Well you could always wait for counter back up before running out the commander. When I play my Arcanis deck he used to get gunned down as soon as he hit the field. Considering I can typically ride him to victory or instant win on a single activation so making him worked required cards like Teferi and leyline if anticipation to flash him in free counters help here. I played the deck last night I flashed in arcanis off Leyline instantly BEAST WITHIN! Me exile pact if negation and long term plans Commandeer your beast within your lands dead. Sucked for him he had already missed land drops. Then I cast time spiral drew 3 passed on a 9 card hand (R tower) and stormed combo off the next turn. This would probly be slot harder in bant than mono U but the flash enablers and a higher density of cheap / free counters should at least let you guys activate him lol.
I tried out Roon for a bit, and ran into much the same issues as others. I've since switched to Derevi, and had a lot more success. I don't know if I will stick with Derevi over Jenara, or if I'll try going back to Roon again, but I like that I have some options with the Commander slot.
My first Commander deck, so lmk what you guys think of the list.
Meant to be a "fair" deck without an infinite combo, and tries to win with Commander damage.
I've done a bit of tweeking, and there's still some things I want to put in and others to take out. I need to make room for; Bribery and Enlightened Tutor are both for sure and possibly Crucible of Worlds, Consecrated Sphinx or Eight-and-a-Half-Tails. And I'm considering taking out; O-ring, Steelshaper's Gift, Batterskull, and Jitte
So let's say you had to build this deck minus the extra turns and any counters. What would you put in their place? More ramp and fatties? Board wipes?
There are several options that can be considered. Adding more card draw could work. You could also look at more abuse outlets as well or more ETB creatures. Its sort of up to you as to what you need though so I think some testing and tweeking and just go the direction you feel you need more cards to fill for.
Rafiq of the Many - he can be tutored for with GSZ which is useful and can supply some large surprise output. I generally like him over a noncreature effect like Finest Hour because we can tutor and recur a creature much easier than an enchantment.
Silverblade Paladin similar to Rafiq but much easier to recur as Rafiq can be difficult on several levels to recover. Its less pump but its still strong.
Craterhoof Behemoth ETB based large buff potentially. Obviously you will want to have like 3+ creatures in play already for this to work at all but ETB creatures tend not to really bring a lot of hate down on themselves.
Aetherling its not an amazing creature but its a very low commit to the board sort of creature as he likely doesn't get caught up in things. The downside is you probably want to keep like three blue mana up for him because you dont want people to run through removal to see if they can get him to go so one mana is totally unacceptable and at two mana people will probably sort of consider it a little bit.
Personally I really enjoy the extra turns and counters though. It feels like you are trying to run bant without blue if you cut out a lot of blue's assets.
My first Commander deck, so lmk what you guys think of the list.
Meant to be a "fair" deck without an infinite combo, and tries to win with Commander damage.
I've done a bit of tweeking, and there's still some things I want to put in and others to take out. I need to make room for; Bribery and Enlightened Tutor are both for sure and possibly Crucible of Worlds, Consecrated Sphinx or Eight-and-a-Half-Tails. And I'm considering taking out; O-ring, Steelshaper's Gift, Batterskull, and Jitte
Welcome to commander. First things first, take everything everyone says with a grain of salt. There is no "right way" to do things in commander but there are those with experience so just try to see why someone suggested running or not running things as it can have merrit and it can also not matter for your own situation / meta. Commander is sort of an imperfect thing which is part of the fun. There is no correct way to do things necessarily as each meta / playgroup is different.
That said, looking at your list I noticed a few oddballs. This is more of the first things I would probably look at more than a comprehensive list of things that I would change. Obviously, my list is in the OP which is what I like running but the following seem to stand out a bit to me.
Noble Hierarch most people associate this to bant and to be honest, in multiplayer EDH I think its underwhelming. With multiple people come more wraths and unless your plan is the fast aggro to drop them ASAP, you should expect to loose your ramp from the early game to the first wrath if you run mana critters. Mana critters can be a good thing in fast decks or decks that plan to counter / protect from wraths but most decks dont run mana critters very well. My own suggestion is generally to ramp lands instead with something like Wood Elves or Kodama's Reach instead of banking on the early game dork.
Geist of Saint Traft Strict damage dealers dont work well in EDH. Geist in specific doesnt have a big enough body on him and generally tends to die to ETB type creatures. Plus 40 life and multiple opponents makes strict damage dealers not matter nearly enough in this format. Strict beaters take a hard hit in EDH due to that.
Genesis You run light on creatures with not that many ways to get it directly into your graveyard. It can be slow played but thats where it is vulnerable to exile / tuck removal. I tend to play it more in decks that can tutor into grave, sacrifice, or discard better.
Prophet of Kruphix I dont like how few free mana dumps you run in here. I tend to like these guys more with things like Capsize, Greed, Mobliziation, etc where I can just pay mana and do something productive without burning cards.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope I have always been sort of unimpressed with what she can actually get done. I tend to see her focus fired by everyone at the table and generally, I havent seen her get anything done. Indestructible isn't as much protection as you might think but it can work in newer playgroups. My experience in a more developed playgroup is that it often gets focused out and doesn't accomplish anything.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre I tend to run him more in decks that focus heavily on ramp and have need for the spot remove he has. I dont see much synergy with him in a bant list generally speaking though. He is a decent beater but not that hard to deal with generally speaking.
Survival of the Fittest I dont know if you run enough creatures to make this really viable. I tend to like to see somewhere around 25+ creatures for survival to really be solid generally speaking. You need to be drawing creatures to be able to use it and generally speaking the creatures you are tutoring for you are probably playing so without a decent creature quantity, you can easily run into situations where you quickly exhaust your creature tutors and quantity from your deck.
Oblivion Ring / Detention Sphere my problem with these cards is that occasionally you will run into Oblivion Stone type of effects that will clear these out and then suddenly something very good came back from these. I tend to avoid these cards due to the number of sweepers that do get run in EDH and the unpredictable results that they bring.
Welcome to commander. First things first, take everything everyone says with a grain of salt. There is no "right way" to do things in commander but there are those with experience so just try to see why someone suggested running or not running things as it can have merrit and it can also not matter for your own situation / meta. Commander is sort of an imperfect thing which is part of the fun. There is no correct way to do things necessarily as each meta / playgroup is different.
That said, looking at your list I noticed a few oddballs. This is more of the first things I would probably look at more than a comprehensive list of things that I would change. Obviously, my list is in the OP which is what I like running but the following seem to stand out a bit to me.
Noble Hierarch most people associate this to bant and to be honest, in multiplayer EDH I think its underwhelming. With multiple people come more wraths and unless your plan is the fast aggro to drop them ASAP, you should expect to loose your ramp from the early game to the first wrath if you run mana critters. Mana critters can be a good thing in fast decks or decks that plan to counter / protect from wraths but most decks dont run mana critters very well. My own suggestion is generally to ramp lands instead with something like Wood Elves or Kodama's Reach instead of banking on the early game dork.
Geist of Saint Traft Strict damage dealers dont work well in EDH. Geist in specific doesnt have a big enough body on him and generally tends to die to ETB type creatures. Plus 40 life and multiple opponents makes strict damage dealers not matter nearly enough in this format. Strict beaters take a hard hit in EDH due to that.
Genesis You run light on creatures with not that many ways to get it directly into your graveyard. It can be slow played but thats where it is vulnerable to exile / tuck removal. I tend to play it more in decks that can tutor into grave, sacrifice, or discard better.
Prophet of Kruphix I dont like how few free mana dumps you run in here. I tend to like these guys more with things like Capsize, Greed, Mobliziation, etc where I can just pay mana and do something productive without burning cards.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope I have always been sort of unimpressed with what she can actually get done. I tend to see her focus fired by everyone at the table and generally, I havent seen her get anything done. Indestructible isn't as much protection as you might think but it can work in newer playgroups. My experience in a more developed playgroup is that it often gets focused out and doesn't accomplish anything.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre I tend to run him more in decks that focus heavily on ramp and have need for the spot remove he has. I dont see much synergy with him in a bant list generally speaking though. He is a decent beater but not that hard to deal with generally speaking.
Survival of the Fittest I dont know if you run enough creatures to make this really viable. I tend to like to see somewhere around 25+ creatures for survival to really be solid generally speaking. You need to be drawing creatures to be able to use it and generally speaking the creatures you are tutoring for you are probably playing so without a decent creature quantity, you can easily run into situations where you quickly exhaust your creature tutors and quantity from your deck.
Oblivion Ring / Detention Sphere my problem with these cards is that occasionally you will run into Oblivion Stone type of effects that will clear these out and then suddenly something very good came back from these. I tend to avoid these cards due to the number of sweepers that do get run in EDH and the unpredictable results that they bring.
Thanks for the advise! I'll definitely take a look at replacing some of those.
How's your testing with Bident of Thassa? Have you had good results with it? I'm keeping Crystal Shard in its place now cause i think i like it more and specifically in my meta (i love that it can slow Animar down if i have it in my opening hand :)), but i'd like to hear how it's working for you.
I haven't gotten to test it much with all the new decks I have been pushing around of late. I have been sort of considering just swapping it into a Conjurer's Closet or something but I haven't really gotten to test it either way much in my Jenara deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope I have always been sort of unimpressed with what she can actually get done. I tend to see her focus fired by everyone at the table and generally, I havent seen her get anything done. Indestructible isn't as much protection as you might think but it can work in newer playgroups. My experience in a more developed playgroup is that it often gets focused out and doesn't accomplish anything.
After falling in love hard with her and Iona I'm starting to feel the same way. I'm starting to think that maybe she would be best served run in a deck with some MLD packages run around her. Last night I had this crazy idea of running a Kaalia MLD deck built around keeping my stuff with things like Avacyn and a Darksteel Forge Mycosynth Lattice type combo.
After falling in love hard with her and Iona I'm starting to feel the same way. I'm starting to think that maybe she would be best served run in a deck with some MLD packages run around her. Last night I had this crazy idea of running a Kaalia MLD deck built around keeping my stuff with things like Avacyn and a Darksteel Forge Mycosynth Lattice type combo.
Wellllll, if MLD is your jam, might I direct your eyes toward my primer good sir?
Regarding Conjurer's Closet: This is a card I've always loved in blink/flicker/value decks. It's not as fast as, say, a Deadeye Navigator, but it's great to have something that auto-flickers for you every round. I use it to great effect in Sharuum and Lavinia.
ISB- I wanted to give you a big thank you for your list!
I started playing edh 2 years back, and at the time had been running a bant list I loved in legacy. After staring at different decks on the forum for a few days, your list really appealed to me: it is super synergized, resilient, and packed with answers. I built a similar version as my first foray into the format, which was perfect as the deck can do a little bit of (most) everything.
These days I'm just a handful of cards off from your list... main differences are:
-The inclusion of the missing 1cc tutors... I don't really mind the card disadvantage and this seems to make the deck even more consistent at always being able to answer/put on pressure. I also have Wargate in. What can I say, I love my tutors.
-I like Yavimaya Dryad in the place of Farhaven Elf. I've only had the 2 green in cc matter in one game ever, and for the stiffer cost you get an extra power, forestwalk, and the ability to search for a dual land or dryad arbor (sometimes I want to just clamp).
-At a glance the stuff I left out is basically 2 of your extra turns (all of the pricey ones are in my Edric and Azami decks), and Sphinx's Revelation
This has been one of my favorite decks to take to unknown metas, as I find it isn't super mean or alienating, but just gets there so often. Thanks again for your creation!
After falling in love hard with her and Iona I'm starting to feel the same way. I'm starting to think that maybe she would be best served run in a deck with some MLD packages run around her. Last night I had this crazy idea of running a Kaalia MLD deck built around keeping my stuff with things like Avacyn and a Darksteel Forge Mycosynth Lattice type combo.
Kaalia MLD is a scarry scarry thing. There are builds out there if that is what you want to play but its also not really a way to make friends lol.
Wellllll, if MLD is your jam, might I direct your eyes toward my primer good sir?
Regarding Conjurer's Closet: This is a card I've always loved in blink/flicker/value decks. It's not as fast as, say, a Deadeye Navigator, but it's great to have something that auto-flickers for you every round. I use it to great effect in Sharuum and Lavinia.
ISB- I wanted to give you a big thank you for your list!
I started playing edh 2 years back, and at the time had been running a bant list I loved in legacy. After staring at different decks on the forum for a few days, your list really appealed to me: it is super synergized, resilient, and packed with answers. I built a similar version as my first foray into the format, which was perfect as the deck can do a little bit of (most) everything.
These days I'm just a handful of cards off from your list... main differences are:
-The inclusion of the missing 1cc tutors... I don't really mind the card disadvantage and this seems to make the deck even more consistent at always being able to answer/put on pressure. I also have Wargate in. What can I say, I love my tutors.
-I like Yavimaya Dryad in the place of Farhaven Elf. I've only had the 2 green in cc matter in one game ever, and for the stiffer cost you get an extra power, forestwalk, and the ability to search for a dual land or dryad arbor (sometimes I want to just clamp).
-At a glance the stuff I left out is basically 2 of your extra turns (all of the pricey ones are in my Edric and Azami decks), and Sphinx's Revelation
This has been one of my favorite decks to take to unknown metas, as I find it isn't super mean or alienating, but just gets there so often. Thanks again for your creation!
glad to hear another user with good results. Jenara is a very powerful deck and one of my favorite aspects of her is just how she doesnt usually feels super degenerate when she wins (outside of the whoops infinite turns). Its a very versatile deck with a lot of potentially hidden power in it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Some cards are out my budget like the cheap tutors and some lands.
Do you think ramp and this many counters is counter intuitive? I was thinking about dropping 1 or 2 sweepers/counters and running more spot removal. Oust or Condemn? Something else?
I think maybe the coiling oracle is too colour intensive early and will probably change to farseek.
Any input is appreciated!
Been enjoying reading this thread but 218 pages?! That might take a while! Cheers guys
It looks like a good approach to me but it depends on how much more you play 1v1 vs mulitplayer. Your curve looks like its decreased which is a good thing for 1v1 but there are still a few wonkey cards for MP like Gilded Lotus which just feels too slow for being ramp in 1v1 and Sylvan Primordial which only takes out a single target when playing heads up. If you are playing lots of heads up I would also suggest taking Terminus and turning it into Supreme Verdict because the uncounterability and cheap cost trump tuck for heads up usually.
