A ton of changes were implemented this time around - and a few cards came out that you might not expect (Mind's Eye, Relic of Progenitus, Eye of Ugin) to rotate out for a bit (and to trade away while they were hot).
There's been so many wholesale changes on my end that I've been testing since the advent of Wastes - and I wasn't able to play or update this as much as / as soon as I would have liked. In this time period, I had a well-heeled pal that was trying to foil out his newzilek deck and he really wanted me to trade him a ton of the foils from my Karn deck. Incidentally, I felt that for quite some time that I'd get unfairly targeted because of a nearly all foiled deck. I'd never try and foil a deck out again. I relented and and traded many of the foils for their corresponding nonfoil - and wound up with a few duals and an extra mana crypt for my troubles. I'm saying this because there's a few cards that came out (Mind's Eye, Urborg, Eye of Ugin, Relic) that came out solely because they weren't so vital to the deck they couldn't be removed and I felt that their price was good enough to trade or sell. A secondary benefit was casting off a few crutch cards I've had in here for more than 6 years - and I'll see if I need to return any back to the deck if the new recruits don't work out.
Somewhat complicated question on alhammarets archive. If I had the archive, sensei's diving top,and cloud key(I chose artifacts cost one less) on the battlefield and I draw a card with top, would I draw an extra card before placing it back or draw top itself all over againg? Just curious if I come across another combo
I'm no judge but I believe that when activated, the top's ability would draw you a card is replaced by drawing you two cards - then the top goes on top - so no combo. However, add a Rings of Brighthearth in there and things get all kindsa awesome.
I've been toying with the idea of lowering the curve a lot on this thing and dumping a bunch of the 2-cost mana rocks in here to give me more game on turn 2. That said, I had a great game last night at 10:30 pm (that we all agreed would need to be fast) of perfectly-managed resources that involved an early workshop into Blinkmoth Urn into Mimic vat + Gilded Lotus into a Kuldotha Forgemaster into Karn to animate the lotus before getting Karn, Forgemaster and Urn sacrificed to the Forgemaster (Forgemaster imprinted on Vat) to grab Voltaic Construct to generate infinite mana, re-cast Karn, animate mimic vat, activate it a billion times for infinite hasty forgemaster tokens.
Its been a while since we played man. Probably closer to year two of your deck. I would pop into parlor every so often until it had to shuddrt.
Anyways, I see you cut Strip Mine in a sweeping cut, and wondering why? I know it gets you hurt with non-basic hate, but with things like Nykthos/Cabal/Cradle as must pop lands, the benefits should out weigh the downsides, right?
There's a simple reason and fairly devious reason for the exclusion of Strip Mine:
Devious first: No one in my meta utilizes nearly as many 'super lands' as I do - largely because the habit of people playing 6+ player games and land destruction being very uncommon - often it only slows down the game. I'm not crazy about that changing any time soon. I love my Nykthoses and Scorched Ruins.
The simple reason: Back when I was still a contractor and between contracts, I traded and sold off a bunch of easily-replaceable foils from this and other decks.
I never replaced strip mine because I had noticed that in hundreds of games I'd played with this deck, I could count the times I stripped someone else's land on one hand - often mana is so tight, I'd rather allow a potentially dangerous land to remain if it meant that I had a significantly better chance to flat-out win quicker. And that's what it boils down to: why slow someone down when I could just win?
Gotcha. I guess I play in a meta where I can afford it to lose that as those types of things win games (Edric can potentially snowball if I let his cradle stay. Same goes for Volrath.)
I've got a glut of change from the old list on the first post. I got rid of the "List by card type" and moved to just displaying the "List by role" - with the mindset that it makes it easier for readers new to the deck to makce some ad-hoc changes.
Note that there's been a big shift to include all of the usable "1 for 2 casting cost" mana rocks. I wanted to try to bring the average CMC wayyyy down and give the deck more early game. So far it's pretty good.
Right now, Journeyer's Kite and Tamiyo's Journal are just being tested. I'm presuming there might be two or more juicy choices in the new set that might get these slotted out.
@Burntgerbil don't forget Planar Bridge! I have since added it and fetching Ugin, the Spirit Dragon was sweet! Even if it dies, I can just bridge my Haven of the Spirit Dragon to re-cast Ugin.
Paradox Engine is insane and is even better than Unwinding Clock.
I feel that my cantrips and searching effects are pretty low but don't know what else to take out. Also, what's your land count even if you have a Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith, Eye of Ugin and the conditional Scorched Ruins and Temple of the False God.
Any other artifact suggestions to replace Mana Crypt?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
plays Ad Nauseam and Amulet Bloom in Modern
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
Also, I quit using planar portal a few years back because games devolved into Get Portal > Get Combo Piece > End Game. I couldn't handle the temptation of fetching the win while I had the opportunity.
