Long answer: Instead of going over all those card draws, here's a few in particular I like/have an opinion stronger than "meh" about. Incendiary Command is a cheap sandwich from a shop on the way home. It's never as good as you want it to be but it's still food that's hard to really complain about. Shattered Perception is pretty bad. Even in a comparatively mana-flooded deck that's willing to pitch cards the odds that you'll have a hand that's both sizable enough to be worth replacing and bad enough to be worth ditching is pretty low. Looters do this card's job much better. Browbeat will never get you what you want in a multiplayer game. A one shot for five damage is pretty soft considering how willing most players are to take that instead of giving someone else cards. Reforge the Soul is the bee's knees even when hardcast. Mindmoil is a funny card but typically stronger when you have specific cards you're digging for as you tuck your hand a few times a turn. If you want repeatable hand replacing Teferi's Puzzle Box is a strong option as it can disrupt other players as well. Or help them find their combo pieces. You know, either or.
Also, Aftershock is loved because it provides versatility that very few other cards in red can match. Three damage is nothing given the format. Always remember that life is merely a resource; winning at one life is just as much a victory as winning at forty.
Barrin's Codex is very underrated. You can get it out early and it just builds up counters. It's not uncommon to get 3+ cards out of it. Since it's a delayed draw it's not the best top deck in the late game, but you have to work with what you go, especially if you're keeping to your strict budget.
Of the draw spells you listed, Seer's Sundial is amazing. You should consider it over Sorcerer's Strongbox and Browbeat which I think are you're weakest two draw spells.
I've not been a big fan of Faithless Looting and Mad Prophet. The fact that they don't provide any card advantage and only card selection was a big strike against them, since I felt they were only good if I had found Squee first.
I used to play Insurrection but cut it. The plan for cards like it and Mass Mutiny is that you have to let the board get a little bit out of hand and then you can play them for huge swings and maybe kill multiple players. I found that this clashes with Jaya, because you want to use her Inferno to keep the board under control so that situations where Mass Mutiny are good seldom occur. I am speaking from my own decks view, so take this in through your own lens and think about how mutiny works in your own deck.
Viashino Heretic is in my own deck and he is a very strong card. Being able to repeatedly kill artifacts is good. Vandalblast is also a fantastic card.
Before you go and change 10 cards in your deck on the fly; I recommend you take some time to play your deck as is and just pay attention to any cards that don't live up to your expectations of them. Also, you want to consider what cards you're having trouble beating and how you want to change your deck to handle those. Maybe you do need to add more draw or ramp, but maybe you need a new answer instead that lets you handle a card you can't normally deal with.
You can always take your time and slowly try out new cards and see how you like them. I like doing that better then just slotting in several new cards. I never consider my EDH decks done, it's all about slowly sculpting them to be better and better.
Have you considered Blood Knight? It's only $0.41 and it has first strike and can carry Butcher's Cleaver well. Protection makes it hard to block too, so it can often score hits against a white player and the card does a great job of being a good defensive card in the early game to deter someone who gets out an early creature from attacking you with it. Other good first strikers are Splatter Thug and the red wearwolves, but they aren't human when they flip.
@shenabagananins
Thanks for the comments! They helped me confirm some of my suspicions. I used to play Incendiary Command and Shattered Perception to complement Moonring Mirror, but most of the time I drew them I didn't have Moonring Mirror in play and my impressions matched your statements.
The one time I got Mindmoil in play, it was incredibly useful to me. It also helps search out Moonring Mirror, which results in a huge amount of cards drawn, enabling me to quickly refill your hand. Teferi's Puzzle Box is on my wants list, but I couldn't find one for less than about $2.50, which is out of budget for my deck.
Re: Browbeat
Every time I play this card, I draw 3 cards. No one in the group I play with is willing to take one for the team and absorb the 5 damage. I don't know if this is because they're overly selfish or my deck just isn't enough of a threat to bother, but this card has been outstanding for me. (It's probably because they are more worried about the blue player who is drawing 1600 cards per turn trying to set up his combo and me drawing 3 cards will only help us shut him down.)
Barrin's Codex - Costs 8 mana and must be in play for 3 rounds to get 3 cards. Sorcerer's Strongbox - On average, costs 8 mana and must be in play 3 rounds (assuming you tap it the turn it comes into play) to get 3 cards.
The difference is that Barrin's Codex has the opportunity to yield more than 3 cards if drawn early in the game and allowed to sit for longer. Sorcerer's Strongbox has the opportunity to instantly yield 3 cards late game if you're lucky on the first coin flip. Also, Sorcerer's Strongbox has a synergy with Jaya as I frequently hold back 2 mana for Jaya's incinerate (particularly when equipped with deathtouch equipment). If I don't need the incinerate, I can pump it into the strongbox. The downside is that Sorcerer's Strongbox could, in theory, take an infinite amount of mana and never yield any cards.
Based on your recommendation, I'm going to replace Mad Prophet with Seer's Sundial. As you pointed out, Mad Prophet gives no card advantage, plus he gets nuked by Jaya's inferno. I left Seer's Sundial out of my deck because it wasn't raw drawing power to fuel Jaya's discard since it forced me to drop a land to get a card. However, it has good synergy with many of my lands (particularly Ghost Town) and it's rare for me to have too much mana on the table.
I also like your point about Faithless Looting. I'll look into replacing it with either artifact or graveyard hate. I really like Viashino Heretic, but left him out due to concerns about getting nuked by Jaya's inferno. Have you had problems with Jaya killing him frequently?
Quote from Zygous »
Have you considered Blood Knight? ... Other good first strikers are Splatter Thug and the red wearwolves, but they aren't human when they flip.
I've found that Viashino Heretic performs very well in my list. Normally, there are only a few artifacts in play that you'd want to kill at any one time anyway, so just being able to plop him down and Detonate a powerful artifact or two is good enough. He also pressures your opponents life total and is particularly good if an opponent lands an indestructible artifact, since it wont die, but they'll wish it did because you can continue to target it with Heretic to hit them very hard.
I normally don't have a problem with Jaya killing my own creatures. I realize that there are times when I just have to inferno even at the loss of my own board. The nice thing about Heretic is that you can always wait till right before it's your turn to activate him, so you can use him as a blocker if you need to. I often throw away creatures in a block to preserve my life total if I know I'm going to Inferno on my next turn cycle and reset the table.
One thing you may want to try doing is finding a played Jeska that is in a little worse condition. It'll be cheaper, but still the same card. Does that count as a way to dodge your budget restrictions?
I am really excited for the recently spoiled Act on Impulse. That cards seems amazing for red decks. I suspect that on average you'll be able to get 2 cards out of casting it. You're pretty likely to hit at least 1 land so that gives you a free drop for the turn and one castable spell. The nice thing is that in the late game you have a good chance of being able to cast all 3 cards, which is a huge value to a gassed out player.
Re: Browbeat
Every time I play this card, I draw 3 cards. No one in the group I play with is willing to take one for the team and absorb the 5 damage. I don't know if this is because they're overly selfish or my deck just isn't enough of a threat to bother, but this card has been outstanding for me. (It's probably because they are more worried about the blue player who is drawing 1600 cards per turn trying to set up his combo and me drawing 3 cards will only help us shut him down.)
No one I play with will let the card draw effect go on Browbeat because we never give each other anything for free. But hey, if your friends let you have it, then take it and smile.
Quote from Zygous »
I am really excited for the recently spoiled Act on Impulse. That cards seems amazing for red decks. I suspect that on average you'll be able to get 2 cards out of casting it. You're pretty likely to hit at least 1 land so that gives you a free drop for the turn and one castable spell. The nice thing is that in the late game you have a good chance of being able to cast all 3 cards, which is a huge value to a gassed out player.
I had the same reaction when I saw it. I really want to give it and Aggressive Mining a spin.
I've found that Viashino Heretic performs very well in my list. Normally, there are only a few artifacts in play that you'd want to kill at any one time anyway, so just being able to plop him down and Detonate a powerful artifact or two is good enough. He also pressures your opponents life total and is particularly good if an opponent lands an indestructible artifact, since it wont die, but they'll wish it did because you can continue to target it with Heretic to hit them very hard.
I had not realized that Viashino Heretic could still damage players with indestructible artifacts. That's pretty awesome!
Quote from Zygous »
One thing you may want to try doing is finding a played Jeska that is in a little worse condition. It'll be cheaper, but still the same card. Does that count as a way to dodge your budget restrictions?
Yes, that counts. I have Darksteel Plate, Steel Hellkite, and Blasphemous Act in my deck, each of which I acquired for less than $0.50. The restriction is primarily to prevent me from spending too much money, but also to prove that fun, fairly effective EDH decks can be built on a budget. Additionally, it's a fun challenge that forces me to use different cards than standards that get played all the time.
Quote from Zygous »
I am really excited for the recently spoiled Act on Impulse.
Looks like one I'll have to add to my wants list. Hopefully, it costs less than $0.50.
Fortune Thief - This one that seems a bit difficult to use. Most of the spells and effects in my deck that damage me would also kill her (Jaya's inferno, Pyrohemia, Magma Phoenix, etc.).
Elixir of Immortality - Not sure I like one-shot nature of this card. Plus, it also loses me access to my graveyard and my deck has several cards that take advantage of the graveyard. I think I'll stick with Sun Droplet and Trading Post for now.
I still haven't gotten a chance to look at the lockdown cards you mentioned.
Aside from the 8 I included in the deck (see spoiler below) I have the following: Kher Keep, Madblind Mountain, Phyrexia's Core, Rogue's Passage
Does anyone have any good rules of thumb for an appropriate ratio of basic Mountains to non-basic colorless mana producing lands?
Are any of these 4 lands worth including?
Is Kher Keep worth including if I don't own Skullclamp?
Burnished Hart is slow but more than fine for a budget deck. Ring of Valkas I'm less a fan of; Fervor should be easy to find at around fifty cents. I think Druidic Satchel is solid for decks without a great number of ramp options and for this deck in particular it'll always give you something functional even if it isn't what you really wanted. I'd cut Burning Sands first as it's a card with amazing backfire potential and depending on your group can easily get you unwanted heat. Kher Keep is better when you have equipment like Skullclamp, sure, but it's still a creature generator and you have a few things in your deck that can turn them into respectable sources of damage.
To whom it may concern: I know not everyone is a fan of Treasonous Ogre for this deck but for me it has been Fun Times. That is all.
I wouldn't worry about adding more colorless nonbasic lands to your budget list. I'm trying to keep my mountain count at 20 or above right now, you have 30 currently and I wouldn't worry about it until you're dipping down to below 24.
Of the nonbasic lands you listed, Kher Keep is by far the best. I play it in my own deck and I don't run it for Skullclamp. I play it for synergy with Portcullis. It is a fine card on it's own though. The Kobalds make great chump blockers and because you have a few equipments that pump power, the kobalds can get suited up and attack in a pinch. Throw Kher Keep in and see how you like the little kobalds.
I wouldn't add any of the other lands. I've tried Madblind Mountain and Nyktos, but Jaya decks tend to play so many artifacts that getting enough red permanents for them to work never seems to happen.
I really like having more haste enablers in my own Jaya deck, but I tend to play more heavier top end creatures. The big old Dragons really benefit from the haste. You're own list tends to run more small and medium creatures and really loads up on the phoenixes, so a good deal of your creatures don't need haste because they can self recur. If you're looking to add more haste for Jaya. I would probably only add 1 card and it would be Racecourse Fury. It does cost you 1 mana like some of the artifacts, but being an aura on a land means it's pretty unlikely to be killed.
Burning Sands seems like you're weakest card. It give opponents a lot of impetus to knock you off the table since they are 1 Inferno away from going back to the start of the game. It gets worse when you add Kher Keep.
Druidic Satchel is always going to gain the same amount of life during a game as Sun Droplet would. I know you have to invest mana. You have 38 lands and 14 creatures so you only have a 52/99 cards that don't give you 2 life. Satchel will give you 2 life every 2 turns without the need to take damage and it can ramp you can give blockers.
I'll 2nd Burnished Hart. That little elk has become a very popular include in monocolored EDH decks. You even play Trading Post and Buried Ruin which means looping him is a possibility. I'd cut Grinning Ignus for B-Hart.
Cinder Cloud may be a card you'd want. It is pretty much just a 2nd Fissure, but sometimes having more instant speed removal can be very desirable.
shenabagananins, what kinds of plays has the Ogre been enabling for you?
I see a lot of talk about Aftershock, Fissure and Lava Flow, but no mention of Cinder Cloud. It's another kill spell and best of all, it's instant speed, which Aftershock and Lavaflow both lack. However, Cloud lacks in the ability to hit non-creatures. Personally, the instant speed unconditional kill is well worth it for mono-red and is especially hilarious when targeting a big white fatty.
shenabagananins, what kinds of plays has the Ogre been enabling for you?
Big, dumb, and splashy plays. He's like a surprise mana doubler in the right situations because the resources he can give can help me end or fundamentally change the game in my favor. He can provide spots of mana in a pinch, too, which is nice. Of course there are times where I don't have the cards or the life to let him loose the way I want to. That's fine, though, because then I just pitch him to Jaya to still get value out of him. I actually like the Ogre more in this deck than I would have in my older red decks I used to run. He could power out a one-turn win in Godo, yes, and help me maneuver well with smaller plays in Diaochan and Fumiko. But dead cards in those decks did nothing but stay dead and with Godo in particular I couldn't afford to have dead cards. Jaya lets me play more towards the potential of a few slots of cards I have rather than needing to tune it to the highest end.
Swapping Grinning Ignus for Burnished Hart also looks like a good idea. Grinning Ignus helps me get larger spells off earlier, but Burnished Hart is better for the long game.
I really like having more haste enablers in my own Jaya deck, but I tend to play more heavier top end creatures. The big old Dragons really benefit from the haste...If you're looking to add more haste for Jaya. I would probably only add 1 card and it would be Racecourse Fury. It does cost you 1 mana like some of the artifacts, but being an aura on a land means it's pretty unlikely to be killed.
So, you run haste more for the beaters than for Jaya herself? Good to know. I've stuck with lower mana cost creatures because not having mana doublers and other pricey rampers (Sol Ring, etc.), makes casting larger creatures unreliable (especially if I want to hang onto mana for Jaya, Kumano, etc.).
I actually picked up Mark of Fury instead of Racecourse Fury because I thought having it bounce back to my hand would be nice for Jaya's discard. However, I neglected to consider durability. I think I can obtain Fervor easily in a local trade, so if I add one more, I'll probably go with that one.
Druidic Satchel is always going to gain the same amount of life during a game as Sun Droplet would. I know you have to invest mana. You have 38 lands and 14 creatures so you only have a 52/99 cards that don't give you 2 life. Satchel will give you 2 life every 2 turns without the need to take damage and it can ramp you can give blockers.
I think you missed that Sun Droplet is "each upkeep" not "your upkeep." In a 5 player game, if I inferno everyone for 6 on my turn, I'll have gained 5 hit points back by the time it is my turn again. Druidic Satchel can't keep up with that.
What about using Slagwurm Armor to either inferno proof Jaya or another creature?
Normally I'd say Red Sun's Zenith between those two but given the CMC of a good chunk of your deck Titan's Revenge should be workable.
Slagwurm Armor is functional here but I think Ensouled Scimitar is more fun. Costs more to play but less to equip and it can turn into an awkward flying creature.
Normally I'd say Red Sun's Zenith between those two but given the CMC of a good chunk of your deck Titan's Revenge should be workable.
Slagwurm Armor is functional here but I think Ensouled Scimitar is more fun. Costs more to play but less to equip and it can turn into an awkward flying creature.
Red Sun Zenith exiles the creature you kill, which is a value not to be underestimated.
I've tried clash cards in EH before and they never work out. While you may have a few high cost cards unless you're playing against decks with very low manacurves, like monoblue counterspells, then the card is usually just a 1 shot Blaze. (Note: You still have to resolve it against mono blue counterspells.) Since we are talking about the extreme budget list, cards like Sensei's Top are not present which is the best way to set up a clash win.
I gave Treasonous Ogre a try. I had a lot of trouble using him for mana. I really just want to jam him and pay life to drop several cards, but it ends up being too big a commitment to spend that amount of life on a play that isn't threatening to win the game on it's own.
One deck has been giving me trouble as of late is Marchesa, the Black Rose. Most versions are built with a ton of recursion so I get in situations where I can kill their board, but it all comes right back. Another annoyance has been that Marchesa often sets up a combo win with Bearer of the Heavens that can completely dodge GY hate from Grafdigger's Cage or Tormod's Crypt. I'm probably going to put Kumano, Master Yamabushi back in the deck and see how he treats me this time. His exile clause is very tempting.
Weebo: Any thoughts on a card watch list for M15 and Conspiracy? (I think you already handled the other releases.)
Sure. I haven't been playing this (or magic) as much recently, which is the big reason I'm not all that active in the thread. I do still keep up with it, so feel free to ask for specific opinions if you want them. I can definitely throw up my thoughts on the new stuff. Note that I haven't actually played with any of these yet and I'm only talking the ones that I think look worth testing, or the ones I think may be misevaluated.Conspiracy Coercive Portal - Definitely worth trying out. I don't commit to the board very heavily, and there should typically be at least one other player in a 4 man game that doesn't want the board wiped. Needing to be outvoted 3-1 makes this fairly reliable card draw.
Deal Broker - The first colorless looter, to the best of my knowledge. I prefer traditional looting to red's looting, because it's guaranteed to at least keep the quality of your hand the same. Red's looting is a little more of a gamble. While that's a flavorful fit, it doesn't necessarily translate well to actual gameplay.
