You are very true about it. Black was and will always be my favourite color in Magic and I love playing it. I will probably stick to my Shelly though, she's so boss.
I mean you can beat them but it requires a good draw and smart players at the table. I just try to enjoy playing and accept that I wont be beating Maelstrom Wanderer or Roon of the Hidden Real any time soon.
My main deck is Chainer, Dementia Master, so I consider Xiahou Dun to be a close compatriot in arms. Two card ideas for recently discussed things in this thread:
Graveyard hate: Withered Wretch - cheap activation, cheap body, and creature based so it is easy to recur
Anti Control Tech: Mindslicer - Both Chainer and Xiahou Dun can easily play out of the GY, and both make recurring him easy.
Also, unlike a few here, I really like Bloodline Keeper. Mono-b can take a while for the engine to get going, and he is great at creating a wall/sac fodder.
I like Withered Wretch and Mindslicer. I play primarily online these days so it will be very easy for me to test these cards. Speaking of online play, the other day I played a game where another played was using XHD and it turns out that he was playing my exact list! Pretty awesome to know other people are liking the deck and using it out there in the aether.
Also, unlike a few here, I really like Bloodline Keeper. Mono-b can take a while for the engine to get going, and he is great at creating a wall/sac fodder.
The main concern is just how slow it is to really get anywhere. Bitterblossom is sort of a similar style of card but it not being a creature is usually an asset to it. Slow value generators that trigger per turn or on tap tend to be better though as well in a deck like chainer where you have more access to creatures and creature rez though.
I like Withered Wretch and Mindslicer. I play primarily online these days so it will be very easy for me to test these cards. Speaking of online play, the other day I played a game where another played was using XHD and it turns out that he was playing my exact list! Pretty awesome to know other people are liking the deck and using it out there in the aether.
What do you play on? I used to play on trice but got sort of sick of the environment there. I am hoping to get a few decks pushed together on MTGO sometime in the near future. I might have to hit you up for some games at some point.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I play on trice and its pretty much the worst. Maybe 1 out of 10 games are fun or jerk free. I want to play on MODO but I can't justify buying cards on there that I've already purchased in paper. I guess I could sell a portion of my collection and invest into it because I rarely have time for paper MTG anymore... I like my cards though.
I play on trice and its pretty much the worst. Maybe 1 out of 10 games are fun or jerk free. I want to play on MODO but I can't justify buying cards on there that I've already purchased in paper. I guess I could sell a portion of my collection and invest into it because I rarely have time for paper MTG anymore... I like my cards though.
I know what you mean. I still dont have any decks completed on modo but I think I would probably just do some of the mono colored decks that has less staples in it if anything. I think my rebels and toshiro deck would probably be somewhat cheap to slap together for some gameplay there.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
keep in mind, you only have to buy 1 card for as many decks as you want, you just load the list. so your staples like sol and such are pretty cheap to get. most rares are .05 exept cards that see play in any other format. not that bad. you can build several decks for less than 10 tix
Cards are cheaper but messing with bots is so annoying. They never have what I need. I've been looking all day and I haven't seen a cabal coffers or demonic tutor anywhere. I can find most of the commons but its the rares.
Mtgotraders.com or MarlonMtgo.com for the two most reliable bot retailers online I have found. I have no fear of getting ripped off from these two buying OR selling online. plus they have pretty good giveaways. and they have Every card as they have 7 or 8 bots going at once and are updated regularly. if one doesn't have it, another bot will.
Born of the doGs has some pretty awesome cards for mono black and I'm pretty excited for the set. Wizard's has been doing us a solid lately with black cards. Here are some of the main contenders for black in the format.
Bile Blight is a card that doesn't seem to have much use for the format at first. I think that I can be interesting though. It can kill token armies and any utility creatures that have been cloned. Overall it isn't amazing, but if your meta is very token heavy then you should use this card.
Champion of Stray Souls isn't my favorite thing ever. I'm not a rules guru, so if one reads this please clarify, but I'm pretty sure he cannot return the cards that he sacs. This, plus he needs to tap, make him pretty meh. I wouldn't run this card even though it is pretty cool flavor and art wise.
Drown in Sorrow is pretty crazy. It's pretty much Infest with scry. If you can make use of Infest then we have a strict upgrade here.
Eater of Hope might be a little to heavy on the mana side of things. He is a sac outlet and removal all rolled into one though. One would play this card if they were looking for a less broken sac outlet.
Fate Unraveler has a lot going for it. Its a four drop so it works with Dimir House Guard. It drains your opponents life which seems better for a Nekusar deck, but might have some uses in very drain oriented versions of XHD. This is one to watch in the format. It flies under the radar.
Fated Return is just too expensive. Rise of the Dark Realms is much more expensive but the effect is just so much more. I dont see how this one makes the cut.
Forlorn Pseudamma is totally scary. That art is just weird! I think its cool that wizards had the balls to make a card like this though, and I think that it has some potential to see play. It has that magic CMC for Dimir House Guard and it makes tokens. The tokens could always be useful for a more stax oriented deck. Plus it has some evasion. A great card in the right deck.
Gild is amazing. For 4 mana you can just straight exile a creature. Then you get an updated Eldrazi spawn. This gives mono black other answers besides edicts for hard to kill cards. Excellent card that I will try very hard to find room for.
Pain Seer: Bob 2.0. If you can afford to run Dark Confidant you just found some redundancy. A pretty cool card for all formats. It also has two of the best creature types. Pretty cool.
Sanguimancy is pretty awesome card draw. It seems bad early but a huge draw spell in the late game. Might not make the cut, but its one to watch.
To answer on Champion of Stray Souls, no, he cannot return anything he sacs. You choose all targets for the ability and then pay costs, so those creatures aren't yet in the grave when you're targeting.
Born of the doGs has some pretty awesome cards for mono black and I'm pretty excited for the set. Wizard's has been doing us a solid lately with black cards. Here are some of the main contenders for black in the format.
Bile Blight is a card that doesn't seem to have much use for the format at first. I think that I can be interesting though. It can kill token armies and any utility creatures that have been cloned. Overall it isn't amazing, but if your meta is very token heavy then you should use this card.
Champion of Stray Souls isn't my favorite thing ever. I'm not a rules guru, so if one reads this please clarify, but I'm pretty sure he cannot return the cards that he sacs. This, plus he needs to tap, make him pretty meh. I wouldn't run this card even though it is pretty cool flavor and art wise.
Drown in Sorrow is pretty crazy. It's pretty much Infest with scry. If you can make use of Infest then we have a strict upgrade here.
Eater of Hope might be a little to heavy on the mana side of things. He is a sac outlet and removal all rolled into one though. One would play this card if they were looking for a less broken sac outlet.
Fate Unraveler has a lot going for it. Its a four drop so it works with Dimir House Guard. It drains your opponents life which seems better for a Nekusar deck, but might have some uses in very drain oriented versions of XHD. This is one to watch in the format. It flies under the radar.
Fated Return is just too expensive. Rise of the Dark Realms is much more expensive but the effect is just so much more. I dont see how this one makes the cut.
Forlorn Pseudamma is totally scary. That art is just weird! I think its cool that wizards had the balls to make a card like this though, and I think that it has some potential to see play. It has that magic CMC for Dimir House Guard and it makes tokens. The tokens could always be useful for a more stax oriented deck. Plus it has some evasion. A great card in the right deck.
Gild is amazing. For 4 mana you can just straight exile a creature. Then you get an updated Eldrazi spawn. This gives mono black other answers besides edicts for hard to kill cards. Excellent card that I will try very hard to find room for.
Pain Seer: Bob 2.0. If you can afford to run Dark Confidant you just found some redundancy. A pretty cool card for all formats. It also has two of the best creature types. Pretty cool.
Sanguimancy is pretty awesome card draw. It seems bad early but a huge draw spell in the late game. Might not make the cut, but its one to watch.
I think you're confusing Fate Unraveler with Pain Seer. Unraveler makes your opponents loose a life for drawing a card. Pain Seer is basically Dark Confidant and Dark Tutelage except when it untaps. I do like Underworld Connections though. It has more devotion and its life loss is very easily managed.
I didnt add any cards to attempt to answer Erebos even though his anti life gain clause is very good against me. If he is a creature I can get rid of him pretty easily with Fleshbag Marauder or Living Death.
Why would you be excited to run Gild? Sorcery speed targeted removal is generally pretty weak in EDH, the cost is really high, and the upside is pretty weak. sever the bloodline is miles better, and I'm not in love with sever the bloodline either...I'd much rather have something like tragic slip or dismember vs indestructibles.
If it was an instant it would be OK, but as-is...it just sorta sucks. Especially compared to its competitor, hero's downfall.
I also can't imagine why you would run pseudamma outside of limited.
Pain seer is pretty weak. he's ok as a turn 1-2 drop but any later and he's probably trash, plus it's usually at least 2 turns before he cantrips, and 4 before he's gotten you much more value than a simple night's whisper, and that's only if someone's open and he hasn't gotten killed. He might be playable, but bob he is not.
By contrast, I kind of like champion of stray souls. Yes, it's expensive, but by running it in your deck (especially if you're running self-recurring creatures, token producers, geth, etc.) you're saying "if this game gets long and stally, I can constantly keep hammering the field with unkillable threats at least until someone hits grave hate, and maybe even after then", since he recurs any creatures from your grave and also himself. He's not very tempo-y but if it's late and people are burned out he gives you some serious longetivity.