I'll admit, my land count is a little low - but I chalk that up to so many cheap mana rocks and all of my playgroups using the 0&1 mulligan.
Other than Mana Vault, there aren't any easy replacements. Your next cheapest ones are Worn Powerstone and Coalition Relic.
I will say that I had a fantastic moment tonight where I had a Cogwork Assembler and Metalworker out and 4 artifacts in hand and I realized that I had just gone infinite. I think I'm going to like that card.
EDIT: Also, Walking Ballista. That card is amazing. Utility and a wincon for the cheap cost of 0 with Citanul flute.
Both appear great and are currently being test-driven in my Karn Build.
They're both robust wincons that have utility outside of the moment you combo off - Throne is even a non-combo wincon.
This iteration of the deckremains remains one of my favorite play experiences (out of the 9 I'm currently running).
I'll update in a few weeks with an update once the list solidifies a bit.
EDIT: Scrap Trawler continues to constantly impress me. It looks like it'd only be ok - but there have been a few games where it was absolutely bonkers.
There's a few favorites back in (Battlesphere, Eye of Ugin) and a few classics coming out for a bit (Mox Opal, Karn PW) - We'll see how this shakes out. It's performing pretty well for me these days. Thousand-Year Elixir has been solid in almost every game I've seen it in - with Karn out, it untaps anything. I'm now considering something like Magewright's Stone too.
New spoiler season is upon us. I really like the new DFC, and think Conqueror's Galleon is going to find a spot in my Karn deck. Easy to flip with Karn as your commander. Thoughts?
Thought Vessel and Fractured Powerstone are just some remnants of a 1 for 2mana mana rocks I was trying.
Galleon is going to replace Codex Shredder (for now)
Sphere and Lotus Bloom are in because I've seen Salvaging station in so many games lately that I wanted some saucy targets for it.
Throne is coming out for Treasure map (for the time being).
I have a spare Vial sitting around - so I'm trying it out in here.
Rivals of Ixalan was released Friday - and I'm sure we're all trying out some of the new cards for the deck.
Below is what I've found so far.
The Immortal Sun : Too costly for such a widespread effect. I'd rather pay 6 for a more narrow but powerful effect. Golden Guardian : This looks too durdly for Karn. I'd never find room for it. Awakened Amalgam : Do you run Metalwork Colossus? No? Then why would you want another, worse version? Silent Gravestone : It looks like pretty solid hate until you need to activate it. Azor's Gateway: The jury seems to be out on this card. I think the exceedingly rare opportunity to flip this thing will always overshadow the solid utility of a cheap looting effect - even if you do have to exile the cards.
This is the only one out of the whole bunch that I'm testing out. The few times I have resolved it, I've noticed that no one really starts to worry until it has 3 or 4 different CMC cards exiled with it. Whether you're just interested in using it for looting or not, I've noticed that exiling multiple cards with the same CMC gets you a more breathing room than if you appeared as though that you were trying to flip this ASAP.
Other Cards:
I know it's been awhile since it came out, but I got a good deal on a masterwork Planar Bridge the other night and I considered trying it in here - even if I was on the record years ago for being against playing Planar Portal.
With the accelerated set cycle, if you're like me you're just starting to get a good feel if a new inclusion is right for a deck just around the time the next prerelease looms. I'm certain that the return to Dominaria will certainly be like this as well. I'll keep making updates and responding to feedback that anyone might have. Let me know how your deck is doing in your meta.
I think Arch of Orazca is by far the best addition to Karn from this set. I still think The Immortal Sun is probably worth it, though. I mean, I run Staff of Nin and I'm pretty sure the Sun is quite a bit better.
The arch looks great at first - but after thinking about it, I don't think it can make my list. City's blessing isn't that hard to get - but you're still probably tapping most of your mana just to play this. Trying to keep 15 Wastes in the deck makes the bar pretty high for nonbasics.
Most of our games run 7-9 turns. If you get this out on curve (let's just presume no mana rocks) it's your 6th land and to use it, you're completely tapping out - probably at the EOT right before your turn. How many of those most-important of late game turns do you want to skip by completely tapping out.
It might just be because I have a lot of playgroups in my area to choose from, but if a player is too competitive we just tell them to retire the deck or to find a new playgroup. For that reason, I'd much rather use Mikokoro and the Sanitarium to draw everyone cards and not skip (or nearly skip) a whole turn by needing to leave so much mana available.
I forsee that the circumstances that I would consider this being vital during play are so narrow that I can't justify the inclusion right now.
Most of our games run 7-9 turns. If you get this out on curve (let's just presume no mana rocks) it's your 6th land and to use it, you're completely tapping out - probably at the EOT right before your turn. How many of those most-important of late game turns do you want to skip by completely tapping out.
Damn. I'm pretty sure with my friends, games go at least twice that long. We try keep it pretty casual, no infinite or "oops, I win" combos. And I've found that Karn can definitely stall out, so I'm playing all the card advantage-generating lands that I can.
Looking forward to hear how your testing goes. I'm pretty disappointed by Karn, Scion of Urza, sadly (since I'm running the two others). The only new cards that went into my Karn deck was Zhalfirin Void - but that is one sweet land.
A ton of changes were implemented this time around - and a few cards came out that you might not expect (Mind's Eye, Relic of Progenitus, Eye of Ugin) to rotate out for a bit (and to trade away while they were hot).
There's been so many wholesale changes on my end that I've been testing since the advent of Wastes - and I wasn't able to play or update this as much as / as soon as I would have liked. In this time period, I had a well-heeled pal that was trying to foil out his newzilek deck and he really wanted me to trade him a ton of the foils from my Karn deck. Incidentally, I felt that for quite some time that I'd get unfairly targeted because of a nearly all foiled deck. I'd never try and foil a deck out again. I relented and and traded many of the foils for their corresponding nonfoil - and wound up with a few duals and an extra mana crypt for my troubles. I'm saying this because there's a few cards that came out (Mind's Eye, Urborg, Eye of Ugin, Relic) that came out solely because they weren't so vital to the deck they couldn't be removed and I felt that their price was good enough to trade or sell. A secondary benefit was casting off a few crutch cards I've had in here for more than 6 years - and I'll see if I need to return any back to the deck if the new recruits don't work out.
OUT:
IN:
We've just seen the spoiler for Eldrich Moon - and I've got my eye on Cryptolith Fragment, Geier Reach Sanitarium and maybe Nephalia Academy.
I've been toying with the idea of lowering the curve a lot on this thing and dumping a bunch of the 2-cost mana rocks in here to give me more game on turn 2. That said, I had a great game last night at 10:30 pm (that we all agreed would need to be fast) of perfectly-managed resources that involved an early workshop into Blinkmoth Urn into Mimic vat + Gilded Lotus into a Kuldotha Forgemaster into Karn to animate the lotus before getting Karn, Forgemaster and Urn sacrificed to the Forgemaster (Forgemaster imprinted on Vat) to grab Voltaic Construct to generate infinite mana, re-cast Karn, animate mimic vat, activate it a billion times for infinite hasty forgemaster tokens.
We were outta there by 11:10.
In:
Out:
Anyways, I see you cut Strip Mine in a sweeping cut, and wondering why? I know it gets you hurt with non-basic hate, but with things like Nykthos/Cabal/Cradle as must pop lands, the benefits should out weigh the downsides, right?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyDevious first: No one in my meta utilizes nearly as many 'super lands' as I do - largely because the habit of people playing 6+ player games and land destruction being very uncommon - often it only slows down the game. I'm not crazy about that changing any time soon. I love my Nykthoses and Scorched Ruins.
The simple reason: Back when I was still a contractor and between contracts, I traded and sold off a bunch of easily-replaceable foils from this and other decks.
I never replaced strip mine because I had noticed that in hundreds of games I'd played with this deck, I could count the times I stripped someone else's land on one hand - often mana is so tight, I'd rather allow a potentially dangerous land to remain if it meant that I had a significantly better chance to flat-out win quicker. And that's what it boils down to: why slow someone down when I could just win?
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyG Azusa, Wherever I May Roam
UG Rashmi Simic Power
WB Kambal Life Gain Kills
URG Maelstrom Wanderer Howdy
I've got a glut of change from the old list on the first post. I got rid of the "List by card type" and moved to just displaying the "List by role" - with the mindset that it makes it easier for readers new to the deck to makce some ad-hoc changes.
Note that there's been a big shift to include all of the usable "1 for 2 casting cost" mana rocks. I wanted to try to bring the average CMC wayyyy down and give the deck more early game. So far it's pretty good.
Right now, Journeyer's Kite and Tamiyo's Journal are just being tested. I'm presuming there might be two or more juicy choices in the new set that might get these slotted out.
OUT:
IN:
Currently I'm eyeballing
I'm also considering re-adding Thousand-Year Elixir and Magistrate's Scepter.
Paradox Engine is insane and is even better than Unwinding Clock.
I feel that my cantrips and searching effects are pretty low but don't know what else to take out. Also, what's your land count even if you have a Glacial Chasm, Maze of Ith, Eye of Ugin and the conditional Scorched Ruins and Temple of the False God.
