I ended up removing Ghostway and Genesis and replaced them with Mistmeadow Witch and something else. Although I think I prefer Ghostway over the witch, albeit I don't have a way to tutor it out. Then again, I couldn't pod chain into witch and if I were to use Survival, I don't think I would be pitching something else to go and get mistmeadow. I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet really, but the more I think about it the less practical it seems.
Honestly, the witch has been much more of a pet card for me. I just love its potential. Ghostway, I think, has a lot of ways that it can be abused, especially for those playing in a meta with more wrath. I wouldn't necessarily see witch as something that I would pod chain into especially since I have no one drops. That, though, is dependent on one's deck construction. She is expensive to activate, but she goes along with the overall theme that I have in my deck which leans a little more toward blink than ISB's list does.
I ended up removing Ghostway and Genesis and replaced them with Mistmeadow Witch and something else. Although I think I prefer Ghostway over the witch, albeit I don't have a way to tutor it out. Then again, I couldn't pod chain into witch and if I were to use Survival, I don't think I would be pitching something else to go and get mistmeadow. I haven't gotten a chance to test it out yet really, but the more I think about it the less practical it seems.
Yeah, of the two Ghostway is definitely better. I run both, but it's a taste thing. If I had to cut one, it would be the Witch.
@ ISBPathfinder
Have you ever considered Basilisk Collar? your deck is pretty aggro oriented and the collar makes combat a nightmare for your opponents, and gains an amount of life that actualyl becomes relevant. Plus, collar on Akroma is so boss it's not even funny.
I am running a more High CC list than yours...with more endgame spells. So I am need of more ramp. I currently use, Sakura Tribe Elder, Sol Ring, Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf, Solemn Simulacrum, Skyshroud Claim.
Seeing that..pick 2-3 of these 7 and let me know what you would run.
Yavimaya Druid
Yavimaya Elder
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Mind Stone
Also, I am removing High Market from my list...we don't have much creature theft and it rarely teams up with Skullclamp. I am gonna run Dust Bowl..just because Maze of Ith, Cabal Coffers and Strongholds are running rampant.
Yeah, of the two Ghostway is definitely better. I run both, but it's a taste thing. If I had to cut one, it would be the Witch.
@ ISBPathfinder
Have you ever considered Basilisk Collar? your deck is pretty aggro oriented and the collar makes combat a nightmare for your opponents, and gains an amount of life that actualyl becomes relevant. Plus, collar on Akroma is so boss it's not even funny.
Sorry I missed the Basilisk Collar question earlier apparently. I would say that the use of this type of equipment is a bit questionable. I could see it being good on defense however I dont feel I really have a problem defending myself. If you see more big fattie types of creatures that swing at you I coul see it I guess. The big implimentation in my mind would be to block some annoyin shroud guys (yes I mean you Uril, the Miststalker) Generally speaking though it doesnt really generate all that much card advantage though but I like that it is cheap and gives another Trinket Mage target. Overall though I just havent ever felt like I needed it in my deck.
I could see it being sort of a "fun card" but I dont really see its utility as a necessity.
I am running a more High CC list than yours...with more endgame spells. So I am need of more ramp. I currently use, Sakura Tribe Elder, Sol Ring, Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf, Solemn Simulacrum, Skyshroud Claim.
Seeing that..pick 2-3 of these 7 and let me know what you would run.
Yavimaya Druid
Yavimaya Elder
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Mind Stone
Also, I am removing High Market from my list...we don't have much creature theft and it rarely teams up with Skullclamp. I am gonna run Dust Bowl..just because Maze of Ith, Cabal Coffers and Strongholds are running rampant.
Yavimaya Dryad I am actually utilizing it myself and while I havent seen huge game breaking things from it, it has worked just fine for me so far. The evasion it has is occasionally useful for poking at people or for swinging with swords as well. I like keeping my ramp creature based when I can which gives me room to abuse them in all my usual ways.
Cultivate / Kodama's Reach they work just fine. I stopped using these some time back due to the fact that they are hard to abuse and when drawn late in a game they can really suck. However they do the job just fine and as long as you aren't worried about mass LD I think they work fine.
Darksteel Ingot I like this as sort of a cheap fix that is hard to remove. It is good against mass LD if that is at all something you need to worry about. If people dont do much for artifact sweepers or target mana stones in your meta then Coalition Relic is better. Generally speaking though if you dont have problems setting up your manabase and people arent running mass LD though I would go with Cultivate / Kodama's Reach before I went to the mana stones.
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As for the other ones:
Yavimaya Elder I have always been disappointed in the fact that he doesn't actually ramp and he is so clunky and expensive to manipulate. He works ok if you need some CA in like mono green or something but I find him utterly unimpressive otherwise.
Mind Stone colorless mana is a lot less reliable in this deck in my opinion especially in the early game. I want to set up my manabase quickly and the fact that this only taps for colorless is a bit dissapointing. If you have a really solid landbase I suppose you can utilize it however I am still a bit uneasy utilizing fast colorless mana in my own jenara list.
Well... I hope that helped you out. I also recently shifted my Skyshroud Claim into being a Time Warp which was a better draw beyond turn 4 as well as still being capable of ramping me to a 6 mana creature at the same timeframe.
I also wouldn't completely rule out Explore. I think it is a nice ramp effect and while this deck cant really abuse it it cycles quickly which makes it solid in the late game and it ramps lands in the early. I have actually been sort of fumbling with the thought of adding it to my own list... It is really under utilized.
The land swap sounds just fine. Manipulate the utility lands for what you encounter and need to fight. I have been having tons of fun personally with Winding Canyons which has payed out very nicely for me.
Isn't Wood Elves better than the Dryad? Sure, it's not evasive, but the land doesn't ETBT and you can't get the effect Willbendered.
I like Collar on the offense actually. People hate blocking Deathtouchers, and the lifegain makes it easier to play more aggressively. Plus, it's just completely boss on Akroma, letting her tangle with anything, no matter how large, as long as it isn't pro-white or indestructible, and making every attack a 12 point life swing. YMMV I guess.
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The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
Isn't Wood Elves better than the Dryad? Sure, it's not evasive, but the land doesn't ETBT and you can't get the effect Willbendered.
I like Collar on the offense actually. People hate blocking Deathtouchers, and the lifegain makes it easier to play more aggressively. Plus, it's just completely boss on Akroma, letting her tangle with anything, no matter how large, as long as it isn't pro-white or indestructible, and making every attack a 12 point life swing. YMMV I guess.
Wood Elves is strictly better than the Dryad. However that wasn't what was being discussed and I thought he already had that on his list however I could be wrong.
I dont really see a problem with collar however I also dont have anything in my own list that I would really want to cut to include it. Generally speaking I dont really bother swinging for 2-3 damage with utility ETB guys. It is a possibility however taking 2-3 damage isnt really worrysome in EDH in the firstplace and I doubt anyone would be panicking from it. If you put it on a big fatty that could be chumped it will probably still be chumped. This is sort of my problem with the card is that it doesnt really give anything more than little chumps some evasion which hardly add up anytime soon. It might go further in your Angus deck due to having some more drawn out games due to mr turbofog though.