Why would you be excited to run Gild? Sorcery speed targeted removal is generally pretty weak in EDH, the cost is really high, and the upside is pretty weak. sever the bloodline is miles better, and I'm not in love with sever the bloodline either...I'd much rather have something like tragic slip or dismember vs indestructibles.
If it was an instant it would be OK, but as-is...it just sorta sucks. Especially compared to its competitor, hero's downfall.
I also can't imagine why you would run pseudamma outside of limited.
Pain seer is pretty weak. he's ok as a turn 1-2 drop but any later and he's probably trash, plus it's usually at least 2 turns before he cantrips, and 4 before he's gotten you much more value than a simple night's whisper, and that's only if someone's open and he hasn't gotten killed. He might be playable, but bob he is not.
By contrast, I kind of like champion of stray souls. Yes, it's expensive, but by running it in your deck (especially if you're running self-recurring creatures, token producers, geth, etc.) you're saying "if this game gets long and stally, I can constantly keep hammering the field with unkillable threats at least until someone hits grave hate, and maybe even after then", since he recurs any creatures from your grave and also himself. He's not very tempo-y but if it's late and people are burned out he gives you some serious longetivity.
Gild is cool because it exiles and is pretty cheap to cast if you count for its resolving discount. Dismember and Tragic Slip are both cheaper to cast and capable of killing indestructible creatures. They just involve restrictions and drawbacks. Its sorta up to you which to run. In the end you probably wont see any of the three in my deck. Gild is just nice as it plays to my Living Death end game, allowing for the mostly permanent removal of a threat.
Champion of Stray Souls costs a ton of mana, requires sac fodder, and a graveyard. It just has too many drawbacks for me. Some decks might want it, but I don't really see why I would be running that card. It sorta has the same problem that the other creatures have...
You need to be able to tap and untap them. I sorta derped on that one. Both Pain Seer and Mamma need some sort of tap outlet to make them more useful. Attacking isn't always going to be an option, especially in this type of deck. They're still cool cards, just not as good as I thought. Atleast the token maker has evasion.
Innocent Blood has been good for me so far. My build doesn't care about sacrificing creatures and its sorta like a edict for all players. Its nice having a cheap answer to things that can be crazy early like Serra Ascendant or really cheap generals.
I always say that whatever works for your meta is probably what is best. I would be surprised if someone played my exact list.
My meta isn't counter or combo heavy, so targeted discard is a waste of a slot. My meta has great spot removal though, and its sometimes very hard to keep a powerful artifact on the board. So little diffrences like that really make a deck different.
I like your deck and I bet it plays well. I'm not really sure what to suggest though as our metas and visions are pretty different.
Gild is amazing. For 4 mana you can just straight exile a creature. Then you get an updated Eldrazi spawn. This gives mono black other answers besides edicts for hard to kill cards. Excellent card that I will try very hard to find room for.
Just to make sure, if you're this excited about Gild, why aren't you running Sever the Bloodline?
Better token use, and while you don't get a free lotus petal it does bundle with a built-in second use.
I dont really like any sorcery based spot removal.
Likewise. The whole point of spot removal in a multiplayer format, I feel, it to be able to respond. Revoke Existence is the only one I can think of that I've successfully used at some point. Technically Vandalblast, too, but it really doesn't count.
By the way, after following this thread for a good while and a decent amount of testing, I posted my own XHD list.
So far, ambivalent. In an opening hand, enabling something that lets you start drawing more cards more quickly, they can be great, but after that, not so much. The early game is what they're there for, though, because previously I felt the early games were always very slow for this deck and I wasn't able to do anything that made any impact. That changed with the addition of fast artifact mana. However, I still need more testing before I can give a final verdict.
I mean you can beat them but it requires a good draw and smart players at the table. I just try to enjoy playing and accept that I wont be beating Maelstrom Wanderer or Roon of the Hidden Real any time soon.
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Graveyard hate: Withered Wretch - cheap activation, cheap body, and creature based so it is easy to recur
Anti Control Tech: Mindslicer - Both Chainer and Xiahou Dun can easily play out of the GY, and both make recurring him easy.
Also, unlike a few here, I really like Bloodline Keeper. Mono-b can take a while for the engine to get going, and he is great at creating a wall/sac fodder.
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The main concern is just how slow it is to really get anywhere. Bitterblossom is sort of a similar style of card but it not being a creature is usually an asset to it. Slow value generators that trigger per turn or on tap tend to be better though as well in a deck like chainer where you have more access to creatures and creature rez though.
What do you play on? I used to play on trice but got sort of sick of the environment there. I am hoping to get a few decks pushed together on MTGO sometime in the near future. I might have to hit you up for some games at some point.