Grenzo's Rebuttal - It's expensive and relies on the turn order, but it does kill a fair amount of stuff for the cost. It's obviously better if you're committing almost nothing to the board, or following up a complete wipe a couple turns later. Probably not good enough to bump anything, but it might be alright in certain lists. Don't discount the value of a 4/4 on an empty board, either.
Ignition Team - Might actually be alight. As long as it comes down against a lot of tapped lands, this offers you a large threat, a source of additional threats, and a way to nuke opposing problem lands. Seven mana is an awful lot, but it might be a decent lategame threat. Surviving Jaya's inferno is a big perk on any creature.
Scourge of the Throne - Maybe in a creature heavy deck. It survives Jaya after a couple turns if you can hit the high life total and it can rapidly bring life totals down, but it loses more of it's power if you're ahead on life. That's not impossible if you have Basilisk Collar and/or Batterskull.
Treasonous Ogre - I'd expect the life payment to be too much here. This isn't really a dedicated combo deck, so a gradual buildup of mana sources is better than spending a lot of life on a single burst. M15 Act on Impulse - Spicy. I'm definitely trying this out, and it shouldn't take much explanation to figure out why. It's obviously a late game card, but that offers a lot of gas for just a few mana. Play this pre-land drop whenever possible.
Aggressive Mining - Maybe. It's a lot of card draw, but this is a deck that thrives on lots of mana. I don't think this is the right deck for it, but there's a really interesting red deck to be built that can play around the downside effectively. Possibly something like Slobad, where you're relying on mana rocks even more heavily than usual.
Avarice Amulet - Possibly worthwhile. It's a draw engine that only functions with Jaya out, basically. It does give you a bit of a win con too, because you can swing and shoot a blocker at the same time. Remember that sending Jaya back to the command zone is a replacement effect, and means she never died.
Chandra, Pyromaster - Reprint, but she's much more affordable now. Definitely worth grabbing if you don't have her yet.
Generator Servant - Interesting, but the single shot kind of kills it. It doesn't really accelerate into Jaya the first time, and there are better sources of haste over the long game.
Goblin Kaboomist - Kind of interesting. I would skip him entirely, but keeping red creatures from killing themselves is something of a theme here. He could be an interesting early defensive option.
Goblin Rabblemaster - The tokens are unlikely to survive, can't really be abused, and he's not gonig to swing big all that often. If you're running a more creature heavy list with Skullclamp and want something to support Goblin Assault, I could see it.
Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient - Better suited to his own deck. I know I don't run heavy enough on artifact activated abilities to include a more fragile, more limited Rings of Brighthearth.
Perilous Vault - Not bad as an additional wrath. I think I still go for Oblivion Stone first, because I actually do want a reasonable amount of things in my yard for reuse. OK as a second or third mass wipe.
Soul of New Phyrexia - Solid beater with a relevant ability. It gets very, very expensive to use that and activate Jaya in one turn, but still pretty solid.
Soul of Shandalar - Decent. I like that it's not a complete dud in the yard, and he seems like a lot of damage with heavy mana production. I think I'll be trying him out. Act on Impulse is basically an autoinclude, and I think there are some very good arguments for a few others (Coercive Portal, Deal Broker, and Soul of Shandalar are probably my three runners up). Overall, this was a good pair of sets for mono red decks. The next exciting thing is Commander 2014 - I know a lot of people are with me in hoping for Jaya as the red walker, but I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with a red walker being designed for EDH regardless. It's going to be very interesting to see what WotC comes up with for a mono red EDH list.
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I got to play with Goblin Kaboomist at the prerelease. He is better then he looks.
Kaboomist is an early drop that can come down and start making mines every turn. Even if he dies, the mine tokens will stay around allowing you to throw 1 or more at any menacing ground creature that comes your way. Mines can be a great onboard trick. I play paper games, so I'd likely represent the mines as a mine token with a dice on it, which is pretty easy for someone to miss and not think about when they are declaring attacks, you can even play politics with the mines and use them to save another player from an attack.
A stockpile of mines is likely to stick around for a long time too. Nobody is going to waste kills spells on your artifact tokens.
Protecting the Kaboomist is easier then it looks. Any Gauntlet will give him 3 toughness and require 2 failed flips to kill him. Popping 2 mines give him only a 25% of killing himself if pumped with +1/+1, but the chance of him dying as a 2/3 goes up to 37.5% for 3 flips, then 50% for 4 flips, then 59.38% for 5 flips; but flipping 5 coins means your killing a 9 or 10 toughness creature. For creatures at 6 toughness at below, Kaboomist has a reasonable chance at surviving if pumped by a Gauntlet.
Since the mines are artifact tokens, there is synergy with Trading Post and Goblin Welder with are staples in Weebo's and WyvernSlayer's Jaya decks.
You're misreading Kaboomist slightly. The coin lip is part of the mine creation ability, not the mine activation. If you can buff his toughness up at all he's never in danger of killing himself. The downside to that is that he's more likely to kill himself early than he is the way you're reading him. If one of the reasons to play him is that he comes down early to redirect attacks, then that's a little worse.
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I dropped Squee because he only has one purpose in my list. The only thing I ever wanted to do with him was discard him. While he's very good at being discarded every turn, probably the best at it, I was never going to do anything else with him. I decided I would rather have things like additional land tutors, which gave me fodder late game and land drops early, or more phoenix, who can be discard fodder or evasive beaters. He's still a really solid red card but I was just looking for cards with other uses, even if they were slightly worse as discard options. I'd run him again in a heartbeat if I went for a goblin package or a more creature heavy list with Skullclamp.
I consider Kazuul a lot, but I want my defensive stuff to be noncreature or otherwise able to survive a board wipe. There's a pretty good chance he's good enough anyways.
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Deal Broker is a very good colorless looter which probably got overlooked by everyone because of his draft ability. Considering him being an artifact also gives your deck another point of sinergy, isn't it worth considering over Mad Prophet?
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Commander:GB Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (list) - U Talrand, Sky Summoner - GRU Maelstrom Wanderer
Deal Broker is a very good colorless looter which probably got overlooked by everyone because of his draft ability. Considering him being an artifact also gives your deck another point of sinergy, isn't it worth considering over Mad Prophet?
He is and I already have the foil, I just haven't updated the deck or the main posts in a few months. There are a couple new things that are going to go in.
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Bleh, that's what I get for only reading the decklist in the OP.
By the way, how do you feel about Possibility Storm as red control, not necessarily in this deck? I found it unexpectedly useful as it shuts down counterspells and makes it harder to assemble combos.
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Commander:GB Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (list) - U Talrand, Sky Summoner - GRU Maelstrom Wanderer
Pauper:UR some horrible homebrew izzet deck
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Long answer: Instead of going over all those card draws, here's a few in particular I like/have an opinion stronger than "meh" about.
Incendiary Command is a cheap sandwich from a shop on the way home. It's never as good as you want it to be but it's still food that's hard to really complain about.
Shattered Perception is pretty bad. Even in a comparatively mana-flooded deck that's willing to pitch cards the odds that you'll have a hand that's both sizable enough to be worth replacing and bad enough to be worth ditching is pretty low. Looters do this card's job much better.
Browbeat will never get you what you want in a multiplayer game. A one shot for five damage is pretty soft considering how willing most players are to take that instead of giving someone else cards.
Reforge the Soul is the bee's knees even when hardcast.
Mindmoil is a funny card but typically stronger when you have specific cards you're digging for as you tuck your hand a few times a turn. If you want repeatable hand replacing Teferi's Puzzle Box is a strong option as it can disrupt other players as well. Or help them find their combo pieces. You know, either or.
Also, Aftershock is loved because it provides versatility that very few other cards in red can match. Three damage is nothing given the format. Always remember that life is merely a resource; winning at one life is just as much a victory as winning at forty.
Of the draw spells you listed, Seer's Sundial is amazing. You should consider it over Sorcerer's Strongbox and Browbeat which I think are you're weakest two draw spells.
I've not been a big fan of Faithless Looting and Mad Prophet. The fact that they don't provide any card advantage and only card selection was a big strike against them, since I felt they were only good if I had found Squee first.
I used to play Insurrection but cut it. The plan for cards like it and Mass Mutiny is that you have to let the board get a little bit out of hand and then you can play them for huge swings and maybe kill multiple players. I found that this clashes with Jaya, because you want to use her Inferno to keep the board under control so that situations where Mass Mutiny are good seldom occur. I am speaking from my own decks view, so take this in through your own lens and think about how mutiny works in your own deck.
Viashino Heretic is in my own deck and he is a very strong card. Being able to repeatedly kill artifacts is good. Vandalblast is also a fantastic card.
Before you go and change 10 cards in your deck on the fly; I recommend you take some time to play your deck as is and just pay attention to any cards that don't live up to your expectations of them. Also, you want to consider what cards you're having trouble beating and how you want to change your deck to handle those. Maybe you do need to add more draw or ramp, but maybe you need a new answer instead that lets you handle a card you can't normally deal with.
You can always take your time and slowly try out new cards and see how you like them. I like doing that better then just slotting in several new cards. I never consider my EDH decks done, it's all about slowly sculpting them to be better and better.
Have you considered Blood Knight? It's only $0.41 and it has first strike and can carry Butcher's Cleaver well. Protection makes it hard to block too, so it can often score hits against a white player and the card does a great job of being a good defensive card in the early game to deter someone who gets out an early creature from attacking you with it. Other good first strikers are Splatter Thug and the red wearwolves, but they aren't human when they flip.
Thanks for the comments! They helped me confirm some of my suspicions. I used to play Incendiary Command and Shattered Perception to complement Moonring Mirror, but most of the time I drew them I didn't have Moonring Mirror in play and my impressions matched your statements.
The one time I got Mindmoil in play, it was incredibly useful to me. It also helps search out Moonring Mirror, which results in a huge amount of cards drawn, enabling me to quickly refill your hand. Teferi's Puzzle Box is on my wants list, but I couldn't find one for less than about $2.50, which is out of budget for my deck.
Re: Browbeat
Every time I play this card, I draw 3 cards. No one in the group I play with is willing to take one for the team and absorb the 5 damage. I don't know if this is because they're overly selfish or my deck just isn't enough of a threat to bother, but this card has been outstanding for me. (It's probably because they are more worried about the blue player who is drawing 1600 cards per turn trying to set up his combo and me drawing 3 cards will only help us shut him down.)
@Zygous
You have a good point about Barrin's Codex being underrated. Likewise, let me defend Sorcerer's Strongbox as being underrated since drawing 3 cards with Barrin's Codex is statistically similar to Sorcerer's Strongbox.
Barrin's Codex - Costs 8 mana and must be in play for 3 rounds to get 3 cards.
Sorcerer's Strongbox - On average, costs 8 mana and must be in play 3 rounds (assuming you tap it the turn it comes into play) to get 3 cards.
The difference is that Barrin's Codex has the opportunity to yield more than 3 cards if drawn early in the game and allowed to sit for longer. Sorcerer's Strongbox has the opportunity to instantly yield 3 cards late game if you're lucky on the first coin flip. Also, Sorcerer's Strongbox has a synergy with Jaya as I frequently hold back 2 mana for Jaya's incinerate (particularly when equipped with deathtouch equipment). If I don't need the incinerate, I can pump it into the strongbox. The downside is that Sorcerer's Strongbox could, in theory, take an infinite amount of mana and never yield any cards.
Based on your recommendation, I'm going to replace Mad Prophet with Seer's Sundial. As you pointed out, Mad Prophet gives no card advantage, plus he gets nuked by Jaya's inferno. I left Seer's Sundial out of my deck because it wasn't raw drawing power to fuel Jaya's discard since it forced me to drop a land to get a card. However, it has good synergy with many of my lands (particularly Ghost Town) and it's rare for me to have too much mana on the table.
