Yeah, I thought it unloaded for 1 more before I noticed the tap symbol.
EDIT: Made some changes to the decklist in the signature:
Removed:
Utter End
Lim-Dul's Vault
Codex Shredder
Fact or Fiction
Scroll Rack
Most of these are clearly suboptimal choices. FoF is too expensive, Top makes Rack unnecessary.
Added:
Batterskull
Sun Titan
Cryptic Command
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Treasure Cruise
These, too, are suboptimal choices, but they seem better or more fun. Batterskull can be good at aggressive tables, is huge on Inkmoth and Sharuum, and protects planeswalkers, Sun Titan is useful value even if he's not an artifact, Cryptic is there for the draw + bounce and not the counter (gasp!).
I think Tamiyo and Cruise have some potential. Tamiyo can both be bait on a durdly, empty board or can be a windmill slam draw 4-7 on a more active one. If she were 4 mana I'd find her to be a real contender. As for Cruise, past midgame the grave often has enough nonrecurrables and drawing 3 for less than 3 mana is pretty darn good.
Not to be rude, but I don't think this thread was designed with "fair" and "fun" in mind. The thread was designed to optimize Sharuum in either shop or straight combo varianta.
It's your choice to build your deck the way you think it should run. I have no issue with that.
It's not rude at all! I understand that most of that post doesn't apply to the discussion at hand.
However, cards like Codex Shredder, Scroll Rack, Fact or Fiction, and Lim-Dul's Vault show up in builds that attempt to be as optimal as possible, and I think there's relevant discussion there. I also believe that Treasure Cruise has ignored strengths even when we don't like exiling our own cards.
Perhaps I should have simply said that instead of mentioning the suboptimal replacements I chose.
Codex Shredder flat out won me a game last week by allowing my to use bitter ordeal to both gut a combo deck early, and then use it for the combo win itself a few turns later.
I've had great luck with Scroll Rack as well. The only reason it's not in the deck is that my only copy is needed more within my boros deck.
Codex Shredder flat out won me a game last week by allowing my to use bitter ordeal to both gut a combo deck early, and then use it for the combo win itself a few turns later.
I've had great luck with Scroll Rack as well. The only reason it's not in the deck is that my only copy is needed more within my boros deck.
I will definitely test Codex Shredder.
But about Scroll Rack, I found that with Sharuum the hand is quickly emptying. I cannot abuse Scroll Rack as much as in some control strategy that tends to draw more. It is better in my Zedruu deck with Land Tax
Interesting league night....turn 1 twister into a Mox opal off of underground sea mans vault and a monolith....thought I had that game in hand....lost to a very competitive Brago bounce deck. I figured with that big a start I could combo out quickly but it became arch enemy and by the time I drew into business brago had a strong board state. Last 2 out went to final which I won on like turn 15 or something....sharuum was 14 to cast..... Question about priority...I kept having sharuum Get killed upon entering the board which when metamorph entered the field it did not have sharuum as a target so couldn't copy it. I eventually won with jace and Tezz AOB providing indestructible blockers, card advantage and eventually an ult. how can I better play around removal; was priority correct?
Welgo, I saw where you rated Bitteroot's list superior to yours. What did he include that you did not that leads you to believe that? He has Phantasmal Image listed as a combo piece. What is your thought on that?
Shredder spends 1 card and 1 mana to:
- Modify the one or two topdeck tutors in the deck
- Act as a "shuffle effect" for Top and Rack
- Combo with crucible (much less significant if you've seen a fetchland)
- Shut down opposing topdeck tutors
It can also:
- Take a mid to late-game turn to Revive a card
It is cute and it does give value, but I think that value is deceptive and too dependent on having other cards (and is useless when you have certain better chards, like Artificer's Intuition for shuffling). The best part about it is that it's tutorable and can Revive like no other card can, but 6 total mana is just so expensive - just play Open the Vaults or Roar of Reclamation! Bitter Ordealing for the kill is not overwhelmingly the right option in most games.
Perhaps all of you are far better at gauging this card than I am, but I have a suspicion that this card tricks you into thinking its virtual card advantage is what wins you games when the deck is so strong that many other cards would do the same.
I don't consider Shredder to be card advantage, any more than Voyager Staff. Instead, Codex Shredder opens lines of play which I appreciate, and it fits neatly into other engines/interactions with the deck.
Question about priority...I kept having sharuum Get killed upon entering the board which when metamorph entered the field it did not have sharuum as a target so couldn't copy it. I eventually won with jace and Tezz AOB providing indestructible blockers, card advantage and eventually an ult. how can I better play around removal; was priority correct?
The play was correct. For anything to resolve, priority must be passed. If priority is passed back to you (without a response), the trigger or spell would resolve. If an enemy has a response, priority must then be passed again.
The best way to play around hate and removal (in my experience) is sequencing your plays. Another strong skill is learning to 'bait' responses. I will gladly throw a Sun Titan in my yard to force a Tormod's Crypt, knowing that the Gift of immortality I am going to follow up with will put me even further ahead. The third skill I trained myself on is 'knowing how to function outside of your combo, as well as with the loss of your engines'. This involves mastering play without access to your general and key components of the deck. For example, Jostin will easily use 3 triggers of Bitter ordeal to Cap my Aura Shards, Austere Command and something like Angel of Finality or Scavenging Ooze. Knowing this, I have learned to hamstring him and keep him off of wins without those cards.
Its all a matter of knowing your build inside and out. Master your lines of play. Optimize all angles of attack. Always consider niche plays. It takes time, but with enough games under your belt... you will get there.
Even with the format being singleton in nature, competitive decks are redundant enough to take on this task. It is difficult, but with enough experience with a list... it is not that hard to learn. The biggest detriment to learning this skill, is a lot of people change EDH decks more than they change socks. Without truly devoting enough time and effort into testing and learning applications of cards (and the deck as a whole), progress cannot be made. When a player can learn to leverage the most innocuous of cards, those cards become serious threats. This allows room for opponents to misplay in to your bombs. Even if they do not misplay in to bombs, you can play something simple like it was a bomb.
Take my Saffi list as an example. The 'creature' with the lowest threat levels would be Dryad Arbor. At any random table, opponents would think nothing of it. Yet, anyone I have played against will respect it once it hits the board. They know very well what that little land is capable of in my list.
On scroll rack...I love that card in more control heavy decks but not here. Usually I don't have cards in hand to make it worthwhile. Added notion thief to my list because of my meta...tons of blue and stopping card draw is great. Also good synergy with any wheel effect.
Also a pet card of mine I play him in my 12 post deck in legacy. Keeps everyone fair--and 12 post will ALWAYS win a fair game of magic.
Interestingly got into a minds eye war with an opponent last night where he played his own and we drew to our hearts content.
Question about priority...I kept having sharuum Get killed upon entering the board which when metamorph entered the field it did not have sharuum as a target so couldn't copy it. I eventually won with jace and Tezz AOB providing indestructible blockers, card advantage and eventually an ult. how can I better play around removal; was priority correct?
The play was correct. For anything to resolve, priority must be passed. If priority is passed back to you (without a response), the trigger or spell would resolve. If an enemy has a response, priority must then be passed again.
The best way to play around hate and removal (in my experience) is sequencing your plays. Another strong skill is learning to 'bait' responses. I will gladly throw a Sun Titan in my yard to force a Tormod's Crypt, knowing that the Gift of immortality I am going to follow up with will put me even further ahead. The third skill I trained myself on is 'knowing how to function outside of your combo, as well as with the loss of your engines'. This involves mastering play without access to your general and key components of the deck. For example, Jostin will easily use 3 triggers of Bitter ordeal to Cap my Aura Shards, Austere Command and something like Angel of Finality or Scavenging Ooze. Knowing this, I have learned to hamstring him and keep him off of wins without those cards.
Its all a matter of knowing your build inside and out. Master your lines of play. Optimize all angles of attack. Always consider niche plays. It takes time, but with enough games under your belt... you will get there.
Let's be honest. I haven't brought the deck to your neighborhood in over a year, but if you'd like me to, I can. A few maatches may be in order :-P
I stopped after all the OP debating with the guys. Most of my Sharuum games have taken place at the LGS in Jersey, while I've been recouperating, and have earned the store credit and vintage singles to prove it. It's been helpful as I haven't been playing it vs a stagnant metagame. 2 weeks after my first visit, the resident "pro" had a print-out of my online list from this very thread. Took 2nd that week, and have taken 1st two more times.
Threat assessment and sequencing is important, but so is tight play, and in unknown metagames (like your lgs), tight play and keeping as many lines of opportunity open is a lot stronger than banking and what usually works with your buddies, cuz when those lines of play are cut off, you'll find those crutches we're a disservice.
I took tables with cards they weren't used to playing around, namely Karn Silver golem, Tawnos's coffin, and the -1 on bender to crash in with unblock able field, while the airforce sat back on defense with vigilence. They came prepared for the combo with the printouts and I brought a sloberknocking fistfight. They learned that Station.Has vigilance when it kills a blocker.
Took em to class. Printed lists can't compensate for years of play experience.
I pulled my deck out of mothballs yesterday, and took it up to "EDH night", it was a lot of fun, but it fell to control, one by one my combo pieces were Counterspelled, Bojuka Bogged, and Nihil Spellbombed away until I had nothing left. Does anyone have ideas for playing Engine Sharuum against heavy control?
Sometimes the table just has your number. I've had games where I ate five+ artifact targeted wipes by turn ten before being crypt'd. The deck (value sharuum) is actually already well geared to go against control. Just runn out trinkets and innocuous widgets first. They're useful for defense but not worth countering. Then try baiting counters with dangerous sounding stuff like Time Sieve or Mindslaver before actually playing a real engine card.
Basically, Play for second place until it's time to win.
I play Boseiju to seal the deal on Wrath effects. Its important in my meta, which is aggro heavy, but in the big scheme of things unimportant to the deck. I guess you could hold onto a counter if you're worried about counters. Also, most tuck-based removal aren't counters. Spell Crumple and Hinder are the only tuck-counters as far as I know. I'd really like to know how viable Cavern of Souls is in multiplayer EDH for this deck. I play 3 Sphinxes so it would be somewhat worthwhile but if Sharuum is your only Sphinx it seems like a wasted slot.
Cavern of Souls does not play a major role in the deck. Just like Mindslaver it is a card that I label as a 90/10 card, where 90% of the time, it doesn't have a major effect on the game, but for that last 10%, it blows the game wide open. There are enough blue decks around to warrant it's inclusion in my meta,and I would absolutely run it in my list within a tournament setting because it makes facing Mono U counter/control decks essentially a bye. With regards to what it offers vs the blue match-up: it becomes like playing Bazzar-fueled dredge against a standard control list, completely unfair.
Against the blue match-up, Cavern of Souls or Expedition Map can be mulled into early or tutored for early, before a Mono U opponent has the ability to get UU up for their hard counters. This allows you to get at least one clean Sharuum cast, which should be used to get a card advantage engine online (Tawnos's Coffin, Salvaging Station, Trading Post, Conjurer's Closet, etc.). That value engine can then bridge with or into a card selection/ card draw engine (Artificer's Intuition, Memory Jar, [card]Mind's Eye[card] plus discard step, etc.) to allow you to get permanents onto the table while entirely bypassing using the stack (which is where blue is lethal), making the game state completely UN-interactive and totally in your favor. Games honestly become a joke at that point, and because blue has very few ways to actually destroy or exile permanents, the color by itself has no way to permanently disrupt the value and advantage engines. Mono U will fail to do anything relevant to you much like Mono red fails at destroying enchantments. You can then durdle your way into a ridiculous board and force a concession over a matter of a few turns.
It used to be that the only way they could combat this from happening was to consistently counter the Sharuum itself, but with Cavern out, that strongest and oftentimes only out is no longer available.
To reiterate Jack's comments on Intuition, my strongest use for it hasn't been the outright combo win (which often takes many turns to get the board to simultaneously tap out in order to insta-win) but in casting it to set up your value engines which will win you those games just the same and are a helluva lot less fragile. What I intuition for depends on what I'm facing (which will tell me what to expect if it resolves), what I have on the table (I tend to get more aggressive with my Intuitions when I already have a value engine on board) , whether my general is on the table or in the command zone, and how depleted is everyone's hands and graveyards. Interestingly enough, since the inclusion of Phyrexian metamorph in my list, my percentage of wins with Bitter Ordeal have gone down, while my percentage of wins via infinite turns, beatdown, and commander damage have skyrocketed. I have no doubt this is mostly due to finding new ways to intuition into unique board states that are much more difficult for my opponents to answer than an over reliance on two specific cards to win my tables. I've noticed that by not over-exposing my graveyard in-game, my win ratio has gone way up... to the point that a few months ago up through November, I would purposely throw back good hands while playing the deck, to see how to play out the slow-roll starts. I handicapped myself on fast mana and bombs, and was still pulling out 1/3rd of those games against a table of hate. I don't know if others have experienced this phenomenon with not playing loose with their graveyard, but it was the main reason for Elixir made the cut, and I have not looked back since.
I also find that, unless your opponents are tapped out and you have the Bitter Ordeal FTW in hand, Intuition gets a lot stronger the longer you hold onto it (as you can see how you need the deck to open up the longer you sandbag it, making intuition better by playing it accordingly), and is a very overlooked way for you to get Sharuum back, should the table be able to successfully tuck your general.
That's it in a nut shell (I apologize for the double post) clicked the wrong toolbar button on my phone).
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Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995
Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Shredder...is just so expensive - just play Open the Vaults or Roar of Reclamation!
Shredder actually works really well with Open the Vaults or Roar of Reclamation, sac everything to Krark-Clan Ironworks/Thopter Foundry, cast Open the Vaults and shredder it Open the Vaults back to go off eggs style. It combos with salvaging station too, allowing you to get back non artifact cards during a sharuum loop.
5 mana may seem like a lot but it is made bearable with instant speed. End of turn get back boardwipe/planeswalker for value or tutor/Open the Vault/Bitter Ordeal for the win.
It is a one mana win condition that does some useful things on its own.
Scroll Rack, I found that with Sharuum the hand is quickly emptying. I cannot abuse Scroll Rack as much as in some control strategy that tends to draw more. It is better in my Zedruu deck with Land Tax
I'm actually wondering about this my self. Maybe I'm just not very good at using the card, but it just seem that I am never happy to see it in my sharuum deck.
Scroll Rack, I found that with Sharuum the hand is quickly emptying. I cannot abuse Scroll Rack as much as in some control strategy that tends to draw more. It is better in my Zedruu deck with Land Tax
I'm actually wondering about this my self. Maybe I'm just not very good at using the card, but it just seem that I am never happy to see it in my sharuum deck.
I've had some success with Scroll Rack; particularly with Windfall, Memory Jar, and Whispering Madness. It gives you a bit more control over what you actually discard. With some shuffle effects then it can be a good way to help move poor cards out of your hand and dig deeper. It's gone in and out of my deck.
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
EDIT: Made some changes to the decklist in the signature:
Removed:
Utter End
Most of these are clearly suboptimal choices. FoF is too expensive, Top makes Rack unnecessary.Lim-Dul's Vault
Codex Shredder
Fact or Fiction
Scroll Rack
Added:
Batterskull
These, too, are suboptimal choices, but they seem better or more fun. Batterskull can be good at aggressive tables, is huge on Inkmoth and Sharuum, and protects planeswalkers, Sun Titan is useful value even if he's not an artifact, Cryptic is there for the draw + bounce and not the counter (gasp!).Sun Titan
Cryptic Command
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Treasure Cruise
I think Tamiyo and Cruise have some potential. Tamiyo can both be bait on a durdly, empty board or can be a windmill slam draw 4-7 on a more active one. If she were 4 mana I'd find her to be a real contender. As for Cruise, past midgame the grave often has enough nonrecurrables and drawing 3 for less than 3 mana is pretty darn good.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListIt's your choice to build your deck the way you think it should run. I have no issue with that.
EDH Decks
Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
However, cards like Codex Shredder, Scroll Rack, Fact or Fiction, and Lim-Dul's Vault show up in builds that attempt to be as optimal as possible, and I think there's relevant discussion there. I also believe that Treasure Cruise has ignored strengths even when we don't like exiling our own cards.
Perhaps I should have simply said that instead of mentioning the suboptimal replacements I chose.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListI've had great luck with Scroll Rack as well. The only reason it's not in the deck is that my only copy is needed more within my boros deck.
I will definitely test Codex Shredder.
But about Scroll Rack, I found that with Sharuum the hand is quickly emptying. I cannot abuse Scroll Rack as much as in some control strategy that tends to draw more. It is better in my Zedruu deck with Land Tax
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
- Modify the one or two topdeck tutors in the deck
- Act as a "shuffle effect" for Top and Rack
- Combo with crucible (much less significant if you've seen a fetchland)
- Shut down opposing topdeck tutors
It can also:
- Take a mid to late-game turn to Revive a card
It is cute and it does give value, but I think that value is deceptive and too dependent on having other cards (and is useless when you have certain better chards, like Artificer's Intuition for shuffling). The best part about it is that it's tutorable and can Revive like no other card can, but 6 total mana is just so expensive - just play Open the Vaults or Roar of Reclamation! Bitter Ordealing for the kill is not overwhelmingly the right option in most games.
Perhaps all of you are far better at gauging this card than I am, but I have a suspicion that this card tricks you into thinking its virtual card advantage is what wins you games when the deck is so strong that many other cards would do the same.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListThe play was correct. For anything to resolve, priority must be passed. If priority is passed back to you (without a response), the trigger or spell would resolve. If an enemy has a response, priority must then be passed again.
The best way to play around hate and removal (in my experience) is sequencing your plays. Another strong skill is learning to 'bait' responses. I will gladly throw a Sun Titan in my yard to force a Tormod's Crypt, knowing that the Gift of immortality I am going to follow up with will put me even further ahead. The third skill I trained myself on is 'knowing how to function outside of your combo, as well as with the loss of your engines'. This involves mastering play without access to your general and key components of the deck. For example, Jostin will easily use 3 triggers of Bitter ordeal to Cap my Aura Shards, Austere Command and something like Angel of Finality or Scavenging Ooze. Knowing this, I have learned to hamstring him and keep him off of wins without those cards.
Its all a matter of knowing your build inside and out. Master your lines of play. Optimize all angles of attack. Always consider niche plays. It takes time, but with enough games under your belt... you will get there.
Take my Saffi list as an example. The 'creature' with the lowest threat levels would be Dryad Arbor. At any random table, opponents would think nothing of it. Yet, anyone I have played against will respect it once it hits the board. They know very well what that little land is capable of in my list.
Also a pet card of mine I play him in my 12 post deck in legacy. Keeps everyone fair--and 12 post will ALWAYS win a fair game of magic.
Interestingly got into a minds eye war with an opponent last night where he played his own and we drew to our hearts content.
Let's be honest. I haven't brought the deck to your neighborhood in over a year, but if you'd like me to, I can. A few maatches may be in order :-P
I stopped after all the OP debating with the guys. Most of my Sharuum games have taken place at the LGS in Jersey, while I've been recouperating, and have earned the store credit and vintage singles to prove it. It's been helpful as I haven't been playing it vs a stagnant metagame. 2 weeks after my first visit, the resident "pro" had a print-out of my online list from this very thread. Took 2nd that week, and have taken 1st two more times.
Threat assessment and sequencing is important, but so is tight play, and in unknown metagames (like your lgs), tight play and keeping as many lines of opportunity open is a lot stronger than banking and what usually works with your buddies, cuz when those lines of play are cut off, you'll find those crutches we're a disservice.
I took tables with cards they weren't used to playing around, namely Karn Silver golem, Tawnos's coffin, and the -1 on bender to crash in with unblock able field, while the airforce sat back on defense with vigilence. They came prepared for the combo with the printouts and I brought a sloberknocking fistfight. They learned that Station.Has vigilance when it kills a blocker.
Took em to class. Printed lists can't compensate for years of play experience.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
..
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Basically, Play for second place until it's time to win.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
That's it in a nut shell (I apologize for the double post) clicked the wrong toolbar button on my phone).
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Shredder actually works really well with Open the Vaults or Roar of Reclamation, sac everything to Krark-Clan Ironworks/Thopter Foundry, cast Open the Vaults and shredder it Open the Vaults back to go off eggs style. It combos with salvaging station too, allowing you to get back non artifact cards during a sharuum loop.
5 mana may seem like a lot but it is made bearable with instant speed. End of turn get back boardwipe/planeswalker for value or tutor/Open the Vault/Bitter Ordeal for the win.
It is a one mana win condition that does some useful things on its own.
I'm actually wondering about this my self. Maybe I'm just not very good at using the card, but it just seem that I am never happy to see it in my sharuum deck.
Same with me, I dropped it really early on.
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