Great, great, great deck! I don't have all the cards, but am still having a lot of fun running a deck that's about 85% of the list (and am getting the rest, slowly but surely!).
Question: Are you finding any trouble with Krenko dying like crazy to removal? Is looking into some hexproof/shroud solutions a good idea do you think?
Great, great, great deck! I don't have all the cards, but am still having a lot of fun running a deck that's about 85% of the list (and am getting the rest, slowly but surely!).
Question: Are you finding any trouble with Krenko dying like crazy to removal? Is looking into some hexproof/shroud solutions a good idea do you think?
Glad you like the list!
Honestly, no.. I don't really have problems with Krenko dieing. In almost all cases, I play him when a haste-enabler is on board, and should only need 1 activation to win, or to setup a win. If he sticks around, then it's just a bonus.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Hey, I'm glad you decided to sleeve this up, I'm looking forward to your critiques as you play it!
Those are two awesome suggestions! We all know Vial should be in, but FotH is brand new for me! I've never even seen that card before, lol.
So, what do you see initially that you'd want to cut?
Well, I won't presume to be an expert playing mono-red, but I think I'd be cutting Zealous Conscripts. I know that the Zealous Conscripts combo with Kiki-Jiki, but they also cost 5 mana, and are not Goblins, and I'd so rather pay 1 for the Aether Vial.
Well, I won't presume to be an expert playing mono-red, but I think I'd be cutting Zealous Conscripts. I know that the Zealous Conscripts combo with Kiki-Jiki, but they also cost 5 mana, and are not Goblins, and I'd so rather pay 1 for the Aether Vial.
While it does combo with Kiki Jiki, that is rarely what I've used it for. Almost 100% of the time it is used to untap Krenko and get another activation.
I'm not saying you're wrong about cutting, just clarifying what it's used for.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
While it does combo with Kiki Jiki, that is rarely what I've used it for. Almost 100% of the time it is used to untap Krenko and get another activation.
I'm not saying you're wrong about cutting, just clarifying what it's used for.
Ahhhhh...that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying (did I mention that I never play mono-red?:)). Still, I think it's a real mistake not having Aether Vial in this list. Not having it on the list is like deciding not to include Goblin Lackey, which is crazy. But, if Zealous Conscripts is one of the preferred finishers, we could cut one of the lesser goblins.
Is Mogg Raider better than Aether Vial in this deck? What about Skirk Prospector? Would you rather have a Goblin Sledder in your opening hand, or an Aether Vial? It's a pretty obvious choice in my opinion. These are all just 1/1 goons with an ability that may be useful. They do make the deck tick, and swarms of gobbos are what this deck is all about, but no single one should be taking the spot of Aether Vial, with the exception of the made men/untouchables: your "Underbosses", "Capos", and "Recruiters", and a handful of others that you find to be extremely versatile, which depends on your metagame, and personal taste/play style.
Ahhhhh...that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying (did I mention that I never play mono-red?:)). Still, I think it's a real mistake not having Aether Vial in this list. Not having it on the list is like deciding not to include Goblin Lackey, which is crazy. But, if Zealous Conscripts is one of the preferred finishers, we could cut one of the lesser goblins.
Is Mogg Raider better than Aether Vial in this deck? What about Skirk Prospector? Would you rather have a Goblin Sledder in your opening hand, or an Aether Vial? It's a pretty obvious choice in my opinion. These are all just 1/1 goons with an ability that may be useful. They do make the deck tick, and swarms of gobbos are what this deck is all about, but no single one should be taking the spot of Aether Vial, with the exception of the made men/untouchables: your "Underbosses", "Capos", and "Recruiters", and a handful of others that you find to be extremely versatile, which depends on your metagame, and personal taste/play style.
Without Skirk Prospector, you lose many of the games you win. Simple as that.
The truth is, there are some Goblins here that can be cut. Mogg Flunkies is one. Mudbrawler Cohort is another. In fact, I may have cut Mudbrawler already, lol. I'll have to look over my list when I get off work.
-1 Mogg Flunkies
+1 Aether Vial
Pretty easy swap.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Yeah, you're right that the ability to produce mana with Skirk Prospector is powerful. My argument was only that Aether Vial is just too good to omit from the deck list, in my view.
Haha, yeah it really is pretty easy. Either Flunkies or Mudbrawler (or both) shouldn't have been in here. The original list I built was taken from a 1v1 list and some odd choices were transferred over. I'll throw a Vial in for Flunkies and come correct next time.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
What charge counters would we want Aether Vial to sit on? One seems silly since we can dump those from out hand anyway. Two seems good as there are a lot of versatile goblins at that CMC. But you could also make an argument for three since that'll play out our King, Warchief, and Chieftain, and leave you with more mana to play around with, but it it's pretty exclusive to those.
If only the draw step came before upkeep this would be simple. But it seems like keeping it at 2 cmc would be the way to go unless you have a leader that's been in your hand since you're more likely to draw into a 2 cmc.
What charge counters would we want Aether Vial to sit on? One seems silly since we can dump those from out hand anyway. Two seems good as there are a lot of versatile goblins at that CMC. But you could also make an argument for three since that'll play out our King, Warchief, and Chieftain, and leave you with more mana to play around with, but it it's pretty exclusive to those.
If only the draw step came before upkeep this would be simple. But it seems like keeping it at 2 cmc would be the way to go unless you have a leader that's been in your hand since you're more likely to draw into a 2 cmc.
Completely depends on when you drop it. If you get it turn one, set it to 1 for a turn or two, then to 2, and maybe up to 3. That's probably the best possible scenario for Vial here.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
What charge counters would we want Aether Vial to sit on? One seems silly since we can dump those from out hand anyway. Two seems good as there are a lot of versatile goblins at that CMC. But you could also make an argument for three since that'll play out our King, Warchief, and Chieftain, and leave you with more mana to play around with, but it it's pretty exclusive to those.
If only the draw step came before upkeep this would be simple. But it seems like keeping it at 2 cmc would be the way to go unless you have a leader that's been in your hand since you're more likely to draw into a 2 cmc.
Setting the charge counters totally depends on what's in your hand, of course. Vial is primarily used from your opening hand to empty your hand of goblins fast, at instant speed, nearly uncounterable, at the low low cost of tapping an artifact. If you're holding a goblin lord (Warchief/King/Chieftain), you'll most likely ramp the charge counters up to 3 to get the lord out. The worst case scenario here is that you draw into 2 CMC goblins, which isn't a big deal, since they're cheap enough to cast. If you draw into a 4 CMC goblin, and you want to ramp up the charge counters later, you can. Either way, if you're emptying your opening hand with Vial, it is more than doing its job, and quickly. If you draw into Vial later in the game, and it wasn't in your opening hand, it is still really easy to cast, and will always be a threat to your opponents. You'll then probably ramp up the charge counters to 2 and wait and see what else you draw.
Setting the charge counters totally depends on what's in your hand, of course. Vial is primarily used from your opening hand to empty your hand of goblins fast, at instant speed, nearly uncounterable, at the low low cost of tapping an artifact. If you're holding a goblin lord (Warchief/King/Chieftain), you'll most likely ramp the charge counters up to 3 to get the lord out. The worst case scenario here is that you draw into 2 CMC goblins, which isn't a big deal, since they're cheap enough to cast. If you draw into a 4 CMC goblin, and you want to ramp up the charge counters later, you can. Either way, if you're emptying your opening hand with Vial, it is more than doing its job, and quickly. If you draw into Vial later in the game, and it wasn't in your opening hand, it is still really easy to cast, and will always be a threat to your opponents. You'll then probably ramp up the charge counters to 2 and wait and see what else you draw.
That's the jist of it. Let your hand and the game state dictate how you play it. Other than that, just enjoy the ride!
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I don't always use Goblin Sharpshooter in a game, but when I do it's with Furystroke Giant and a dozen Goblin Tokens.
One sided board wipes are awesome.
Haha, yeah that's one way to go. But, don't forget, Sharpshooter can win you games too. Alongside Goblin Bombardment and a horde of Gobbos, he gets extremely dangerous.
I'll be testing Krenko again tonight, and I have a few interesting ideas for new toys. I'll update everyone later tonight.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I noticed you had aether vial in the fit list and that's where I think it belongs. Its good for legacy lists because it allows you to play creatures for free but in edh it does nothing to affect the board or kill your enemies. Yes it allows you to cheat mana but you need all of your cards to do things. This is true of mono red and very true of aggro. Aether vial just doesn't talk really do anything.
I noticed you had aether vial in the fit list and that's where I think it belongs. Its good for legacy lists because it allows you to play creatures for free but in edh it does nothing to affect the board or kill your enemies. Yes it allows you to cheat mana but you need all of your cards to do things. This is true of mono red and very true of aggro. Aether vial just doesn't talk really do anything.
Well we've heard Zoidberg's point, and now we have a counterpoint... very interesting.
So, XF, in this case, you'd rather have a goblin that hits someone in the face than a artifact that puts more into play?
Zoidberg, how does Aether Vial thrive in a deck that dumps its hand this fast and rarely has anything left to use with the Vial?
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Yeah I hope my point came across lol. Its hard for me to make sure everything sounds right on my phone. Basically vial has deminishing returns. A goblin or a wheel of fortune or anything is better then card that is a bad topdeck in more then a few situations.
Yeah I hope my point came across lol. Its hard for me to make sure everything sounds right on my phone. Basically vial has deminishing returns. A goblin or a wheel of fortune or anything is better then card that is a bad topdeck in more then a few situations.
Yes, you made your point quite well. Wheel of Fate and Reforge the Soul are key centerpieces of this deck, and definitely wouldn't be cut for a Vial, but some smaller goblins were up for consideration.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Since Aether vial is the topic of choice currently I'll say that it's good if you're sticking with an all in strategy where you want to win before your opponents can say no. But after the first 3-4 turns of the game Aether Vial becomes very much a dead card.
After playing with Krenko for the past week I've adopted a strategy where after I have 3-4 non-token Gobbos out I'll stop playing goblins from my hand and start to refill my hand in order to come back from a board wipe. (I'll extend a bit more if there aren't any white players, but how often does that happen?) So in the mean time of me wanting to sit on Goblins, Aether Vial isn't doing anything. After a board wipe happens, I'll usually had a turn or two to drop down mana (Leaving me at 5-7 lands) and being able to throw down a 2cmc Goblin after a board wipe is cool and all, it's kind of lackluster. Not to mention if you draw Aether mid to late game it has to sit for a couple of turns before it can do anything and before it gets its charge counters up, your hand is likely to be already empty.
So whether or not Aether Vial is in the deck is up to the discretion of the deckbuilder. Personally I don't think cutting Aether Vial will lose much of the explosiveness of the deck, and will allow for a better mid range. Now as for some of the other cards I've been running....
Breath of Fury in this deck is awesome. It's won me two games so far. Swinging at a defenseless player with 1 Gobbo and swinging the rest in another direction is awesome. Repeat for stupid amounts of tokens and a tonne of damage. Also, it has the distinction of being fairly fog proof as a win con. With In the Web of War and especially Tears of Rage, a fog will put a huge hindrance on you. And for some reason playing this deck online I've found quite a few Phelddagrif hugs players that just love their fog effects. And even had an occasion where someone was playing the Buyback - Sacrifice a Land fog. Incredibly annoying.
Shrieking Mogg was a card that I thought, well this would easily be an instant win combined with Breath. But that scenario has yet to happen. 99 cards and no way to tutor for an Enchantment, kind of puts a damper on things. And when this guy is sitting in my hand all I'm thinking is "I could really use a Goblin in play right now, but not this one." About the only other thing I've been able to think of for using this card is to have a haste effect on board, play it to tap down everything, play and activate Krenko, then be able to free swing with goblins. But that would take quite the chunk of mana and then you'd have to have a wincon already online in order for it to do much of anything. This is definitely a card that will get cut in favor of something else.
Firefright Mage and Goblin Tunneler; The mage is a 1cmc that replaced Ragin Goblin, because a 1/1 hasty is nice and all, but in a multilayer environment the possibly evasion granted by Firefright is much more valuable. Goblin Tunnerler is Mudbrawler/Flunkies replacement in the 2cmc category, and while both of them are reliable beaters, once again I feel the evasion comes ahead. Both of these cards were added as support to the Breath of Fury game plan, and one of the games I won with breath was due to Goblin Tunneler. But these cards already have some great synergy in the deck. Goblin Vandal, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey, and Warren Instigator all benefit greatly from being able to get into the redzone unhindered. Because of this, these cards have definitely earned their spot in this deck.
Talking a bit about the cuts, Mudbrawler and Flunkies are a lot more playable in the dueling version of this deck being beefier than traditional goblins and swinging a bit harder. But there are more versatile goblins coming in at the 2cmc mark. (Tunneler and the Shrieking Mogg test)
Raging Goblin got cut for similar reasons to the previous two. He can swing into the redzone before your opponent has a turn, but after that he becomes less and less useful, and Firefright fills that 1cmc spot perfectly.
Mogg Fanatic is probably going to work its way back into the deck replacing Shrieking Mogg, but overall it's effect is less than stellar, but it gives Sharpshooer another ping, can block sac and it's a 1/1 Goblin for 1 mana. What more do you want?
Tuktuk, I wasn't ever really impressed with in any deck, especially this one. Sure he is a Goblin who is an epic chump blocker, but for 3 mana we have other cards that'll be more valuable to our gameplan. He might be back if Aether Vial doesn't make the cut but I think there are other cards that would be a better fit. (Last Chance and Final Fortune come to mind)
Zoidberg, how does Aether Vial thrive in a deck that dumps its hand this fast and rarely has anything left to use with the Vial?
I see your point, and agree that it really sucks in the mid-game when you're hoping to draw a business spell, and end up drawing Aether Vial instead. You could be right on this, and my only real experience with Aether Vial is in Legacy goblins, where it is awesome.
Having said this, my impression with this deck list, and this thread in particular, is that you want to build an all-in, go for the throat, no-holds-barred, let's kill you quicker than you can even combo-style deck. You're not interested in control cards, or a late-game strategy, right? Insurrection is an awesome red card in multiplayer, but in this deck it sucks because if it's in your opening hand, you really wish it was something else since it's a late-game card and you don't plan on the game going long enough to cast it. You want to be swarming with Goblins and win by turn five-ish, right? If that's a correct assumption, then I would think you're focused on including cards in the list that you are never disappointed in seeing in your opening seven cards. Will a turn seven Goblin Lackey win you the game if you drew him that turn? Probably not, because of the diminishing returns that have been articulated already, since you've probably already dumped your hand of goblins. A turn one Goblin Lackey is a totally different matter altogether. And no, Goblin Lackey should never be cut from your list even though he's just a 1/1 dork late in the game. He's in your list because almost all of the times you'll see him, he'll be in your opening hand, and there he's awesome.
It won't hurt my feelings or keep me up at night if you end up cutting Aether Vial for something else, since this whole playing red in EDH is new to me, and I'm sure you all have a much better feel on what should go in a red aggro list than I do :wink:. Though, at the moment I personally feel it's a mistake not to include Aether Vial in a list like this.
Awesome replies, I really like the discussion going on here.
Okay, so let's go one-by-one:
@Breath of Fury: I've actually had some pretty negative experiences with this card. So, let's say we have a ton of goblins and we make a gameplan to attack everyone and kill them all with Breath of Fury. So, I divvy out the attacks and go for it. Someone kills the goblin with BoF, our plain is ruined. You would not believe how many times this has happened to me. That's the reason Tears of Rage ended up in the deck.
@Shrieking Mogg: tapping all creatures is okay, I really wish it only tapped our opponents creatures.
@F Mage/Goblin Tunneler: I've actually tried both, but prefer Goblin Shortcutter (though Shrieking Mogg is obviously king now).
@Vial: Okay, so we don't play a late game, but we also don't have trouble laying our whole hand down... I'm really torn on this one.
@artaud: I'm glad you're having so much success with the deck, Krenko is a blast to play!
I got four more games in with Krenko last week, and even got some 1v1 action in (only because of necessity, i.e. lack of other players because I showed up so early). Chancellor of the Forge is a card that's been on the fringe, but the stupid thing keeps winning me games. Similar to Filth in my Jarad list, it's a card that many people don't see as a worthy addition, yet it too keeps winning me games. Everyone will have their own opinions on this, but for now, Chancellor of the Forge has earned its spot.
I also wanted to discuss a new RtR card...
Now, classically, token cards for Goblins have been a strict 1 mana = 1 goblin. Dragon Fodder and Krenko's Command are perfect examples of this. And although Mogg Infestation was 3CMC for only 2 goblins, it gave us an alternative casting cost that makes up for it.
So, the question becomes, at what point is it enough tokens to justify a higher cost? And is this too high of a cost to justify a spot within Krenko? I'll be pondering both of these in the next few days and try to get some preemptive testing in with the card.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I just wanted to chime in on the Aether Vial discussion. I for one am in the thinking that it has no place here in EDH. In 60 card formats it is used to cheat past counterspells and decks tend to have a much more linear faster pace to them. In this deck, most of the goblins your opponent wont care about. The ones they do care about are mainly Krenko and due to how the vial works it wont protect him.
If you want some counterspell protection then go with Cavern of Souls. If you want ways to jump stuff into play at opponents EOT then go with Vedalken Orrery or Winding Canyons. I just dont see a situation where Aether Vial is the card pick for this deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I just wanted to chime in on the Aether Vial discussion. I for one am in the thinking that it has no place here in EDH. In 60 card formats it is used to cheat past counterspells and decks tend to have a much more linear faster pace to them. In this deck, most of the goblins your opponent wont care about. The ones they do care about are mainly Krenko and due to how the vial works it wont protect him.
If you want some counterspell protection then go with Cavern of Souls. If you want ways to jump stuff into play at opponents EOT then go with Vedalken Orrery or Winding Canyons. I just dont see a situation where Aether Vial is the card pick for this deck.
Thank you for sharing your opinion on Aether Vial. I think we all kind of came to this conclusion, that it's just not good enough in a 100 card format, there are better options out their for each aspect of Vial. We already run Cavern, and I really don't think we need Canyons or Orrery, as we're already pretty fast.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
Question: Are you finding any trouble with Krenko dying like crazy to removal? Is looking into some hexproof/shroud solutions a good idea do you think?
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
Glad you like the list!
Honestly, no.. I don't really have problems with Krenko dieing. In almost all cases, I play him when a haste-enabler is on board, and should only need 1 activation to win, or to setup a win. If he sticks around, then it's just a bonus.
Well, I won't presume to be an expert playing mono-red, but I think I'd be cutting Zealous Conscripts. I know that the Zealous Conscripts combo with Kiki-Jiki, but they also cost 5 mana, and are not Goblins, and I'd so rather pay 1 for the Aether Vial.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
While it does combo with Kiki Jiki, that is rarely what I've used it for. Almost 100% of the time it is used to untap Krenko and get another activation.
I'm not saying you're wrong about cutting, just clarifying what it's used for.
Ahhhhh...that makes more sense. Thanks for clarifying (did I mention that I never play mono-red?:)). Still, I think it's a real mistake not having Aether Vial in this list. Not having it on the list is like deciding not to include Goblin Lackey, which is crazy. But, if Zealous Conscripts is one of the preferred finishers, we could cut one of the lesser goblins.
Is Mogg Raider better than Aether Vial in this deck? What about Skirk Prospector? Would you rather have a Goblin Sledder in your opening hand, or an Aether Vial? It's a pretty obvious choice in my opinion. These are all just 1/1 goons with an ability that may be useful. They do make the deck tick, and swarms of gobbos are what this deck is all about, but no single one should be taking the spot of Aether Vial, with the exception of the made men/untouchables: your "Underbosses", "Capos", and "Recruiters", and a handful of others that you find to be extremely versatile, which depends on your metagame, and personal taste/play style.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
Without Skirk Prospector, you lose many of the games you win. Simple as that.
The truth is, there are some Goblins here that can be cut. Mogg Flunkies is one. Mudbrawler Cohort is another. In fact, I may have cut Mudbrawler already, lol. I'll have to look over my list when I get off work.
-1 Mogg Flunkies
+1 Aether Vial
Pretty easy swap.
Good choice on the change
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
Haha, yeah it really is pretty easy. Either Flunkies or Mudbrawler (or both) shouldn't have been in here. The original list I built was taken from a 1v1 list and some odd choices were transferred over. I'll throw a Vial in for Flunkies and come correct next time.
If only the draw step came before upkeep this would be simple. But it seems like keeping it at 2 cmc would be the way to go unless you have a leader that's been in your hand since you're more likely to draw into a 2 cmc.
Completely depends on when you drop it. If you get it turn one, set it to 1 for a turn or two, then to 2, and maybe up to 3. That's probably the best possible scenario for Vial here.
Setting the charge counters totally depends on what's in your hand, of course. Vial is primarily used from your opening hand to empty your hand of goblins fast, at instant speed, nearly uncounterable, at the low low cost of tapping an artifact. If you're holding a goblin lord (Warchief/King/Chieftain), you'll most likely ramp the charge counters up to 3 to get the lord out. The worst case scenario here is that you draw into 2 CMC goblins, which isn't a big deal, since they're cheap enough to cast. If you draw into a 4 CMC goblin, and you want to ramp up the charge counters later, you can. Either way, if you're emptying your opening hand with Vial, it is more than doing its job, and quickly. If you draw into Vial later in the game, and it wasn't in your opening hand, it is still really easy to cast, and will always be a threat to your opponents. You'll then probably ramp up the charge counters to 2 and wait and see what else you draw.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
UR Nin, the Pain Artist
WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
That's the jist of it. Let your hand and the game state dictate how you play it. Other than that, just enjoy the ride!
One sided board wipes are awesome.
Haha, yeah that's one way to go. But, don't forget, Sharpshooter can win you games too. Alongside Goblin Bombardment and a horde of Gobbos, he gets extremely dangerous.
I'll be testing Krenko again tonight, and I have a few interesting ideas for new toys. I'll update everyone later tonight.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Well we've heard Zoidberg's point, and now we have a counterpoint... very interesting.
So, XF, in this case, you'd rather have a goblin that hits someone in the face than a artifact that puts more into play?
Zoidberg, how does Aether Vial thrive in a deck that dumps its hand this fast and rarely has anything left to use with the Vial?
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
Yes, you made your point quite well. Wheel of Fate and Reforge the Soul are key centerpieces of this deck, and definitely wouldn't be cut for a Vial, but some smaller goblins were up for consideration.
- Mudbrawler Cohort
- Mogg Flunkies
- Mogg Fanatic
- Tuktuk
- Ragin Goblin
+ Firefright Mage
+ Shrieking Mogg
+ Aether Vial
+ Breath of Fury
+ Goblin Tunneler
Since Aether vial is the topic of choice currently I'll say that it's good if you're sticking with an all in strategy where you want to win before your opponents can say no. But after the first 3-4 turns of the game Aether Vial becomes very much a dead card.
After playing with Krenko for the past week I've adopted a strategy where after I have 3-4 non-token Gobbos out I'll stop playing goblins from my hand and start to refill my hand in order to come back from a board wipe. (I'll extend a bit more if there aren't any white players, but how often does that happen?) So in the mean time of me wanting to sit on Goblins, Aether Vial isn't doing anything. After a board wipe happens, I'll usually had a turn or two to drop down mana (Leaving me at 5-7 lands) and being able to throw down a 2cmc Goblin after a board wipe is cool and all, it's kind of lackluster. Not to mention if you draw Aether mid to late game it has to sit for a couple of turns before it can do anything and before it gets its charge counters up, your hand is likely to be already empty.
So whether or not Aether Vial is in the deck is up to the discretion of the deckbuilder. Personally I don't think cutting Aether Vial will lose much of the explosiveness of the deck, and will allow for a better mid range. Now as for some of the other cards I've been running....
Breath of Fury in this deck is awesome. It's won me two games so far. Swinging at a defenseless player with 1 Gobbo and swinging the rest in another direction is awesome. Repeat for stupid amounts of tokens and a tonne of damage. Also, it has the distinction of being fairly fog proof as a win con. With In the Web of War and especially Tears of Rage, a fog will put a huge hindrance on you. And for some reason playing this deck online I've found quite a few Phelddagrif hugs players that just love their fog effects. And even had an occasion where someone was playing the Buyback - Sacrifice a Land fog. Incredibly annoying.
Shrieking Mogg was a card that I thought, well this would easily be an instant win combined with Breath. But that scenario has yet to happen. 99 cards and no way to tutor for an Enchantment, kind of puts a damper on things. And when this guy is sitting in my hand all I'm thinking is "I could really use a Goblin in play right now, but not this one." About the only other thing I've been able to think of for using this card is to have a haste effect on board, play it to tap down everything, play and activate Krenko, then be able to free swing with goblins. But that would take quite the chunk of mana and then you'd have to have a wincon already online in order for it to do much of anything. This is definitely a card that will get cut in favor of something else.
Firefright Mage and Goblin Tunneler; The mage is a 1cmc that replaced Ragin Goblin, because a 1/1 hasty is nice and all, but in a multilayer environment the possibly evasion granted by Firefright is much more valuable. Goblin Tunnerler is Mudbrawler/Flunkies replacement in the 2cmc category, and while both of them are reliable beaters, once again I feel the evasion comes ahead. Both of these cards were added as support to the Breath of Fury game plan, and one of the games I won with breath was due to Goblin Tunneler. But these cards already have some great synergy in the deck. Goblin Vandal, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Lackey, and Warren Instigator all benefit greatly from being able to get into the redzone unhindered. Because of this, these cards have definitely earned their spot in this deck.
Talking a bit about the cuts, Mudbrawler and Flunkies are a lot more playable in the dueling version of this deck being beefier than traditional goblins and swinging a bit harder. But there are more versatile goblins coming in at the 2cmc mark. (Tunneler and the Shrieking Mogg test)
Raging Goblin got cut for similar reasons to the previous two. He can swing into the redzone before your opponent has a turn, but after that he becomes less and less useful, and Firefright fills that 1cmc spot perfectly.
Mogg Fanatic is probably going to work its way back into the deck replacing Shrieking Mogg, but overall it's effect is less than stellar, but it gives Sharpshooer another ping, can block sac and it's a 1/1 Goblin for 1 mana. What more do you want?
Tuktuk, I wasn't ever really impressed with in any deck, especially this one. Sure he is a Goblin who is an epic chump blocker, but for 3 mana we have other cards that'll be more valuable to our gameplan. He might be back if Aether Vial doesn't make the cut but I think there are other cards that would be a better fit. (Last Chance and Final Fortune come to mind)
I see your point, and agree that it really sucks in the mid-game when you're hoping to draw a business spell, and end up drawing Aether Vial instead. You could be right on this, and my only real experience with Aether Vial is in Legacy goblins, where it is awesome.
Having said this, my impression with this deck list, and this thread in particular, is that you want to build an all-in, go for the throat, no-holds-barred, let's kill you quicker than you can even combo-style deck. You're not interested in control cards, or a late-game strategy, right? Insurrection is an awesome red card in multiplayer, but in this deck it sucks because if it's in your opening hand, you really wish it was something else since it's a late-game card and you don't plan on the game going long enough to cast it. You want to be swarming with Goblins and win by turn five-ish, right? If that's a correct assumption, then I would think you're focused on including cards in the list that you are never disappointed in seeing in your opening seven cards. Will a turn seven Goblin Lackey win you the game if you drew him that turn? Probably not, because of the diminishing returns that have been articulated already, since you've probably already dumped your hand of goblins. A turn one Goblin Lackey is a totally different matter altogether. And no, Goblin Lackey should never be cut from your list even though he's just a 1/1 dork late in the game. He's in your list because almost all of the times you'll see him, he'll be in your opening hand, and there he's awesome.
It won't hurt my feelings or keep me up at night if you end up cutting Aether Vial for something else, since this whole playing red in EDH is new to me, and I'm sure you all have a much better feel on what should go in a red aggro list than I do :wink:. Though, at the moment I personally feel it's a mistake not to include Aether Vial in a list like this.
Also, Breath of Fury does seem awesome.
This "love" intrigues me. Teach me to fake it.
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WUB Zur the Enchanter (Retired)
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae (Pseudo-Retired)
Okay, so let's go one-by-one:
@Breath of Fury: I've actually had some pretty negative experiences with this card. So, let's say we have a ton of goblins and we make a gameplan to attack everyone and kill them all with Breath of Fury. So, I divvy out the attacks and go for it. Someone kills the goblin with BoF, our plain is ruined. You would not believe how many times this has happened to me. That's the reason Tears of Rage ended up in the deck.
@Shrieking Mogg: tapping all creatures is okay, I really wish it only tapped our opponents creatures.
@F Mage/Goblin Tunneler: I've actually tried both, but prefer Goblin Shortcutter (though Shrieking Mogg is obviously king now).
@Vial: Okay, so we don't play a late game, but we also don't have trouble laying our whole hand down... I'm really torn on this one.
@artaud: I'm glad you're having so much success with the deck, Krenko is a blast to play!
I also wanted to discuss a new RtR card...
Now, classically, token cards for Goblins have been a strict 1 mana = 1 goblin. Dragon Fodder and Krenko's Command are perfect examples of this. And although Mogg Infestation was 3CMC for only 2 goblins, it gave us an alternative casting cost that makes up for it.
So, the question becomes, at what point is it enough tokens to justify a higher cost? And is this too high of a cost to justify a spot within Krenko? I'll be pondering both of these in the next few days and try to get some preemptive testing in with the card.
If you want some counterspell protection then go with Cavern of Souls. If you want ways to jump stuff into play at opponents EOT then go with Vedalken Orrery or Winding Canyons. I just dont see a situation where Aether Vial is the card pick for this deck.
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[Modern] Allies
Thank you for sharing your opinion on Aether Vial. I think we all kind of came to this conclusion, that it's just not good enough in a 100 card format, there are better options out their for each aspect of Vial. We already run Cavern, and I really don't think we need Canyons or Orrery, as we're already pretty fast.
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