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[Modern] Allies
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I know what you mean. I still dont have any decks completed on modo but I think I would probably just do some of the mono colored decks that has less staples in it if anything. I think my rebels and toshiro deck would probably be somewhat cheap to slap together for some gameplay there.
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[Modern] Allies
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Playing against Erebos, God of the Dead has been pretty troublesome lately.
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EDH Decks
BGGlissa, the TraitorGB
URTibor and LumiaRU
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticBUW
UBSygg, River CutthroatBU
RGXenagos, God of RevelsGR
UGVorel of the Hull CladeGU
GBSavra, Queen of the GolgariBG
URGMaelstrom WandererGRU
Fate Unreveler If you play Erebos I think you are better off with Underworld Dreams as it gives 3 devotion plus its harder to remove.
Sanguimancy I was pumped to try this at first but the more I look at it, the more it looks like Skeletal Scrying would be more consistent.
Gild This one I will try for sure.
Do you play Ashes to Ashes to answer Erebos?
I didnt add any cards to attempt to answer Erebos even though his anti life gain clause is very good against me. If he is a creature I can get rid of him pretty easily with Fleshbag Marauder or Living Death.
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If it was an instant it would be OK, but as-is...it just sorta sucks. Especially compared to its competitor, hero's downfall.
I also can't imagine why you would run pseudamma outside of limited.
Pain seer is pretty weak. he's ok as a turn 1-2 drop but any later and he's probably trash, plus it's usually at least 2 turns before he cantrips, and 4 before he's gotten you much more value than a simple night's whisper, and that's only if someone's open and he hasn't gotten killed. He might be playable, but bob he is not.
By contrast, I kind of like champion of stray souls. Yes, it's expensive, but by running it in your deck (especially if you're running self-recurring creatures, token producers, geth, etc.) you're saying "if this game gets long and stally, I can constantly keep hammering the field with unkillable threats at least until someone hits grave hate, and maybe even after then", since he recurs any creatures from your grave and also himself. He's not very tempo-y but if it's late and people are burned out he gives you some serious longetivity.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Gild is cool because it exiles and is pretty cheap to cast if you count for its resolving discount. Dismember and Tragic Slip are both cheaper to cast and capable of killing indestructible creatures. They just involve restrictions and drawbacks. Its sorta up to you which to run. In the end you probably wont see any of the three in my deck. Gild is just nice as it plays to my Living Death end game, allowing for the mostly permanent removal of a threat.
Champion of Stray Souls costs a ton of mana, requires sac fodder, and a graveyard. It just has too many drawbacks for me. Some decks might want it, but I don't really see why I would be running that card. It sorta has the same problem that the other creatures have...
You need to be able to tap and untap them. I sorta derped on that one. Both Pain Seer and Mamma need some sort of tap outlet to make them more useful. Attacking isn't always going to be an option, especially in this type of deck. They're still cool cards, just not as good as I thought. Atleast the token maker has evasion.
Innocent Blood has been good for me so far. My build doesn't care about sacrificing creatures and its sorta like a edict for all players. Its nice having a cheap answer to things that can be crazy early like Serra Ascendant or really cheap generals.
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My meta isn't counter or combo heavy, so targeted discard is a waste of a slot. My meta has great spot removal though, and its sometimes very hard to keep a powerful artifact on the board. So little diffrences like that really make a deck different.
I like your deck and I bet it plays well. I'm not really sure what to suggest though as our metas and visions are pretty different.
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Just to make sure, if you're this excited about Gild, why aren't you running Sever the Bloodline?
Better token use, and while you don't get a free lotus petal it does bundle with a built-in second use.
Even Ashes to ashes honestly excites me more.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I dont really like any sorcery based spot removal.
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Likewise. The whole point of spot removal in a multiplayer format, I feel, it to be able to respond. Revoke Existence is the only one I can think of that I've successfully used at some point. Technically Vandalblast, too, but it really doesn't count.
By the way, after following this thread for a good while and a decent amount of testing, I posted my own XHD list.
Dreams of the Sphinx (Sharuum the Hegemon)
Here Today, Gone Tomorrow (Roon of the Hidden Realm)
For vår jord (Azusa, Lost But Seeking)
Black Power (Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed)
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So far, ambivalent. In an opening hand, enabling something that lets you start drawing more cards more quickly, they can be great, but after that, not so much. The early game is what they're there for, though, because previously I felt the early games were always very slow for this deck and I wasn't able to do anything that made any impact. That changed with the addition of fast artifact mana. However, I still need more testing before I can give a final verdict.
Dreams of the Sphinx (Sharuum the Hegemon)
Here Today, Gone Tomorrow (Roon of the Hidden Realm)
For vår jord (Azusa, Lost But Seeking)
Black Power (Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed)