That is also sort of how I want to go but I havent seen one yet.
Also as a side not has anyone ran or considered running Cauldron of Souls? I think it is really cool with Ghave as you can persist him back with 4 +1/+1 counters and continue swarming from there. He also works quite well with several of the Ghave asisstants like Juniper Order Ranger who will eat up their -/- counter on their own.
I originally tried to build this deck with a persist subtheme using the cauldron and Dross Scorpion as enablers, but after playing with it for a while, I decided that it was a little too hit and miss due to there only really being 3ish good persisters. I think that it might warrant revisiting at a later time, especially if we ever see persist again, but I moved towards a combo build after playing with it for a while.
Does anybody know where I can find a more swarm/aggro list? Almost every list I've seen on here wants to combo out which is fine, it's just not what I'm interested in doing.
My list originally had more of that intention, but the problem is that once you actually play the deck (or at least once I played the deck), you just start running into combos everywhere you go, and end up going "Wait, why am I bothering with this other stuff again?" The only way to avoid this is just not to run stuff like Earthcraft and Sigil Captain, which seems seriously suboptimal.
My list originally had more of that intention, but the problem is that once you actually play the deck (or at least once I played the deck), you just start running into combos everywhere you go, and end up going "Wait, why am I bothering with this other stuff again?" The only way to avoid this is just not to run stuff like Earthcraft and Sigil Captain, which seems seriously suboptimal.
Well put, your response made my request a lot easier to explain. I understand that for the most part, our little fungus king Ghave is a combo-oriented general. Heck, just having earthcraft out there with him is tempting me to produce infinite mana and an army of saprolings.
What I was wondering was if there were any decklists oriented towards aggro/swarm, while still possessing combo elements as a backup plan of sorts.
For me, the EDH experience is all about unpredictability and fun, not "idyllic tutor for earthcraft, enlightened tutor for doubling season, play Ghave I win" kind of games. I'm ok with having combos in my edh deck, I would rather that not be the main win con of my deck though.
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That is also sort of how I want to go but I havent seen one yet.
Also as a side not has anyone ran or considered running Cauldron of Souls? I think it is really cool with Ghave as you can persist him back with 4 +1/+1 counters and continue swarming from there. He also works quite well with several of the Ghave asisstants like Juniper Order Ranger who will eat up their -/- counter on their own.
I'm running Cauldron of Souls. It's not my first pick for Ghave protection, but until I get a Dauntless Escort, it'll do. As for an aggro list, it should be pretty easy to modify any of our combo lists, just take out some tutors or combo redundancies and replace them with mass pump and other aggro-oriented cards.
My list originally had more of that intention, but the problem is that once you actually play the deck (or at least once I played the deck), you just start running into combos everywhere you go, and end up going "Wait, why am I bothering with this other stuff again?" The only way to avoid this is just not to run stuff like Earthcraft and Sigil Captain, which seems seriously suboptimal.
This exactly. If you've got a good aggro Ghave list, you'll likely end up with combo potential whether you like it or not.
For me, the EDH experience is all about unpredictability and fun, not "idyllic tutor for earthcraft, enlightened tutor for doubling season, play Ghave I win" kind of games. I'm ok with having combos in my edh deck, I would rather that not be the main win con of my deck though.
Have you tried the combo version yet? I generally am not a fan of comboing out either, but I've found that this deck can play a remarkably diverse game, despite the fact that it seems so focused on reaching infinity. If you've got the cards, I'd recommend you try it out, unless you're absolutely hellbent on an aggro/swarm approach.
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EDH
:symu:Sun Quan, Lord of Wu:symu:
:symbg::symwb::symwg:Ghave, Guru of Spores:symwg::symwb::symbg:
:symur::symwr::symwu:Zedruu The Greathearted:symwu::symwr::symur: Casual
:symbw:Token Punisher:symbw:
:symb:Enter Karn's Dungeon:symb:
:symbw:Cleric Cult:symbw:
Something I've been considering for a while (and it would work quite well in a list like Ghave) is to put the combo pieces in, but no tutors. Earthcraft is still good by itself, Doubling Season is still good by itself, and in the 1/10 games you draw them both, BAM!
I had originally run Cauldron of Souls, but I cut it for Nim Deathmantle, but I am back to a question... since Cauldron of Souls gives persist the whole turn, and Ghave comes in with tokens, would it not go infinite with Earthcraft ? Or does persist only work once?
If so, I might have to add Cauldron back in, my previous reason for cutting it was I could do Nim Deathmantle all day long and Cauldron you can only tap it once, but if the state of persist stays the whole turn no matter how many times you bring it back, well that's a whole different story.
If so it works like this:
Tap Cauldron.
Tap 5 lands to make 5 dudes(kills Ghave and persist back), use them to untap lands with earthcraft
Tap 4 more lands to make 4 more dudes (killing Ghave and persist him back), use them to untap again
Rinse, Repeat....
I'm running Cauldron of Souls. It's not my first pick for Ghave protection
Ghave does not need protection, he needs combo's, if this works, It will be my first pick for combo, as this one is a lot less work, and you only need 5 lands, how silly is that?
Really.... did you just post a rules question in a mod's decklist lol.
Anyways I don't think it remembers that it had persist as it returns as a separate object. If it had read instead until end of turn, creatures you control have persist, then it would work but it doesn't work that way.
EDIT: on a side note... does anyone else run Archon of Justice in their list? I have found it quite powerful with Ghave due to the fact that we can sacrifice him for a counter. I have looped him with Nim Deathmantle and it is really solid as well.
Anyways I don't think it remembers that it had persist as it returns as a separate object.
This exactly, unfortunately.
If it had read instead until end of turn, creatures you control have persist, then it would work but it doesn't work that way.
Nope, still wouldn't work. Spells and abilities that create continuous effects that modify the characteristics of objects lock in the set of objects they apply to when they resolve. Since the returned Ghave is a new object, it still won't have persist. You'd need a static ability.
It's cool. I don't mind minor diversions into rules discussion within threads, as long as they don't stay there too long. It's mostly whole threads for rules questions that get my goat, as they so clearly belong elsewhere.
EDIT: on a side note... does anyone else run Archon of Justice in their list? I have found it quite powerful with Ghave due to the fact that we can sacrifice him for a counter. I have looped him with Nim Deathmantle and it is really solid as well.
Anyways I got skipped over in my edit. What are the thoughts on Archon of Justice? Is it too expensive to utilize? I like how we can sit behind it as a defensive tool.
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Well, with that interaction discovered, when they print a planeswalker (or dare I say sorcery\instant) that says: You get an emblem with "Creatures you control have persist," or an enchantment, Ghave will be one happy camper.
Guys like Archon of Justice are good since we can use them as we please, but in my case I feel that he's a little on the expensive side. He's a 4/4 body and hits permanents though so maybe the cost is fair. Maybe I'll try him out. What to take out though!?
Well, it looks like we have two more potential combo piece options in Falkenrath Noble and Parallel Lives, though neither are anything groundbreaking.
Falkenrath noble 3B
Creature - Vampire
Flying
Whenever Falkenrath Noble or another creature dies, target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
2/2
Parallel Lives 3G
Enchantment
If an effect would put one or more tokens onto the battlefield under your control, it puts twice that many tokens onto the battlefield instead.
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:symu:Sun Quan, Lord of Wu:symu:
:symbg::symwb::symwg:Ghave, Guru of Spores:symwg::symwb::symbg:
:symur::symwr::symwu:Zedruu The Greathearted:symwu::symwr::symur: Casual
:symbw:Token Punisher:symbw:
:symb:Enter Karn's Dungeon:symb:
:symbw:Cleric Cult:symbw:
Both cards seem good enough to use. It's kind of surprising that something like Noble has never seen print until now, but it's a solid wincon. Parallel Lives is just more combo, and that's never bad.
Unfortunately the enchantment only doubles tokens, when doubling counters is also required for many of our unlimited combos. I'd definitely get one for the token swarm build, obviously.
I like the Noble, too! I wonder if he's actually better than Triskelion since he costs a bit less (more probability of quicker\same-turn wins). o.0
Unfortunately the enchantment only doubles tokens, when doubling counters is also required for many of our unlimited combos. I'd definitely get one for the token swarm build, obviously.
It still works plenty well enough with Earthcraft or Altar. Earthcraft gives you infinite tapped tokens (pay 1, make two guys, tap them for 2, use one of the mana to sac one for a counter, repeat), and Altar gives infinite ETB/LTB triggers, or goes properly infinite with a source of counters.
It still works plenty well enough with Earthcraft or Altar. Earthcraft gives you infinite tapped tokens (pay 1, make two guys, tap them for 2, use one of the mana to sac one for a counter, repeat), and Altar gives infinite ETB/LTB triggers, or goes properly infinite with a source of counters.
True. It is another card that combos several ways. Back to the redundancy thing. I guess I'll be getting one after all. Perhaps Akroma's Memorial will bite the dust for this. It hasn't been impressing me of late.
Recently I built a token swarm Ghave deck. The first game I ever played with it, it went infinite on life, tokens and mana on something like turn six (monogreen suspended hypergenesis on turn 3 and I had ashnods alter and sigal captain in hand). I have since decided to make it dedicated combo for the lulz.
To contribute: Vigor + Pestilence (or anything like it) + phyrexian altar = 1: put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control except for one of them and deal 1 damage to Vigor and each other creature and each player. Trigger any ETB, dies, or morbid triggers.
I didn't see anyone talk about these card except for Vigor, and unless I'm mistaken, it goes infinite with the addition of ashnods alter. It's made me think about putting in Kamahl, fist of Krosa to kill all opposing land as grave pact kills all their creatures.
Because my group isn't very hardcore, I'm keeping really light on tutors, and this should make the deck more fun and random by combo-ing off differently every time. I'm also running cauldron of souls as wrath protection, and token production, as that was asked a couple posts up.
He's cheap, synergistic with Ghave, and makes 5/5 fliers. Seems to me like it would depend on how quickly you're planning on comboing off. If you're being super competitive, turn 2 is probably ramping. Honestly, that's what I'd rather do turn 2 than most options though. Later game, he seems insignificant. This may just be me though.
I don't think he has to worry about combo-ing off. I run a Ghave deck, which while not exactly like this, as some similar elements. It combos without difficulty.
The only real difference is that I run Martyr's Bond, Butcher of Malakir, and Grave Pact in there. Those cards double Ghave's value, because not only do I get to add counters when I sac creatures, but everyone else at the table is sac'ing creatures right along with me. So long 1/1's for me, so long something good for you.
I have to admit... Bitter Ordeal is straight brilliant in your deck. There are a few other combos in there too, but that one really floored me. In EDH the ability to rob them of an average of 3-5 of their best cards, their combo wins... thats unreal. That cripples a Sharuum deck, an Arcum Deck... any combo deck when you think about it.
I do run some recursion too, but its marginal really.
Also, if you're going to run Primeval Titan, run Bojuka Bog and bounce lands. It dominates graveyard based decks.
Tiger
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Yo Dawg, I heard you like Flashack, so we put Flashback on a Snapcaster so you can Flashback while you Snapcast...!
To me, it is like hunting with a bow and arrow, or hunting with a bazooka. One takes more skill, precision and understanding, the other is a bazooka.
Currently playing: EDH
GWBGhave, Guru of BeatdownsGWB BWRKaalia of the FacesmashBWR
Also, if you're going to run Primeval Titan, run Bojuka Bog and bounce lands. It dominates graveyard based decks.
Tiger
While that's a cute trick, all this deck cares about is getting combo as quickly as possible. It doesn't care what the rest of the board is doing because it will win regardless. This deck is also about interchangeable parts and redundancy, and outside of this neat trick, bouncelands don't do anything.
For the token swarm version, however, it's golden.
Bojuka Bog might have a place, but my meta isn't really super-heavy on graveyard shenanigans. YMMV.
Anyway, this list is overdue for an Innistrad update. I think Twilight Drover is about ready to get cut, because even Unruly Mob seems better than it. Parallel Lives is the other obvious inclusion. What's the cut here? Eldrazi Monument? I don't know, it's getting really hard to cut things.
I originally tried to build this deck with a persist subtheme using the cauldron and Dross Scorpion as enablers, but after playing with it for a while, I decided that it was a little too hit and miss due to there only really being 3ish good persisters. I think that it might warrant revisiting at a later time, especially if we ever see persist again, but I moved towards a combo build after playing with it for a while.
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My list originally had more of that intention, but the problem is that once you actually play the deck (or at least once I played the deck), you just start running into combos everywhere you go, and end up going "Wait, why am I bothering with this other stuff again?" The only way to avoid this is just not to run stuff like Earthcraft and Sigil Captain, which seems seriously suboptimal.
Well put, your response made my request a lot easier to explain. I understand that for the most part, our little fungus king Ghave is a combo-oriented general. Heck, just having earthcraft out there with him is tempting me to produce infinite mana and an army of saprolings.
What I was wondering was if there were any decklists oriented towards aggro/swarm, while still possessing combo elements as a backup plan of sorts.
For me, the EDH experience is all about unpredictability and fun, not "idyllic tutor for earthcraft, enlightened tutor for doubling season, play Ghave I win" kind of games. I'm ok with having combos in my edh deck, I would rather that not be the main win con of my deck though.
I'm running Cauldron of Souls. It's not my first pick for Ghave protection, but until I get a Dauntless Escort, it'll do. As for an aggro list, it should be pretty easy to modify any of our combo lists, just take out some tutors or combo redundancies and replace them with mass pump and other aggro-oriented cards.
This exactly. If you've got a good aggro Ghave list, you'll likely end up with combo potential whether you like it or not.
Have you tried the combo version yet? I generally am not a fan of comboing out either, but I've found that this deck can play a remarkably diverse game, despite the fact that it seems so focused on reaching infinity. If you've got the cards, I'd recommend you try it out, unless you're absolutely hellbent on an aggro/swarm approach.
EDH
:symu:Sun Quan, Lord of Wu:symu:
:symbg::symwb::symwg:Ghave, Guru of Spores:symwg::symwb::symbg:
:symur::symwr::symwu:Zedruu The Greathearted:symwu::symwr::symur:
Casual
:symbw:Token Punisher:symbw:
:symb:Enter Karn's Dungeon:symb:
:symbw:Cleric Cult:symbw:
If so, I might have to add Cauldron back in, my previous reason for cutting it was I could do Nim Deathmantle all day long and Cauldron you can only tap it once, but if the state of persist stays the whole turn no matter how many times you bring it back, well that's a whole different story.
If so it works like this:
Tap Cauldron.
Tap 5 lands to make 5 dudes(kills Ghave and persist back), use them to untap lands with earthcraft
Tap 4 more lands to make 4 more dudes (killing Ghave and persist him back), use them to untap again
Rinse, Repeat....
Add Bitter Ordeal/Blasting Station/Triskellion for kill, done.
If this works, I may just replace Nim for Cauldron.
Does it work, or does the persist go away after its used?
...not to mention Hornet Queen/Avenger of Zendicar + Ghave + Cauldron = lots o' dudes even without infinite.
Ghave does not need protection, he needs combo's, if this works, It will be my first pick for combo, as this one is a lot less work, and you only need 5 lands, how silly is that?
Edit: okay I just thought of another silly one, Ghave + Cauldron of Souls + Blasting Station
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Anyways I don't think it remembers that it had persist as it returns as a separate object. If it had read instead until end of turn, creatures you control have persist, then it would work but it doesn't work that way.
EDIT: on a side note... does anyone else run Archon of Justice in their list? I have found it quite powerful with Ghave due to the fact that we can sacrifice him for a counter. I have looped him with Nim Deathmantle and it is really solid as well.
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[Modern] Allies
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[Modern] Allies
Sorry Viper I got excited!!! Now I am sad =(
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
It's cool. I don't mind minor diversions into rules discussion within threads, as long as they don't stay there too long. It's mostly whole threads for rules questions that get my goat, as they so clearly belong elsewhere.
Anyways I got skipped over in my edit. What are the thoughts on Archon of Justice? Is it too expensive to utilize? I like how we can sit behind it as a defensive tool.
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[Modern] Allies
Good card, but its a heartache every time I take a good card out to put a good card in at this point.
also he makes Puppeteer Clique a sad panda, if I had the space I would probably go Angel of Despair before Archon of Justice, but I have the space for neither, guess it depends on your meta also.
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Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Guys like Archon of Justice are good since we can use them as we please, but in my case I feel that he's a little on the expensive side. He's a 4/4 body and hits permanents though so maybe the cost is fair. Maybe I'll try him out. What to take out though!?
Falkenrath noble 3B
Creature - Vampire
Flying
Whenever Falkenrath Noble or another creature dies, target player loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
2/2
Parallel Lives 3G
Enchantment
If an effect would put one or more tokens onto the battlefield under your control, it puts twice that many tokens onto the battlefield instead.
EDH
:symu:Sun Quan, Lord of Wu:symu:
:symbg::symwb::symwg:Ghave, Guru of Spores:symwg::symwb::symbg:
:symur::symwr::symwu:Zedruu The Greathearted:symwu::symwr::symur:
Casual
:symbw:Token Punisher:symbw:
:symb:Enter Karn's Dungeon:symb:
:symbw:Cleric Cult:symbw:
I like the Noble, too! I wonder if he's actually better than Triskelion since he costs a bit less (more probability of quicker\same-turn wins). o.0
It still works plenty well enough with Earthcraft or Altar. Earthcraft gives you infinite tapped tokens (pay 1, make two guys, tap them for 2, use one of the mana to sac one for a counter, repeat), and Altar gives infinite ETB/LTB triggers, or goes properly infinite with a source of counters.
True. It is another card that combos several ways. Back to the redundancy thing. I guess I'll be getting one after all. Perhaps Akroma's Memorial will bite the dust for this. It hasn't been impressing me of late.
To contribute: Vigor + Pestilence (or anything like it) + phyrexian altar = 1: put a +1/+1 counter on each creature you control except for one of them and deal 1 damage to Vigor and each other creature and each player. Trigger any ETB, dies, or morbid triggers.
I didn't see anyone talk about these card except for Vigor, and unless I'm mistaken, it goes infinite with the addition of ashnods alter. It's made me think about putting in Kamahl, fist of Krosa to kill all opposing land as grave pact kills all their creatures.
Because my group isn't very hardcore, I'm keeping really light on tutors, and this should make the deck more fun and random by combo-ing off differently every time. I'm also running cauldron of souls as wrath protection, and token production, as that was asked a couple posts up.
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
Kemba | Linvala | Talrand | Geth | Krenko | Zada | Patron of the Orochi | Medomai | Athreos | Gisela | Trostani | Nin | Silumgar | Kaervek | Jarad | Xenagos | Sydri | Narset | Roon | Zurgo | Ghave | Marath | Uril | Tasigur | Animar | Riku | Riku | Sek'Kuar | Cromat
The only real difference is that I run Martyr's Bond, Butcher of Malakir, and Grave Pact in there. Those cards double Ghave's value, because not only do I get to add counters when I sac creatures, but everyone else at the table is sac'ing creatures right along with me. So long 1/1's for me, so long something good for you.
I have to admit... Bitter Ordeal is straight brilliant in your deck. There are a few other combos in there too, but that one really floored me. In EDH the ability to rob them of an average of 3-5 of their best cards, their combo wins... thats unreal. That cripples a Sharuum deck, an Arcum Deck... any combo deck when you think about it.
I do run some recursion too, but its marginal really.
Also, if you're going to run Primeval Titan, run Bojuka Bog and bounce lands. It dominates graveyard based decks.
Tiger
Currently playing: EDH
GWBGhave, Guru of BeatdownsGWB
BWRKaalia of the FacesmashBWR
While that's a cute trick, all this deck cares about is getting combo as quickly as possible. It doesn't care what the rest of the board is doing because it will win regardless. This deck is also about interchangeable parts and redundancy, and outside of this neat trick, bouncelands don't do anything.
For the token swarm version, however, it's golden.
Anyway, this list is overdue for an Innistrad update. I think Twilight Drover is about ready to get cut, because even Unruly Mob seems better than it. Parallel Lives is the other obvious inclusion. What's the cut here? Eldrazi Monument? I don't know, it's getting really hard to cut things.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB