So I got my foil Primordial Hydra today, and the one game I cast it it was incredible to say the least. He's an endless source of counters, and quickly becomes a massive threat. I was a little lucky I guess, because he stuck for several turns, which gave me the opportunity to search up and cast Doubling Season as well. But even without it he's a must-kill-or-you-lose. Eats a killspell for Ghave at the very least. Definitely an include no question.
I will be testing out Ajani Goldmane as well. The -1 seems pretty useful. I also like the Triskelion idea as an immediate win. Either I get my unlimited mana and create an unlimited army and have\search up Akroma's Memorial, or I have\search up Triskelion to shoot everyone to death. More redundancy is good for ol' Ghave.
Both of Ajani and Primordial Hydra, while generating large numbers of counters seem kind of slow. With the hydra, it might double its counters each turn, but wouldn't you rather just combo off and make however many you feel like. Ajani seems even worse off, and just plain too slow.
Can you elaborate on what is working and what is not working? I too am working on a Ghave deck, but I have had very little testing on mine, and its very far behind yours in development.
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Sure. Basically, the combo parts of the deck are working ridiculously well, far better than I expected. As such, all the combo pieces (anything that can go infinite, basically) are staying right where they are. Woodfall Primus has also been a good backup, and is handy when I can't win immediately after comboing, because it makes it pretty hard for anyone to stop me when they have no permanents. Otherwise, most of the cheapish (mana-wise) cards in the deck have been useful. See below for what isn't going so well.
When you play do you interact with others boards much or do you find yourself goldfishing into a win? If so do you think that is a factor of the general? Deck design? Metagame?
Sometimes I goldfish, sometimes I interact. I've addressed this more below.
If you feel it is interactive, then in what way? Could you describe a typical game with it?
I don't feel like I really know what typical is yet. I know that sounds odd (and I've played at least thirty games with the deck by this point), but again, see below. That said, probably the most interesting game I've played with it was where all my combo pieces were slaughtered before I had a chance to do anything with them. I did manage to get Doubling Season out just long enough to insta-ultimate with Elspeth. Then I somehow managed to slip Privileged Position and Sterling Grove out. Then I did a bit of a Shirei, slowly grinding people out with Grave Pact and a few heavy-hitting threats, before finally finding a tutor for Replenish and instawinning.
In general, a lot of the interaction tends to be slowing people down. Vindicate and Beast Within usually go for lands. Aura Shards is fantastic against decks with heavy artifact ramp. That sort of thing. Generally, the only time I'm forced to play a really interactive game is when someone has a faster clock than me, though.
Both of Ajani and Primordial Hydra, while generating large numbers of counters seem kind of slow. With the hydra, it might double its counters each turn, but wouldn't you rather just combo off and make however many you feel like. Ajani seems even worse off, and just plain too slow.
Exactly. As I said above about Protean Hydra, why bother going large when you can go infinite?
Right. Onto the changes. From my experience so far, there are two kinds of games the deck plays: ones where you just sit there and win, and ones where you get disrupted and have to actually put some effort into winning. I'm a little unsure of exactly how sweeping to be with changes here, because I feel like I've been playing way too many of the first kind. I mean, that can't last, can it? Ghave doesn't have the reputation of the ruder blue generals like Arcum or Sharuum (yet), but my playgroup should be wising up to the fact that the deck consistently combos by turn 6 if left unmolested. And yet I'm still sneaking under the radar somehow. Case in point: I have Ghave and Ashnod's Altar on the table. Omnath takes his turn and casts Bear Umbra. Only blue player on the table taps out to counter it. I shrug, untap, play Juniper Order Ranger and Skullclamp. Because of things like this, I don't feel like I'm being forced to interact as much as I should, and I have no idea how long that will last.
With all that in mind, here's a shortlist of possible cuts and inclusions:
Cuts
-Butcher of Malakir and Martyr's Bond: too expensive for this deck. I don't need more than one Grave Pact.
-Avenger of Zendikar, Forgotten Ancient, Kamahl and Protean Hydra: big, but not infinite, and hence feel a bit unnecessary.
-Scavenging Ooze: on the fence. Graveyard hate is obviusly useful at times, but the growth part of things rarely helps at all.
-Regal Force: too expensive for what it does. It tends to be a choice between casting this and winning, so...
-Oracle of Mul Daya: I know, I know, it's scandalous to even consider. But...four mana! That's one too many for a ramp spell when your general costs five and anything you cast afterwards is hopefully going to win.
-Vorinclex: same reason. Reflection and Wake are okay, because they don't really slow you down - play no relevant spells for one turn, then twice as many the next turn. But 8 mana is too long to wait.
-Crime/Punishment: I have never cast it.
-Darksteel Plate: not much point - most targeted removal in EDH is not destruction, and mass removal ruins my day anyway.
Now to trim that lot down into what I'm actually going to do.
First, I'd also throw Spoils of Victory into the ramp pile. Now the way I see it with your card choices;
Wincons
Blasting Station - I'm not sure how I never thought about this kind of card. just having this in play when you combo means you win, and the fact you don't even have to devote any resources to it makes it even better.
Triskelion - since its a creature and an artifact ever tutor in your deck can probably find it, but he seems like you might have to put a little extra effort into him.
Concordant Crossroads - I used to run it, and I took it out but I was thinking about putting it back. The 1 cmc makes it attractive and you win with any of your combos like the station, but unlike triskelion or staff.
Bitter Ordeal - the only non-permanent wincon you are thinking about, and you should be able to win with any of your potential combos.
Thornbite Staff - i think that this is the worst option, because it seems like will have to have ashnod's altar in play in order to win.
Altar of Dementia - Eldrazi and graveyard strategies make me hesitant, but to each their own right?
Tutors
First, I'd say avoid any sorcery speed ones that don't go straight to your hand, like imperial seal and sylvan tutor. And of the ones you have chosen, I run both Diabloics and they do the job. I also run Survival and I think that I is weak in the deck if you don't run much recursion and most creatures are important to the deck's function. I'd also avoid any cards that depend on your opponents or where you have to let something sit around for a turn before things happen.
Summoner's pact - This is one of the best options that I completely forgot about. I'd say that you should probably win the turn you cast it and its cost isn't high either so it won't be back breaking if you can't win.
Natural Order - I'd view this the same way as Diabolic Intent, but maybe better because the creature goes straight to play.
Grim Tutor - one of the better tutors and the life loss should be irrelevant. Beyond that, I won't comment because I will never own this card and see no reason to play test it and wish i could.
Ramp and Land Search:
I would stick with ones that allow you to either find any land or nonbasics. I only run KotR, Three Visits, Nature's Lore, and Farseek. That generally seems to be enough, but if I added more, I might add Spoils of Victory, Corp Rotation, or Reap and Sow. I don't like Weathered Wayfarer because he depends on your opponents.
I would also add the Ooze back, having grave hate so easily tutored up makes me think that he will find his way back into your deck.
I don't think that many people have said this about that card, but I think it falls into the too slow category here.
Edit: Hey viper, I was thinking about Twilight Drover, and do you think that Jade Mage would be better? With the drover, you have to have tokens die before you can make more, and since you seem to have plenty of sources of +1/+1 counters, would it be better to run the mage since you aren't limited to a set number of tokens you can produce and they cost the same to use?
Now that I think about it, I think that the fact that it puts 2 tokens into play is infinitely more important than the the +1/+1 counter.
I was going to make a primer, but this thread is getting a lot more traffic than mine did so I was just conducting my discussion in here and waiting for a primer to pop up, but if one doesn't I might finish making mine into one.
the combos that are infinite(in no specific order) are:
Twilight Drover is actually a combo piece, because it's an endless source of counters. Goes infinite with Altar, for example. I barely ever use its own token creation ability.
Also, I am very strongly considering turning this into a primer at some point. However, I simply don't think I'm in a position to do so until I've figured out exactly what is optimal, and that will take a while.
Have you thought what cards your going to change? I'm curious to see what you do and your reasoning's are.
On the thought of optimizing, what do you think about his deck's mana base? Aside from the obvious things like cradle and such do you think that it matters as long as you can produce the right mana?
Have you thought what cards your going to change? I'm curious to see what you do and your reasoning's are.
Provisionally, it's going to be something like this. All the cuts listed above are getting made for the time being.
-Triskelion and Blasting Station: the two best wincons from the list, by quite a long way. I'll see if I need any more, or if I even need Trike, through more testing.
-Imperial Seal, Summoner's Pact, Natural Order, Grim Tutor and Diabolic Intent: Tutors I think are good enough to make the cut for now. Imperial Seal subject to being able to wrench it out of the hands of the friend who is borrowing it for vintage, and Grim if I can borrow one from same friend.
-Three Visits, Bloom Tender, Nature's Lore and Rofellos: good ramp. Not entirely sure about Rofls yet, because I figure he has to be tapping for at least GG on turn 3 to be worthwhile, and I haven't really paid attention to how consistently I can do that.
-Crop Rotation: card is really good, not much more to say.
Also, I'm swapping a Forest out for a Swamp.
Sound about right?
On the thought of optimizing, what do you think about his deck's mana base? Aside from the obvious things like cradle and such do you think that it matters as long as you can produce the right mana?
I think the mana base is just about as good as it's going to get. You could argue about the SHM/EVE filters, and many do, but I personally don't think there's room for them. I have never really had trouble with the mana.
There's really any number of interesting things you can do with unlimited mana, unlimited tokens, and unlimited enter\leave triggers. That's the core of the deck, and the key card is Doubling Season. The cards you use to take advantage of those things is entirely up to you. There's a lot of redundancy, which is what makes this deck so beastly and versatile.
On that subject, I'm liking the idea of Carnage Altar as a redundant or helping piece. Sometimes I'll get my unlimited shenanigans, but have to wait a turn\round because of no haste or no Triskelion--and someone inevitably has some sort of solution. But if I happen to have the Altar in hand or in play, I can draw up Akroma's Memorial or the Trike. The only reason I haven't tried it yet is because it feels like it's good ONLY in that narrow situation. But it may also prove useful in general. It's another sac outlet, and it draws cards. Worth a try.
There's really any number of interesting things you can do with unlimited mana, unlimited tokens, and unlimited enter\leave triggers. That's the core of the deck, and the key card is Doubling Season. The cards you use to take advantage of those things is entirely up to you. There's a lot of redundancy, which is what makes this deck so beastly and versatile.
That's the point I was trying to make, there's just so many options that you have to combo with. I think Viper said it well:
Indeed, I've already had at least five occasions where I suddenly realised "Wait, I can go infinite with my board! Why didn't I see this three turns ago?" The deck is becoming a real headache to play, I can tell you.
On that subject, I'm liking the idea of Carnage Altar as a redundant or helping piece. Sometimes I'll get my unlimited shenanigans, but have to wait a turn\round because of no haste or no Triskelion--and someone inevitably has some sort of solution. But if I happen to have the Altar in hand or in play, I can draw up Akroma's Memorial or the Trike. The only reason I haven't tried it yet is because it feels like it's good ONLY in that narrow situation. But it may also prove useful in general. It's another sac outlet, and it draws cards. Worth a try.
Well, on the other hand, why not run Sadistic Hypnotist which is free to activate and puts your opponents in top deck mode.
Provisionally, it's going to be something like this. All the cuts listed above are getting made for the time being.
-Triskelion and Blasting Station: the two best wincons from the list, by quite a long way. I'll see if I need any more, or if I even need Trike, through more testing.
I think that those are the two that I would add first, I might add bitter ordeal but I don't know how many win-cons the deck actually needs
-Imperial Seal, Summoner's Pact, Natural Order, Grim Tutor and Diabolic Intent: Tutors I think are good enough to make the cut for now. Imperial Seal subject to being able to wrench it out of the hands of the friend who is borrowing it for vintage, and Grim if I can borrow one from same friend.
I run Diabolic Intent, and have had no problems with it with all of the fungus flying about. I added the pact not too long ago, so I don't think that I can say anything firm about it yet. I see Imperial Seal as sub par because its sorcery speed and it doesn't put the card into your hand, but then again I haven't put much thought into running that card, since its a card I have neither seen nor know anyone who has. Grim tutor falls into about the same boat, but if you can get one I think it is a good option and I would run as my third black tutor after demonic and vampiric. Natural order is a card I can get behind.
[rant]This section hurts to talk about, maybe I should just play online so I don't have worry about budgets, its no fun running sub-par cards when the 'correct' choice's cost=my disposable income for magic that year, but whatever:/ [/endrant]
-Three Visits, Bloom Tender, Nature's Lore and Rofellos: good ramp. Not entirely sure about Rofls yet, because I figure he has to be tapping for at least GG on turn 3 to be worthwhile, and I haven't really paid attention to how consistently I can do that.
-Crop Rotation: card is really good, not much more to say.
Also, I'm swapping a Forest out for a Swamp.
Sound about right?
I think the mana base is just about as good as it's going to get. You could argue about the SHM/EVE filters, and many do, but I personally don't think there's room for them. I have never really had trouble with the mana.
what turn are you comboing off on? you run a lot more ramp than I do and I have no problems comboing of on turn 6 or 7, well that is unless I don't draw basics but that's another story. Although, that does make me wonder about how well Rofellos will work. The only questions I have are is the benefit from oran-rief worth it, and what realistically does shizo do for you?
On that subject, I'm liking the idea of Carnage Altar as a redundant or helping piece. Sometimes I'll get my unlimited shenanigans, but have to wait a turn\round because of no haste or no Triskelion--and someone inevitably has some sort of solution. But if I happen to have the Altar in hand or in play, I can draw up Akroma's Memorial or the Trike. The only reason I haven't tried it yet is because it feels like it's good ONLY in that narrow situation. But it may also prove useful in general. It's another sac outlet, and it draws cards. Worth a try.
Considered it, then suddenly thought "Wait. If I have infinite mana and tokens, why not just cast something that wins?" Seems like a bit of a pointless slot, since I can't see myself using it much when I'm not going infinite (as opposed to Clamp).
Well, on the other hand, why not run Sadistic Hypnotist which is free to activate and puts your opponents in top deck mode.
Same problem.
I see Imperial Seal as sub par because its sorcery speed and it doesn't put the card into your hand
It's obviously strictly worse than Vamp, but in practice I find it doesn't matter too much. They're both really sick on turn 1 and really annoying when you topdeck them. The only difference is that you can't tap out, then untap and cast it in your upkeep, which is barely a difference at all if you ask me. It's certainly still worth running an unconditional CMC1 tutor.
[rant]This section hurts to talk about, maybe I should just play online so I don't have worry about budgets, its no fun running sub-par cards when the 'correct' choice's cost=my disposable income for magic that year, but whatever:/ [/endrant]
Now you're just making me feel bad.
what turn are you comboing off on? you run a lot more ramp than I do and I have no problems comboing of on turn 6 or 7, well that is unless I don't draw basics but that's another story.
Ideally I want to goldfish on turn 5 every time, and potentially earlier. It's not like the ramp is an absolute necessity, but it's not like there is anything better I can think of to run in those slots either.
Although, that does make me wonder about how well Rofellos will work.
We'll see, I guess!
The only questions I have are is the benefit from oran-rief worth it, and what realistically does shizo do for you?
Rief has been really strong for me when I can't go off due to someone blowing up my combo a few times. I'm not 100% set on keeping it in, but it's certainly good. Shizo has won me a few games by letting me sneak a single large/large past blockers. It's not going anywhere.
I've been tinkering with Ghave myself, and find it plays like an annoyingly consistent version of my Ulasht deck...
Some toys I found fun to this effect are simple bouncers like Cloudstone Curio, Nim Deathmantle, and Cauldron of Souls. They can be pretty nifty for mass-removal heavy meta's that ruin your game.
I would also consider Bitter Ordeal not just as a wincon, but even as a play you can cripple another combo player with early on before you go infinite.
I've been tinkering with Ghave myself, and find it plays like an annoyingly consistent version of my Ulasht deck...
Some toys I found fun to this effect are simple bouncers like Cloudstone Curio, Nim Deathmantle, and Cauldron of Souls. They can be pretty nifty for mass-removal heavy meta's that ruin your game.
I would also consider Bitter Ordeal not just as a wincon, but even as a play you can cripple another combo player with early on before you go infinite.
probably more combo's I have not thought up, endless synergy with this guy.
EDIT: One other cool thing about the Nim Deathmantle combo's, you get infinite mana too, so you are not stuck making a zillion 1/1 tokens, you can use Ghave's ability to add +1/+1 counters to make 20 100/100 tokens in case your opponent has a Black Sun's Zenith waiting for you.
Viper, I had an interesting thought when I was looking over my list. How much draw manipulation is too much? I run Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, and Mirri's Guile. Now, I looked at your list and I only saw top. With me running 3 of them I am almost always guarantied to draw one of them in a game, but it sucks to hit more that one. Now I know that can be avoided with shuffle effects and all, but anyways I was starting to think that I have too much of that effect but I'm still undecided. So I wanted to hear your opinion on the matter.
Rief has been really strong for me when I can't go off due to someone blowing up my combo a few times. I'm not 100% set on keeping it in, but it's certainly good. Shizo has won me a few games by letting me sneak a single large/large past blockers. It's not going anywhere.
I guess the fact that every time I have to consider attacking with a large/large creature, its into a black deck, I might have undervalued it a little. Its a pity that there isn't a land that gives trample in these colors.
Viper, I had an interesting thought when I was looking over my list. How much draw manipulation is too much? I run Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, and Mirri's Guile. Now, I looked at your list and I only saw top. With me running 3 of them I am almost always guarantied to draw one of them in a game, but it sucks to hit more that one. Now I know that can be avoided with shuffle effects and all, but anyways I was starting to think that I have too much of that effect but I'm still undecided. So I wanted to hear your opinion on the matter.
Honestly, Library should be in here. I am really bad at putting that card in lists. I'll have to find something to cut for it. Guile, on the other hand, I'm not so fond of. Being able to get that extra card in a pinch is what makes Top and Library seriously good, especially in a combo deck.
Edit: Any idea when your changes are going to become un-provisional and we get to see your updated list?
Well, the same friend who owns the Grims and has his mitts on my Seal has commandeered this deck (and Shirei) for Australian Nationals this weekend, since I unfortunately can't go and he needs some decks to play rounds against the other judges with that aren't top-tier and rude. He is, you see, a massive spike and only owns Azami and 5-colour storm. So I guess next week! I'm wary of making changes to my lists on here without actually doing so physically, because I tend to get things muddled very quickly.
Oh man, that had not even crossed my mind. Now I have to find out whether the deck needs more combos. Thank you!
The only thing I'd be worried about is when do you reach the point where the deck gets to distracted by having so many combos, While it is a perfectly valid combo, and one that should be considered by anyone building the deck, I think that you should focus on the ones you already have.
Honestly, Library should be in here. I am really bad at putting that card in lists. I'll have to find something to cut for it. Guile, on the other hand, I'm not so fond of. Being able to get that extra card in a pinch is what makes Top and Library seriously good, especially in a combo deck.
Yeah, about the only thing I like about it is that it's free other than that I agree it's kinda meh. That and I was kind of hoping you would give me a reason to cut it. I have problems cutting cards that have been helpful in the past even if they start to stop being as useful. I think that my liking for Sadistic Hypnotist might fall into the same category, but then again I run the Reveillark combo and it is a recur-able sac outlet that has allowed me to win a few games that I otherwise had no reason winning.
Well, the same friend who owns the Grims and has his mitts on my Seal has commandeered this deck (and Shirei) for Australian Nationals this weekend, since I unfortunately can't go and he needs some decks to play rounds against the other judges with that aren't top-tier and rude. He is, you see, a massive spike and only owns Azami and 5-colour storm. So I guess next week! I'm wary of making changes to my lists on here without actually doing so physically, because I tend to get things muddled very quickly.
Oh, ok that works. I just was wondering because I think it makes it easier to talk about cards in the context of the deck. I guess its time to move out to a more nebulous mindset of discussion.
Edit: Sell me on blade of the bloodchief , I see that I has combos, but should I run it? Mostly I'm torn and can't decide about it what do you think that I should do?
Lately I've been tinkering with a Ghave deck myself. My build is more "Synergistic Aggro" focusing on winning by token swarm or by general damage.
I'd prefer not to use either Ashnod's Altar or Earthcraft as a matter of principle, but I am wondering if there are any infinite combos still available to me without these two cards?
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@the OP: I'm interested if you've needed the Grave Pact on legs much? Also, how has Perilous Forays worked for you? I've considered both for my version.
Lately I've been tinkering with a Ghave deck myself. My build is more "Synergistic Aggro" focusing on winning by token swarm or by general damage.
I'd prefer not to use either Ashnod's Altar or Earthcraft as a matter of principle, but I am wondering if there are any infinite combos still available to me without these two cards?
Though not infinite, if you have sufficient mana, you can pump up an infecter to lethal poison before damage but after blockers are declared. That is pretty brutal.
I'd prefer not to use either Ashnod's Altar or Earthcraft as a matter of principle, but I am wondering if there are any infinite combos still available to me without these two cards?
Lately I've been tinkering with a Ghave deck myself. My build is more "Synergistic Aggro" focusing on winning by token swarm or by general damage.
I'd prefer not to use either Ashnod's Altar or Earthcraft as a matter of principle, but I am wondering if there are any infinite combos still available to me without these two cards?
The loss of earthcraft and the altar, while it would slow the deck down, there are just so many combos you will still probably find something that can go infinite with all of the interactions in this deck.
How has Citanul Hierophants been working for you, viper? Because all our sporedudes have summoning sickness, this guy is a sad creature version of Earthcraft that is not larkable. How has he been playing for you?
Emmara is like the worst parts of Legends and Homelands got pregnant, aborted the fetus, tossed it in the trashcan, set it on fire and wrapped the corpse in a Dragon's Maze pack wrapper.
I was looking over your list card by card to see if I could find anything else eyebrow raising that we hadn't talked about already, and I also have to ask about Citanul Hierophants it just seems so meh. I guess it could be ok if you had to go slow, but it still doesn't seem that good, now if it was more heritage druid like it would easily be Earthcraft #2 but its not and I have to wonder does it deserve a spot?
I think that the only other thing that I have to ask about it Eldrazi Monument . Is it any good? I have no base to judge it on so I really don't know about it.
So also, I may be taking a slightly modified version of my Ghave deck to an EDH tournament, and I think this deck has the speed to win. However, I've been thinking about it a little, and I'm concerned that I will lose to other faster combo deck like sharuum if I see them. The tournament does use the new French list, which does seem to try to weaken combo, and causes this list to loose vamp tutor and top, but I have been trying to think of something that I could use to disrupt some of the more common combos without being too clunky in the rest of the deck. Since I'm out of ideas do you have any idea of any good disruption pieces
Both of Ajani and Primordial Hydra, while generating large numbers of counters seem kind of slow. With the hydra, it might double its counters each turn, but wouldn't you rather just combo off and make however many you feel like. Ajani seems even worse off, and just plain too slow.
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Sure. Basically, the combo parts of the deck are working ridiculously well, far better than I expected. As such, all the combo pieces (anything that can go infinite, basically) are staying right where they are. Woodfall Primus has also been a good backup, and is handy when I can't win immediately after comboing, because it makes it pretty hard for anyone to stop me when they have no permanents. Otherwise, most of the cheapish (mana-wise) cards in the deck have been useful. See below for what isn't going so well.
Sometimes I goldfish, sometimes I interact. I've addressed this more below.
I don't feel like I really know what typical is yet. I know that sounds odd (and I've played at least thirty games with the deck by this point), but again, see below. That said, probably the most interesting game I've played with it was where all my combo pieces were slaughtered before I had a chance to do anything with them. I did manage to get Doubling Season out just long enough to insta-ultimate with Elspeth. Then I somehow managed to slip Privileged Position and Sterling Grove out. Then I did a bit of a Shirei, slowly grinding people out with Grave Pact and a few heavy-hitting threats, before finally finding a tutor for Replenish and instawinning.
In general, a lot of the interaction tends to be slowing people down. Vindicate and Beast Within usually go for lands. Aura Shards is fantastic against decks with heavy artifact ramp. That sort of thing. Generally, the only time I'm forced to play a really interactive game is when someone has a faster clock than me, though.
Exactly. As I said above about Protean Hydra, why bother going large when you can go infinite?
Right. Onto the changes. From my experience so far, there are two kinds of games the deck plays: ones where you just sit there and win, and ones where you get disrupted and have to actually put some effort into winning. I'm a little unsure of exactly how sweeping to be with changes here, because I feel like I've been playing way too many of the first kind. I mean, that can't last, can it? Ghave doesn't have the reputation of the ruder blue generals like Arcum or Sharuum (yet), but my playgroup should be wising up to the fact that the deck consistently combos by turn 6 if left unmolested. And yet I'm still sneaking under the radar somehow. Case in point: I have Ghave and Ashnod's Altar on the table. Omnath takes his turn and casts Bear Umbra. Only blue player on the table taps out to counter it. I shrug, untap, play Juniper Order Ranger and Skullclamp. Because of things like this, I don't feel like I'm being forced to interact as much as I should, and I have no idea how long that will last.
With all that in mind, here's a shortlist of possible cuts and inclusions:
Cuts
-Butcher of Malakir and Martyr's Bond: too expensive for this deck. I don't need more than one Grave Pact.
-Avenger of Zendikar, Forgotten Ancient, Kamahl and Protean Hydra: big, but not infinite, and hence feel a bit unnecessary.
-Scavenging Ooze: on the fence. Graveyard hate is obviusly useful at times, but the growth part of things rarely helps at all.
-Regal Force: too expensive for what it does. It tends to be a choice between casting this and winning, so...
-Oracle of Mul Daya: I know, I know, it's scandalous to even consider. But...four mana! That's one too many for a ramp spell when your general costs five and anything you cast afterwards is hopefully going to win.
-Vorinclex: same reason. Reflection and Wake are okay, because they don't really slow you down - play no relevant spells for one turn, then twice as many the next turn. But 8 mana is too long to wait.
-Crime/Punishment: I have never cast it.
-Darksteel Plate: not much point - most targeted removal in EDH is not destruction, and mass removal ruins my day anyway.
Inclusions
-Blasting Station, Triskelion, Concordant Crossroads, Altar of Dementia, Bitter Ordeal and Thornbite Staff: convenient wincons after comboing.
-Survival of the Fittest, Grim Tutor, Imperial Seal, Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, Summoner's Pact, Shred Memory, Beseech the Queen, Dimir Machinations, Diabolic Tutor, Congregation at Dawn, Diabolic Intent, Natural Order, Defense of the Heart and Altar of Bone: tutors.
- Harrow, Three Visits, Bloom Tender, Deep Reconnaissance, Far Wanderings, Lotus Cobra, Nature's Lore, Rofellos, Search for Tomorrow, Devoted Druid, Rampant Growth, Sakura-Tribe Elder and Spoils of Victory: more ramp.
-Crop Rotation, Scapeshift, Reap and Sow, Knight of the Reliquary, Weathered Wayfarer, Expedition Map and Sylvan Scrying: find Gaea's Cradle or Shizo.
Now to trim that lot down into what I'm actually going to do.
First, I'd also throw Spoils of Victory into the ramp pile. Now the way I see it with your card choices;
Wincons
First, I'd say avoid any sorcery speed ones that don't go straight to your hand, like imperial seal and sylvan tutor. And of the ones you have chosen, I run both Diabloics and they do the job. I also run Survival and I think that I is weak in the deck if you don't run much recursion and most creatures are important to the deck's function. I'd also avoid any cards that depend on your opponents or where you have to let something sit around for a turn before things happen.
I would stick with ones that allow you to either find any land or nonbasics. I only run KotR, Three Visits, Nature's Lore, and Farseek. That generally seems to be enough, but if I added more, I might add Spoils of Victory, Corp Rotation, or Reap and Sow. I don't like Weathered Wayfarer because he depends on your opponents.
I would also add the Ooze back, having grave hate so easily tutored up makes me think that he will find his way back into your deck.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Pauper EDH:
UBPsychatogBU
UInvisible StalkerU
Not playing anything else. Money is tight.
I don't think that many people have said this about that card, but I think it falls into the too slow category here.
Edit: Hey viper, I was thinking about Twilight Drover, and do you think that Jade Mage would be better? With the drover, you have to have tokens die before you can make more, and since you seem to have plenty of sources of +1/+1 counters, would it be better to run the mage since you aren't limited to a set number of tokens you can produce and they cost the same to use?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I am dying to see someone make a [Primer] on this deck, I am not seeing the combo's you guys say are here, other than:
Ghave + Earthcraft + Blade of the Bloodchief
.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
Now that I think about it, I think that the fact that it puts 2 tokens into play is infinitely more important than the the +1/+1 counter.
I was going to make a primer, but this thread is getting a lot more traffic than mine did so I was just conducting my discussion in here and waiting for a primer to pop up, but if one doesn't I might finish making mine into one.
the combos that are infinite(in no specific order) are:
ghave + earthcraft + doubling season
ghave + earthcraft + juniper order ranger/sigil captain
twilight drover + earthcraft + doubling season + a sac outlet
ghave + woodfall primus/puppeteer clique + ashnod's altar
probably plus more that I couldn't think of off the top of my head and you can add other things to these combos to do even more
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Also, I am very strongly considering turning this into a primer at some point. However, I simply don't think I'm in a position to do so until I've figured out exactly what is optimal, and that will take a while.
On the thought of optimizing, what do you think about his deck's mana base? Aside from the obvious things like cradle and such do you think that it matters as long as you can produce the right mana?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Provisionally, it's going to be something like this. All the cuts listed above are getting made for the time being.
-Triskelion and Blasting Station: the two best wincons from the list, by quite a long way. I'll see if I need any more, or if I even need Trike, through more testing.
-Imperial Seal, Summoner's Pact, Natural Order, Grim Tutor and Diabolic Intent: Tutors I think are good enough to make the cut for now. Imperial Seal subject to being able to wrench it out of the hands of the friend who is borrowing it for vintage, and Grim if I can borrow one from same friend.
-Three Visits, Bloom Tender, Nature's Lore and Rofellos: good ramp. Not entirely sure about Rofls yet, because I figure he has to be tapping for at least GG on turn 3 to be worthwhile, and I haven't really paid attention to how consistently I can do that.
-Crop Rotation: card is really good, not much more to say.
Also, I'm swapping a Forest out for a Swamp.
Sound about right?
I think the mana base is just about as good as it's going to get. You could argue about the SHM/EVE filters, and many do, but I personally don't think there's room for them. I have never really had trouble with the mana.
You can also simply replace Earthcraft with Ashnod's Altar in the first combo.
There's really any number of interesting things you can do with unlimited mana, unlimited tokens, and unlimited enter\leave triggers. That's the core of the deck, and the key card is Doubling Season. The cards you use to take advantage of those things is entirely up to you. There's a lot of redundancy, which is what makes this deck so beastly and versatile.
On that subject, I'm liking the idea of Carnage Altar as a redundant or helping piece. Sometimes I'll get my unlimited shenanigans, but have to wait a turn\round because of no haste or no Triskelion--and someone inevitably has some sort of solution. But if I happen to have the Altar in hand or in play, I can draw up Akroma's Memorial or the Trike. The only reason I haven't tried it yet is because it feels like it's good ONLY in that narrow situation. But it may also prove useful in general. It's another sac outlet, and it draws cards. Worth a try.
That's the point I was trying to make, there's just so many options that you have to combo with. I think Viper said it well:
Well, on the other hand, why not run Sadistic Hypnotist which is free to activate and puts your opponents in top deck mode.
I think that those are the two that I would add first, I might add bitter ordeal but I don't know how many win-cons the deck actually needs
I run Diabolic Intent, and have had no problems with it with all of the fungus flying about. I added the pact not too long ago, so I don't think that I can say anything firm about it yet. I see Imperial Seal as sub par because its sorcery speed and it doesn't put the card into your hand, but then again I haven't put much thought into running that card, since its a card I have neither seen nor know anyone who has. Grim tutor falls into about the same boat, but if you can get one I think it is a good option and I would run as my third black tutor after demonic and vampiric. Natural order is a card I can get behind.