Any other artifact suggestions to replace Mana Crypt?
"He traded sand for skins, skins for gold, gold for life. In the end, he traded life for sand."
—Afari, Tales
Also, I quit using planar portal a few years back because games devolved into Get Portal > Get Combo Piece > End Game. I couldn't handle the temptation of fetching the win while I had the opportunity.
I'll admit, my land count is a little low - but I chalk that up to so many cheap mana rocks and all of my playgroups using the 0&1 mulligan.
Other than Mana Vault, there aren't any easy replacements. Your next cheapest ones are Worn Powerstone and Coalition Relic.
I will say that I had a fantastic moment tonight where I had a Cogwork Assembler and Metalworker out and 4 artifacts in hand and I realized that I had just gone infinite. I think I'm going to like that card.
EDIT: Also, Walking Ballista. That card is amazing. Utility and a wincon for the cheap cost of 0 with Citanul flute.
Oracle's Vault
Throne of the God-Pharaoh
Both appear great and are currently being test-driven in my Karn Build.
They're both robust wincons that have utility outside of the moment you combo off - Throne is even a non-combo wincon.
This iteration of the deckremains remains one of my favorite play experiences (out of the 9 I'm currently running).
I'll update in a few weeks with an update once the list solidifies a bit.
EDIT: Scrap Trawler continues to constantly impress me. It looks like it'd only be ok - but there have been a few games where it was absolutely bonkers.
However, Mirage Mirror seems real, real good.
My updated list is current on the front page now.
Changes below
OUT
IN
There's a few favorites back in (Battlesphere, Eye of Ugin) and a few classics coming out for a bit (Mox Opal, Karn PW) - We'll see how this shakes out. It's performing pretty well for me these days. Thousand-Year Elixir has been solid in almost every game I've seen it in - with Karn out, it untaps anything. I'm now considering something like Magewright's Stone too.
IN
Thought Vessel and Fractured Powerstone are just some remnants of a 1 for 2mana mana rocks I was trying.
Galleon is going to replace Codex Shredder (for now)
Sphere and Lotus Bloom are in because I've seen Salvaging station in so many games lately that I wanted some saucy targets for it.
Throne is coming out for Treasure map (for the time being).
I have a spare Vial sitting around - so I'm trying it out in here.
Below is what I've found so far.
The Immortal Sun : Too costly for such a widespread effect. I'd rather pay 6 for a more narrow but powerful effect.
Golden Guardian : This looks too durdly for Karn. I'd never find room for it.
Awakened Amalgam : Do you run Metalwork Colossus? No? Then why would you want another, worse version?
Silent Gravestone : It looks like pretty solid hate until you need to activate it.
Azor's Gateway: The jury seems to be out on this card. I think the exceedingly rare opportunity to flip this thing will always overshadow the solid utility of a cheap looting effect - even if you do have to exile the cards.
This is the only one out of the whole bunch that I'm testing out. The few times I have resolved it, I've noticed that no one really starts to worry until it has 3 or 4 different CMC cards exiled with it. Whether you're just interested in using it for looting or not, I've noticed that exiling multiple cards with the same CMC gets you a more breathing room than if you appeared as though that you were trying to flip this ASAP.
Other Cards:
I know it's been awhile since it came out, but I got a good deal on a masterwork Planar Bridge the other night and I considered trying it in here - even if I was on the record years ago for being against playing Planar Portal.
With the accelerated set cycle, if you're like me you're just starting to get a good feel if a new inclusion is right for a deck just around the time the next prerelease looms. I'm certain that the return to Dominaria will certainly be like this as well. I'll keep making updates and responding to feedback that anyone might have. Let me know how your deck is doing in your meta.
Most of our games run 7-9 turns. If you get this out on curve (let's just presume no mana rocks) it's your 6th land and to use it, you're completely tapping out - probably at the EOT right before your turn. How many of those most-important of late game turns do you want to skip by completely tapping out.
It might just be because I have a lot of playgroups in my area to choose from, but if a player is too competitive we just tell them to retire the deck or to find a new playgroup. For that reason, I'd much rather use Mikokoro and the Sanitarium to draw everyone cards and not skip (or nearly skip) a whole turn by needing to leave so much mana available.
I forsee that the circumstances that I would consider this being vital during play are so narrow that I can't justify the inclusion right now.
I'm testing out some of the new options for this deck - currently I'm trying Karn, Scion of Urza, Weatherlight, Blackblade Reforged and Jhoira's Familiar - and also Zhalfirin Void.
Looking forward to hear how your testing goes. I'm pretty disappointed by Karn, Scion of Urza, sadly (since I'm running the two others). The only new cards that went into my Karn deck was Zhalfirin Void - but that is one sweet land.