Akroma + the collar would be a ton of fun but not enough that I feel like I need to include the collar.
EDIT: I went back and checked the post about the land ramp and he mentioned running Wood Elves which is why I didn't bother mentioning them.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
thanks ISB for the tips. I agree with the Dryad 1st...as you can clamp, venser, attack, block, chord, equip it etc etc.
No one plays LD in my group with the exception of Strip Mine, Dustbowl (they only target utility lands), and the an occasional Obliterate.
I would treat Time Warp separately than Skyshroud. Skyshroud ramps you to 7 mana at worst turn 5. Whereas Time Warp is being cast at worst turn 5. Both are great cards..I just think they are different.
thanks ISB for the tips. I agree with the Dryad 1st...as you can clamp, venser, attack, block, chord, equip it etc etc.
No one plays LD in my group with the exception of Strip Mine, Dustbowl (they only target utility lands), and the an occasional Obliterate.
I would treat Time Warp separately than Skyshroud. Skyshroud ramps you to 7 mana at worst turn 5. Whereas Time Warp is being cast at worst turn 5. Both are great cards..I just think they are different.
I think the decision on Time Warp was viewed as something along the lines of Explore. It allows you to play an extra land, and draw an extra card so in a sense it's a more expensive explore. It also doubles as giving another untap step and another combat step, which can really seal games later on. Like you said, different but it's something!
I like the basilisk collar discussion though, I may end up cutting Sword of Feast and Famine for that. I never end up wanting to play that sword over fire and ice. Maybe because I never draw it when I want to be aggressive. Ooohh or maybe batterskull. A friend that I play with always tells everyone at the table to attack me when I play this deck, and normally everyone at the table attacks me. It's funny playing a 2 or 3v1 for a while, because people generally scoop out of frustration. But it really hurts my life total. Every time I make it to the single digits, is right about when I win. *shrug*
thanks ISB for the tips. I agree with the Dryad 1st...as you can clamp, venser, attack, block, chord, equip it etc etc.
No one plays LD in my group with the exception of Strip Mine, Dustbowl (they only target utility lands), and the an occasional Obliterate.
I would treat Time Warp separately than Skyshroud. Skyshroud ramps you to 7 mana at worst turn 5. Whereas Time Warp is being cast at worst turn 5. Both are great cards..I just think they are different.
I agree that Time Warp operates very differently from skyshroud. In an opening hand / early in the game Time Warp will ramp worse however it also gives me a much better card later into the game. I also really love it considering how quickly I can get Jenara online so if I want I can really surprise someone by hitting them extra hard early on in the game. I am giving up a little bit in the early game with this for a stronger card later on. It is still mostly cheap to cast and if I am trying to hit a titan I am still getting to 6 mana the same time as I would be with Skyshroud, but like you said when I am trying to get to 7+ it is a little slower.
I think the decision on Time Warp was viewed as something along the lines of Explore. It allows you to play an extra land, and draw an extra card so in a sense it's a more expensive explore. It also doubles as giving another untap step and another combat step, which can really seal games later on. Like you said, different but it's something!
I like the basilisk collar discussion though, I may end up cutting Sword of Feast and Famine for that. I never end up wanting to play that sword over fire and ice. Maybe because I never draw it when I want to be aggressive. Ooohh or maybe batterskull. A friend that I play with always tells everyone at the table to attack me when I play this deck, and normally everyone at the table attacks me. It's funny playing a 2 or 3v1 for a while, because people generally scoop out of frustration. But it really hurts my life total. Every time I make it to the single digits, is right about when I win. *shrug*
I actually tried Batterskull and I would probably advise against it. It costs tons of mana to cast and tons to equip. It is blown up easily and not recurred very easily. Basilisk Collar has a lot of things going for it such as being tutorable off of Trinket Mage and Tezzeret, it can be rezed off of Sun Titan as well and it is super cheap to equip. Paying 5 to equip something is often a whole turn. I just feel like it is too slow to really manipulate effectively. I don't mind it in a mono color deck where CA is a bit harder to come by but I don't like it as much in this type of deck.
All that being said I would sort of view Basilisk Collar as more of a defensive card rather than an offensive card. People dont want to swing good creatures into a 1/1 deathtouch. The lifelink can be useful but really only when you start looking at swinging with larger creatures that will gain more than 2 life.
In my opinion deathtouch in this deck is a defensive mechanism, and lifelink is an offensive mechinism.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
So, after a brief conversation in the general Commander forums, I thought it was time I run this train of thought through here.
I'm highly considering testing Mystical Tutor in this deck, mostly as a way to get my hands on my wrath effects more consistently in a meta that's full of token decks, Sedris spewing half his deck onto the battlefield with Living Death, Rafiq and company beating face, etc. One of the advantages I see is that I don't necessarily want a wrath, or worse two wraths (which would be increasingly likely if I added another 1-2 to the deck), showing up in my opening hand, as they would pretty much be auto-mulls. On the other hand, Mystical Tutor showing up in my opening hand is just fine, and I can hold onto it until I need to go grab a wrath. Moreover, I can use it to go grab a counter, or a creature tutor, or any number of things depending on the situation. I just feel that it would bring another level of consistency and versatility to the deck.
Enlightened Tutor and Worldly Tutor don't really merit consideration, as we have such better options in both slots.
I personally dont really have much of a problem with my wrath effects. I throw chump bodies at the problem until I can find a more permenant solution generally speaking.
You might consider doing the following as well: Praetor's Counsel -> Knowledge Exploitation I have found that Knowledge Exploitation is a very nicely rounded card. If you need a wrath then you might go for a Decree of Pain or another Austere Command off of an opponent. I have used it as a game ender as well several times with Insurrection or some sort of mass LD to seal the game.
Another option might be to consider Ixidron. Ammo has been running it and he has been praising it since adding it. I think it is an interesting creature considering how easily it could be tutored up / recurred with this deck. I have been meaning to give it a spin sometime as well and I think it has some solid potential.
Mystical Tutor is decent and I dont think it would be a bad add however I just dont like giving up CA even if it is to tutor for some spells that are normally hard for me to find. Generally speaking most of my spells are nice to draw but not necesities of the deck. If you find that more wraths are needed for your deck to operate then I suppose it is an option. However I still tend to value card advantage a bit much to consider the swap myself. I really dont like how these tutors operate when you topdeck them as generally speaking you need a draw outlet or to wait until the EOT before utilizing them. However, out of the three tutor options I think that Mystical is the most appropriate out of the bunch.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I personally dont really have much of a problem with my wrath effects. I throw chump bodies at the problem until I can find a more permenant solution generally speaking.
Yeah, and generally that's not a problem, but since a guy in my playgroup started running Wonder in his Sedris, the Traitor King deck, I keep getting beat in the face with huge, flying Sundering Titans and Wurmcoil Engines and Eldrazi and such, which has lead me to discover just how few flying creatures I have to block with. I suppose the solution there, though, isn't more wraths; it's that I need to finally get a stupid $1 Tormod's Crypt :embarrass:. For shame...
You might consider doing the following as well: Praetor's Counsel -> Knowledge Exploitation I have found that Knowledge Exploitation is a very nicely rounded card. If you need a wrath then you might go for a Decree of Pain or another Austere Command off of an opponent. I have used it as a game ender as well several times with Insurrection or some sort of mass LD to seal the game.
Yeah Counsel is on the relatively long list of cards that I've been displeased with on the whole, and are coming out ASAP. It's probably lost me more games than it's won me (because that number is 0), as I have a handful of crap that I have to pay to cast and everyone thinks I'm going to win the game so they all attack me/blow up my stuff/counter everything. I'm thinking of adding Tooth and Nail to slam late-game finishers, although I know you've argued against it elsewhere.
Another option might be to consider Ixidron. Ammo has been running it and he has been praising it since adding it. I think it is an interesting creature considering how easily it could be tutored up / recurred with this deck. I have been meaning to give it a spin sometime as well and I think it has some solid potential.
An interesting option, especially considering I've been finding myself a little light in the 5-drop slot for Birthing Pod.
Mystical Tutor is decent and I dont think it would be a bad add however I just dont like giving up CA even if it is to tutor for some spells that are normally hard for me to find. Generally speaking most of my spells are nice to draw but not necesities of the deck. If you find that more wraths are needed for your deck to operate then I suppose it is an option. However I still tend to value card advantage a bit much to consider the swap myself. I really dont like how these tutors operate when you topdeck them as generally speaking you need a draw outlet or to wait until the EOT before utilizing them. However, out of the three tutor options I think that Mystical is the most appropriate out of the bunch.
The more I think through these things, the more I think you might be right, here. I'm picking one up in a trade today (hopefully), so I'll probably run it for a while and see how it feels. It does just *seem* a little out of place for a deck that likes to press the advantage when and where possible, but the potential EoT goodness is keeping me interested in it for now.
Knowledge Exploitation would be great in this kind of deck. I used to run Praetor's Grasp when my ETB deck was 5 color. I'd happily pay 7 for that card, it was never bad.
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"A little nonsense now and then is cherished by the wisest men."
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The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I'm thinking of adding Tooth and Nail to slam late-game finishers, although I know you've argued against it elsewhere.
T&N is still a perfectly viable win condition, but as none of the creatures in your list have haste, and there's no way aside from Akroma's Memorial to give global haste it's a bit questionable and less of a win con since you have to pass the turn and you give opponents an opportunity to respond to your threats at sorcery speed. You could always set up the rev combo with it. I'm assuming you would have most of the pieces you need already in grave, just tutor for whatever other pieces you would require at that point. I found it a lot more exciting in Jund where I had access to several mass haste effects.
A few things though shoop
A) Enlightened tutor is amazing as well. I'm not sure (too lazy to go to OP) but I think Pathfinder runs it as well. Pod and Survival are your worldly tutors. Except they tutor for whatever you want, once a turn, for as long as it remains in play. So if you can enlightened tutor for your worldly tutor your deck is in pretty good shape.
B) There's a fair amount of cards in your deck (I know you mentioned you need to make a lot of changes) that aren't necessarily stopping these threats that you're mentioning. I would say that it would be hard to really determine how useful mystical tutor would be if your deck isn't in its most useful place.
1 Leyline of Anticipation: Doesn't do anything by itself
1 Marshal's Anthem: Can recur you a bunch of creatures late game or make you tap out for nothing if it gets countered, but doesn't set you up to do anything else early.
1 Finest Hour: Can be a huge Jenara swing, but mandates creatures.
1 Praetor's Counsel: Previously discussed
1 Ghostway: Also mandates lots of creatures to be useful
1 Momentary Blink: Mandates creatures
1 Condemn: I guess this is for budget reasons. But path / swords would stop all the sedris nonsense before he could unearth everything. Just put both of them in here, and that way you don't have to wait until Sedris swings. Which he won't. (Most likely)
1 Cauldron of Souls: Mandates lots of creatures
1 Fellwar Stone: Uhh?
1 Sunblast Angel: A wrath on a dude which is cool, but if stuff already swung at you whats the point?
1 Mistmeadow Witch: A mana intensive bounce spell that again requires that you have other creatures.
Some of these cards have been mentioned before either here or in your thread. Some of these cards are good, and I would keep in my deck. HOWEVER if you're consistently losing games to one type of strategy I would strongly consider changing your deck up to be a bit more resilient in general, and I would also take out the cards that don't necessarily do anything by themselves. From that point if you can increase your win % I would work backwards and try to find some more pet cards that work really well in your meta. An example of that could be something like ghostway or mistmeadow, while both good cards that can excel you into the late game. They are just mana dumps that sit on your hand or on the field until have other things in which to use them with.
Like I said I know you have a long list of cards that you're in the process of cutting and most of these if not all have already been mentioned. But I'd start axing the things that aren't self sufficient. That includes the creatures, but I didn't feel like delving into that. Also keep in mind that Enlightened Tutor will help you bump out that early pod or early survival of the fittest, which could be even more important than juicing up that wrath. If sedris comes into play and he has some mana left over, you can bet your ass that if he passes turn traumatize or something silly is coming out next turn to dump a bunch of nonsense in the grave and then swing it at your face. I would also assume at that point that the creatures would likely be going away at the end of his turn (albeit I know they don't have to).
It sounds more to me like you're having trouble answering individual things more than requiring to wrath. I play against a lot of aggro strategies in my meta so I was originally running something like 6 wraths to ISB's 3. Something I didn't account for however, is that this deck is capable of answering EVERYTHING and it's pretty infrequently that I even need to wrath after being able to manipulate the board that frequently. That said, I do still run 4 wraths however with the 4th being Rout and the potential 5th being knowledge exploitation if necessary. Wrath of God at instant speed if necessary makes me pleased.
Exploitation is something like a dollar rare, I'd pick that up if I were you. You may also consider grabbing a Recurring Insight as you don't run Consecrated Sphinx. While it's not a creature for you to clone, recur, and abuse it happens once stuffing a ton of crap in your hand, happens once more, then probably goes into the grave never to be seen again. The incredible card draw off of cards like this would then make getting to your wraths, AND EVERYTHING ELSE, much easier. Scavenging Ooze, albeit a little expensive, would probably be amazing in your meta.
"I will unearth this guy."
"In response I will pay 1 green to exile it."
"In response I will unearth it again."
"I'll pay 1 green again."
"Unearth again?"
"Paying one more green?"
"Unearth one last time?"
"Sure you got it."
Granted at that point you would have 1 big dude coming your way. But since unearth costs a lot more than G you can effectively limit sedris by how much green mana you have at instant speed.
Furthermore your instant speed spot removal is a bit shoddy since you're lacking swords to plowshares and path to exile. You're also not running winding canyons, so truly you have 7 ways to stop something from happening. 4 of which happen to be counters, there's bant charm, oblation, and beast within. So assuming something resolves you have 3 ways to get rid of it and one is pretty specific.