I also like your point about Faithless Looting. I'll look into replacing it with either artifact or graveyard hate. I really like Viashino Heretic, but left him out due to concerns about getting nuked by Jaya's inferno. Have you had problems with Jaya killing him frequently?
The reason Jeska, Warrior Adept is ideal is not only the first strike (with Butcher's Cleaver) but also the deathtouch (with Gorgon Flail and Gorgon's Head). She's the only first-striking pinger I'm aware of.
Thank you for all the suggestions!
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
I normally don't have a problem with Jaya killing my own creatures. I realize that there are times when I just have to inferno even at the loss of my own board. The nice thing about Heretic is that you can always wait till right before it's your turn to activate him, so you can use him as a blocker if you need to. I often throw away creatures in a block to preserve my life total if I know I'm going to Inferno on my next turn cycle and reset the table.
One thing you may want to try doing is finding a played Jeska that is in a little worse condition. It'll be cheaper, but still the same card. Does that count as a way to dodge your budget restrictions?
I am really excited for the recently spoiled Act on Impulse. That cards seems amazing for red decks. I suspect that on average you'll be able to get 2 cards out of casting it. You're pretty likely to hit at least 1 land so that gives you a free drop for the turn and one castable spell. The nice thing is that in the late game you have a good chance of being able to cast all 3 cards, which is a huge value to a gassed out player.
No one I play with will let the card draw effect go on Browbeat because we never give each other anything for free. But hey, if your friends let you have it, then take it and smile.
I had the same reaction when I saw it. I really want to give it and Aggressive Mining a spin.
I had not realized that Viashino Heretic could still damage players with indestructible artifacts. That's pretty awesome!
Yes, that counts. I have Darksteel Plate, Steel Hellkite, and Blasphemous Act in my deck, each of which I acquired for less than $0.50. The restriction is primarily to prevent me from spending too much money, but also to prove that fun, fairly effective EDH decks can be built on a budget. Additionally, it's a fun challenge that forces me to use different cards than standards that get played all the time.
Looks like one I'll have to add to my wants list. Hopefully, it costs less than $0.50.
Colossus of Akros - Added to my wants list.
Fortune Thief - This one that seems a bit difficult to use. Most of the spells and effects in my deck that damage me would also kill her (Jaya's inferno, Pyrohemia, Magma Phoenix, etc.).
Elixir of Immortality - Not sure I like one-shot nature of this card. Plus, it also loses me access to my graveyard and my deck has several cards that take advantage of the graveyard. I think I'll stick with Sun Droplet and Trading Post for now.
I still haven't gotten a chance to look at the lockdown cards you mentioned.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Based on the feedback I received (Thanks Zygous and shenabagananins!), I made the following changes to my deck:
Removed
Faithless Looting - Doesn't provide card advantage.
Mad Prophet - Doesn't provide card advantage.
Smash - Viashino Heretic added below as repeatable artifact hate.
Added
Seer's Sundial - Card draw and synergy with lands (especially Ghost Town).
Tormod's Crypt - Graveyard hate.
Viashino Heretic - Artifact hate.
Questions
How imperative is haste? I'm running Swiftfoot Boots, but Anger and Lightning Greaves are outside my 50 cents per card budget. Are there any other budget cards worth considering? I have Ring of Valkas, Crimson Mage, Mark of Fury, and Strider Harness. Are any of these worth playing (in this deck or any other)?
Aside from the 8 I included in the deck (see spoiler below) I have the following:
Kher Keep, Madblind Mountain, Phyrexia's Core, Rogue's Passage
Does anyone have any good rules of thumb for an appropriate ratio of basic Mountains to non-basic colorless mana producing lands?
Are any of these 4 lands worth including?
Is Kher Keep worth including if I don't own Skullclamp?
Updated Deck
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Creatures (14)
1 Firewing Phoenix
1 Kuldotha Phoenix
1 Magma Phoenix
1 Shard Phoenix
1 Skarrgan Firebird
1 Charmbreaker Devils
1 Hoarding Dragon
1 Hound of Griselbrand
1 Kumano, Master Yamabushi
1 Rage Thrower
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Thopter Assembly
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Wojek Embermage
Equipment (6)
1 Butcher's Cleaver
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Gorgon Flail
1 Gorgon's Head
1 Magebane Armor
1 Swiftfoot Boots
Miscellaneous (6)
1 Codex Shredder
1 Distorting Lens
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Scuttlemutt
1 Sun Droplet
1 Trading Post
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Fire Diamond
1 Mind Stone
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Foriysian Totem
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Sisay's Ring
1 Ur-Golem's Eye
1 Dreamstone Hedron
1 Armillary Sphere
1 Wayfarer's Bauble
1 Grinning Ignus (Removed)
1 Burnished Hart (Added)
Card Draw & Filtering (8)
1 Browbeat
1 Crystal Ball
1 Mindmoil
1 Moonring Mirror
1 Reforge the Soul
1 Seer's Sundial
1 Sorcerer's Strongbox
1 Tower of Fortunes
Damage/Destruction Spells (6)
1 Blasphemous Act
1 Brittle Effigy (artifact)
1 Fissure
1 Grab the Reins
1 Devil's Play
1 Red Sun's Zenith
1 Reverberate
1 Ricochet Trap
1 Wild Ricochet
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Tormod's Crypt (artifact)
Enchantments (3)
1 Burning Sands
1 Pyrohemia
1 Vicious Shadows
Lands (38)
1 Buried Ruin
1 Haunted Fengraf
1 Dormant Volcano
1 Ghost Town
1 Gargoyle Castle
1 Hellion Crucible
1 Encroaching Wastes
1 Ghost Quarter
30 Mountain
Thopter Assembly, Wojek Embermage,
Grinning Ignus, Burning Sands, Tormod's Crypt, Viashino HereticPossible Additions - Cards I own.
Avarice Totem - If this deck can consistently reach 10 mana.
Burnished Hart - RampDruidic Satchel - Ramp
Walking Atlas - Ramp
Smash - If I find that Viashino Heretic is overkill in my meta.
Phyrexian Furnace - If I find that Tormod's Crypt is overkill in my meta.
Scrabbling Claws - If I find that Tormod's Crypt is overkill in my meta.
Ring of Valkas - Haste and possibility of producing inferno proof creature over time.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
To whom it may concern: I know not everyone is a fan of Treasonous Ogre for this deck but for me it has been Fun Times. That is all.
Of the nonbasic lands you listed, Kher Keep is by far the best. I play it in my own deck and I don't run it for Skullclamp. I play it for synergy with Portcullis. It is a fine card on it's own though. The Kobalds make great chump blockers and because you have a few equipments that pump power, the kobalds can get suited up and attack in a pinch. Throw Kher Keep in and see how you like the little kobalds.
I wouldn't add any of the other lands. I've tried Madblind Mountain and Nyktos, but Jaya decks tend to play so many artifacts that getting enough red permanents for them to work never seems to happen.
I really like having more haste enablers in my own Jaya deck, but I tend to play more heavier top end creatures. The big old Dragons really benefit from the haste. You're own list tends to run more small and medium creatures and really loads up on the phoenixes, so a good deal of your creatures don't need haste because they can self recur. If you're looking to add more haste for Jaya. I would probably only add 1 card and it would be Racecourse Fury. It does cost you 1 mana like some of the artifacts, but being an aura on a land means it's pretty unlikely to be killed.
Burning Sands seems like you're weakest card. It give opponents a lot of impetus to knock you off the table since they are 1 Inferno away from going back to the start of the game. It gets worse when you add Kher Keep.
Druidic Satchel is always going to gain the same amount of life during a game as Sun Droplet would. I know you have to invest mana. You have 38 lands and 14 creatures so you only have a 52/99 cards that don't give you 2 life. Satchel will give you 2 life every 2 turns without the need to take damage and it can ramp you can give blockers.
I'll 2nd Burnished Hart. That little elk has become a very popular include in monocolored EDH decks. You even play Trading Post and Buried Ruin which means looping him is a possibility. I'd cut Grinning Ignus for B-Hart.
Cinder Cloud may be a card you'd want. It is pretty much just a 2nd Fissure, but sometimes having more instant speed removal can be very desirable.
shenabagananins, what kinds of plays has the Ogre been enabling for you?
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Big, dumb, and splashy plays. He's like a surprise mana doubler in the right situations because the resources he can give can help me end or fundamentally change the game in my favor. He can provide spots of mana in a pinch, too, which is nice. Of course there are times where I don't have the cards or the life to let him loose the way I want to. That's fine, though, because then I just pitch him to Jaya to still get value out of him. I actually like the Ogre more in this deck than I would have in my older red decks I used to run. He could power out a one-turn win in Godo, yes, and help me maneuver well with smaller plays in Diaochan and Fumiko. But dead cards in those decks did nothing but stay dead and with Godo in particular I couldn't afford to have dead cards. Jaya lets me play more towards the potential of a few slots of cards I have rather than needing to tune it to the highest end.
I'll plan on slipping Kher Keep into my deck, especially if/when I remove Burning Sands. I also realized I have Forgotten Cave and Smoldering Crater, but they are in my Zo-Zu the Punisher stack right now as cycling is less important for Jaya.
Swapping Grinning Ignus for Burnished Hart also looks like a good idea. Grinning Ignus helps me get larger spells off earlier, but Burnished Hart is better for the long game.
So, you run haste more for the beaters than for Jaya herself? Good to know. I've stuck with lower mana cost creatures because not having mana doublers and other pricey rampers (Sol Ring, etc.), makes casting larger creatures unreliable (especially if I want to hang onto mana for Jaya, Kumano, etc.).
I actually picked up Mark of Fury instead of Racecourse Fury because I thought having it bounce back to my hand would be nice for Jaya's discard. However, I neglected to consider durability. I think I can obtain Fervor easily in a local trade, so if I add one more, I'll probably go with that one.
I think you missed that Sun Droplet is "each upkeep" not "your upkeep." In a 5 player game, if I inferno everyone for 6 on my turn, I'll have gained 5 hit points back by the time it is my turn again. Druidic Satchel can't keep up with that.
When I purchased cards, I went with Fissure over Aftershock (figuring Red already has enough artifact hate) and Brittle Effigy over Cinder Cloud (to combat Blightsteel Colossus, et al.). Cinder Cloud is on my possibilities list.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
(My first choice is still Devil's Play, but I like having two in my deck.)
What about using Slagwurm Armor to either inferno proof Jaya or another creature?
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
Normally I'd say Red Sun's Zenith between those two but given the CMC of a good chunk of your deck Titan's Revenge should be workable.
Slagwurm Armor is functional here but I think Ensouled Scimitar is more fun. Costs more to play but less to equip and it can turn into an awkward flying creature.
Red Sun Zenith exiles the creature you kill, which is a value not to be underestimated.
I've tried clash cards in EH before and they never work out. While you may have a few high cost cards unless you're playing against decks with very low manacurves, like monoblue counterspells, then the card is usually just a 1 shot Blaze. (Note: You still have to resolve it against mono blue counterspells.) Since we are talking about the extreme budget list, cards like Sensei's Top are not present which is the best way to set up a clash win.
I gave Treasonous Ogre a try. I had a lot of trouble using him for mana. I really just want to jam him and pay life to drop several cards, but it ends up being too big a commitment to spend that amount of life on a play that isn't threatening to win the game on it's own.
One deck has been giving me trouble as of late is Marchesa, the Black Rose. Most versions are built with a ton of recursion so I get in situations where I can kill their board, but it all comes right back. Another annoyance has been that Marchesa often sets up a combo win with Bearer of the Heavens that can completely dodge GY hate from Grafdigger's Cage or Tormod's Crypt. I'm probably going to put Kumano, Master Yamabushi back in the deck and see how he treats me this time. His exile clause is very tempting.
Budget Modern: GStompyG | R8-WhackR
My token theme wasn't bad, I'll try to eplore other different avenues the deck could benefit from.
Conspiracy
Coercive Portal - Definitely worth trying out. I don't commit to the board very heavily, and there should typically be at least one other player in a 4 man game that doesn't want the board wiped. Needing to be outvoted 3-1 makes this fairly reliable card draw.
Deal Broker - The first colorless looter, to the best of my knowledge. I prefer traditional looting to red's looting, because it's guaranteed to at least keep the quality of your hand the same. Red's looting is a little more of a gamble. While that's a flavorful fit, it doesn't necessarily translate well to actual gameplay.
Grenzo's Rebuttal - It's expensive and relies on the turn order, but it does kill a fair amount of stuff for the cost. It's obviously better if you're committing almost nothing to the board, or following up a complete wipe a couple turns later. Probably not good enough to bump anything, but it might be alright in certain lists. Don't discount the value of a 4/4 on an empty board, either.
Ignition Team - Might actually be alight. As long as it comes down against a lot of tapped lands, this offers you a large threat, a source of additional threats, and a way to nuke opposing problem lands. Seven mana is an awful lot, but it might be a decent lategame threat. Surviving Jaya's inferno is a big perk on any creature.
Scourge of the Throne - Maybe in a creature heavy deck. It survives Jaya after a couple turns if you can hit the high life total and it can rapidly bring life totals down, but it loses more of it's power if you're ahead on life. That's not impossible if you have Basilisk Collar and/or Batterskull.
Treasonous Ogre - I'd expect the life payment to be too much here. This isn't really a dedicated combo deck, so a gradual buildup of mana sources is better than spending a lot of life on a single burst.
M15
Act on Impulse - Spicy. I'm definitely trying this out, and it shouldn't take much explanation to figure out why. It's obviously a late game card, but that offers a lot of gas for just a few mana. Play this pre-land drop whenever possible.
Aggressive Mining - Maybe. It's a lot of card draw, but this is a deck that thrives on lots of mana. I don't think this is the right deck for it, but there's a really interesting red deck to be built that can play around the downside effectively. Possibly something like Slobad, where you're relying on mana rocks even more heavily than usual.
Avarice Amulet - Possibly worthwhile. It's a draw engine that only functions with Jaya out, basically. It does give you a bit of a win con too, because you can swing and shoot a blocker at the same time. Remember that sending Jaya back to the command zone is a replacement effect, and means she never died.
Chandra, Pyromaster - Reprint, but she's much more affordable now. Definitely worth grabbing if you don't have her yet.
Generator Servant - Interesting, but the single shot kind of kills it. It doesn't really accelerate into Jaya the first time, and there are better sources of haste over the long game.
Goblin Kaboomist - Kind of interesting. I would skip him entirely, but keeping red creatures from killing themselves is something of a theme here. He could be an interesting early defensive option.
Goblin Rabblemaster - The tokens are unlikely to survive, can't really be abused, and he's not gonig to swing big all that often. If you're running a more creature heavy list with Skullclamp and want something to support Goblin Assault, I could see it.
Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient - Better suited to his own deck. I know I don't run heavy enough on artifact activated abilities to include a more fragile, more limited Rings of Brighthearth.
Perilous Vault - Not bad as an additional wrath. I think I still go for Oblivion Stone first, because I actually do want a reasonable amount of things in my yard for reuse. OK as a second or third mass wipe.
Soul of New Phyrexia - Solid beater with a relevant ability. It gets very, very expensive to use that and activate Jaya in one turn, but still pretty solid.
Soul of Shandalar - Decent. I like that it's not a complete dud in the yard, and he seems like a lot of damage with heavy mana production. I think I'll be trying him out.
Act on Impulse is basically an autoinclude, and I think there are some very good arguments for a few others (Coercive Portal, Deal Broker, and Soul of Shandalar are probably my three runners up). Overall, this was a good pair of sets for mono red decks. The next exciting thing is Commander 2014 - I know a lot of people are with me in hoping for Jaya as the red walker, but I'm looking forward to seeing what they can do with a red walker being designed for EDH regardless. It's going to be very interesting to see what WotC comes up with for a mono red EDH list.
Kaboomist is an early drop that can come down and start making mines every turn. Even if he dies, the mine tokens will stay around allowing you to throw 1 or more at any menacing ground creature that comes your way. Mines can be a great onboard trick. I play paper games, so I'd likely represent the mines as a mine token with a dice on it, which is pretty easy for someone to miss and not think about when they are declaring attacks, you can even play politics with the mines and use them to save another player from an attack.
A stockpile of mines is likely to stick around for a long time too. Nobody is going to waste kills spells on your artifact tokens.
Protecting the Kaboomist is easier then it looks. Any Gauntlet will give him 3 toughness and require 2 failed flips to kill him. Popping 2 mines give him only a 25% of killing himself if pumped with +1/+1, but the chance of him dying as a 2/3 goes up to 37.5% for 3 flips, then 50% for 4 flips, then 59.38% for 5 flips; but flipping 5 coins means your killing a 9 or 10 toughness creature. For creatures at 6 toughness at below, Kaboomist has a reasonable chance at surviving if pumped by a Gauntlet.
Since the mines are artifact tokens, there is synergy with Trading Post and Goblin Welder with are staples in Weebo's and WyvernSlayer's Jaya decks.
Kaboomist could be way to enable a win with Hellkite Tyrant, although Mycosynth Lattice does a much better job of that.
I consider Kazuul a lot, but I want my defensive stuff to be noncreature or otherwise able to survive a board wipe. There's a pretty good chance he's good enough anyways.
Pauper: UR some horrible homebrew izzet deck
By the way, how do you feel about Possibility Storm as red control, not necessarily in this deck? I found it unexpectedly useful as it shuts down counterspells and makes it harder to assemble combos.
Pauper: UR some horrible homebrew izzet deck