I played some games with Sharuum last friday evening.
Well, In a 3-players game I got a "God-shaped" hand with Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Tawnos's Coffin, Timetwister, Biland, Rainbowland.
I managed to do:
Turn 1 Tawnos's Coffin.
Turn 2 I drew and cast a Mindslaver.
Turn 3 Timetwister and more manarocks.
Turn 4 Mindslaver locking a player while swinging the other with a Wurmcoil Engine. They conceded quickly.
My opponents were a little bit disgusted, but they aknowledged a play like this is pretty rare.
On a second game with 4 players using Sliver Queen (x2) and Vorel of the Hull Clade, I cast turn-2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (thanks to Mana Crypt) who is animating a Darksteel Citadel for defense. Turn-3 I cast Venser, the Sojourner who is blinking my Tezz and my Crypt for mana.
On turn-4 my opponents are afraid by my Venser at 7 loyalties. My 5/5 Citadel is plowshare'd (exiled) opening the path to my PW's. Venser is killed by an angry Sliver Queen and the other two players take care of Tezz.
The Vorel guy has an active Lux Cannon which destroy one of my manarocks every round. There is a lot of graveyard and artifact hate and my board is wiped until I drew a Timetwister, reloading me. I cast Time Sieve, followed by Kuldotha Forgemaster, in hope to get Myr Battlesphere next round but Vorel wiped my board again. I am upset against the Vorel guy and cast a Magister Sphinx reducing him from 40 to 10 life. Eye for an Eye ;-)
Then, I got Salvaging Station active with a Lion's Eye Diamond and some capsules. I use shenanigans a lot. I won the personnal war against Vorel, he is out of ressources, and I keep calm a Sliver Queen player. But the other Sliver Queen player cast a big uncounterable (Boseiju) Debt to the Deathless, at 21x2 killing everyone (We were at 35-41-25)
I lost in a very cool game. Sharuum is highly resilient.
About deck construction, I am testing Metalworker in place of Steel Hellkite. Early game it is very explosive. End game it is useless, at best a Worn Powerstone.
Have you tested it? I read the posts of this thread but there are only few message about him.
The motto at our games is "when in doubt, bang on Sharuum"
Not true. That used to be the motto. Now, its "Bang on Anthony. Only change targets if someone is telegraphing a win".
Also, just wanted to stop in and comment on the topics of tempo and threat assessment. They are extremely undervalued/misinterpreted concepts in the format. Contrary to popular belief, tempo is a real thing in EDH. Proper threat assessment is something that every player can benefit from (a lot of players are pretty miserable at it). I have noticed many players do not really understand how to hamstring decks or evaluate threats. For example, a lot of tormod's crypts are aimed my way just to fight a single saffi trigger (even when I am behind)... but they really do nothing to me. Poor threat assessment, and poor threat management right there. Knowing critical turns, critical plays, critical cards and establishing your role in a game are all a part of threat assessment. Its so much more than just 'OMG, blightsteel... path it!'. An opposing blightsteel can be your friend if you know how to leverage your position as well as leverage your opponents position on other opponents.
Sorry I've been away from the boards. I've been working double shifts to get ahead on seasonal work so I could have shoulder surgery. I went under the knife 2 weeks ago today, but it's been difficult to type in a sling. I've had to really take my time with responses, and so I try to keep them at a minimum. I have however been reading this thread daily, along with other things magical, to maintain my sanity.
I'm on the fence with Ugin as a slot. He currently replaces crypt in my deck. He's great as a removal spell, but really sucks with rings, unlike Karn. Using him is defiantly a metagaming call, as he shines against agressive decks and graveyard strategies, where you can randomly exile random pieces of engines and synergies in one fell swoop, but he really sucks against control. That one extra mana is huge, and I'm not sure if I've been pimping him in games due to how well I pilot the other 98. I've only drawn him a handful of times, and the 3 damage isn't all that intimidating. I don't forsee ever ultimating him. Unlike the other planes walkers in my list where all the abilities are good, you only really want the -X on Ugin 99% of the time you play him. I'm swaying towards putting crypt back in, and staying with Karn and All is dust as removal until a better removal spell comes. In my groups, Tormod's crypt's affect is just as good at containing graveyard strategies, while having additional utility over Ugin as part of the salvaging station engine. It made combating aggro easier, but it wasn't so big a problem before that I needed a second all is dust.
I tbink I also no longer use Steel Hellkite, but I forgot what I cut for it. I'll check.
Lastly, even though tuck is gone, I still use unbridled rites, as it help cheat the air force game plan onto the table and makes it that much more efficient. The deck can get to 7 mana easy, but having an additional way to avoid color screw variance issues and it's facilitating turn 3 Steel Wind Sphinx vs aggro without exposing sharuum on the stack to the rest of the table made this slot a keeper for now.
I think that you're judging Ugin a bit harshly. While not as strong as Karn with rings (and name me another planeswalker who is), six damage is enough to kill a lot of troublesome creatures, or it can be split to kill off a couple of utility. I've also managed to hit his ultimate several times in a couple of different decks. Hitting his ultimate with a Rings of Brighthearth is a huge windfall. I personally feel that the flexibility he offers in lieu of All of Dust is worth the extra mana.
About deck construction, I am testing Metalworker in place of Steel Hellkite. Early game it is very explosive. End game it is useless, at best a Worn Powerstone.
Have you tested it? I read the posts of this thread but there are only few message about him.
Im not sure that I would include Metalworker without Staff of Domination. If I were looking at changing one slot and was willing to tempt fate with a tap creature then Master Transmuter would go in first by a significant margin.
Even in combo, Metalworker is meh. I don't know how else to put it but...when it could be good, other things could be better and when it's bad...it's really bad. The final reason that made me cut it was "if my hand is that full, I can probably win instead or it is too late and he will just bit it to removal. It's a little more exciting in colorless where everything is artifacts and you're more opt to play with ALL the cards that can abuse him. Maybe with a few changes he could work, but it seems the core of each deck style has been determined and doesn't really opt to play it.
[H]ow is Codex Shredder? Is it safe to haphazardly mill your library? I really like its Scroll Rack / Top interaction, but I'm considering replacing the Rack with it. How do you use it, and what interactions make it worthwhile?
Codex Shredder is dope. It enables lots of silly combos, grants you slow value, fights top-of-library tutors, and regrowths valuable non-artifact spells.
What's the difference between engine and combo version? I noticed there's 0 counterspells in engine (not even Force or Pact ) is it really that unneeded?
I am currently running a more controllish build with alot of counters and boardwipe with combo intact
Counters aren't too hot unless it's just for "hey I'm gonna win right now, who's got removal?" and if you aren't looking to do that as early as t3 or as late as t6 you may have no use for them, especially the 2 you mentioned- giving up cards or totally hamstringing yourself on mana are probably for counterspells are reserved for the decks looking to win realll early- so opening hand/top deck they aren't awful. Going card for card isnt too hot when there are still two other players. Honestly outside of Mystic Snake set ups or something similar where recurring them is easier you won't need counters. Although I cant apply that theory to my own Sharuum deck, I learned it here and applied it to other decks and it is very noticeable. Honestly the association with blue and untapped mana is enough- I'm really enjoying players constantly playing around cards I don't play anymore.
Extractor Demon just isn't enough. Far too slow for combo at least at the cost of not hitting Eldrazi decks, which will be ever more common now with mm2015. I know a lot of people who are just adding Kozi and Ulamog just because they pulled them. Altar of the Brood seems to trump him in a lot of ways.
Alter of the Brood is superior in every way that matters, and it isn't even good enough because of Eldrazi.
Signet Vs Talisman: It comes down to if you are willing to pay life for mana fixing in order to have the rocks be self sufficient. Both sets are fine cards. I personally like Mind's Eye a lot, but generally I get more work out of Memory Jar.
I love Extractor Demon, but you have to build your deck to make a lot of mana if you want the best Intuition piles. In that vein of thought, Signets are better because they net -1 mana the turn you cast them, but you get colored mana, which is often scarce.
I'm glad I get to play with a budget Timetwister! We normally dump our hands before we refill them anyway, so the downside seems minimal. The main question is, it is good enough to play both? Or does the deck only want one? Perhaps it replaces the Windfall slot?
Altar of the Brood is still good, even against Eldrazi decks just make sure that Titans are the last cards in the deck and in 1 or 2 turns you got them.
RedGauntlet, you can't actually shortcut that, and you can't play out the combo without it being slowplay. This is because there is no upper bound on the number of times you could complete the loop without them still having Eldrazi.
Signets are, in my opinion, marginally better because they are a net increase in color compared to the talismans.
However, they are weaker under a 'geddon effect.
Windfall is still stronger than Day's Undoing. It fills the 'yard and you can still use the new hand before your opponents. That being said, I'm still interested in the card, and it might prompt me to try Vedalken Orrey again.
I like this printing. There are two main reasons I use time twister in my list:
1) after my opponents aggressively mulligan into hands that are explosive and/or have Sharuum hate, I use time twister turn 1 to Mana ramp into time twister forcing my opponents to take a forced mligan at the start of the game, which can often put an opponent or two out of the contention from the start, as they no longer have the mana ramp or business spells they sculpted their hand with at the start of the game.
2) graveyard protection. Keep my graveyard from getting too rich for a miser's tormod's crypt or bojuka bog to randomly screw me.
This card is great at doing both those things. What you lose out with this card is the strength of the mid-game twister, the ability to neuter grave based generals like Jarad with a twister and keep sculpting your hand, or using it as a dig spell, to fish 7 cards deep into your deck, when all you've done is play Mana rocks, and you're looking for a threat to extend your board presence.
It's also nice that this card doesn't exile itself, so with your elixir, you have a way to recycle your library without the bulk of eldrazi. This is an exciting printing for most. It is debatable whether this will replace FoF for me. If I had to face Teeg as an opposite g general, I would say yes, but since he's only been one of the 99 in a few decks I face, FoF is easier to play with, but I'm all for reducing costs to streamline the mana. Someone needs to test this out to really give some data driven feedback.
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It's also nice that this card doesn't exile itself, so with your elixir, you have a way to recycle your library without the bulk of eldrazi. This is an exciting printing for most. It is debatable whether this will replace FoF for me. If I had to face Teeg as an opposite g general, I would say yes, but since he's only been one of the 99 in a few decks I face, FoF is easier to play with, but I'm all for reducing costs to streamline the mana. Someone needs to test this out to really give some data driven feedback.
See, that's what I thought - we're not Storm, continuing to play with our new 7 cards isn't the only thing timetwister can do for us.
I'd like to note that this card does exile itself, however. It's in the reminder text for ending your turn. Obviously if you instant speed cast it, it doesn't, but...
If you're looking at the mid-game play then Timespiral is actually cheaper to cast once you've made at least four land drops. The potential is there, but I want to play with it in hand before getting excited. That end of turn clause is rougher than first glance might suggest.
A huge part of the draw 7 effect is being able to throw it down turn 1 or 2. I think Memory Jar does what Time Spiral does but better, and I'm not sure the deck needs both. In addition, getting Spiral countered is a huge deal, and in a deck as counter-resilient as this I'm not too fond of introducing that kind of vulnerability.
If I'm looking to draw for the sake of draw, Sharuum has enough quality density that top+key, Memory Jar, and Mind's Eye do the job fairly well. Maybe I speak from sheer inexperience since I've never played with twister, but I also don't expect this to do everything Twister does. I just want it to protect my graveyard and refill after I Affinity out the gates.
See, there in lies the clincher; making sure you know what you're using the card for. I prefer Elixir for graveyard protection because it's instant speed; otherwise I want a graveyard to interact with. Yes, it jerks around people's early game, but I'm already running Windfall and Whispering Madness which both feed into my own graveyard shenanigans better. I anticipate that Day's Undoing will show to be very strong early, peter out, and even be a weak card mid to late game because of the 'end turn' clause. Because of that, I have a feeling that it's better in U/G/X which already has Alchemist Refuge, Anticipation, etc and are getting a bit more value from it.
We see so few new cards for this deck that it's easy to get excited when something notable comes around (and this card is notable), but we have to guard against over-inflating the new card's perceived value while also giving it a fair shake.
Yeah Windfall seems much better for Sharuum. Why do you pay Whispering Madness - does the Cipher consistently work? Running two wheels, do you think Notion Thief might be good? It's a good card in general.
Well, In a 3-players game I got a "God-shaped" hand with Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Tawnos's Coffin, Timetwister, Biland, Rainbowland.
I managed to do:
Turn 1 Tawnos's Coffin.
Turn 2 I drew and cast a Mindslaver.
Turn 3 Timetwister and more manarocks.
Turn 4 Mindslaver locking a player while swinging the other with a Wurmcoil Engine. They conceded quickly.
My opponents were a little bit disgusted, but they aknowledged a play like this is pretty rare.
On a second game with 4 players using Sliver Queen (x2) and Vorel of the Hull Clade, I cast turn-2 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas (thanks to Mana Crypt) who is animating a Darksteel Citadel for defense. Turn-3 I cast Venser, the Sojourner who is blinking my Tezz and my Crypt for mana.
On turn-4 my opponents are afraid by my Venser at 7 loyalties. My 5/5 Citadel is plowshare'd (exiled) opening the path to my PW's. Venser is killed by an angry Sliver Queen and the other two players take care of Tezz.
The Vorel guy has an active Lux Cannon which destroy one of my manarocks every round. There is a lot of graveyard and artifact hate and my board is wiped until I drew a Timetwister, reloading me. I cast Time Sieve, followed by Kuldotha Forgemaster, in hope to get Myr Battlesphere next round but Vorel wiped my board again. I am upset against the Vorel guy and cast a Magister Sphinx reducing him from 40 to 10 life. Eye for an Eye ;-)
Then, I got Salvaging Station active with a Lion's Eye Diamond and some capsules. I use shenanigans a lot. I won the personnal war against Vorel, he is out of ressources, and I keep calm a Sliver Queen player. But the other Sliver Queen player cast a big uncounterable (Boseiju) Debt to the Deathless, at 21x2 killing everyone (We were at 35-41-25)
I lost in a very cool game. Sharuum is highly resilient.
About deck construction, I am testing Metalworker in place of Steel Hellkite. Early game it is very explosive. End game it is useless, at best a Worn Powerstone.
Have you tested it? I read the posts of this thread but there are only few message about him.
Not true. That used to be the motto. Now, its "Bang on Anthony. Only change targets if someone is telegraphing a win".
Also, just wanted to stop in and comment on the topics of tempo and threat assessment. They are extremely undervalued/misinterpreted concepts in the format. Contrary to popular belief, tempo is a real thing in EDH. Proper threat assessment is something that every player can benefit from (a lot of players are pretty miserable at it). I have noticed many players do not really understand how to hamstring decks or evaluate threats. For example, a lot of tormod's crypts are aimed my way just to fight a single saffi trigger (even when I am behind)... but they really do nothing to me. Poor threat assessment, and poor threat management right there. Knowing critical turns, critical plays, critical cards and establishing your role in a game are all a part of threat assessment. Its so much more than just 'OMG, blightsteel... path it!'. An opposing blightsteel can be your friend if you know how to leverage your position as well as leverage your opponents position on other opponents.
I think that you're judging Ugin a bit harshly. While not as strong as Karn with rings (and name me another planeswalker who is), six damage is enough to kill a lot of troublesome creatures, or it can be split to kill off a couple of utility. I've also managed to hit his ultimate several times in a couple of different decks. Hitting his ultimate with a Rings of Brighthearth is a huge windfall. I personally feel that the flexibility he offers in lieu of All of Dust is worth the extra mana.
Im not sure that I would include Metalworker without Staff of Domination. If I were looking at changing one slot and was willing to tempt fate with a tap creature then Master Transmuter would go in first by a significant margin.
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
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Codex Shredder is dope. It enables lots of silly combos, grants you slow value, fights top-of-library tutors, and regrowths valuable non-artifact spells.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
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I am currently running a more controllish build with alot of counters and boardwipe with combo intact
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
[list]
[*]Is it because it's a target aquirer?
[*]Is it because your metas are heavy in [card]Swords to Plowshares [card] effects?
After playing some games I have noticed I kinda durdle a bit. Maybe Mind's Eye needs a chance.
On rocks: I noticed people running Signets and some running Talismans. Is it dependent on build or is it just personal taste?
Just a few inquiries from a returning Sharuum player. I'll add my list when I get home.
List tags are malformed.
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Thanks To DarkNightCavalier For the Sig!!!
URXSurf's Up, Mizz Magnus!XRU
URGWKynaios and Tiro's Multiplayer MenagerieWGRU
Signet Vs Talisman: It comes down to if you are willing to pay life for mana fixing in order to have the rocks be self sufficient. Both sets are fine cards. I personally like Mind's Eye a lot, but generally I get more work out of Memory Jar.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListJarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
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Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
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I'm glad I get to play with a budget Timetwister! We normally dump our hands before we refill them anyway, so the downside seems minimal. The main question is, it is good enough to play both? Or does the deck only want one? Perhaps it replaces the Windfall slot?
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListJarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
On Altar, would it just be worth to run Leyline of the Void? Seems sketchy
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However, they are weaker under a 'geddon effect.
Windfall is still stronger than Day's Undoing. It fills the 'yard and you can still use the new hand before your opponents. That being said, I'm still interested in the card, and it might prompt me to try Vedalken Orrey again.
1) after my opponents aggressively mulligan into hands that are explosive and/or have Sharuum hate, I use time twister turn 1 to Mana ramp into time twister forcing my opponents to take a forced mligan at the start of the game, which can often put an opponent or two out of the contention from the start, as they no longer have the mana ramp or business spells they sculpted their hand with at the start of the game.
2) graveyard protection. Keep my graveyard from getting too rich for a miser's tormod's crypt or bojuka bog to randomly screw me.
This card is great at doing both those things. What you lose out with this card is the strength of the mid-game twister, the ability to neuter grave based generals like Jarad with a twister and keep sculpting your hand, or using it as a dig spell, to fish 7 cards deep into your deck, when all you've done is play Mana rocks, and you're looking for a threat to extend your board presence.
It's also nice that this card doesn't exile itself, so with your elixir, you have a way to recycle your library without the bulk of eldrazi. This is an exciting printing for most. It is debatable whether this will replace FoF for me. If I had to face Teeg as an opposite g general, I would say yes, but since he's only been one of the 99 in a few decks I face, FoF is easier to play with, but I'm all for reducing costs to streamline the mana. Someone needs to test this out to really give some data driven feedback.
Blue: teaching Magic players manners since 1995Shops: Teaching blue players manners since 2009
I'd like to note that this card does exile itself, however. It's in the reminder text for ending your turn. Obviously if you instant speed cast it, it doesn't, but...
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListIf I'm looking to draw for the sake of draw, Sharuum has enough quality density that top+key, Memory Jar, and Mind's Eye do the job fairly well. Maybe I speak from sheer inexperience since I've never played with twister, but I also don't expect this to do everything Twister does. I just want it to protect my graveyard and refill after I Affinity out the gates.
Sharuum List 1/22/2017
UW Tron ListWe see so few new cards for this deck that it's easy to get excited when something notable comes around (and this card is notable), but we have to guard against over-inflating the new card's perceived value while also giving it a fair shake.
I highly encourage people to test Ad Nauseam.
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog