Before I removed Magister, I only had 4 creatures that could actually attack. If I end up removing Sphinx of the Steel Wind, I'll be down to 2 (Sharuum and Battlesphere).
If you can attack with evasion often and 10 damage is not difficult for you, I'm definitely not going to tell you Magister Sphinx is bad. It is just very difficult for me to pull off, since even killing one person requires something like Sharuum + previously discarded Magister + untap step + dodge all removal, and my life total is almost certainly also 10 by then. If I'm going to require an untap step to get a kill, I'd prefer to play Kuldotha Forgemaster.
Don't forget that this is multiplayer. Being at ten health really puts a player on the back-foot as they have to play defensively. It may not always be relevant to your board state, but that red green agro deck will be licking it's lips.
I've also used it a few times for life gain. In a tight match, ten life is better than six.
Don't forget that this is multiplayer. Being at ten health really puts a player on the back-foot as they have to play defensively. It may not always be relevant to your board state, but that red green agro deck will be licking it's lips.
I've also used it a few times for life gain. In a tight match, ten life is better than six.
Definitely. And getting two to three other players down to 10 life within rapid succession? That's a major play, even if I personally can't finish them off. There are games where I've made my opponents lose a cumulative 90 life in a single turn because of Magister Sphinx.
Even if they WANT to fight me, there rapidly becomes infighting as they realize they could eliminate more competition.
The only point of life that matters is the last one, and if you cannot remove the last one then lowering the opponent's life total is pointless. I cannot do that, and I won't rely on others to do it for me, especially when I've just made a powerful play and probably made myself public enemy #1.
If you can do either of these things, he's much stronger. I have only had good use for him once, and every other time he was stranded in my hand. That sucks!
I by no means think that Magister is weak - he's an incredibly powerful card, but he doesn't go all the way and therefore he needs support. I'm currently working with the idea that support for Magister - creatures that can attack, things that increase power - are worse for the deck than things that support combos or engines. After all, Esper is the worst aggro shard.
I think you'd be quite justified in saying he has value in your deck, but I would find it odd if you valued it in a deck with only two attacking creatures, one of which is the general.
Lastly, I don't much care if someone gains a lot of life, as pretty much every wincon I have attacks the deck or has infinite attackers.
EDIT: Hey, would you look at that, our conundrums over spot removal have been pretty much solved forever. This, Vindicate, and Cyclonic are probably enough to catch any must-destroy permanent.
Hey, would you look at that, our conundrums over spot removal have been pretty much solved forever. This, Vindicate, and Cyclonic are probably enough to catch any must-destroy permanent.
Also, would you guys mind posting if you start getting real results with Mirrorpool? I haven't seen it enough times to really get a feel for whether or not I like it.
Since I put it into my deck, I only saw it twice. One of that time it made my opponent scoop... I copied my Master Transmuter in response to a second removal targeting her. She had already avoided a first removal thanks to her ability. My opponent didn't expect/see another trick like this to clone her. He conceded because he was a mono-U control deck and his hand full of countermagic couldn't manage the Master Transmuter.
I've had mirrorpool copy a clutch Open the Vaults after it had been countered. You can also combo off with it. I think that it's a fine addition to the deck.
Epiphany at the Drownyard seems pretty solid. It feeds the yard and takes advantage of our considerable mana production. At 4 it's worse than FoF and thirst, but any higher and it starts becoming a powerful piece of dig.
Unfortunately, the big issue with Epiphany at the Drownyard is that it's your opponent who has the last choice: he chooses which stack goes into your hand, not you (unlike FoF.)
I finally got in a decent number for games to test the new list, which is still in Flux. The games were all 4 or 5 player games. Mirrorpool did get played a few times. I played a total of 4 games on the day, dropping one to a more broken opening from an opponent while having awkward draws myself, the second to playing without killer instinct (some in game decisions I chose to make kept me 1 turn away from a combo kill, did that to get a better feel for the newly incorporated aggro elements), and took game 3 and 4 handedly. The last 3 games I had drawn mirrorpool when it was useful. In the second game, I chose to copy a SotSW and get in for aggro beats, which padded my life total, but opponent manages to cyclonic rift.the board into a cheated out Time stretch, copying it for 4 turns.The third game, Mirrorpool allowed me to combo with Just itself, the one drop, and a crypt to combo the table from generating the token. The 4th game was grindy, as my opponents decided to break out Anafenza and more grave hate strategies. Board got wiped 3 times, and my lands kept getting wrecked, but copying Sunday Titan allowed me to get my mana back in order to rebuild. The interaction between sun Titan and mirrorpool is insane, as Titan gets back mirrorpool to protect it from grave removal, and keep making more Titans.Was able to win through double aura shards on the back of Sunday Titan and mirrorpool, jockey ed for an opening where enough Titan triggers (and the copies' triggers) plus cards in hand while opponents tapped out allowed me to time sieve for enough turns to kill one Aura shards player on Titan Damage (was tapped out for swinging on me earlier), and the other with Sharuum damage, and the third for just over exacties. The extra turns allowed me to play and protect Tezzeret over 2 turns to fetch enough artifacts to supplement a seive for 4 or 5 turns, where damage put the game away on a non-infinite seive kill (no karn/station tricks, had sword but no thopter half. Ten was pulling out enough free and cheap artifacts to pay for the next turn
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How does the combo with Mirrorpool work? Sharuum cant come into play and target itself can it?
I believe it can, because you'd choose the physical card Sharuum to put in your graveyard as a state-based action, before you declare targets for the ETB ability. This is how the combo worked previously, more or less, except you couldn't choose which Sharuum died, so it would always be the other Sharuum. But the timing is the same.
Simply put, you would crack Mirrorpool and copy the 'true' Sharuum. Copy ETBs, true Sharuum dies and is resurrected with the copy's ability. From then on, you'd let true Sharuum die every time, and target itself with it's ability because by the time you choose the target, it's already in the graveyard thanks to the Legend rule.
Rule of the Legends is a State-Based Action (SBA).
SBA are checked before any player would get priority, that means before adding something to the stack or resolving it.
Thus, Whenever a Sharuum copy enters the battlefield, it triggers. But SBA are checked before its ability is put on the stack.
So you sacrifice a Sharuum, then you put the ability on the stack and choose a target for it (and you can target the other Sharuum since it is already in your gy.)
I'm preparing a long post with my updated list that I'll post tonight per Frank_Glascock's request. Explored themes will include the nature of competitive EDH, meta arms races, and the overall position of Engine Sharuum as an archetype in the wider CEDH meta. Succinctly put, the engine variant is not capable of easily taking tables from the best decks in the format (Zur stax, Zur Doomsday, Jeleva storm, Derevi stax). Winning is possible, but largely dependent on the opponents hitting poor draws; it's an uphill battle from the get-go. If you're tapping out to play a Trading Post or a Mind's Eye while your opponent is drawing 30 cards with Ad Nauseam or Necropotence, you WILL lose that game. If you allow your opponents to have total control of the stack because you refuse to play counterspells, you WILL lose on your opponent's Doomsday turn, and you WILL lose to a resolved Stasis when your opponent has the infamous Bird Wizard in play. If you keep substituting instant-and-sorcery removal for artifacts that poorly simulate the same ability in the name of synergy, you will be absolutely destroyed by the Stony Silence Zur tutors for--and similarly crushed by Null Rod, Rest in Peace, Kataki, and other easily-tutorable hate cards. I have a lot more to say on this topic, but it'll have to wait until I'm off work.
I have never been able to get trinket Sharuum to work in my meta, but I had a fair amount of success with a more control based Sharuum, so I see where you are coming from.
Are there any current fast combo lists besides Welgo's and Ajacobik's (when it gets posted)? Ajacobik is strongly of the belief that Sharuum can not compete at the top end pods. While I do not doubt his expertise, I would like to see if there is anyone who has crafted a list that can survive at those tables.
I personally haven't played against Jeleva Storm or Zur Stax, but I've played against similar decks that run fast combos/stax builds. As of right now, I can race with all of them, usually winning 3/5 games. Doomsday has not been an issue for me so far and stax needs to pretty abusive t2 or t3 or their only play is to try and reset the game. The fluidity of assembling the Gravestorm half of the combo has been really easy for me in general, so really my means of winning is resolving a 6 cmc spell without Rest in Peace on board, which has been rare for me across competitive boards...I think Zur is the only deck I worry about it showing up.
Right now I'm debating cutting the Meek Foundry combo pieces to free up for disruption or reinforce the center combo. Extraction is no longer a threat. My issues are that Altar of the Brood won't kill Eldrazi decks/obscure things like Elixir of Immortality on board. Mirrorpool comes in tapped, and I really prefer refraining from Etbt lands...and combos that you need to wait a rotation for.
Ajacobik, I have two questions. Did you try an all out fast combo version of Sharuum that eliminates secondary win cons in favor of playing more counters and removal? Or another way to put it, are Welgo and I just wasting our time? This is the primary reason I am interested in your list. I do not want to try to create a list which you have already play tested and drawn conclusions.
Secondly, how would you rate the top end decks one to five (Druid, Zur Doomsday, Boonweaver, Derevi, High Tide, Teferi, Jeleva Storm ect)?
If your hitting Alter an infinite number of times, it can still deal with Eldrazi. Yes they can reshuffle their graveyard back into the library when theymill one, but you are able to then repeat and keep milling them. Eventually, no matter how many times the reshuffle, the probability that the last X cards in their library are only the eldrazi titans will occur. Even if the odds of this happening on any one reshuffle are very small, by repeating that reshuffle an infinite number of times, you are guaranteed to force this scenario to occur.
Yes, you will not be able to kill them the turn you combo, but you will heavily limit their library and put them on a X turn clock where X was the number of titans they where running. If they had just one, then they have one turn where they may be able to try something with an empty library. We are also playing Esper, so we should be able to respond to whatever they attempt to do. Even with that turn, it is still likley checkmate and we will win.
If your hitting Alter an infinite number of times, it can still deal with Eldrazi. Yes they can reshuffle their graveyard back into the library when theymill one, but you are able to then repeat and keep milling them. Eventually, no matter how many times the reshuffle, the probability that the last X cards in their library are only the eldrazi titans will occur. Even if the odds of this happening on any one reshuffle are very small, by repeating that reshuffle an infinite number of times, you are guaranteed to force this scenario to occur.
Yes, you will not be able to kill them the turn you combo, but you will heavily limit their library and put them on a X turn clock where X was the number of titans they where running. If they had just one, then they have one turn where they may be able to try something with an empty library. We are also playing Esper, so we should be able to respond to whatever they attempt to do. Even with that turn, it is still likley checkmate and we will win.
Taking shortcut like this is not allowed in Magic the Gathering.
Yes, the probability is less than 1 chance out of 99 that the Eldrazi titan will be shuffled on the bottom of the library. But you don't know when this event will occur and how much shuffing time it will need.
The R&D clearly stated that the outcome of a game of Magic should be decided by cards being played and not by a conjecture that requires a degree in Mathematics.
Read this paragraph to know more : http://blogs.magicjudges.org/articles/2012/12/25/slow-play/#loops
"What is not acceptable is to give a desired outcome where you can’t give a count of how many iterations it will take to get to that end result. Saying “mill until you have one Emrakul left in your deck” is an example of an unacceptable shortcut. While this is theoretically possible to achieve, you cannot determine beforehand how many times it will take to get to that end point."
If your hitting Alter an infinite number of times, it can still deal with Eldrazi. Yes they can reshuffle their graveyard back into the library when theymill one, but you are able to then repeat and keep milling them. Eventually, no matter how many times the reshuffle, the probability that the last X cards in their library are only the eldrazi titans will occur. Even if the odds of this happening on any one reshuffle are very small, by repeating that reshuffle an infinite number of times, you are guaranteed to force this scenario to occur.
Yes, you will not be able to kill them the turn you combo, but you will heavily limit their library and put them on a X turn clock where X was the number of titans they where running. If they had just one, then they have one turn where they may be able to try something with an empty library. We are also playing Esper, so we should be able to respond to whatever they attempt to do. Even with that turn, it is still likley checkmate and we will win.
Taking shortcut like this is not allowed in Magic the Gathering.
Yes, the probability is less than 1 chance out of 99 that the Eldrazi titan will be shuffled on the bottom of the library. But you don't know when this event will occur and how much shuffing time it will need.
The R&D clearly stated that the outcome of a game of Magic should be decided by cards being played and not by a conjecture that requires a degree in Mathematics.
Read this paragraph to know more : http://blogs.magicjudges.org/articles/2012/12/25/slow-play/#loops
"What is not acceptable is to give a desired outcome where you can’t give a count of how many iterations it will take to get to that end result. Saying “mill until you have one Emrakul left in your deck” is an example of an unacceptable shortcut. While this is theoretically possible to achieve, you cannot determine beforehand how many times it will take to get to that end point."
Thanks for pointing that out. I stand corrected
As a side note, this rule seems to be one reason why Wizards brought the ban-hammer down on one of the Eggs decks that was prevalent in Modern a while back. The combo their was not deterministic and thus had do be done manually and not with a shortcut.
[quote from="Frank_Glascock »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/217067-sharuum-everyones-favorite-kitty?comment=1599"] Ajacobik, I have two questions. Did you try an all out fast combo version of Sharuum that eliminates secondary win cons in favor of playing more counters and removal? Or another way to put it, are Welgo and I just wasting our time? This is the primary reason I am interested in your list. I do not want to try to create a list which you have already play tested and drawn conclusions.
Secondly, how would you rate the top end decks one to five (Druid, Zur Doomsday, Boonweaver, Derevi, High Tide, Teferi, Jeleva Storm ect)?
I have played most variations of the deck (engine, eggs, reanimator, you name it) at some point in the last five years, though I didn't experiment much with the fast combo version until about a year ago. I ended up with a list similar to Welgo's and it performed very well against most decks, but I kept struggling to set up Gravestorm against prepared tables, and often didn't set it up fast enough against streamlined combo decks because of the limitation of having to resolve a 6CC creature to attempt to win. I will say that you aren't wasting your time with the deck at all if you enjoy playing it, and it's still a very good deck. It's just not quite at the same level as some of the other decks in the format at the moment.
As for decisively ranking the top decks, that's nearly impossible in a format where every game sees four different decks seated at a table, and the interactions between those decks varies wildly depending on their chemistry and the individual who built the decks--many EDH games at high-end tables are determined simply by turn order. However, I'll say I think Doomsday Zur is currently the best positioned deck and, really, that's the deck we're trying to compete with--it's a fast combo deck in Esper colors that relies on sticking a creature and jumping it through some hoops to win on the spot.
Hello ajacobik. Can you link to examples of these other top end decks mentioned here? You seem to have experience running against them. Seeing some example decklist can help all of us undertand how they work, even if we have not been seeing these decks in our local meta (Myself: I mainly play at my local FNM and see a wide range of decks, from amateur to competitive). As Sun Tzu stated, 'It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles'. We will then be able to develop strategy of how me may be able to counteract these other top decks and our optimal response.
I actually misspoke a bit...I play against Skuloth's DD Zur list (minus the insanely expensive cards) here or there, this is one of the decks I was referring to. I assumed Zur Stax was a total lock out build, and I haven't seen that outside of Junk. I guess I just need a more experienced player.
As for Mox's list, it's the one I've always wanted to play against. I keep getting turned away from online because I've been told that none of my combos are easily shortcutted in game, and I cant imagine doing that out AND being new. I have been looking to him to fix up my deck and maybe make a few changes. Ever ytime I go to his list, Night's Whisper moves up further and further into my sideboard binder.
Edit: Baby Jace is in the Zur deck, have you seen him in a lot of competitive decks? I only have one and he's been jumping around my decks. He seems to fit everywhere
edit edit: I need to make a reddit acct for this competetive EDH page.
Welgo, you are right that there is value in creating the most efficient Sharuum list for a competitive environment.
Ajacobik, thank you for giving us such a good snapshot of the upper echelon of the competitive scene. I was curious to see Karador Boonweaver mentioned and did some research. I found Cobblepott's deck on Tappedout (link below). It seems incredibly fast and plays hate (similar to Derevi). Is its venerability to graveyard hate its only weakness? Has it been as effective as Zur Doomsday or Jeleva Grixis Storm?
I have a vested interest as I build these decks as a hobby (not all at one time), I have Skuloth's built and have built Moxnix's Jeleva. I can easily transfer cards from Zur to Sharuum as they are very similar. This is particularly true of Welgo's version with the plethora of draw spells.
And... can you explain the loop with Mirrorpool to me?Nevermind, my brain is still stuck on the Sixth Edition legend rule. Makes sense.TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
If you can attack with evasion often and 10 damage is not difficult for you, I'm definitely not going to tell you Magister Sphinx is bad. It is just very difficult for me to pull off, since even killing one person requires something like Sharuum + previously discarded Magister + untap step + dodge all removal, and my life total is almost certainly also 10 by then. If I'm going to require an untap step to get a kill, I'd prefer to play Kuldotha Forgemaster.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListI've also used it a few times for life gain. In a tight match, ten life is better than six.
Even if they WANT to fight me, there rapidly becomes infighting as they realize they could eliminate more competition.
Also, it negates an absurd lifegain deck.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
If you can do either of these things, he's much stronger. I have only had good use for him once, and every other time he was stranded in my hand. That sucks!
I by no means think that Magister is weak - he's an incredibly powerful card, but he doesn't go all the way and therefore he needs support. I'm currently working with the idea that support for Magister - creatures that can attack, things that increase power - are worse for the deck than things that support combos or engines. After all, Esper is the worst aggro shard.
I think you'd be quite justified in saying he has value in your deck, but I would find it odd if you valued it in a deck with only two attacking creatures, one of which is the general.
Lastly, I don't much care if someone gains a lot of life, as pretty much every wincon I have attacks the deck or has infinite attackers.
EDIT: Hey, would you look at that, our conundrums over spot removal have been pretty much solved forever. This, Vindicate, and Cyclonic are probably enough to catch any must-destroy permanent.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListI love it! Vindicate and Utter End made a child: Anguished Unmaking !
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Simply put, you would crack Mirrorpool and copy the 'true' Sharuum. Copy ETBs, true Sharuum dies and is resurrected with the copy's ability. From then on, you'd let true Sharuum die every time, and target itself with it's ability because by the time you choose the target, it's already in the graveyard thanks to the Legend rule.
Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
SBA are checked before any player would get priority, that means before adding something to the stack or resolving it.
Thus, Whenever a Sharuum copy enters the battlefield, it triggers. But SBA are checked before its ability is put on the stack.
So you sacrifice a Sharuum, then you put the ability on the stack and choose a target for it (and you can target the other Sharuum since it is already in your gy.)
I have never been able to get trinket Sharuum to work in my meta, but I had a fair amount of success with a more control based Sharuum, so I see where you are coming from.
.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Right now I'm debating cutting the Meek Foundry combo pieces to free up for disruption or reinforce the center combo. Extraction is no longer a threat. My issues are that Altar of the Brood won't kill Eldrazi decks/obscure things like Elixir of Immortality on board. Mirrorpool comes in tapped, and I really prefer refraining from Etbt lands...and combos that you need to wait a rotation for.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Secondly, how would you rate the top end decks one to five (Druid, Zur Doomsday, Boonweaver, Derevi, High Tide, Teferi, Jeleva Storm ect)?
If your hitting Alter an infinite number of times, it can still deal with Eldrazi. Yes they can reshuffle their graveyard back into the library when theymill one, but you are able to then repeat and keep milling them. Eventually, no matter how many times the reshuffle, the probability that the last X cards in their library are only the eldrazi titans will occur. Even if the odds of this happening on any one reshuffle are very small, by repeating that reshuffle an infinite number of times, you are guaranteed to force this scenario to occur.
Yes, you will not be able to kill them the turn you combo, but you will heavily limit their library and put them on a X turn clock where X was the number of titans they where running. If they had just one, then they have one turn where they may be able to try something with an empty library. We are also playing Esper, so we should be able to respond to whatever they attempt to do. Even with that turn, it is still likley checkmate and we will win.
edit: I'd like to clarify I'm building Sharuum to play Sharuum and not wasting my time :]
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Taking shortcut like this is not allowed in Magic the Gathering.
Yes, the probability is less than 1 chance out of 99 that the Eldrazi titan will be shuffled on the bottom of the library. But you don't know when this event will occur and how much shuffing time it will need.
The R&D clearly stated that the outcome of a game of Magic should be decided by cards being played and not by a conjecture that requires a degree in Mathematics.
Read this paragraph to know more : http://blogs.magicjudges.org/articles/2012/12/25/slow-play/#loops
"What is not acceptable is to give a desired outcome where you can’t give a count of how many iterations it will take to get to that end result. Saying “mill until you have one Emrakul left in your deck” is an example of an unacceptable shortcut. While this is theoretically possible to achieve, you cannot determine beforehand how many times it will take to get to that end point."
Thanks for pointing that out. I stand corrected
As a side note, this rule seems to be one reason why Wizards brought the ban-hammer down on one of the Eggs decks that was prevalent in Modern a while back. The combo their was not deterministic and thus had do be done manually and not with a shortcut.
Hello ajacobik. Can you link to examples of these other top end decks mentioned here? You seem to have experience running against them. Seeing some example decklist can help all of us undertand how they work, even if we have not been seeing these decks in our local meta (Myself: I mainly play at my local FNM and see a wide range of decks, from amateur to competitive). As Sun Tzu stated, 'It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles'. We will then be able to develop strategy of how me may be able to counteract these other top decks and our optimal response.
As for Mox's list, it's the one I've always wanted to play against. I keep getting turned away from online because I've been told that none of my combos are easily shortcutted in game, and I cant imagine doing that out AND being new. I have been looking to him to fix up my deck and maybe make a few changes. Ever ytime I go to his list, Night's Whisper moves up further and further into my sideboard binder.
Edit: Baby Jace is in the Zur deck, have you seen him in a lot of competitive decks? I only have one and he's been jumping around my decks. He seems to fit everywhere
edit edit: I need to make a reddit acct for this competetive EDH page.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Ajacobik, thank you for giving us such a good snapshot of the upper echelon of the competitive scene. I was curious to see Karador Boonweaver mentioned and did some research. I found Cobblepott's deck on Tappedout (link below). It seems incredibly fast and plays hate (similar to Derevi). Is its venerability to graveyard hate its only weakness? Has it been as effective as Zur Doomsday or Jeleva Grixis Storm?
I have a vested interest as I build these decks as a hobby (not all at one time), I have Skuloth's built and have built Moxnix's Jeleva. I can easily transfer cards from Zur to Sharuum as they are very similar. This is particularly true of Welgo's version with the plethora of draw spells.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/karador-multiplayer-boonweaver-combocontrol/