To summarize: I don't think it's the wrath effects that need tutoring. You could run additional wraths but I agree with ISB that it's just going to dilute the deck and be not completely necessary. Instead I would get rid of cards that aren't necessarily doing anything by themselves, and replace them with ones that can function alone. The aforementioned Swords, Path, Recurring, Canyons, Ooze (albeit expensive), Knowledge, etc. would really help your spot removal and card draw along in getting to the point where the deck can function in its more budget state until you can start replacing some of the 'weaker' cards to be more effective.
I suppose this should have went in your thread, but I felt it was relevant.
Edit: By the way I have a ton of Swords to Plowshares if you need to do a trade. PM me if you do!
My brother equipped Rafiq with an Umezawa's Jitte with two counters, a Sword of Fire and Ice, and Lightning Greaves and swung with 2 exalted triggers in the late game, killing my Diaochan, Artful Beauty deck in one shot out of nowhere yesterday. It can be pretty brutal.
By comparison, Jenara, Asura of War just has cool art. To get a similar effect with Jenara, you'd need to do all of the above and then spend 24 mana to add 12 counters to her to kill in one shot. You can't even justify her as a slow-build general, since everything gets killed within a few turns in most games. There's just no comparison.
My brother equipped Rafiq with an Umezawa's Jitte with two counters, a Sword of Fire and Ice, and Lightning Greaves and swung with 2 exalted triggers in the late game, killing my Diaochan, Artful Beauty deck in one shot out of nowhere yesterday. It can be pretty brutal.
By comparison, Jenara, Asura of War just has cool art. To get a similar effect with Jenara, you'd need to do all of the above and then spend 24 mana to add 12 counters to her to kill in one shot. You can't even justify her as a slow-build general, since everything gets killed within a few turns in most games. There's just no comparison.
I mean, it has cool art... but c'mon.
Actually the big difference is that Jenara needs no buffs at all to be deadly. When I look at it Jenara recovers a lot better from things such as board sweepers that take out artifacts and such. Rafiq requires his toys to operate and as such when his toys get targeted he suffers.
Jenara also has built in evasion which is incredibly effective. Rafiq often needs some sort of protection / trample / or other such evasion to connect. I find that in good metas people will target rafiq's toys and just chump block him from there.
I respect rafiq players however I think the big difference is generally speaking the direction of the decks. Rafiq decks tend to be built arround hitting in fast and hard to kill people in the early game. Jenara scales better into the lategame in my own opinion due to not needing those "Toys" that rafiq needs to connect for real damage. Later in the game I will often bring Jenara in and 2 shot people as I dont utilize her a ton during my games so usually I bring her out at 3 mana then when I hit like 12 mana or so I will bring her back out once people have used up a lot of their removal. At this point I am probably going to connect for 8 -10 in my first connect due to the fact that she is cheap and I will be able to pump her several times the turn she comes in if I want to.
No offense to rafiq players but Jenara just requires a ton less support in play to operate. This allows me to run a lot less support for her and build my deck around being a solid goodstuff deck in my opinion. Not to say rafiq is bad at what he does but he just operates differently. It is comparing Apples to Oranges. Rafiq is superior at killing people swiftly but in my opinion he scales into the game a bit worse due to his dependance on equipment. Removeal of equipment can be rough for him.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
A rafiq deck that is dead without it's "toys" is a bad Rafiq deck.
You're making a sweeping generalization that every deck that runs Rafiq is a Voltron deck. I mean, literally, take YOUR current decklist and take out Jenara and put in Rafiq, and it's a better deck. Because now, your creatures swing for 2x as much in bursts of intense damage. Your Akroma, Angel of Wrath is now a life total swing of 14 instead of 6.
You already run Stoneforge Mystic and two swords, which is MORE than my Rafiq deck runs. Add 4 cards: Finest Hour, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Eldrazi Conscription, and Might of Oaks. All these cards are great on their own, and all of them make Rafiq a constant, absolutely 100% lethal threat at any time.
I think if you critique my deck you need to understand that it is not the Voltron deck you keep describing. Having Flying is not the end-all be-all of Evasion, and it does not, by any means, mean that your general does more damage than mine.
I would put anything to the point that in the average game of EDH, in any meta, Rafiq will deal more damage to the opponent than Jenara. If you count the extra damage Rafiq gives to OTHER creatures (and yes- many have Flying) then I would argue this difference is astronomical.
You're making a sweeping generalization that every deck that runs Rafiq is a Voltron deck. I mean, literally, take YOUR current decklist and take out Jenara and put in Rafiq, and it's a better deck. Because now, your creatures swing for 2x as much in bursts of intense damage. Your Akroma, Angel of Wrath is now a life total swing of 14 instead of 6.
I would put anything to the point that in the average game of EDH, in any meta, Rafiq will deal more damage to the opponent than Jenara. If you count the extra damage Rafiq gives to OTHER creatures (and yes- many have Flying) then I would argue this difference is astronomical.
I essentially ran ISB's Jenara/ETB decklist with Rafiq at the helm for a long time. Rafiq is tremendously powerful, but he has gaping weaknesses you need to consider. In my meta, flying commanders win. Kaalia is a minor example; though my Rafiq never won a game against Olivia Voldaren. A cheap flyer who can steal my general and use his Exalted bonus to kill me? Rafiqs evasion isn't the issue; unless it's your combat phase, he's a vanilla 3/3 legend. Jenara is more versatile in that respect.
In both of the quoted examples, you say "creatures," plural. Exalted only effects one creature per combat phase (twice if you have Finest Hour and still swing with only one creature). Not being able to swing with more than one guy and get that juicy bonus is part of why Rafiq is referred to as a "Voltron" style general. If Rafiq actually granted Doublestrike (and/or +1/+1) to ALL of your attacking creatures, his superiority would never be in question. One creature, per combat. Usually Rafiq, and he'll require either evasion or trample, otherwise he'd simply be chump-blocked and your entire attack phase is wasted.
When I won with Rafiq, it was usually with Stormtide Leviathan and Finest Hour. No one in my meta will allow an enchanted or equipped Rafiq make it to damage resolution. It would never happen. I have to be on the side of Jenara between the two. Rafiq is a different deck.
The reason that I dont bother with rafiq is that I believe that Jenara is a better standalone threat. I agree that it is possible to hit people good by dropping rafiq into play and hitting someone with a threat but the point of my deck is to have standalone threats. Most of my creatures if they connect for damage it is nice but I dont run a ton of evasive beaters outside of like Primeval Titan and Akroma, Angel of Wrath. Now it is nice to have rafiq in play when swinging with these guys however I utilize jenara as she can swing on her own and do really good results on her own. I find that Rafiq is much easier to block due to lack of evasion as well as the fact that generally if you are banking off of rafiq as a buff you want more designated beaters. He requires to be played around a bit more. It is true that there are some decent beaters that he does scale up nicely however if I plan on playing rafiq and swinging out with a Sun Titan it will probably just be chumped. If I swing in with a mulldrifter I probably dont care about doing a few more damage. My point in this is that if I was banking on that buff I would want less utility and card advantage guys and more guys that have evasion and trample to connect for big damage. Rafiq tends to turn a bit more centralizing and you work arround him more. Jenara on the other hand needs nothing but some mana to utilize to make her good.
Again I am not trying to bash anyone who plays rafiq so don't take this as a personal assault. In my opinion though, you want some specific creature / equipment selections in your deck when you pick rafiq to try to blow people up. In my jenara deck for instance I wouldn't run really any infect creatures however in rafiq it becomes more of an option as you can hit harder with them. My whole point here is that rafiq often ends up being built around even in the slightest he usually does. The creatures in my own list would not be very impressive when trying to swing with rafiq's buff. The swords would trigger nicely and another 2-3 creatures would be decent but my point here is that rafiq does sort of want to be built around a bit more. Jenara requires less support from her deck which allows her to operate on her own more especially if you start running low on resources or it gets late into the game and things have just been blown up too much.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Just chiming in since I run a similar deck, these sorts of decks function quite well without the commander. Therefore, what you really want is a commander who is at it's maximum effectiveness on it's own, so that it doesn't interfere with the deck design. For my own deck, I went with the more controlling option of Angus Mackenzie, helping me to stabilize and let the deck do its thing. For ISBPathfinder, he gets a solid plan B that requires no internal support. Rafiq needs more internal support to maximize his effectiveness, and really wants to be plan A for the deck, not plan B or support.
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Just chiming in since I run a similar deck, these sorts of decks function quite well without the commander. Therefore, what you really want is a commander who is at it's maximum effectiveness on it's own, so that it doesn't interfere with the deck design. For my own deck, I went with the more controlling option of Angus Mackenzie, helping me to stabilize and let the deck do its thing. For ISBPathfinder, he gets a solid plan B that requires no internal support. Rafiq needs more internal support to maximize his effectiveness, and really wants to be plan A for the deck, not plan B or support.
I agree with Rafiq wanting to be a plan A more than a plan B. There is nothing wrong with running rafiq but I don't think he just drops into the same list seamlessly. He wants some things to work with him rather than being a solid standalone finisher. Sure there are some creatures and situations where you can drop him in and win but usually you want some things built around him.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
First off, let me clarify that by pluralizing creatures, I just meant that any of your creatures has the potential to be the threat. There's a joke in my meta that Birds of Paradise is potentially the most dangerous creature in a Rafiq deck if left unchecked, because everything is a "threat."
This joke is a direct result of my penchant for dropping rafiq as an opportunistic pump spell, rather than a threat himself.
I agree with the standalone commander thing. I think Killane's choice to go with Angus Mackenzie is probably wiser than Jenara, since Jenara is the definition of a vanilla beater. She can't protect herself, and dumping mana into her so she can get killed or bounced opens you up to getting blown out by your opponents. It's like getting time-walked if you spend time pumping her (I'll assume you're wise enough to do it at EOT with your spare mana, though).
Jenara is good, I just am not convinced that she's better.
Me personally, I like Rafiq because with an investment of like, 5 cards- some swords and a Sovereigns of Lost Alara, and a Finest Hour- I have explosive potential.
Explosive potential is unignorable. If your opponent is locking out a game, setting up to do 20+ damage in a single turn opportunistically is strong, in my meta this is especially true. The second my opponents tap out or spend their boardsweep, I can slam down two or three cards and get in for lethal, or close to it, and I love those types of games. It's rewarding and effective. The fact that the rest of my deck is (essentially) the same power level as yours due to strong individual, standalone cards means I can use that 5-card investment of general-dependent cards as an alternate plan of victory.
Is Rafiq strong as Plan A? Sure, and almost everyone uses him as Plan A. But this is not the only way to play him, and I don't feel like I'm missing out on potential since I don't fall prey to the same pitfalls as the average Rafiq deck.
I value all of these opinions a lot, you guys know this archetype well. This conversation is very stimulating.
You know, it's funny you should say Angus seems better. I've questioned that myself a number of times. He doesn't give me a plan B, he just supports plan A. now, in my metagame and with my play style, plan A is good enough that I don't want or need plan B, but with Angus, I just don't even have the option.
Jenara is terribly weak against Grimgrin, who sees allot of play in my area. Other than that, I've often felt that I'm biased toward Angus more based on personal taste than power level. There's no question he's good, but I think in mature metagames this deck really does want a plan B.
The five slots that the Rafiq package takes though - that's seems small, but in my experience it's really not. 5 slots is a whole recursion package, ramp engine, or draw engine. 5 slots is the entire Meleira combo, or tutor suite. The issue that i have with these particular 5 slots is that they don't synergize with the rest of the deck. The Melira combo has explosive power like you're discussing - you assemble 3 cards out of nowhere and all of a sudden your opponent has nothing but his creatures left in play. Even on a limited sac outlet like Claws of Gix, you get: pay X, destroy X target nonland permanets, gain X life, which is really nutty. And the pieces all have synergy with the rest of the deck. that's the key difference that I see- Jenara is an isolated plan B that makes no demands on the deck, but is less explosive. Rafiq is a non-isolated plan B that detracts from synergy.
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EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Yeah, of the two Ghostway is definitely better. I run both, but it's a taste thing. If I had to cut one, it would be the Witch.
@ ISBPathfinder
Have you ever considered Basilisk Collar? your deck is pretty aggro oriented and the collar makes combat a nightmare for your opponents, and gains an amount of life that actualyl becomes relevant. Plus, collar on Akroma is so boss it's not even funny.
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I am running a more High CC list than yours...with more endgame spells. So I am need of more ramp. I currently use, Sakura Tribe Elder, Sol Ring, Wood Elves, Farhaven Elf, Solemn Simulacrum, Skyshroud Claim.
Seeing that..pick 2-3 of these 7 and let me know what you would run.
Yavimaya Druid
Yavimaya Elder
Cultivate
Kodama's Reach
Darksteel Ingot
Coalition Relic
Mind Stone
Also, I am removing High Market from my list...we don't have much creature theft and it rarely teams up with Skullclamp. I am gonna run Dust Bowl..just because Maze of Ith, Cabal Coffers and Strongholds are running rampant.
Sorry I missed the Basilisk Collar question earlier apparently. I would say that the use of this type of equipment is a bit questionable. I could see it being good on defense however I dont feel I really have a problem defending myself. If you see more big fattie types of creatures that swing at you I coul see it I guess. The big implimentation in my mind would be to block some annoyin shroud guys (yes I mean you Uril, the Miststalker) Generally speaking though it doesnt really generate all that much card advantage though but I like that it is cheap and gives another Trinket Mage target. Overall though I just havent ever felt like I needed it in my deck.
I could see it being sort of a "fun card" but I dont really see its utility as a necessity.
Yavimaya Dryad I am actually utilizing it myself and while I havent seen huge game breaking things from it, it has worked just fine for me so far. The evasion it has is occasionally useful for poking at people or for swinging with swords as well. I like keeping my ramp creature based when I can which gives me room to abuse them in all my usual ways.
Cultivate / Kodama's Reach they work just fine. I stopped using these some time back due to the fact that they are hard to abuse and when drawn late in a game they can really suck. However they do the job just fine and as long as you aren't worried about mass LD I think they work fine.
Darksteel Ingot I like this as sort of a cheap fix that is hard to remove. It is good against mass LD if that is at all something you need to worry about. If people dont do much for artifact sweepers or target mana stones in your meta then Coalition Relic is better. Generally speaking though if you dont have problems setting up your manabase and people arent running mass LD though I would go with Cultivate / Kodama's Reach before I went to the mana stones.
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As for the other ones:
Yavimaya Elder I have always been disappointed in the fact that he doesn't actually ramp and he is so clunky and expensive to manipulate. He works ok if you need some CA in like mono green or something but I find him utterly unimpressive otherwise.
Mind Stone colorless mana is a lot less reliable in this deck in my opinion especially in the early game. I want to set up my manabase quickly and the fact that this only taps for colorless is a bit dissapointing. If you have a really solid landbase I suppose you can utilize it however I am still a bit uneasy utilizing fast colorless mana in my own jenara list.
Well... I hope that helped you out. I also recently shifted my Skyshroud Claim into being a Time Warp which was a better draw beyond turn 4 as well as still being capable of ramping me to a 6 mana creature at the same timeframe.
I also wouldn't completely rule out Explore. I think it is a nice ramp effect and while this deck cant really abuse it it cycles quickly which makes it solid in the late game and it ramps lands in the early. I have actually been sort of fumbling with the thought of adding it to my own list... It is really under utilized.
The land swap sounds just fine. Manipulate the utility lands for what you encounter and need to fight. I have been having tons of fun personally with Winding Canyons which has payed out very nicely for me.
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[Modern] Allies
I like Collar on the offense actually. People hate blocking Deathtouchers, and the lifegain makes it easier to play more aggressively. Plus, it's just completely boss on Akroma, letting her tangle with anything, no matter how large, as long as it isn't pro-white or indestructible, and making every attack a 12 point life swing. YMMV I guess.
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Wood Elves is strictly better than the Dryad. However that wasn't what was being discussed and I thought he already had that on his list however I could be wrong.
I dont really see a problem with collar however I also dont have anything in my own list that I would really want to cut to include it. Generally speaking I dont really bother swinging for 2-3 damage with utility ETB guys. It is a possibility however taking 2-3 damage isnt really worrysome in EDH in the firstplace and I doubt anyone would be panicking from it. If you put it on a big fatty that could be chumped it will probably still be chumped. This is sort of my problem with the card is that it doesnt really give anything more than little chumps some evasion which hardly add up anytime soon. It might go further in your Angus deck due to having some more drawn out games due to mr turbofog though.
Akroma + the collar would be a ton of fun but not enough that I feel like I need to include the collar.
EDIT: I went back and checked the post about the land ramp and he mentioned running Wood Elves which is why I didn't bother mentioning them.
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[Modern] Allies
No one plays LD in my group with the exception of Strip Mine, Dustbowl (they only target utility lands), and the an occasional Obliterate.
I would treat Time Warp separately than Skyshroud. Skyshroud ramps you to 7 mana at worst turn 5. Whereas Time Warp is being cast at worst turn 5. Both are great cards..I just think they are different.
I think the decision on Time Warp was viewed as something along the lines of Explore. It allows you to play an extra land, and draw an extra card so in a sense it's a more expensive explore. It also doubles as giving another untap step and another combat step, which can really seal games later on. Like you said, different but it's something!
I like the basilisk collar discussion though, I may end up cutting Sword of Feast and Famine for that. I never end up wanting to play that sword over fire and ice. Maybe because I never draw it when I want to be aggressive. Ooohh or maybe batterskull. A friend that I play with always tells everyone at the table to attack me when I play this deck, and normally everyone at the table attacks me. It's funny playing a 2 or 3v1 for a while, because people generally scoop out of frustration. But it really hurts my life total. Every time I make it to the single digits, is right about when I win. *shrug*
I agree that Time Warp operates very differently from skyshroud. In an opening hand / early in the game Time Warp will ramp worse however it also gives me a much better card later into the game. I also really love it considering how quickly I can get Jenara online so if I want I can really surprise someone by hitting them extra hard early on in the game. I am giving up a little bit in the early game with this for a stronger card later on. It is still mostly cheap to cast and if I am trying to hit a titan I am still getting to 6 mana the same time as I would be with Skyshroud, but like you said when I am trying to get to 7+ it is a little slower.
I actually tried Batterskull and I would probably advise against it. It costs tons of mana to cast and tons to equip. It is blown up easily and not recurred very easily. Basilisk Collar has a lot of things going for it such as being tutorable off of Trinket Mage and Tezzeret, it can be rezed off of Sun Titan as well and it is super cheap to equip. Paying 5 to equip something is often a whole turn. I just feel like it is too slow to really manipulate effectively. I don't mind it in a mono color deck where CA is a bit harder to come by but I don't like it as much in this type of deck.
All that being said I would sort of view Basilisk Collar as more of a defensive card rather than an offensive card. People dont want to swing good creatures into a 1/1 deathtouch. The lifelink can be useful but really only when you start looking at swinging with larger creatures that will gain more than 2 life.
In my opinion deathtouch in this deck is a defensive mechanism, and lifelink is an offensive mechinism.
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[Modern] Allies
I'm highly considering testing Mystical Tutor in this deck, mostly as a way to get my hands on my wrath effects more consistently in a meta that's full of token decks, Sedris spewing half his deck onto the battlefield with Living Death, Rafiq and company beating face, etc. One of the advantages I see is that I don't necessarily want a wrath, or worse two wraths (which would be increasingly likely if I added another 1-2 to the deck), showing up in my opening hand, as they would pretty much be auto-mulls. On the other hand, Mystical Tutor showing up in my opening hand is just fine, and I can hold onto it until I need to go grab a wrath. Moreover, I can use it to go grab a counter, or a creature tutor, or any number of things depending on the situation. I just feel that it would bring another level of consistency and versatility to the deck.
Enlightened Tutor and Worldly Tutor don't really merit consideration, as we have such better options in both slots.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
You might consider doing the following as well: Praetor's Counsel -> Knowledge Exploitation I have found that Knowledge Exploitation is a very nicely rounded card. If you need a wrath then you might go for a Decree of Pain or another Austere Command off of an opponent. I have used it as a game ender as well several times with Insurrection or some sort of mass LD to seal the game.
Another option might be to consider Ixidron. Ammo has been running it and he has been praising it since adding it. I think it is an interesting creature considering how easily it could be tutored up / recurred with this deck. I have been meaning to give it a spin sometime as well and I think it has some solid potential.
Mystical Tutor is decent and I dont think it would be a bad add however I just dont like giving up CA even if it is to tutor for some spells that are normally hard for me to find. Generally speaking most of my spells are nice to draw but not necesities of the deck. If you find that more wraths are needed for your deck to operate then I suppose it is an option. However I still tend to value card advantage a bit much to consider the swap myself. I really dont like how these tutors operate when you topdeck them as generally speaking you need a draw outlet or to wait until the EOT before utilizing them. However, out of the three tutor options I think that Mystical is the most appropriate out of the bunch.
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[Modern] Allies
Yeah, and generally that's not a problem, but since a guy in my playgroup started running Wonder in his Sedris, the Traitor King deck, I keep getting beat in the face with huge, flying Sundering Titans and Wurmcoil Engines and Eldrazi and such, which has lead me to discover just how few flying creatures I have to block with. I suppose the solution there, though, isn't more wraths; it's that I need to finally get a stupid $1 Tormod's Crypt :embarrass:. For shame...
Yeah Counsel is on the relatively long list of cards that I've been displeased with on the whole, and are coming out ASAP. It's probably lost me more games than it's won me (because that number is 0), as I have a handful of crap that I have to pay to cast and everyone thinks I'm going to win the game so they all attack me/blow up my stuff/counter everything. I'm thinking of adding Tooth and Nail to slam late-game finishers, although I know you've argued against it elsewhere.
An interesting option, especially considering I've been finding myself a little light in the 5-drop slot for Birthing Pod.
The more I think through these things, the more I think you might be right, here. I'm picking one up in a trade today (hopefully), so I'll probably run it for a while and see how it feels. It does just *seem* a little out of place for a deck that likes to press the advantage when and where possible, but the potential EoT goodness is keeping me interested in it for now.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
- Willy Wonka
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T&N is still a perfectly viable win condition, but as none of the creatures in your list have haste, and there's no way aside from Akroma's Memorial to give global haste it's a bit questionable and less of a win con since you have to pass the turn and you give opponents an opportunity to respond to your threats at sorcery speed. You could always set up the rev combo with it. I'm assuming you would have most of the pieces you need already in grave, just tutor for whatever other pieces you would require at that point. I found it a lot more exciting in Jund where I had access to several mass haste effects.
A few things though shoop
A) Enlightened tutor is amazing as well. I'm not sure (too lazy to go to OP) but I think Pathfinder runs it as well. Pod and Survival are your worldly tutors. Except they tutor for whatever you want, once a turn, for as long as it remains in play. So if you can enlightened tutor for your worldly tutor your deck is in pretty good shape.
B) There's a fair amount of cards in your deck (I know you mentioned you need to make a lot of changes) that aren't necessarily stopping these threats that you're mentioning. I would say that it would be hard to really determine how useful mystical tutor would be if your deck isn't in its most useful place.
1 Leyline of Anticipation: Doesn't do anything by itself
1 Marshal's Anthem: Can recur you a bunch of creatures late game or make you tap out for nothing if it gets countered, but doesn't set you up to do anything else early.
1 Finest Hour: Can be a huge Jenara swing, but mandates creatures.
1 Praetor's Counsel: Previously discussed
1 Ghostway: Also mandates lots of creatures to be useful
1 Momentary Blink: Mandates creatures
1 Condemn: I guess this is for budget reasons. But path / swords would stop all the sedris nonsense before he could unearth everything. Just put both of them in here, and that way you don't have to wait until Sedris swings. Which he won't. (Most likely)
1 Cauldron of Souls: Mandates lots of creatures
1 Fellwar Stone: Uhh?
1 Sunblast Angel: A wrath on a dude which is cool, but if stuff already swung at you whats the point?
1 Mistmeadow Witch: A mana intensive bounce spell that again requires that you have other creatures.
Some of these cards have been mentioned before either here or in your thread. Some of these cards are good, and I would keep in my deck. HOWEVER if you're consistently losing games to one type of strategy I would strongly consider changing your deck up to be a bit more resilient in general, and I would also take out the cards that don't necessarily do anything by themselves. From that point if you can increase your win % I would work backwards and try to find some more pet cards that work really well in your meta. An example of that could be something like ghostway or mistmeadow, while both good cards that can excel you into the late game. They are just mana dumps that sit on your hand or on the field until have other things in which to use them with.
Like I said I know you have a long list of cards that you're in the process of cutting and most of these if not all have already been mentioned. But I'd start axing the things that aren't self sufficient. That includes the creatures, but I didn't feel like delving into that. Also keep in mind that Enlightened Tutor will help you bump out that early pod or early survival of the fittest, which could be even more important than juicing up that wrath. If sedris comes into play and he has some mana left over, you can bet your ass that if he passes turn traumatize or something silly is coming out next turn to dump a bunch of nonsense in the grave and then swing it at your face. I would also assume at that point that the creatures would likely be going away at the end of his turn (albeit I know they don't have to).
It sounds more to me like you're having trouble answering individual things more than requiring to wrath. I play against a lot of aggro strategies in my meta so I was originally running something like 6 wraths to ISB's 3. Something I didn't account for however, is that this deck is capable of answering EVERYTHING and it's pretty infrequently that I even need to wrath after being able to manipulate the board that frequently. That said, I do still run 4 wraths however with the 4th being Rout and the potential 5th being knowledge exploitation if necessary. Wrath of God at instant speed if necessary makes me pleased.
Exploitation is something like a dollar rare, I'd pick that up if I were you. You may also consider grabbing a Recurring Insight as you don't run Consecrated Sphinx. While it's not a creature for you to clone, recur, and abuse it happens once stuffing a ton of crap in your hand, happens once more, then probably goes into the grave never to be seen again. The incredible card draw off of cards like this would then make getting to your wraths, AND EVERYTHING ELSE, much easier. Scavenging Ooze, albeit a little expensive, would probably be amazing in your meta.
"I will unearth this guy."
"In response I will pay 1 green to exile it."
"In response I will unearth it again."
"I'll pay 1 green again."
"Unearth again?"
"Paying one more green?"
"Unearth one last time?"
"Sure you got it."
Granted at that point you would have 1 big dude coming your way. But since unearth costs a lot more than G you can effectively limit sedris by how much green mana you have at instant speed.
Furthermore your instant speed spot removal is a bit shoddy since you're lacking swords to plowshares and path to exile. You're also not running winding canyons, so truly you have 7 ways to stop something from happening. 4 of which happen to be counters, there's bant charm, oblation, and beast within. So assuming something resolves you have 3 ways to get rid of it and one is pretty specific.
To summarize: I don't think it's the wrath effects that need tutoring. You could run additional wraths but I agree with ISB that it's just going to dilute the deck and be not completely necessary. Instead I would get rid of cards that aren't necessarily doing anything by themselves, and replace them with ones that can function alone. The aforementioned Swords, Path, Recurring, Canyons, Ooze (albeit expensive), Knowledge, etc. would really help your spot removal and card draw along in getting to the point where the deck can function in its more budget state until you can start replacing some of the 'weaker' cards to be more effective.
I suppose this should have went in your thread, but I felt it was relevant.
Edit: By the way I have a ton of Swords to Plowshares if you need to do a trade. PM me if you do!
By comparison, Jenara, Asura of War just has cool art. To get a similar effect with Jenara, you'd need to do all of the above and then spend 24 mana to add 12 counters to her to kill in one shot. You can't even justify her as a slow-build general, since everything gets killed within a few turns in most games. There's just no comparison.
I mean, it has cool art... but c'mon.
Actually the big difference is that Jenara needs no buffs at all to be deadly. When I look at it Jenara recovers a lot better from things such as board sweepers that take out artifacts and such. Rafiq requires his toys to operate and as such when his toys get targeted he suffers.
Jenara also has built in evasion which is incredibly effective. Rafiq often needs some sort of protection / trample / or other such evasion to connect. I find that in good metas people will target rafiq's toys and just chump block him from there.
I respect rafiq players however I think the big difference is generally speaking the direction of the decks. Rafiq decks tend to be built arround hitting in fast and hard to kill people in the early game. Jenara scales better into the lategame in my own opinion due to not needing those "Toys" that rafiq needs to connect for real damage. Later in the game I will often bring Jenara in and 2 shot people as I dont utilize her a ton during my games so usually I bring her out at 3 mana then when I hit like 12 mana or so I will bring her back out once people have used up a lot of their removal. At this point I am probably going to connect for 8 -10 in my first connect due to the fact that she is cheap and I will be able to pump her several times the turn she comes in if I want to.
No offense to rafiq players but Jenara just requires a ton less support in play to operate. This allows me to run a lot less support for her and build my deck around being a solid goodstuff deck in my opinion. Not to say rafiq is bad at what he does but he just operates differently. It is comparing Apples to Oranges. Rafiq is superior at killing people swiftly but in my opinion he scales into the game a bit worse due to his dependance on equipment. Removeal of equipment can be rough for him.
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[Modern] Allies
You're making a sweeping generalization that every deck that runs Rafiq is a Voltron deck. I mean, literally, take YOUR current decklist and take out Jenara and put in Rafiq, and it's a better deck. Because now, your creatures swing for 2x as much in bursts of intense damage. Your Akroma, Angel of Wrath is now a life total swing of 14 instead of 6.
You already run Stoneforge Mystic and two swords, which is MORE than my Rafiq deck runs. Add 4 cards: Finest Hour, Sovereigns of Lost Alara, Eldrazi Conscription, and Might of Oaks. All these cards are great on their own, and all of them make Rafiq a constant, absolutely 100% lethal threat at any time.
I think if you critique my deck you need to understand that it is not the Voltron deck you keep describing. Having Flying is not the end-all be-all of Evasion, and it does not, by any means, mean that your general does more damage than mine.
I would put anything to the point that in the average game of EDH, in any meta, Rafiq will deal more damage to the opponent than Jenara. If you count the extra damage Rafiq gives to OTHER creatures (and yes- many have Flying) then I would argue this difference is astronomical.
And later:
I essentially ran ISB's Jenara/ETB decklist with Rafiq at the helm for a long time. Rafiq is tremendously powerful, but he has gaping weaknesses you need to consider. In my meta, flying commanders win. Kaalia is a minor example; though my Rafiq never won a game against Olivia Voldaren. A cheap flyer who can steal my general and use his Exalted bonus to kill me? Rafiqs evasion isn't the issue; unless it's your combat phase, he's a vanilla 3/3 legend. Jenara is more versatile in that respect.
In both of the quoted examples, you say "creatures," plural. Exalted only effects one creature per combat phase (twice if you have Finest Hour and still swing with only one creature). Not being able to swing with more than one guy and get that juicy bonus is part of why Rafiq is referred to as a "Voltron" style general. If Rafiq actually granted Doublestrike (and/or +1/+1) to ALL of your attacking creatures, his superiority would never be in question. One creature, per combat. Usually Rafiq, and he'll require either evasion or trample, otherwise he'd simply be chump-blocked and your entire attack phase is wasted.
When I won with Rafiq, it was usually with Stormtide Leviathan and Finest Hour. No one in my meta will allow an enchanted or equipped Rafiq make it to damage resolution. It would never happen. I have to be on the side of Jenara between the two. Rafiq is a different deck.
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Again I am not trying to bash anyone who plays rafiq so don't take this as a personal assault. In my opinion though, you want some specific creature / equipment selections in your deck when you pick rafiq to try to blow people up. In my jenara deck for instance I wouldn't run really any infect creatures however in rafiq it becomes more of an option as you can hit harder with them. My whole point here is that rafiq often ends up being built around even in the slightest he usually does. The creatures in my own list would not be very impressive when trying to swing with rafiq's buff. The swords would trigger nicely and another 2-3 creatures would be decent but my point here is that rafiq does sort of want to be built around a bit more. Jenara requires less support from her deck which allows her to operate on her own more especially if you start running low on resources or it gets late into the game and things have just been blown up too much.
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[Modern] Allies
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.
I agree with Rafiq wanting to be a plan A more than a plan B. There is nothing wrong with running rafiq but I don't think he just drops into the same list seamlessly. He wants some things to work with him rather than being a solid standalone finisher. Sure there are some creatures and situations where you can drop him in and win but usually you want some things built around him.
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[Modern] Allies
This joke is a direct result of my penchant for dropping rafiq as an opportunistic pump spell, rather than a threat himself.
I agree with the standalone commander thing. I think Killane's choice to go with Angus Mackenzie is probably wiser than Jenara, since Jenara is the definition of a vanilla beater. She can't protect herself, and dumping mana into her so she can get killed or bounced opens you up to getting blown out by your opponents. It's like getting time-walked if you spend time pumping her (I'll assume you're wise enough to do it at EOT with your spare mana, though).
Jenara is good, I just am not convinced that she's better.
Me personally, I like Rafiq because with an investment of like, 5 cards- some swords and a Sovereigns of Lost Alara, and a Finest Hour- I have explosive potential.
Explosive potential is unignorable. If your opponent is locking out a game, setting up to do 20+ damage in a single turn opportunistically is strong, in my meta this is especially true. The second my opponents tap out or spend their boardsweep, I can slam down two or three cards and get in for lethal, or close to it, and I love those types of games. It's rewarding and effective. The fact that the rest of my deck is (essentially) the same power level as yours due to strong individual, standalone cards means I can use that 5-card investment of general-dependent cards as an alternate plan of victory.
Is Rafiq strong as Plan A? Sure, and almost everyone uses him as Plan A. But this is not the only way to play him, and I don't feel like I'm missing out on potential since I don't fall prey to the same pitfalls as the average Rafiq deck.
I value all of these opinions a lot, you guys know this archetype well. This conversation is very stimulating.
Jenara is terribly weak against Grimgrin, who sees allot of play in my area. Other than that, I've often felt that I'm biased toward Angus more based on personal taste than power level. There's no question he's good, but I think in mature metagames this deck really does want a plan B.
The five slots that the Rafiq package takes though - that's seems small, but in my experience it's really not. 5 slots is a whole recursion package, ramp engine, or draw engine. 5 slots is the entire Meleira combo, or tutor suite. The issue that i have with these particular 5 slots is that they don't synergize with the rest of the deck. The Melira combo has explosive power like you're discussing - you assemble 3 cards out of nowhere and all of a sudden your opponent has nothing but his creatures left in play. Even on a limited sac outlet like Claws of Gix, you get: pay X, destroy X target nonland permanets, gain X life, which is really nutty. And the pieces all have synergy with the rest of the deck. that's the key difference that I see- Jenara is an isolated plan B that makes no demands on the deck, but is less explosive. Rafiq is a non-isolated plan B that detracts from synergy.
- Willy Wonka
The Quote function doesn't work for me on this forum. Sorry for any confusion created.