In general though, it really depends on how much 1v1 you play and how much multiplayer you play with it. Right now it looks like its a bit of a split. ETB tactics are also a little less important in heads up because there are less collateral damage wraths to the game there and the ability to just do some damage to your opponent becomes a bit better there because there is less life total and just one opponent to consider.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I have a similar deck and I'm having trouble dealing with opposing Torpor Orb and Humility, specifically the latter. What are my best options without diluting my deck's focus too much? I'm currently running Oblivion Stone, Pact of Negation, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Beast Within, Unexpectedly Absent and Krosan Grip. I was considering the following cards: Nevinyrral's Disk, Austere Command, Arcane Denial, Dissipate, Oblation, Return to Dust and Act of Authority. I know Austere Command is already in your current decklist, but are the others worth a shot? Return to Dust especially seems like it would be a good solution for my problem, since it exiles the card so it can't be Replenish'ed, but at the same time it feels pretty narrow and I would have to cut a more relevant card for my general strategy (Ramp, Draw, ETB abuse). The Disk seems unsynergistic with the rest of the deck, but it clears multiple problematic cards at the same time and also hits mana rocks (which can become a problem since the deck that runs Torpor Orb/Humility also runs cards like Armageddon). I'd also be considering Force of Will if it wasn't so expensive. Any (other) ideas? Thanks!
I have a similar deck and I'm having trouble dealing with opposing Torpor Orb and Humility, specifically the latter. What are my best options without diluting my deck's focus too much? I'm currently running Oblivion Stone, Pact of Negation, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Beast Within, Unexpectedly Absent and Krosan Grip. I was considering the following cards: Nevinyrral's Disk, Austere Command, Arcane Denial, Dissipate, Oblation, Return to Dust and Act of Authority. I know Austere Command is already in your current decklist, but are the others worth a shot? Return to Dust especially seems like it would be a good solution for my problem, since it exiles the card so it can't be Replenish'ed, but at the same time it feels pretty narrow and I would have to cut a more relevant card for my general strategy (Ramp, Draw, ETB abuse). The Disk seems unsynergistic with the rest of the deck, but it clears multiple problematic cards at the same time and also hits mana rocks (which can become a problem since the deck that runs Torpor Orb/Humility also runs cards like Armageddon). I'd also be considering Force of Will if it wasn't so expensive. Any (other) ideas? Thanks!
edit: I should add in games I've seen Humility played vs my Bant deck it never really hurt. The swords gave me a decided advantage and Humility stopping all the creature combo decks from being able to go off just gave me more time to beat down the table
If it's not already in your list, Bant Charm is a nice swiss army knife that also hits torpor orb. I'd also put in a vote for Oblation as it is a nice catch all when you really need to get rid of something (especially an opponent's commander), and at worse is a divination hitting your own card that someone was taking out with spot removal or a sweeper.
Assuming your list is similar to ISB's, your Glen Elendra Archmage is a nice early card to tutor for against decks you play that you know will be packing non-creatures that ruin your game plan. I don't think Force of Will has a spot in 3 color edh decks as it will just be too inconsistent... unless you run something where the vast majority of your non-lands = blue.
I have a similar deck and I'm having trouble dealing with opposing Torpor Orb and Humility, specifically the latter. What are my best options without diluting my deck's focus too much? I'm currently running Oblivion Stone, Pact of Negation, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Beast Within, Unexpectedly Absent and Krosan Grip. I was considering the following cards: Nevinyrral's Disk, Austere Command, Arcane Denial, Dissipate, Oblation, Return to Dust and Act of Authority. I know Austere Command is already in your current decklist, but are the others worth a shot? Return to Dust especially seems like it would be a good solution for my problem, since it exiles the card so it can't be Replenish'ed, but at the same time it feels pretty narrow and I would have to cut a more relevant card for my general strategy (Ramp, Draw, ETB abuse). The Disk seems unsynergistic with the rest of the deck, but it clears multiple problematic cards at the same time and also hits mana rocks (which can become a problem since the deck that runs Torpor Orb/Humility also runs cards like Armageddon). I'd also be considering Force of Will if it wasn't so expensive. Any (other) ideas? Thanks!
Specifically for Torpor Orb, I like adding Qasali Pridemage due to its really just versatility. Its easy to tutor and recur making it for a really solid inclusion if you encounter the orb a lot.
As far as humility goes, most any versatile answer is a good call. I dont really like loading heavily on counterspells specifically because its easy to have ended up with no mana up for them. Adding more card draw is also another option as digging to a tutor / answer works just fine.
If you are looking for an answer specifically to stop him from recurring them, Return to Dust is a solid card that exiles and has a nice two for one.
edit: I should add in games I've seen Humility played vs my Bant deck it never really hurt. The swords gave me a decided advantage and Humility stopping all the creature combo decks from being able to go off just gave me more time to beat down the table
Swords are a good call, if you are running Jenara specifically, she gets to keep her +/+ counters still making her usually larger than the other creatures which can be useful too. There is also an advantage that people will be sort of putting focus on the player running Humility for as long as its in play so its likely that you arent the only one trying to answer it.
If it's not already in your list, Bant Charm is a nice swiss army knife that also hits torpor orb. I'd also put in a vote for Oblation as it is a nice catch all when you really need to get rid of something (especially an opponent's commander), and at worse is a divination hitting your own card that someone was taking out with spot removal or a sweeper.
Assuming your list is similar to ISB's, your Glen Elendra Archmage is a nice early card to tutor for against decks you play that you know will be packing non-creatures that ruin your game plan. I don't think Force of Will has a spot in 3 color edh decks as it will just be too inconsistent... unless you run something where the vast majority of your non-lands = blue.
I have also had some difficulty with force of will in three color. Sometimes you will not have much for blue in hand so a lot of times it really doesnt give you an option of what you have to exile to use it or you wont be able to use it at all. Its also sort of difficult to abuse in general.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I have a similar deck and I'm having trouble dealing with opposing Torpor Orb and Humility, specifically the latter. What are my best options without diluting my deck's focus too much? I'm currently running Oblivion Stone, Pact of Negation, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Beast Within, Unexpectedly Absent and Krosan Grip. I was considering the following cards: Nevinyrral's Disk, Austere Command, Arcane Denial, Dissipate, Oblation, Return to Dust and Act of Authority. I know Austere Command is already in your current decklist, but are the others worth a shot? Return to Dust especially seems like it would be a good solution for my problem, since it exiles the card so it can't be Replenish'ed, but at the same time it feels pretty narrow and I would have to cut a more relevant card for my general strategy (Ramp, Draw, ETB abuse). The Disk seems unsynergistic with the rest of the deck, but it clears multiple problematic cards at the same time and also hits mana rocks (which can become a problem since the deck that runs Torpor Orb/Humility also runs cards like Armageddon). I'd also be considering Force of Will if it wasn't so expensive. Any (other) ideas? Thanks!
If your deck is etb, what about aura shards? Agaist humility, against torpr you'll need a removal package
How has Bident of Thassa performed for you guys? I've only had it in play for 2 games thus far... and once it resulted in a blowout, and in the other it was irrelevant.
Also, why not Yavimaya Dryad over Farhaven Elf? The 2 green mana hasn't really been relevant for me, and the added bonus of hitting duals (or dryad arbor in my list), in addition to occasionally being unblockable with a sword has been pretty cool. I do run less basics (and more stuff like polluted delta/city of brass/horizon canopy), so I take a bit more damage but have more flexibility with colors.
In terms of artifact/enchantment hate... Qasali Pridemage has been really solid even tho it's not etb. Exalted has even been relevant for me in a handful of games.
I also wanted to say that Crucible of Worlds has been ridiculously good in my deck. It may be my meta, but it's just been so solid in terms of raw card advantage. With 9 fetches/horizon canopy/strip mine/wasteland it just always has a target, and usually it nets me tons of free land drops. I don't seek it out to abuse the LD (perhaps why my crucible isn't auto killed), but sometimes this is backbreaking to finish a game once it's 1v1. It also likes to be a bant phyrexian arena with horizon canopy in the late game. It's worth noting that I typically play 3-4 person edh, so that likely has influenced my results here.
Hey, I was on YouTube and I saw a deck video that copied yours. There is one card (a blue 3 mana bird) that I don't think you have. Video is called "Leroy's Jenara, Asura of War CMDR Deck". I don't know if you knew about this but I thought I'd let you know.
Hey, I was on YouTube and I saw a deck video that copied yours. There is one card (a blue 3 mana bird) that I don't think you have. Video is called "Leroy's Jenara, Asura of War CMDR Deck". I don't know if you knew about this but I thought I'd let you know.
Survival in my list is all about just having the right creature for the right situation. It can be abused to some extent also by cycling some small creatures through and then fetching Reveillark or Sun Titan to pick up additional value. There isn't really much for combo in my deck so while a lot of times it can be a combo enabler, in my list its just about having the right creature for the job.
There is some info on a Reveillark combo utilizing survival in the OP as well. I used to use it but I tend to try to shy away from combo when I can.
Hey, I was on YouTube and I saw a deck video that copied yours. There is one card (a blue 3 mana bird) that I don't think you have. Video is called "Leroy's Jenara, Asura of War CMDR Deck". I don't know if you knew about this but I thought I'd let you know.
I have been playing this deck for a long time and there have been a lot of users who have given assistance in getting the deck to where it is these days. I can hardly claim that its my own either. I think its cool to see others enjoying similar builds but after having sort of a group discussion for so long on lists, I would be surprised if a lot of Jenara builds werent similar because we really sort of ironed out a lot of the wrinkles. At this point, there are a lot of lists that are 90+% the same thing.
Its always good to see that the list is getting more exposure though. If he came to the same conclusions on his own, then bravo. It took a lot of discussion and testing to get the list to where it is today. I really need to dust it off and play it more often myself but I played it so heavily back in the day, I think I sort of burned myself and others out on Jenara lol. Its still one of my best decks but I played it so excessively I dont play it a lot anymore.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
My only issue is it feels like its really fragile and easy to get around. It definitely favors having sacrifice outlets though to be used.
You might also test Nim Deathmantle as a similar effect. The advantage of the deathmantle is that it can be used on any creature and is a little less fragile as the creature can be killed again before returning or before it resolves in the first place and the Immortality will drop off.
Generally speaking, I like using sacrifice outlets though to make these type of cards work the best.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Meant to be a "fair" deck without an infinite combo, and tries to win with Commander damage.
I've done a bit of tweeking, and there's still some things I want to put in and others to take out. I need to make room for; Bribery and Enlightened Tutor are both for sure and possibly Crucible of Worlds, Consecrated Sphinx or Eight-and-a-Half-Tails. And I'm considering taking out; O-ring, Steelshaper's Gift, Batterskull, and Jitte
1 Jenara, Asura of War
CREATURES (19):
1 Noble Hierarch (Judge Promo)
1 Azorius Guildmage (*)
1 Phantasmal Image (*)
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Eternal Witness (*)
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Geist of Saint Traft (*)
1 Phyrexian Metamorph (*)
1 Solemn Simulacrum (*)
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Mystic Snake
1 Acidic Slime (*)
1 Genesis
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Stonehewer Giant (*)
1 Sun Titan (*)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
ARTIFACTS (12):
1 Relic of Progenitus (*)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (*)
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Ingot (*)
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Lightning Greaves (*)
1 Swiftfoot Boots (*)
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Rhystic Study
1 Oblivion Ring (*)
1 Detention Sphere (*)
1 Finest Hour (*)
INSTANT (12):
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares (*)
1 Cyclonic Rift (*)
1 Force of Will
1 Hinder (FULL ART)
1 Cryptic Command
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Krosan Grip (*)
1 Beast Within
1 Voidslim
1 Sphinx's Revelation
SORCERY (11):
1 Ponder (FULL ART)
1 Farseek (*)
1 Cultivate (*)
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Green Sun's Zenith (*)
1 Steelshaper's gift
1 Austere Command
1 Wrath of God (FULL ART)
1 Day of Judgment (FULL ART)
1 Supreme Verdict (*)
1 Wargate
PLANESWALKERS (2):
1 Karn Liberated
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
All 3 colors
1 Command Tower
1 Seaside Citadel (*)
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Vivid Meadow (*)
Mana producing
3 Forest (unhinged)
3 Pains (unhinged)
3 Island (Unhinged)
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
1 Temple Garden
1 Hollowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Hinterland Harbor
Fetches
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
Man-Lands
1 Stirring Wildwood (*)
1 celestial colonnade
1 Treetop Village (*)
Utility
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Kor Haven
1 Homeward Path
1 Reliquary Tower (*)
Land Destruction
1 Strip Mine (*)
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge (*)
GW ELVES GW
UG INFECT UG
------- LEGACY -------
G ELVES G
UG INFECT UG
------- EDH Multi-Player -------
GWU Jenar, Asura of War GWU
There are several options that can be considered. Adding more card draw could work. You could also look at more abuse outlets as well or more ETB creatures. Its sort of up to you as to what you need though so I think some testing and tweeking and just go the direction you feel you need more cards to fill for.
Rafiq of the Many - he can be tutored for with GSZ which is useful and can supply some large surprise output. I generally like him over a noncreature effect like Finest Hour because we can tutor and recur a creature much easier than an enchantment.
Silverblade Paladin similar to Rafiq but much easier to recur as Rafiq can be difficult on several levels to recover. Its less pump but its still strong.
Craterhoof Behemoth ETB based large buff potentially. Obviously you will want to have like 3+ creatures in play already for this to work at all but ETB creatures tend not to really bring a lot of hate down on themselves.
Aetherling its not an amazing creature but its a very low commit to the board sort of creature as he likely doesn't get caught up in things. The downside is you probably want to keep like three blue mana up for him because you dont want people to run through removal to see if they can get him to go so one mana is totally unacceptable and at two mana people will probably sort of consider it a little bit.
Personally I really enjoy the extra turns and counters though. It feels like you are trying to run bant without blue if you cut out a lot of blue's assets.
Welcome to commander. First things first, take everything everyone says with a grain of salt. There is no "right way" to do things in commander but there are those with experience so just try to see why someone suggested running or not running things as it can have merrit and it can also not matter for your own situation / meta. Commander is sort of an imperfect thing which is part of the fun. There is no correct way to do things necessarily as each meta / playgroup is different.
That said, looking at your list I noticed a few oddballs. This is more of the first things I would probably look at more than a comprehensive list of things that I would change. Obviously, my list is in the OP which is what I like running but the following seem to stand out a bit to me.
Noble Hierarch most people associate this to bant and to be honest, in multiplayer EDH I think its underwhelming. With multiple people come more wraths and unless your plan is the fast aggro to drop them ASAP, you should expect to loose your ramp from the early game to the first wrath if you run mana critters. Mana critters can be a good thing in fast decks or decks that plan to counter / protect from wraths but most decks dont run mana critters very well. My own suggestion is generally to ramp lands instead with something like Wood Elves or Kodama's Reach instead of banking on the early game dork.
Geist of Saint Traft Strict damage dealers dont work well in EDH. Geist in specific doesnt have a big enough body on him and generally tends to die to ETB type creatures. Plus 40 life and multiple opponents makes strict damage dealers not matter nearly enough in this format. Strict beaters take a hard hit in EDH due to that.
Genesis You run light on creatures with not that many ways to get it directly into your graveyard. It can be slow played but thats where it is vulnerable to exile / tuck removal. I tend to play it more in decks that can tutor into grave, sacrifice, or discard better.
Prophet of Kruphix I dont like how few free mana dumps you run in here. I tend to like these guys more with things like Capsize, Greed, Mobliziation, etc where I can just pay mana and do something productive without burning cards.
Avacyn, Angel of Hope I have always been sort of unimpressed with what she can actually get done. I tend to see her focus fired by everyone at the table and generally, I havent seen her get anything done. Indestructible isn't as much protection as you might think but it can work in newer playgroups. My experience in a more developed playgroup is that it often gets focused out and doesn't accomplish anything.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre I tend to run him more in decks that focus heavily on ramp and have need for the spot remove he has. I dont see much synergy with him in a bant list generally speaking though. He is a decent beater but not that hard to deal with generally speaking.
Survival of the Fittest I dont know if you run enough creatures to make this really viable. I tend to like to see somewhere around 25+ creatures for survival to really be solid generally speaking. You need to be drawing creatures to be able to use it and generally speaking the creatures you are tutoring for you are probably playing so without a decent creature quantity, you can easily run into situations where you quickly exhaust your creature tutors and quantity from your deck.
Oblivion Ring / Detention Sphere my problem with these cards is that occasionally you will run into Oblivion Stone type of effects that will clear these out and then suddenly something very good came back from these. I tend to avoid these cards due to the number of sweepers that do get run in EDH and the unpredictable results that they bring.
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[Modern] Allies
Thanks for the advise! I'll definitely take a look at replacing some of those.
GW ELVES GW
UG INFECT UG
------- LEGACY -------
G ELVES G
UG INFECT UG
------- EDH Multi-Player -------
GWU Jenar, Asura of War GWU
I haven't gotten to test it much with all the new decks I have been pushing around of late. I have been sort of considering just swapping it into a Conjurer's Closet or something but I haven't really gotten to test it either way much in my Jenara deck.
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[Modern] Allies
After falling in love hard with her and Iona I'm starting to feel the same way. I'm starting to think that maybe she would be best served run in a deck with some MLD packages run around her. Last night I had this crazy idea of running a Kaalia MLD deck built around keeping my stuff with things like Avacyn and a Darksteel Forge Mycosynth Lattice type combo.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
Wellllll, if MLD is your jam, might I direct your eyes toward my primer good sir?
Regarding Conjurer's Closet: This is a card I've always loved in blink/flicker/value decks. It's not as fast as, say, a Deadeye Navigator, but it's great to have something that auto-flickers for you every round. I use it to great effect in Sharuum and Lavinia.
www.commandercast.com
Commandercast on Tumblr!
My EDH/Commander List:
Wedges:
Numot, the Devastator RWU
Damia, Sage of Stone GUB
Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Olivia Voldaren
I started playing edh 2 years back, and at the time had been running a bant list I loved in legacy. After staring at different decks on the forum for a few days, your list really appealed to me: it is super synergized, resilient, and packed with answers. I built a similar version as my first foray into the format, which was perfect as the deck can do a little bit of (most) everything.
These days I'm just a handful of cards off from your list... main differences are:
-The inclusion of the missing 1cc tutors... I don't really mind the card disadvantage and this seems to make the deck even more consistent at always being able to answer/put on pressure. I also have Wargate in. What can I say, I love my tutors.
-The addition of Crucible of Worlds, Polluted Delta, Wasteland and Horizon Canopy. I don't mind running a few less basics.
-I like Yavimaya Dryad in the place of Farhaven Elf. I've only had the 2 green in cc matter in one game ever, and for the stiffer cost you get an extra power, forestwalk, and the ability to search for a dual land or dryad arbor (sometimes I want to just clamp).
-At a glance the stuff I left out is basically 2 of your extra turns (all of the pricey ones are in my Edric and Azami decks), and Sphinx's Revelation
This has been one of my favorite decks to take to unknown metas, as I find it isn't super mean or alienating, but just gets there so often. Thanks again for your creation!
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
Kaalia MLD is a scarry scarry thing. There are builds out there if that is what you want to play but its also not really a way to make friends lol.
stealing my Jenara players
Its cool, ill forgive you I suppose lol.
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[Modern] Allies
It looks like a good approach to me but it depends on how much more you play 1v1 vs mulitplayer. Your curve looks like its decreased which is a good thing for 1v1 but there are still a few wonkey cards for MP like Gilded Lotus which just feels too slow for being ramp in 1v1 and Sylvan Primordial which only takes out a single target when playing heads up. If you are playing lots of heads up I would also suggest taking Terminus and turning it into Supreme Verdict because the uncounterability and cheap cost trump tuck for heads up usually.
In general though, it really depends on how much 1v1 you play and how much multiplayer you play with it. Right now it looks like its a bit of a split. ETB tactics are also a little less important in heads up because there are less collateral damage wraths to the game there and the ability to just do some damage to your opponent becomes a bit better there because there is less life total and just one opponent to consider.
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[Modern] Allies
GWUB 4C Gifts Control
Commander:
GWU Derevi
BGW Ghave
BUG Muldrotha
Tiny Leaders:
BGW Doran
BGU Leovold
Cyclonic Rift, Fracturing Gust, Karn Liberated, and Nature's Claim are possibilities.
edit: I should add in games I've seen Humility played vs my Bant deck it never really hurt. The swords gave me a decided advantage and Humility stopping all the creature combo decks from being able to go off just gave me more time to beat down the table
BRGrenzo, Dungeon Warden EDH
GAzusa, Always in a Rush EDH
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Warlord EDH
Trade thread on MOTL
Assuming your list is similar to ISB's, your Glen Elendra Archmage is a nice early card to tutor for against decks you play that you know will be packing non-creatures that ruin your game plan. I don't think Force of Will has a spot in 3 color edh decks as it will just be too inconsistent... unless you run something where the vast majority of your non-lands = blue.
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
Specifically for Torpor Orb, I like adding Qasali Pridemage due to its really just versatility. Its easy to tutor and recur making it for a really solid inclusion if you encounter the orb a lot.
As far as humility goes, most any versatile answer is a good call. I dont really like loading heavily on counterspells specifically because its easy to have ended up with no mana up for them. Adding more card draw is also another option as digging to a tutor / answer works just fine.
If you are looking for an answer specifically to stop him from recurring them, Return to Dust is a solid card that exiles and has a nice two for one.
Swords are a good call, if you are running Jenara specifically, she gets to keep her +/+ counters still making her usually larger than the other creatures which can be useful too. There is also an advantage that people will be sort of putting focus on the player running Humility for as long as its in play so its likely that you arent the only one trying to answer it.
I have also had some difficulty with force of will in three color. Sometimes you will not have much for blue in hand so a lot of times it really doesnt give you an option of what you have to exile to use it or you wont be able to use it at all. Its also sort of difficult to abuse in general.
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[Modern] Allies
If your deck is etb, what about aura shards? Agaist humility, against torpr you'll need a removal package
Also, why not Yavimaya Dryad over Farhaven Elf? The 2 green mana hasn't really been relevant for me, and the added bonus of hitting duals (or dryad arbor in my list), in addition to occasionally being unblockable with a sword has been pretty cool. I do run less basics (and more stuff like polluted delta/city of brass/horizon canopy), so I take a bit more damage but have more flexibility with colors.
In terms of artifact/enchantment hate... Qasali Pridemage has been really solid even tho it's not etb. Exalted has even been relevant for me in a handful of games.
I also wanted to say that Crucible of Worlds has been ridiculously good in my deck. It may be my meta, but it's just been so solid in terms of raw card advantage. With 9 fetches/horizon canopy/strip mine/wasteland it just always has a target, and usually it nets me tons of free land drops. I don't seek it out to abuse the LD (perhaps why my crucible isn't auto killed), but sometimes this is backbreaking to finish a game once it's 1v1. It also likes to be a bant phyrexian arena with horizon canopy in the late game. It's worth noting that I typically play 3-4 person edh, so that likely has influenced my results here.
Karador: Toolbox Hatebears
Edric: Flying Men and Extra Turns
Jhoira: Eldrazi and Sweepers
GAAIV: Control Goodstuff + Combo + Prison
Kiki-Jiki: ETB Goodstuff and Combo
Thrun: Gear+Removal+Draw=Trollsmash
it is Raven Familiar.
Survival in my list is all about just having the right creature for the right situation. It can be abused to some extent also by cycling some small creatures through and then fetching Reveillark or Sun Titan to pick up additional value. There isn't really much for combo in my deck so while a lot of times it can be a combo enabler, in my list its just about having the right creature for the job.
There is some info on a Reveillark combo utilizing survival in the OP as well. I used to use it but I tend to try to shy away from combo when I can.
I have been playing this deck for a long time and there have been a lot of users who have given assistance in getting the deck to where it is these days. I can hardly claim that its my own either. I think its cool to see others enjoying similar builds but after having sort of a group discussion for so long on lists, I would be surprised if a lot of Jenara builds werent similar because we really sort of ironed out a lot of the wrinkles. At this point, there are a lot of lists that are 90+% the same thing.
Its always good to see that the list is getting more exposure though. If he came to the same conclusions on his own, then bravo. It took a lot of discussion and testing to get the list to where it is today. I really need to dust it off and play it more often myself but I played it so heavily back in the day, I think I sort of burned myself and others out on Jenara lol. Its still one of my best decks but I played it so excessively I dont play it a lot anymore.
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[Modern] Allies
My only issue is it feels like its really fragile and easy to get around. It definitely favors having sacrifice outlets though to be used.
You might also test Nim Deathmantle as a similar effect. The advantage of the deathmantle is that it can be used on any creature and is a little less fragile as the creature can be killed again before returning or before it resolves in the first place and the Immortality will drop off.
Generally speaking, I like using sacrifice outlets though to make these type of cards work the best.
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[Modern] Allies