Little off topic, but I am definitely excited for the enemy fetches reprint in MM17. Can finally grab that Arid Mesa and Scalding Tarn for the Crucible of Worlds synergy.
Little off topic, but I am definitely excited for the enemy fetches reprint in MM17. Can finally grab that Arid Mesa and Scalding Tarn for the Crucible of Worlds synergy.
That's one of those engines that feels so good when it gets going. Crucible is already really solid here, which maybe makes it easier to justify spending on fetches for a mono-colored deck?
I'm optimistic about Amonkhet. We know cycling is coming back and there's already a spoiled card that triggers on discarding. That design space is definitely interesting for Jaya.
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I'm thinking Oracle's Vault looks too slow. It takes 3 turns and 10 mana before you start getting good, reliable value out of it. Granted, if you drop it early and invest the mana, it could be outstanding. But, if you're investing the mana early, it means you aren't developing your board state. It's a pretty terrible late game draw.
"2, T: Draw a card (kind of)" is still a decent effect. It's not like the first ability is doing nothing for you. That kind of card advantage is what red has been getting for a few years now, and those cards have been in and out of the deck. Eventually turning into acceleration on top of card advantage is nice upside. It would have been a snap include a couple years ago. There may be enough good options to not need it by now.
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To be honest, I think we're starting to reach some zenith of useful red draw, and new variations of cards that already exist will replace those analogues, or not quite make the cut (c.f.Wheel of fate, Magus of the Wheel).
So far I am not seeing much I am interested in for Jaya. Perhaps next set.
I have been looking into acquiring an Ensnaring Bridge. When my play group whips out their critter decks I seem to be getting targeted (when I have a bunch of artifacts out) or taken out in a big swing. I like the synergy Bridge has with Jaya. I know that we play a lot of cards that attempt to restock our hand but I feel like when we are playing Mono-red it is ok to have an effect like this in the list. Thoughts?
So far I am not seeing much I am interested in for Jaya. Perhaps next set.
I have been looking into acquiring an Ensnaring Bridge. When my play group whips out their critter decks I seem to be getting targeted (when I have a bunch of artifacts out) or taken out in a big swing. I like the synergy Bridge has with Jaya. I know that we play a lot of cards that attempt to restock our hand but I feel like when we are playing Mono-red it is ok to have an effect like this in the list. Thoughts?
We still have half the set to be revelaed. Plenty of room for a good card or two.
On the topic of Ensnaring Bridge; I've been playing it in my own deck for a long time and I've very happy with how the card performs. It's good at covering one of the decks main weaknesses; that being lack of releveant blockers, so you just get atatcked relenetlessly by the first person with a 6/6 down who is looking for a soft target. You usually do not have to be fully hellbent for it to do it's job, which is good for us. Bridge just being on the battlefield turns off many voltron type decks, the vast majority of goodstuff ETB creatures that go into combat, and the ever-present Craterhoof Behemoth. The main reason to consider it in Jaya is that while she is adept at handeling small creature and large swarms of medium sized creatures; anything with a butt of 7 or better is safe and Bridge makes sure those 7/7s don't get to attack. (0/7 creatures can still attack even if you are hellbent, so watch out for Doran) The other interaction worth mentioning is that you can use Jaya at instant speed as a discard outlet. I've used her to pitch a card at the atart of combat, thus raising the bridge so someone couldn't attack with a threatening creature.
I'm still optimistic about the possibility of something decent. There's a lot of cycling/ discard and GY support so far, which line up with Jaya much better than red does in most sets. Insult to Injury is borderline playable as a low risk damage doubler with some utility out of the GY. Oracle's Vault has some potential. Mono-R has gotten enough card advantage tools now that we no longer need to jam everything that even resembles it, so it's not a sure thing, but the upside of free casts later on isn't nothing.
I do like Ensnaring Bridge for the reasons Zygous mentioned. Problem creatures for Jaya tend to be large. Between Jaya's Inferno and discard costs, there's a lot of natural synergy for Bridge. I wish the Stronghold version had a foil printing though. Masterpiece is alright, but not my favorite.
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So far I am not seeing much I am interested in for Jaya. Perhaps next set.
I have been looking into acquiring an Ensnaring Bridge. When my play group whips out their critter decks I seem to be getting targeted (when I have a bunch of artifacts out) or taken out in a big swing. I like the synergy Bridge has with Jaya. I know that we play a lot of cards that attempt to restock our hand but I feel like when we are playing Mono-red it is ok to have an effect like this in the list. Thoughts?
We still have half the set to be revelaed. Plenty of room for a good card or two.
Harsh Mentor seems like a good hate card against infinite combos. Does this little guy have a spot in our deck? With my list getting a little more Stax-ish pieces (Ensnaring Bridge, Torpor Orb, Meekstone)) I feel like he could earn a spot. But is it worth it? I am worried he doesn't impact the board enough, 2 life being meh when the damage is done every so often.
Its a meta call I think.
Do you have to deal with those kind of combos, or do you deal with players who have very tappy decks? Playing a red deck you have to count on every little bit of damage adding up, that it doesn't do that much damage in one shot is probably a good thing, since it makes you less of a target.
I'm excited for Insult // Injury, but I run a spellslinger version with lots of Forks. The card probably isn't actually good, but copying it for quad damage or more will be fun.
The best thing to do is get a feel for your play group and what type/how many artifacts they play. If you need repeatable artifact destruction, Viashino Heretic is the way to go, though if your artifact heavy opponents pack a lot of spot removal the heretic tends to get killed before you get much use out of him. If you see a lot of indestructible artifacts, Into the Core is best followed by Viashino Heretic for repeatable damage versus high CMC artifacts. If you generally only need a one off spell and don't face indestructible artifacts, I'd go with Shattering Spree and Vandalblast. Personally, I like Shattering Spree better than Vandalblast because it would be rare for me to destroy more than 5 artifacts in one shot.
The best thing to do is get a feel for your play group and what type/how many artifacts they play. If you need repeatable artifact destruction, Viashino Heretic is the way to go, though if your artifact heavy opponents pack a lot of spot removal the heretic tends to get killed before you get much use out of him. If you see a lot of indestructible artifacts, Into the Core is best followed by Viashino Heretic for repeatable damage versus high CMC artifacts. If you generally only need a one off spell and don't face indestructible artifacts, I'd go with Shattering Spree and Vandalblast. Personally, I like Shattering Spree better than Vandalblast because it would be rare for me to destroy more than 5 artifacts in one shot.
I am usually the heavy artifact player. I just need something that can deal with a Quicksilver Amulet, Cloudstone Curio, etc. Vandalblast is too good to passs up, but I am leaning towards the Viashino Heretic. I like that it coincides with Jaya's game plan. Appreciate the opinion.
By popular demand, here are my thoughts on Amonkhet for Jaya. I'm focusing on cards I have some interest in picking up for EDH in general, which I hope will cover most of the Jaya options. Per usual, ask if you want thoughts on anything I skip.
Red Combat Celebrant - Not really enough creatures to take advantage of the extra combat step. Only getting it every other turn, even in the rare case Celebrant doesn't die on the swing, is just not enough here. Glorious End - As much as I want to play the mono-R pseudo-counterspell, this deck usually doesn't close out games fast enough to dodge the downside here. Way too narrow for general use in a deck like this. Glorybringer - Solid card that's probably going to get caught up in a wrath. Again, exert only giving you the effect every other turn is kind of rough. Still a possibility. Harsh Mentor - Decent card for the format, if only because it triggers on mana rocks. Jaya typically doesn't exert enough pressure to take advantage of incidental damage like this. Hazoret the Pervert - Solid card with some tension with the deck. I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to generate consistent card advantage in mono-R, which this is the antithesis of. I love that it turns every topdeck into late game reach but I hate being in the situation where it comes online. Heart-Piercer Manticore - Decent card and I always love playing from the yard. The trigger probably doesn't happen often enough to be worth it. Insult to Injury - Easily the best Jaya card in the set. Furnace effects are usually best played as one-shots, so that's not a downside here. Having some effect out of the yard is always desirable as well. I'm not sure it's impactful enough to replace anything in my list. It is the top consideration. Soul-Scar Mage - Basically going to play as a sorcery 75% of the time, because noncombat damage in this deck regularly hits everything. It is a nice answer to problematic indestructible creatures if they're prevalent in your meta, something mono-R has never gotten this cheap before.
Colorless
All the Monuments - As much as I like these, Jaya is not creature heavy enough to take advantage of them. I'll be playing them plenty, just not here. Cradle of the Accursed - I like threats coming out of the manabase. This one is too small and I'm already struggling to find utility land spots. Gate to the Afterlife - Again, not really creature heavy enough. Looting on death and minor lifegain is a decent effect, even without the tutor ability. Like the Monuments, I'll play this in other decks. Grasping Dunes - Similar to the other desert. If it was easier to reuse, I would consider it more highly for the same reasons as Soul-Scar. Throne of the God-Pharaoh - The final entry in the not-creature-heavy saga. Great card when you're making an army, Jaya actively tries to burn armies down.
Not quite as much support as I was hoping for out of a set with these themes. Insult to Injury is definitely a possibility for me. Hazoret and Soul-Scar can both fit into Jaya decks of some flavor, but aren't really needed in mine. While it doesn't support my flagship deck all that well, there's a ton of fun stuff in this set - I think my tentative pickup list is around 65 cards, which is definitely above average.
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Unfortunately, Harsh Mentor doesn't trigger on mana rocks since "mana abilities" are excluded. It would be particularly interesting if it triggered on your own activated abilities, not just your opponent's.
Two cards I think you missed that are worth mentioning: By Force - This is really solid artifact hate. It's almost as good a Shattering Spree and makes a great budget replacement.
Oracle's Vault - A year or two ago, this would have been an auto-include. Now, I don't think it's quite good enough for Jaya's deck. However, I think it will find a spot in my Kazuul deck where I run Omen Machine and Uba Mask.
Still haven't tried any but I'm thinking of dropping Skred for Insult // Injury, mostly because Skred is my last snow dependent card and I want to use foil mountains. There was nothing that I felt was a snap include in AKH and my Jaya list changes at a glacial pace these days, so that's not surprising.
Stuffy Doll is something I have wanted to try for awhile (I know that its kinda a staple on EDHrec lists), especially like that Time Spiral art. I am worried that the combo potential of my meta makes it too slow. How have you liked Stuffy Doll over the years, Weebo? Since it has helped you stabilize I assume you have good things to say.
Stuffy Doll is something I have wanted to try for awhile (I know that its kinda a staple on EDHrec lists), especially like that Time Spiral art. I am worried that the combo potential of my meta makes it too slow. How have you liked Stuffy Doll over the years, Weebo? Since it has helped you stabilize I assume you have good things to say.
It took me forever to get around to trying it and I've liked it since adding it. It's a solid roadblock for ground attackers, occasionally makes a good equipment holder (Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice), and pretty regularly adds some damage off Jaya, even more so with damage doubling effects. I could see it being poorer in a combo heavy meta but I honestly don't have a very high opinion of Jaya in general in a combo heavy meta, at least with the way I have her built. A long game control deck with few ways to interact with the stack or enchantments (i.e. mono-R) is going to match up poorly with EDH combo decks. I would definitely build Jaya to be more aggressive and explosive if I was expecting heavy combos and I'm not sure Stuffy has a place in a deck like that. It might, just for the force multiplier element with mass burn and/or damage doublers, but it would take more testing than in a controlling list built for a combat heavy meta.
I'm pretty sure using the TSP art is objectively correct for Stuffy.
delayed edit: I wouldn't read too far into EDHREC, either. It's a good tool to get an idea of what other people are doing with a general. Not taking meta considerations or time spent testing and tuning limits how useful any of the suggestions there can be. I don't use 5/14 signature cards for Jaya and I've seen my primer list copied on tappedout a couple times, so it has a disproportionate impact (not a huge one, but more than a single list).
I use Jaya a bit differently. My group tends to keep one another in check pretty well. Combo kills aren't the regular but they do come up. My stax pieces and copy spells (normally targeting counterspells: eventually they may be swapped for Pyroblast effects, etcl) are able to keep the board fair to some degree.
Though combo exists, my meta is also quite healthy with a variety of decks. For example, the Momir Vig combo player mains a competitive-as-possible Mayeal stompy list.
For EDHrec I filter out the non-competitive cards. This is my favorite way to use the site. I agree that the normal page doesn't always have the best info and that I normally use it as a base. Fortunately, my years playing Mono-red I already have a firm base.
I'm optimistic about Amonkhet. We know cycling is coming back and there's already a spoiled card that triggers on discarding. That design space is definitely interesting for Jaya.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Oracle's Vault looks a lot like Chandra, Pyromaster and Outpost Siege, and I think it's probably worse than those cards. Do you really need another one?
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I have been looking into acquiring an Ensnaring Bridge. When my play group whips out their critter decks I seem to be getting targeted (when I have a bunch of artifacts out) or taken out in a big swing. I like the synergy Bridge has with Jaya. I know that we play a lot of cards that attempt to restock our hand but I feel like when we are playing Mono-red it is ok to have an effect like this in the list. Thoughts?
We still have half the set to be revelaed. Plenty of room for a good card or two.
I'm thinking of trying out Oracle's Vault and Glorybringer.
On the topic of Ensnaring Bridge; I've been playing it in my own deck for a long time and I've very happy with how the card performs. It's good at covering one of the decks main weaknesses; that being lack of releveant blockers, so you just get atatcked relenetlessly by the first person with a 6/6 down who is looking for a soft target. You usually do not have to be fully hellbent for it to do it's job, which is good for us. Bridge just being on the battlefield turns off many voltron type decks, the vast majority of goodstuff ETB creatures that go into combat, and the ever-present Craterhoof Behemoth. The main reason to consider it in Jaya is that while she is adept at handeling small creature and large swarms of medium sized creatures; anything with a butt of 7 or better is safe and Bridge makes sure those 7/7s don't get to attack. (0/7 creatures can still attack even if you are hellbent, so watch out for Doran) The other interaction worth mentioning is that you can use Jaya at instant speed as a discard outlet. I've used her to pitch a card at the atart of combat, thus raising the bridge so someone couldn't attack with a threatening creature.
I do like Ensnaring Bridge for the reasons Zygous mentioned. Problem creatures for Jaya tend to be large. Between Jaya's Inferno and discard costs, there's a lot of natural synergy for Bridge. I wish the Stronghold version had a foil printing though. Masterpiece is alright, but not my favorite.
Whoops. Forgot about the other week.
Do you have to deal with those kind of combos, or do you deal with players who have very tappy decks? Playing a red deck you have to count on every little bit of damage adding up, that it doesn't do that much damage in one shot is probably a good thing, since it makes you less of a target.
RIP Karn EDH
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
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I am usually the heavy artifact player. I just need something that can deal with a Quicksilver Amulet, Cloudstone Curio, etc. Vandalblast is too good to passs up, but I am leaning towards the Viashino Heretic. I like that it coincides with Jaya's game plan. Appreciate the opinion.
Red
Combat Celebrant - Not really enough creatures to take advantage of the extra combat step. Only getting it every other turn, even in the rare case Celebrant doesn't die on the swing, is just not enough here.
Glorious End - As much as I want to play the mono-R pseudo-counterspell, this deck usually doesn't close out games fast enough to dodge the downside here. Way too narrow for general use in a deck like this.
Glorybringer - Solid card that's probably going to get caught up in a wrath. Again, exert only giving you the effect every other turn is kind of rough. Still a possibility.
Harsh Mentor - Decent card for the format, if only because it triggers on mana rocks. Jaya typically doesn't exert enough pressure to take advantage of incidental damage like this.
Hazoret the Pervert - Solid card with some tension with the deck. I've spent a lot of time and effort trying to generate consistent card advantage in mono-R, which this is the antithesis of. I love that it turns every topdeck into late game reach but I hate being in the situation where it comes online.
Heart-Piercer Manticore - Decent card and I always love playing from the yard. The trigger probably doesn't happen often enough to be worth it.
Insult to Injury - Easily the best Jaya card in the set. Furnace effects are usually best played as one-shots, so that's not a downside here. Having some effect out of the yard is always desirable as well. I'm not sure it's impactful enough to replace anything in my list. It is the top consideration.
Soul-Scar Mage - Basically going to play as a sorcery 75% of the time, because noncombat damage in this deck regularly hits everything. It is a nice answer to problematic indestructible creatures if they're prevalent in your meta, something mono-R has never gotten this cheap before.
Colorless
All the Monuments - As much as I like these, Jaya is not creature heavy enough to take advantage of them. I'll be playing them plenty, just not here.
Cradle of the Accursed - I like threats coming out of the manabase. This one is too small and I'm already struggling to find utility land spots.
Gate to the Afterlife - Again, not really creature heavy enough. Looting on death and minor lifegain is a decent effect, even without the tutor ability. Like the Monuments, I'll play this in other decks.
Grasping Dunes - Similar to the other desert. If it was easier to reuse, I would consider it more highly for the same reasons as Soul-Scar.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh - The final entry in the not-creature-heavy saga. Great card when you're making an army, Jaya actively tries to burn armies down.
Not quite as much support as I was hoping for out of a set with these themes. Insult to Injury is definitely a possibility for me. Hazoret and Soul-Scar can both fit into Jaya decks of some flavor, but aren't really needed in mine. While it doesn't support my flagship deck all that well, there's a ton of fun stuff in this set - I think my tentative pickup list is around 65 cards, which is definitely above average.
Combat Celebrant needs haste to be worth it. Otherwise, it competes with Relentless Assault and World at War (not to mention Savage Beating and Aggravated Assault). It is much less mana to cast than Hellkite Charger, but much less of a danger in and of itself.
Unfortunately, Harsh Mentor doesn't trigger on mana rocks since "mana abilities" are excluded. It would be particularly interesting if it triggered on your own activated abilities, not just your opponent's.
Hazoret the Pervert <=
Two cards I think you missed that are worth mentioning:
By Force - This is really solid artifact hate. It's almost as good a Shattering Spree and makes a great budget replacement.
Oracle's Vault - A year or two ago, this would have been an auto-include. Now, I don't think it's quite good enough for Jaya's deck. However, I think it will find a spot in my Kazuul deck where I run Omen Machine and Uba Mask.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Played a fun Jaya game last night. Others at the table were Yeva, Nature's Herald elfball, Atraxa, Praetors' Voice +1/+1 counters, and Samut, Voice of Dissent beats. Managed to take Yeva out T4 or so with Repercussion into Blasphemous Act (only the first or second time I've pulled this off) before getting reasonably well held down by Samut's removal and Trygon Predator. Later on I made my way from 2 life to 4 life with Inventors' Fair to survive a 3 damage hit from one of Atraxa's creatures and stabilized with Stuffy Doll on Atraxa. The game ended with Past in Flames to recast Act, killing Atraxa and wiping Samut's board, and a Kobolds of Kher Keep holding Sword of War and Peace killing Samut by flashing back PiF to flashback Wheel of Fortune for a lethal trigger the following turn.
I'm pretty sure using the TSP art is objectively correct for Stuffy.
delayed edit: I wouldn't read too far into EDHREC, either. It's a good tool to get an idea of what other people are doing with a general. Not taking meta considerations or time spent testing and tuning limits how useful any of the suggestions there can be. I don't use 5/14 signature cards for Jaya and I've seen my primer list copied on tappedout a couple times, so it has a disproportionate impact (not a huge one, but more than a single list).
Though combo exists, my meta is also quite healthy with a variety of decks. For example, the Momir Vig combo player mains a competitive-as-possible Mayeal stompy list.
For EDHrec I filter out the non-competitive cards. This is my favorite way to use the site. I agree that the normal page doesn't always have the best info and that I normally use it as a base. Fortunately, my years playing Mono-red I already have a firm base.
Thanks for the info, Weebo.