The loss of earthcraft and the altar, while it would slow the deck down, there are just so many combos you will still probably find something that can go infinite with all of the interactions in this deck.
There are several ways and that's one of the easier. About the easiest is if you can get both in play then just toggle between the two. The one I use the most is a persister, juniper order ranger, and a sac outlet
I would like to squeeze in Blade of the Bloodchief, Blasting Station, and Swiftfoot Boots, but am not sure what to switch out (maybe black and white Praetors and Kamahl). The deck has been performing exceptionally as is, but I feel like these cards are too good to pass up. I'm also thinking of getting a Garruk, Primal Hunter. You get free guys, he can do some serious card draw, and the ultimate isn't too bad either.
As for the Bitter Ordeal question earlier: it stays for sure. I've used it effectively in multiple games now. I never used it to win, but I always had it when I had plenty of mana to use Ghave a bunch of times, and then seriously weaken everybody's decks. It's never been a dead card. It wins games even without being unlimited.
I would agree that the Praetors and Kamahl seem the most lack luster and maybe sadrobot, but that could go either way. Also you could replace Akroma's Memorial with blasting station, the seem to fill the same role one just costs 4 less.
I guess while we are at it I'll add mine to the mix
I would agree that the Praetors and Kamahl seem the most lack luster and maybe sadrobot, but that could go either way. Also you could replace Akroma's Memorial with blasting station, the seem to fill the same role one just costs 4 less.
Yeah I just had Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa combo in there for the lulz. I've never actually done it, so they're on the chopping block. Sheoldred, Whispering One also hasn't done much other than be intimidating. Replacing the Memorial with Blasting Station, eh? Definitely makes sense--but I lurv the statue! Letting it go would suck. :'(
Sadrobot stays, my friend. He's part of my Reveillark combo package. Getting all basics in play and drawing unlimited cards is pretty good.
I think we've gotten this baby down to the essentials, though! Or we're really close. Soon all will bow down to Ghave and his army of dice!
Yeah I just had Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa combo in there for the lulz. I've never actually done it, so they're on the chopping block. Sheoldred, Whispering One also hasn't done much other than be intimidating. Replacing the Memorial with Blasting Station, eh? Definitely makes sense--but I lurv the statue! Letting it go would suck. :'(
Sadrobot stays, my friend. He's part of my Reveillark combo package. Getting all basics in play and drawing unlimited cards is pretty good.
I think we've gotten this baby down to the essentials, though! Or we're really close. Soon all will bow down to Ghave and his army of dice!
Fine keep your statue I guess thats a good use for the robot, it's amazing the things I don't think about. I don't know I built another version that had no back up plan where it was completely focused on comboing, but I think we a not far from the most optimized this deck can be.
I was thinking of putting Garruk, Primal Hunter in at first for the combo with Doubling Season, but usually I combo out before I have more than 6 or 7 land, so I am thinking as powerful as it is, it may not be needed even though you can instantly go ultimate with Doubling Season. Maybe if I get into a game I don't end on turn 7, I might add him, who knows.
Viper said it earlier.. (paraphrasing heavily) why bother building up when you can just win the game?
Viper said it earlier.. (paraphrasing heavily) why bother building up when you can just win the game?
.
True. My answer is this: there are games where your combo(s) get nuked. What then? You need a handful of things for the long haul. Garruk 2.0 might be a good guy to fill that role. I already have 'Lark combo and general "goodstuff," but one or two more cards for a long-haul game might be worth it. The card draw can be especially good I think. An explosive leap back into the game.
True. My answer is this: there are games where your combo(s) get nuked. What then? You need a handful of things for the long haul. Garruk 2.0 might be a good guy to fill that role. I already have 'Lark combo and general "goodstuff," but one or two more cards for a long-haul game might be worth it. The card draw can be especially good I think. An explosive leap back into the game.
I have had games where my combos have been disrupted 3+ times and I still have come back to win because of the redundancy or the recursion abilities of the deck, so in my case I have found plan B=plan A again....and again.....and again if need be. about the only thing that has ever really rained on my parade was a return to dust.
I have had games where my combos have been disrupted 3+ times and I still have come back to win because of the redundancy or the recursion abilities of the deck, so in my case I have found plan B=plan A again....and again.....and again if need be. about the only thing that has ever really rained on my parade was a return to dust.
Hey Viper got that new list yet?
Yeah, I am seeing the same thing, if one combo gets blasted there is always 6-7 more in the deck, not to mention Regrowth/Eternal Witness.
Hey guys, I actually use Vish-Kal in my build. He's an -incredible- sac outlet for things like Clique and Primus, since it pumps him massively while killing them. Also, it works very well with creakwood liege and really anything that puts +1/+1 counters on your creatures. You can turn a 3/3 into +4/+4. He also has evasion. His price is high, but thats not too bad with ashnods or earthcraft. Just my .02
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Decks:
Ghave, the Guru of Spores
Mayael the Anima
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
I hope you don't mind me arguing Vish-Kal's case, I feel like he's a great choice but I'd love to see reasons why he might not be. Ghave sacrifices an entire creature to get ONE +1/+1 counter. Vish-Kal sacrifices an entire creature to get their power and toughness. Not only that, but he's a killspell on a stick. And you can infinite combo with Vish Kal, anything that pumps, ghave and earthcraft. He's great for taking out generals, and it doesn't cost anything to make the counters, unlike on ghave. He is expensive but he's easy to get to 40/40 and swing in with evasion.
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Decks:
Ghave, the Guru of Spores
Mayael the Anima
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
He costs 7, by the time I get that much mana I like my opponents nice and dead. But I guess I should quantify, I like my combos hard core, if your meta is more relaxed with longer games he is fine, but to me I could do so much more with that much mana.
I'm with U-579 on Vish-kal. I was running him before I completely overhauled my list and went bloodthirsty combo, and he's alright in a more relaxed\casual build. But in a hardcore Ghave deck that strictly focuses on combo, that slot is much better served by tutors, draw, "goodstuff," and so on. And really...your "killspell on a stick" is Grave Pact (which I took out of my build, but am highly considering putting back in because it's ridiculous).
I think what I actually did was replace Vish-kal with Triskelion. Kills stuff pretty well, and wins instantly when you go unlimited.
BTW U-579: you were right about the deck's "backup" plans. Plan B = Plan A (over and over and over until it sticks). Last night I recurred Doubling Season a good 4 or 5 times until it finally stuck and won. Sheesh.
Hey shuma, how well does debtor's knell work in your deck? It just doesn't seem that useful to me.
It's slow, but there have been times where it sticks and wreaks some serious havoc (grabbing dudes for defense, getting Witness(es) to recover combo pieces, and so on). I'm thinking I might try something else in its place soon. It's been on my mind. Maybe that's what I'll take out to get that Grave Pact back in.
Plus, since I still lack a Privileged Position and Sterling Grove, big enchantments like that (and the all-important Doubling Season) are constantly getting nuked. Those are the last two things I really think I need to keep this deck rollin'.
I may also just straight up replace Lightning Greaves with Swiftfoot Boots since I have screwed poor Ghave with the Greaves more than once. Haha.
You know that is one slot I have completely forgotten about, I don't think that I have ever played the boots when I have drawn them and I never want to play them or really see them. I almost have to ask is it even worth running either in here or is it a slot that could be better used somewhere else.
I've got the deck back and am going to work. I have to agree with you guys, I need to be running some recursion as well. Some of the cards (well, basically Earthcraft) are just far too good not to want all the time, every game. So much so that I'm considering Argivian Find. So let's make that provisional list from way back real and see what changes.
The last three are new, and are there simply because I don't ever need them. You guys are right, the plan if you fail to go infinite quickly is just to try again until you succeed or die. Nothing else really matters.
On the Greaves/Boots conflict: I've never had any real problems with Ghave having shroud, but I'm still not sure entirely how valuable they are. Ditto Privileged Position and Elspeth, to be honest. As usual, I feel like I need to test more.
I will agree that running more recursion for our enchantments might have some merit. I thought you had discussed taking out attrition before, did you decide against it?
I will agree that running more recursion for our enchantments might have some merit. I thought you had discussed taking out attrition before, did you decide against it?
For the moment. Again, I still don't want to be completely all-in on the combo yet. Attrition is a fine card that subs well for Grave Pact. I wouldn't expect it to last too long though.
In other news, I'm going to start converting this into a primer fairly soon. I think I'm pretty close to knowing where the deck stands.
I have to ask, what benefit does this deck gain from not going all in combo? I guess that it works as an alternative to grave pact, though I personally prefer martyr's bond over attrition due to its activation cost.
I have played both styles of a Ghave build (Aggro - Combo/Control) and even a hybrid of the two. Logged in about 30 commander matches on mtgo against most of the builds out there.
In the end the combo/control version ends up being stronger imo. Tokens are great and all, but they rarely seal the deal.
I think I am pretty close to an optimal build for the combo/control version. I'll post it up here when I get a chance.
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Pauper EDH:
UBPsychatogBU
UInvisible StalkerU
Not playing anything else. Money is tight.
Would someone kindly explain how Puppeteer Clique and Woodfall Primus go infinite?
B The Masquerade
Sac, Puppeteer Clique to Ashnod's Altar for 2
Ghave, Guru of Spores equipped with Blade of the Bloodchief gets a +1/+1 counter.
Persist Triggers, Clique comes back.
Move the +1/+1 Counter from Ghave to Clique using 1
Sac it again.
Ad infinitum?
B The Masquerade
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
1 Acidic Slime
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
1 Hornet Queen
1 Juniper Order Ranger
1 Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
1 Karmic Guide
1 Primeval Titan
1 Reveillark
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Sigil Captain
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Sun Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
1 Woodfall Primus
Sorcery (17)
1 Austere Command
1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Cultivate
1 Damnation
1 Decree of Pain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Explosive Vegetation
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Regrowth
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Storm Herd
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
1 Akroma's Memorial
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Coalition Relic
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Expedition Map
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
Enchantment (6)
1 Aura Shards
1 Debtors' Knell
1 Doubling Season
1 Earthcraft
1 Mana Reflection
1 Mirari's Wake
Instant (6)
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Worldly Tutor
Planeswalker (2)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Liliana Vess
Land (38)
1 Bayou
1 Command Tower
1 Evolving Wilds
7 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Godless Shrine
1 Homeward Path
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Overgrown Tomb
6 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Strip Mine
6 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
I would like to squeeze in Blade of the Bloodchief, Blasting Station, and Swiftfoot Boots, but am not sure what to switch out (maybe black and white Praetors and Kamahl). The deck has been performing exceptionally as is, but I feel like these cards are too good to pass up. I'm also thinking of getting a Garruk, Primal Hunter. You get free guys, he can do some serious card draw, and the ultimate isn't too bad either.
As for the Bitter Ordeal question earlier: it stays for sure. I've used it effectively in multiple games now. I never used it to win, but I always had it when I had plenty of mana to use Ghave a bunch of times, and then seriously weaken everybody's decks. It's never been a dead card. It wins games even without being unlimited.
I guess while we are at it I'll add mine to the mix
1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Artifacts (11):
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Golgari Signet
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Darksteel Ingot
1 Coalition Relic
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
Creatures (16):
1 Juniper Order Ranger
1 Puppeteer Clique
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Sigil Captain
1 Karmic Guide
1 Reveillark
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Triskelion
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Academy Rector
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Twilight Drover
Enchantments (13):
1 Earthcraft
1 Grave Pact
1 Doubling Season
1 Sylvan Library
1 Aura Shards
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Privileged Position
1 Sterling Grove
1 Fecundity
1 Martyr's Bond
1 Black Market
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Mana Reflection
1 Beast Within
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Mortify
1 Putrefy
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Eladamri's Call
1 Chord of Calling
1 Path to Exile
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Worldly Tutor
Lands (36):
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bayou
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Forest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Command Tower
1 Godless Shrine
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dust Bowl
1 Temple Garden
1 Fetid Heath
1 High Market
1 Twilight Mire
1 City of Brass
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Farseek
1 Nature's Lore
1 Three Visits
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Replenish
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Yeah I just had Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite + Kamahl, Fist of Krosa combo in there for the lulz. I've never actually done it, so they're on the chopping block. Sheoldred, Whispering One also hasn't done much other than be intimidating. Replacing the Memorial with Blasting Station, eh? Definitely makes sense--but I lurv the statue! Letting it go would suck. :'(
Sadrobot stays, my friend. He's part of my Reveillark combo package. Getting all basics in play and drawing unlimited cards is pretty good.
I think we've gotten this baby down to the essentials, though! Or we're really close. Soon all will bow down to Ghave and his army of dice!
Fine keep your statue I guess thats a good use for the robot, it's amazing the things I don't think about. I don't know I built another version that had no back up plan where it was completely focused on comboing, but I think we a not far from the most optimized this deck can be.
Then how about cutting storm herd for blasting station?
Edit: It almost seems like this thread has been nominated for future primerism, I would do it myself, but nothing happens in my thread.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Viper said it earlier.. (paraphrasing heavily) why bother building up when you can just win the game?
.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
True. My answer is this: there are games where your combo(s) get nuked. What then? You need a handful of things for the long haul. Garruk 2.0 might be a good guy to fill that role. I already have 'Lark combo and general "goodstuff," but one or two more cards for a long-haul game might be worth it. The card draw can be especially good I think. An explosive leap back into the game.
I have had games where my combos have been disrupted 3+ times and I still have come back to win because of the redundancy or the recursion abilities of the deck, so in my case I have found plan B=plan A again....and again.....and again if need be. about the only thing that has ever really rained on my parade was a return to dust.
Hey Viper got that new list yet?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Yeah, I am seeing the same thing, if one combo gets blasted there is always 6-7 more in the deck, not to mention Regrowth/Eternal Witness.
.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Ghave, the Guru of Spores
Mayael the Anima
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Ghave, the Guru of Spores
Mayael the Anima
Isamaru, Hound of Konda
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I think what I actually did was replace Vish-kal with Triskelion. Kills stuff pretty well, and wins instantly when you go unlimited.
BTW U-579: you were right about the deck's "backup" plans. Plan B = Plan A (over and over and over until it sticks). Last night I recurred Doubling Season a good 4 or 5 times until it finally stuck and won. Sheesh.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
It's slow, but there have been times where it sticks and wreaks some serious havoc (grabbing dudes for defense, getting Witness(es) to recover combo pieces, and so on). I'm thinking I might try something else in its place soon. It's been on my mind. Maybe that's what I'll take out to get that Grave Pact back in.
Plus, since I still lack a Privileged Position and Sterling Grove, big enchantments like that (and the all-important Doubling Season) are constantly getting nuked. Those are the last two things I really think I need to keep this deck rollin'.
So something like:
-Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
-Sheoldred, Whispering One
-Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
-Debtors' Knell
+Sterling Grove
+Privileged Position
+Blasting Station
+Grave Pact
I may also just straight up replace Lightning Greaves with Swiftfoot Boots since I have screwed poor Ghave with the Greaves more than once. Haha.
You know that is one slot I have completely forgotten about, I don't think that I have ever played the boots when I have drawn them and I never want to play them or really see them. I almost have to ask is it even worth running either in here or is it a slot that could be better used somewhere else.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Cuts
Inclusions
On the Greaves/Boots conflict: I've never had any real problems with Ghave having shroud, but I'm still not sure entirely how valuable they are. Ditto Privileged Position and Elspeth, to be honest. As usual, I feel like I need to test more.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
For the moment. Again, I still don't want to be completely all-in on the combo yet. Attrition is a fine card that subs well for Grave Pact. I wouldn't expect it to last too long though.
In other news, I'm going to start converting this into a primer fairly soon. I think I'm pretty close to knowing where the deck stands.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
In the end the combo/control version ends up being stronger imo. Tokens are great and all, but they rarely seal the deal.
I think I am pretty close to an optimal build for the combo/control version. I'll post it up here when I get a chance.