 6 mana total. That is just not cost efficient, even with the life gain as an additional upside.
Regna, the redeemer is a 6 drop and you need to gain life and have her to be on the battlefield to get the white tokens. You might not be gaining life every turn in this deck though and if you just want the tokens there are certainly better options around. Elspeth, Sun's Champion would be way better, and even she is too expensive for what she does in my opinion.
I just think there is not enough room for 5+ drops in an aristocrat deck and these two just lack in terms of power and synergy compared to other choices. Even the fact that one tutors the other doesn't make it better. They're a nice gimmick if nothing else.
This archetype wants to chain spells together in the late game, so they should not be to expensive. The main focus of the mana curve should be 2 and 3 drops, so by turn 6 you can play multiples in a turn or have mana free for any sort of activation.
Ok, I am very new to this forum. I just created an account lol. But I've been using it as a resource for years. I mainly use Tappedout for my decklists so you can just find them there.
I've read the initial primer on the first page, but decided to go backwards in reading all of these 33 pages to get the consensus on the newer cards for Teysa.
SO, I'm not sure who's playing what type of build i.e stax, combo, tokens, value, etc, but I see a lot of the same and it's very confusing.
I understand why Grave titan might not be useful in many Teysa decks, but why do I keep seeing Sun titan excluded from many lists?
P.S. If anyone can help me figure out how to tag cards that would be appreciated.
Ok, I am very new to this forum. I just created an account lol. But I've been using it as a resource for years. I mainly use Tappedout for my decklists so you can just find them there.
I've read the initial primer on the first page, but decided to go backwards in reading all of these 33 pages to get the consensus on the newer cards for Teysa.
SO, I'm not sure who's playing what type of build i.e stax, combo, tokens, value, etc, but I see a lot of the same and it's very confusing.
I understand why Grave titan might not be useful in many Teysa decks, but why do I keep seeing Sun titan excluded from many lists?
P.S. If anyone can help me figure out how to tag cards that would be appreciated.
I think that's the beautiful thing about Teysa; she can be all of those things in one. It's part of the reason why I love her so much and why she was my go to deck for approximately 6 years.
As for the exclusion of Sun Titan, I'm not sure why you would exclude it. It's super powerful recursion that can grab an Ashnod's Altar in a pinch and is also a piece of several infinite combos. I'd highly recommend running one if you have it.
I agree! I do. Teysa was one of my first "all out" decks abouuuuttt 6 years ago when I first started playing. 1st ever - Kresh, then Exava, Lyzolda, Glissa, then Teysa. But Teysa got alll the good cards haha. The other decks kinda sucked. My Teysa was the "typical" super heavy combo deck because I just jammed every combo in there, excluding Sanguine + exquisite, cuz I don't really like that one personally. When I took her apart because every game felt the same, it hurt so much, but since then, whenever I've thought of building a new deck she always comes to mind. She can be so versatile. And you can build her any way you want. After I saw Anointed Procession the lights went off and I pulled the trigger to rebuild her. Now I've got about 65% of the deck built again, but with a different approach and it feels great, and the deck's not even done lol....So after a long paragraph, ya, I agree lol
Sun Titan - I ALSO agree. I wouldn't! And I'm not. It's already in my deck. But many of the lists I see here while looking back DON'T have Sun Titan and it baffles me. Exactly! I mean, if your curve is super low, it reads "pay 6 mana - recur any permanent from your grave", and when you attack do it again. If your curve is low it's basically a repeatable Obzedat's aid....That's why I'm so confused from not seeing it.
If you didn't wanna run the combos like Animate Dead, dance of the dead, necromancy, angelic renewal, gift of immortality, etc, which are pretty good on their own with Teysa, then I can see how it's not AS powerful, but imo that doesn't mean Sun Titan should get cut.
I agree! I do. Teysa was one of my first "all out" decks abouuuuttt 6 years ago when I first started playing. 1st ever - Kresh, then Exava, Lyzolda, Glissa, then Teysa. But Teysa got alll the good cards haha. The other decks kinda sucked. My Teysa was the "typical" super heavy combo deck because I just jammed every combo in there, excluding Sanguine + exquisite, cuz I don't really like that one personally. When I took her apart because every game felt the same, it hurt so much, but since then, whenever I've thought of building a new deck she always comes to mind. She can be so versatile. And you can build her any way you want. After I saw Anointed Procession the lights went off and I pulled the trigger to rebuild her. Now I've got about 65% of the deck built again, but with a different approach and it feels great, and the deck's not even done lol....So after a long paragraph, ya, I agree lol
Sun Titan - I ALSO agree. I wouldn't! And I'm not. It's already in my deck. But many of the lists I see here while looking back DON'T have Sun Titan and it baffles me. Exactly! I mean, if your curve is super low, it reads "pay 6 mana - recur any permanent from your grave", and when you attack do it again. If your curve is low it's basically a repeatable Obzedat's aid....That's why I'm so confused from not seeing it.
If you didn't wanna run the combos like Animate Dead, dance of the dead, necromancy, angelic renewal, gift of immortality, etc, which are pretty good on their own with Teysa, then I can see how it's not AS powerful, but imo that doesn't mean Sun Titan should get cut.
But what makes Sun Titan better is that he can even recur your key artifacts (Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar). The enchantments you included are only creatures, but I think they should be ran WITH Sun Titan since they can create an infinite loop with him, one of the enchantments and one of the Altars used as a sac outlet.
I agree! I do. Teysa was one of my first "all out" decks abouuuuttt 6 years ago when I first started playing. 1st ever - Kresh, then Exava, Lyzolda, Glissa, then Teysa. But Teysa got alll the good cards haha. The other decks kinda sucked. My Teysa was the "typical" super heavy combo deck because I just jammed every combo in there, excluding Sanguine + exquisite, cuz I don't really like that one personally. When I took her apart because every game felt the same, it hurt so much, but since then, whenever I've thought of building a new deck she always comes to mind. She can be so versatile. And you can build her any way you want. After I saw Anointed Procession the lights went off and I pulled the trigger to rebuild her. Now I've got about 65% of the deck built again, but with a different approach and it feels great, and the deck's not even done lol....So after a long paragraph, ya, I agree lol
Sun Titan - I ALSO agree. I wouldn't! And I'm not. It's already in my deck. But many of the lists I see here while looking back DON'T have Sun Titan and it baffles me. Exactly! I mean, if your curve is super low, it reads "pay 6 mana - recur any permanent from your grave", and when you attack do it again. If your curve is low it's basically a repeatable Obzedat's aid....That's why I'm so confused from not seeing it.
If you didn't wanna run the combos like Animate Dead, dance of the dead, necromancy, angelic renewal, gift of immortality, etc, which are pretty good on their own with Teysa, then I can see how it's not AS powerful, but imo that doesn't mean Sun Titan should get cut.
But what makes Sun Titan better is that he can even recur your key artifacts (Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar). The enchantments you included are only creatures, but I think they should be ran WITH Sun Titan since they can create an infinite loop with him, one of the enchantments and one of the Altars used as a sac outlet.
Oh yeah! Exactly! And if you're running the super easy to combo with "Darkest Hour", then Sun Titan gets that back too! Aside from the combo pieces or other super OP artifacts, he can just get you so much card advantage, he can get whichever cards back that you may need to just win the game. You can get back your Mentor of the meek (which IS actually a combo piece if you have certain cards in your deck), Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, SKULLCLAMP, Scrollrack, Land tax, Necropotence, Phyrexian Arena, Dark Prophecy, Nim deathmantle...the list can go on. I mean, in my current unfinished Teysa list of 53 cards (47 if you don't count the lands), Sun Titan can get back 26 out of those 47 cards...and the current list I'm building has a higher curve than what I used to run with Teysa. So imagine if you kept the curve super low? Yeah. Sun Titan seems like he belongs in every Teysa list, but I understand people have their reasons..I'm just curious what those reasons ARE for excluding him.
@NZB2323 Those cards seem pretty good.
I don't have any of the grave pact effects currently in my list, but I'm def gonna put 1 or 2. Had an interesting conversation with Fektoer about a week ago on Tappedout regarding the grave pact effects and why he chose Dictate over Grave Pact, etc etc. I would def check out his list if you get a chance. I'm taking a good amount of his list into consideration for my own list.
Diabolic Intent used to be a Power-House when I ran super heavy combo back in the day, so it's a good budget option if you don't want to get a Demonic Tutor or Vamp Tutor. Is it still as good today? I'm not sure. Probably. Especially if you have a grave pact effect out. 2 mana tutor and everyone sacs something seems pretty good. BUT it can just set you back in some cases..I've had many games where I drew Diabolic Intent with only Teysa + 1 other (non-black) creature out, needed a combo piece to win, but also Needed that creature to win the game, and then the feel bads came in lol
As for Ayli and Starlit Sanctum...I have a bit of bias..I've never been a big fan of life gain in EDH. It always seems to me like a minimal advantage when the mana could be going into advancing your board state or straight out winning you the game. That "Cleric" text on Starlit Sanctum could potentially force you to run more clerics than you otherwise would thus lowering the power level of your deck by playing cards that don't synergize well with her, but I could be wrong. As for Ayli's exile clause...again, I've never been a fan of situational cards. It might work the first time, but once everyone knows you need 50 or more life then they'll keep you from getting that ability...plus Teysa has a built-in exile ability. That's just my opinion on those cards though. Try them out, see how they work, and let us know
Good evening everyone!!! I just wanted to make a mention here that the new Ravnica set may potentially be a HUGE boost to this deck. The new mechanic “Afterlife X” creates a White AND “Black” spirit token. At worst, without our commander, we get another spirit out of killing our guys. At best, with our commander, we get 2 spirits if the Afterlife creature is Black and another 2 from the token dying. The amount of value from that alone is insane!!!
Hoping that we’ll be seeing some decent low cmc Afterlife creatures if for nothing else get more value out of Teysa’s already insane ability. HYYYYYPE!!!
Current list is located here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/teysa-karlov-scion-of-orzhov/
Cards I think I want to add:
Anointed Procession
Mentor of the Meek
Extractor Demon
Razaketh, the Foulblooded
Tymna the Weaver
Thran Dynamo or Legion's Landing potentially for a land
Sword of Fire and Ice
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
It's probably meta-dependent, but cards I would cut are:
Greater Auramancy - You only play 8 cards it protects and is a do-nothing-card the rest of the time. Since match winner Darkest Hour is only one mana you can usually keep it in hand until the turn you want to combo off.
Cataclysm - This hurts you too much, I think, especially since you are not in ramp colors. If this is to answer planeswalkers, try Merciless Eviction instead
Plea for Guidance - You run enough good tutors already, so you don't need this clunky card
Skirsdag High Priest - It's cute, but the pay off isn't good enough for board presence it demands
Ogre Slumlord - too expensive mana-wise for what it does (as is Extractor Demon, if you ask me)
This guy seems pretty decent at making mana, a bit pricy at 4, and more vurnable than Carnival of souls, but soooo much safer.
Id that!
Trade with me, h:Alters and EdhFoils:)
Cards I have altered
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/rivals-of-ixalan/33709-elenda-the-dusk-rose
Death & Taxes
Fish
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Xenagos, God of Revels
Pitiless Plunderer seems absolutely disgusting... in the all the best ways. He turns all sac-outlets into better versions of Phyrexian Altar, and him being a black creature is kinda nice, too.
Also, I have now completed posting and writing up my version of Teysa - Life Gain/Drain (Primer?), so it'd be great if any of you wanted to check it out. Feel free to comment about anything at all.
Teysa at MTGS Deckbuider
Teysa at MTGS Forums
Teysa at TappedOut.net
Looking over the list, I feel like Ayli is a pretty big omission: it looks like you'd be gaining enough life to have her second ability active a lot of the time, and have fodder to sacrifice to it.
Also, how come you aren't running tutors or much reanimation? What does Panharmonicon do for you? I only see a few cards in your list that it really interacts with.
Thanks for the interest and asking questions!
I will try to answer your questions in order:
1. Ayli - Basically, when she is active we are winning anyway, and once this deck is winning, the game is usually about over. There just aren't any noncreature permanents that ruin my day enough to need more. (Teysa is great at removing any creature problems easily.)
2. Tutors - This is covered in my "Deckbuilding Philosophy" section of the primer, but basically, I don't like running tutors in decks that have at least one infinite combo in it. It just sort of ruins it for me and my playgroup. That is also why the deck runs many, many redundant pieces.
3. Reanimation - This deck has become less creature heavy as I've updated it, and thus reanimation has become weaker. Also, with the amount of pieces I am tying to assemble (without tutors) I need to include more pieces to somewhat consistently achieve the "end game", and reanimation just gets cut for not adding to that. I did have a heavy reanimation version of Teysa that actually ended up being too good most of the time, so I turned it into this. Also, this is generally more fun.
3. Panharmonicon - Panharmonicon (essentially) does what a lot of the permanents in this deck do. It doubles the amount of life you gain from Soul Sister effects. It also has the small added bonus of strong interactions with Gray Merchant, Ashen Rider, Grave Titan, etc. But the main idea is double life gain triggers.
Have you experienced this at all?
5 Black Tokens for 4 mana, albeit over threes turns is a nice deal. The demon isn't probably the most useful, but it can just be sacked like all our creatures. I want to try it out, nut sure about what to cut yet.
My issue with using the Saga is that the deck has no real way of recurring it, whereas creatures that make tokens can be reused a time or three. Additionally, it doesn't combo with anything, again, since it's not a creature.
Thanks to WotC for printing so many redundant versions of Blood Artist/ Grave Pact/ and Dark Prophecy effects, I feel like the lower CMC/combo stax version of this deck has some real competitive legs.
Some cards from recent sets I'm really loving for this deck are Midnight Reaper, Open the Graves, Gruesome Menagerie, and Doom Whisperer
Im also looking at Desecrated Tomb but I feel that it might be too cute
Wow, I never thought of that interaction. But now that I think about it, I think you don't necessarily need a sac outlet to make this work. Say I cast Animate Dead targeting the Leonin Relic-Warder in your yard, it then enters the battlefield and you target Animate Dead with the Warders ETB trigger, trigger resolves and Animate Dead goes to exile triggering to sacrifice Leonin Relic-Warder, which when sacrificed triggers to bring back Animate Dead which then starts the loop again. I think this is how it should work.
You could however when Animate Dead leaves the battlefield and the sacrifice trigger goes on the stack, sacrifice the Leonin Relic-Warder to something like Ashnod's Altar in response to get CC. Then the Relic Warders LTB goes on the stack which brings back Animate Dead and you are left where you started, except that the sacrifice trigger from Animate Dead is still on the stack, which does not do anything since your Leonin Relic-Warder is a new object already. Pretty sure this is how it works
Nonetheless this is a great interaction I wasn't aware of, even though I play all the pieces in my deck and I considered myself an Aristocrats Veteran But hey, you never stop learning in Magic.
I'm running this deck religiously for many years now and it's always a blast to play with it, even after all these years. You can find my specific deck list here. There is an unfinished Primer on that tappedout page, which I definitely want to continue, but just didn't found the time to do so.
It's noteworthy that my list is more of a control-Aristorats deck, which is not optimized for combos, even though it has some in the deck. That stems from the fact, that I am not a fan of inifinte combos and cards that just go in the deck, solely to form a combo. When I stopped playing Teysa as a combo variant, the deck became way more robust, more fun to pilot and way stronger than it's combo variants. It's hard to avoid combos completely in aristocrat decks, simply because cards like Phyrexian Altar or Nim Deathmantle are just very good in the deck, even without going infinite. Anyway, feel free to check my list out if you feel so.
As for the current state of Teysa, Orzhov Scion in commander, I think the deck is in a good place and pretty competitive in 75% metas. Even though this deck did not nearly get as many new toys than some other commanders, it still got a few good ones. I started to build this deck in early 2016 and really began to play commander extensively when Kaldesh came out. I figuered as a Teysa lover I should contribute to this thread and give my opinion on a set by set basis on new cards for the deck since Kaladesh. I wanted to do it for a long time, but just now found the time to do so
Kaladesh
Overall I think Kaladesh was a pretty weak set for this deck, even though the powerlevel of the set itself was ridiculous. We got Concealed Courtyard as another manafixing land and many Teysa players wanted to make Aetherworks Marvel work. It works, I tried it as well, but I generally think it is too overkill and fragile. By the time you make this thing work consistently every turn, you could already do something more impactful. It's still a fine card and really great in an aristocrat deck.
Commander 2016
While being the best Commander Set since it's creation in my opinion, this set brought nothing in terms of new cards for aristocrats, besides Breya, Etherium Shaper, which can be a very, very good aristocrats commander with artifact synergy.
Aether Revolt
This set brought us Yahenni, Undying Partisan, if we need an additional sac outlet on a stick that also can gain indestructable. The better card from this set though is Hidden Stockpile. We can pretty much trigger this every turn without going through a big hassle. Every body counts for aristocrats and this has also an inbuild sac outlet. I'm generally very impressed with this card and have never put it out of the deck so far. It's like a hybrid between Bitterblossom and Viscera Seer, which both are fantastic cards for this deck.
Amonkhet
We got Anointed Procession which was considered a big breaktrough by Teysa players, as far as I know. I will say this much, if it sticks around it will win the game. The problem is that you have to spend 4 mana doing nothing and it can be destroyed before you even get use out of it. It's similar to Aetherworks Marvel in that it is a win more card. I tested it and for my meta it defintely was too slow, so I am not running it. I feel the deck is very fine creating enough bodys without it. In slower metas it's probably ruining other player's life.
Hour of Devastation
While being a homerun for me as a Nicol Bolas fan, nothing new for Teysa here.
Commander 2017
C17 gave us Vindictive Lich. I wouldn't say its a key card nor did it stuff holes that the deck might have, but it certainly is powerful in a strategy that can sac its dudes and recur them to do it all over again. We also got Teferi's Protection as a white good stuff card, but I don't see the need to run it in this deck.
Ixalan
Again, nothing to be gained from this set unfortunately. I tried Dowsing Dagger for some time in my list as a ramp card and it worked very well overall. But it's not really a specific Aristocrat card to be honest.
Rivals of Ixalan
This set brought us Pitiless Plunderer, which is an insane card for this playstyle. It helps to ramp by just doing your thing and it enables critical turns way sooner than normal. If you haven't tried this guy, give him a go. This set also gave us Elenda, the Dusk Rose which I heard good things about, but never actually tested. I think she is to slow at producing tokens and 4 drops should be kept at a minimum if you ask me.
Dominaria
The only card from Dominaria worth mentioning is Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle. While not necessarily a typical Aristocrat card, the trigger is STRONG! So strong in fact that I tried her in my list where I have only 11 cards (including Teysa) that could trigger her, but still was positively surprised of how powerful she is. She is great for the critical turn where you want to win and having a free Unearth for casting your commander is gross.
Battlebond
Nothing of interest here.
M19
Militia Bugler and Open the Graves are cards the see play, but I think both of them are inferior to other choices we have.
Commander 2018
Nope, nothing.
Guilds of Ravnica
Plenty of stuff from Guilds to try out at least. I start with the strongest: Plaguecrafter is an upgraded Fleshbag Marauder and Midnight Reaper a variant on Grim Haruspex. Both see plenty of play and now we can add redundancy to the effect and/or replace them. Some more testing needs to happen, but I'm sure both of them will find a home in my list.
Gruesome Menagerie is another card that is very strong here, I still don't know though, what to cut and if I actually need it in my list. It's like a mini Living Death, but my problem is that I rather play the real thing and go for smaller recur effects in enchantment form like Animate Dead, because Sun Titan can recur them.
A card that hasn't been listed before is Mausoleum Secrets. I think it is at least worth a try. Instant speed tutor is great, there are plenty of high profile black targets in our deck and as soon as we have 3-5 creatures in the yard its online. Most lists have enough creatures to make it work I think, its just not an early game tutor, but could fetch your win cons. I will return once I gathered more experience with it.
Other than that I don't think there is anything noteworthy. Doom Whisperer just isn't the type of card for an aristocrat deck. Its flashy and big and most importantly NEW, but it will not earn a hall of fame spot for this deck. Same with Divine Visitation which is cute and overkill.
And there we have it. Rememeber, this is just my opinion on this deck and your goals for this deck might differ. I still hope this post helped and I will make sure to check by this thread more often now. I mean, we have the next set on the horizon and this time we get REAL Orzhov cards. I can't wait and hope we get new toys for this great commander and hopefully the Orzhov Guild Kit will have an alternate Art version of Teysa, Orzhov Scion. The original just does not come close to the newer Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts's fabulous artwork by Karla Ortiz.
SubstaX
But seem to me that Krav, the unredeemed and Regna, the redeemer have at least some interest.
They both fetch each other, one is a self buffing sac outlet that draw cards and give life and the other is a token generator that can trigger on ech opponent turns...
Well, I do agree that these two seem a fit for this type of strategy, as both literally do something that the deck wants. The problem however is their mana cost.
Krav, the unredeemed is a 5 drop that wants you to pay B to activate him so even one use out of him is 6 mana total. That is just not cost efficient, even with the life gain as an additional upside.
Regna, the redeemer is a 6 drop and you need to gain life and have her to be on the battlefield to get the white tokens. You might not be gaining life every turn in this deck though and if you just want the tokens there are certainly better options around. Elspeth, Sun's Champion would be way better, and even she is too expensive for what she does in my opinion.
Additionally both of them can't be tutored by Recruiter of the Guard and can not be reanimated with Reveillark nor Sun Titan.
I just think there is not enough room for 5+ drops in an aristocrat deck and these two just lack in terms of power and synergy compared to other choices. Even the fact that one tutors the other doesn't make it better. They're a nice gimmick if nothing else.
This archetype wants to chain spells together in the late game, so they should not be to expensive. The main focus of the mana curve should be 2 and 3 drops, so by turn 6 you can play multiples in a turn or have mana free for any sort of activation.
Just thought they worth beeing mentioned.
I've read the initial primer on the first page, but decided to go backwards in reading all of these 33 pages to get the consensus on the newer cards for Teysa.
SO, I'm not sure who's playing what type of build i.e stax, combo, tokens, value, etc, but I see a lot of the same and it's very confusing.
I understand why Grave titan might not be useful in many Teysa decks, but why do I keep seeing Sun titan excluded from many lists?
P.S. If anyone can help me figure out how to tag cards that would be appreciated.
I also make YouTube videos at https://www.youtube.com/WunderlichDrums
I think that's the beautiful thing about Teysa; she can be all of those things in one. It's part of the reason why I love her so much and why she was my go to deck for approximately 6 years.
As for the exclusion of Sun Titan, I'm not sure why you would exclude it. It's super powerful recursion that can grab an Ashnod's Altar in a pinch and is also a piece of several infinite combos. I'd highly recommend running one if you have it.
I agree! I do. Teysa was one of my first "all out" decks abouuuuttt 6 years ago when I first started playing. 1st ever - Kresh, then Exava, Lyzolda, Glissa, then Teysa. But Teysa got alll the good cards haha. The other decks kinda sucked. My Teysa was the "typical" super heavy combo deck because I just jammed every combo in there, excluding Sanguine + exquisite, cuz I don't really like that one personally. When I took her apart because every game felt the same, it hurt so much, but since then, whenever I've thought of building a new deck she always comes to mind. She can be so versatile. And you can build her any way you want. After I saw Anointed Procession the lights went off and I pulled the trigger to rebuild her. Now I've got about 65% of the deck built again, but with a different approach and it feels great, and the deck's not even done lol....So after a long paragraph, ya, I agree lol
Sun Titan - I ALSO agree. I wouldn't! And I'm not. It's already in my deck. But many of the lists I see here while looking back DON'T have Sun Titan and it baffles me. Exactly! I mean, if your curve is super low, it reads "pay 6 mana - recur any permanent from your grave", and when you attack do it again. If your curve is low it's basically a repeatable Obzedat's aid....That's why I'm so confused from not seeing it.
If you didn't wanna run the combos like Animate Dead, dance of the dead, necromancy, angelic renewal, gift of immortality, etc, which are pretty good on their own with Teysa, then I can see how it's not AS powerful, but imo that doesn't mean Sun Titan should get cut.
I also make YouTube videos at https://www.youtube.com/WunderlichDrums
But what makes Sun Titan better is that he can even recur your key artifacts (Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar). The enchantments you included are only creatures, but I think they should be ran WITH Sun Titan since they can create an infinite loop with him, one of the enchantments and one of the Altars used as a sac outlet.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Oh yeah! Exactly! And if you're running the super easy to combo with "Darkest Hour", then Sun Titan gets that back too! Aside from the combo pieces or other super OP artifacts, he can just get you so much card advantage, he can get whichever cards back that you may need to just win the game. You can get back your Mentor of the meek (which IS actually a combo piece if you have certain cards in your deck), Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, SKULLCLAMP, Scrollrack, Land tax, Necropotence, Phyrexian Arena, Dark Prophecy, Nim deathmantle...the list can go on. I mean, in my current unfinished Teysa list of 53 cards (47 if you don't count the lands), Sun Titan can get back 26 out of those 47 cards...and the current list I'm building has a higher curve than what I used to run with Teysa. So imagine if you kept the curve super low? Yeah. Sun Titan seems like he belongs in every Teysa list, but I understand people have their reasons..I'm just curious what those reasons ARE for excluding him.
@NZB2323 Those cards seem pretty good.
I don't have any of the grave pact effects currently in my list, but I'm def gonna put 1 or 2. Had an interesting conversation with Fektoer about a week ago on Tappedout regarding the grave pact effects and why he chose Dictate over Grave Pact, etc etc. I would def check out his list if you get a chance. I'm taking a good amount of his list into consideration for my own list.
Diabolic Intent used to be a Power-House when I ran super heavy combo back in the day, so it's a good budget option if you don't want to get a Demonic Tutor or Vamp Tutor. Is it still as good today? I'm not sure. Probably. Especially if you have a grave pact effect out. 2 mana tutor and everyone sacs something seems pretty good. BUT it can just set you back in some cases..I've had many games where I drew Diabolic Intent with only Teysa + 1 other (non-black) creature out, needed a combo piece to win, but also Needed that creature to win the game, and then the feel bads came in lol
As for Ayli and Starlit Sanctum...I have a bit of bias..I've never been a big fan of life gain in EDH. It always seems to me like a minimal advantage when the mana could be going into advancing your board state or straight out winning you the game. That "Cleric" text on Starlit Sanctum could potentially force you to run more clerics than you otherwise would thus lowering the power level of your deck by playing cards that don't synergize well with her, but I could be wrong. As for Ayli's exile clause...again, I've never been a fan of situational cards. It might work the first time, but once everyone knows you need 50 or more life then they'll keep you from getting that ability...plus Teysa has a built-in exile ability. That's just my opinion on those cards though. Try them out, see how they work, and let us know
I also make YouTube videos at https://www.youtube.com/WunderlichDrums
Hoping that we’ll be seeing some decent low cmc Afterlife creatures if for nothing else get more value out of Teysa’s already insane ability. HYYYYYPE!!!
EDH
WOrzhova's PoliticsB
UStensia's SaintW
U1000 FacesB
UIzzet's GambitR
RUBThe Rose's ThornBUR
RUGEternal HuntGUR
UWBArchitect's FoundryBWU
BBlood PactB