[rant]This section hurts to talk about, maybe I should just play online so I don't have worry about budgets, its no fun running sub-par cards when the 'correct' choice's cost=my disposable income for magic that year, but whatever:/ [/endrant]
what turn are you comboing off on? you run a lot more ramp than I do and I have no problems comboing of on turn 6 or 7, well that is unless I don't draw basics but that's another story. Although, that does make me wonder about how well Rofellos will work. The only questions I have are is the benefit from oran-rief worth it, and what realistically does shizo do for you?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Same problem.
It's obviously strictly worse than Vamp, but in practice I find it doesn't matter too much. They're both really sick on turn 1 and really annoying when you topdeck them. The only difference is that you can't tap out, then untap and cast it in your upkeep, which is barely a difference at all if you ask me. It's certainly still worth running an unconditional CMC1 tutor.
Now you're just making me feel bad.
Ideally I want to goldfish on turn 5 every time, and potentially earlier. It's not like the ramp is an absolute necessity, but it's not like there is anything better I can think of to run in those slots either.
We'll see, I guess!
Rief has been really strong for me when I can't go off due to someone blowing up my combo a few times. I'm not 100% set on keeping it in, but it's certainly good. Shizo has won me a few games by letting me sneak a single large/large past blockers. It's not going anywhere.
Some toys I found fun to this effect are simple bouncers like Cloudstone Curio, Nim Deathmantle, and Cauldron of Souls. They can be pretty nifty for mass-removal heavy meta's that ruin your game.
I would also consider Bitter Ordeal not just as a wincon, but even as a play you can cripple another combo player with early on before you go infinite.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
I am running Nim Deathmantle in mine because:
Ghave + Ashnods Altar + Nim Deathmantle + 1 to start = unlimited colorless and tokens
Ghave + Mana Reflection/Mirari's Wake + Earthcraft + Nim Deathmantle = unilimited mana + tokens
probably more combo's I have not thought up, endless synergy with this guy.
EDIT: One other cool thing about the Nim Deathmantle combo's, you get infinite mana too, so you are not stuck making a zillion 1/1 tokens, you can use Ghave's ability to add +1/+1 counters to make 20 100/100 tokens in case your opponent has a Black Sun's Zenith waiting for you.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
I guess the fact that every time I have to consider attacking with a large/large creature, its into a black deck, I might have undervalued it a little. Its a pity that there isn't a land that gives trample in these colors.
Sorry, I'll just be quiet now
Edit: Any idea when your changes are going to become un-provisional and we get to see your updated list?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
Honestly, Library should be in here. I am really bad at putting that card in lists. I'll have to find something to cut for it. Guile, on the other hand, I'm not so fond of. Being able to get that extra card in a pinch is what makes Top and Library seriously good, especially in a combo deck.
Well, the same friend who owns the Grims and has his mitts on my Seal has commandeered this deck (and Shirei) for Australian Nationals this weekend, since I unfortunately can't go and he needs some decks to play rounds against the other judges with that aren't top-tier and rude. He is, you see, a massive spike and only owns Azami and 5-colour storm. So I guess next week! I'm wary of making changes to my lists on here without actually doing so physically, because I tend to get things muddled very quickly.
The only thing I'd be worried about is when do you reach the point where the deck gets to distracted by having so many combos, While it is a perfectly valid combo, and one that should be considered by anyone building the deck, I think that you should focus on the ones you already have.
Yeah, about the only thing I like about it is that it's free other than that I agree it's kinda meh. That and I was kind of hoping you would give me a reason to cut it. I have problems cutting cards that have been helpful in the past even if they start to stop being as useful. I think that my liking for Sadistic Hypnotist might fall into the same category, but then again I run the Reveillark combo and it is a recur-able sac outlet that has allowed me to win a few games that I otherwise had no reason winning.
Oh, ok that works. I just was wondering because I think it makes it easier to talk about cards in the context of the deck. I guess its time to move out to a more nebulous mindset of discussion.
Edit: Sell me on blade of the bloodchief , I see that I has combos, but should I run it? Mostly I'm torn and can't decide about it what do you think that I should do?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I'd prefer not to use either Ashnod's Altar or Earthcraft as a matter of principle, but I am wondering if there are any infinite combos still available to me without these two cards?
or Saffi Eriksdotter / Reveillark / Karmic Guide shenanigans
@the OP: I'm interested if you've needed the Grave Pact on legs much? Also, how has Perilous Forays worked for you? I've considered both for my version.
Scry! (rollover popups)
Modern: W Soul Sisters (WIP), GW Melira Pod (WIP)
Current EDH:
G Ezuri's Renegade Elves (thread)
BGW Ghave's Legion (thread)
WUB Sharuum, Artifact Savant
Though not infinite, if you have sufficient mana, you can pump up an infecter to lethal poison before damage but after blockers are declared. That is pretty brutal.
Ghave and Woodfall Priums. You're all set.
The loss of earthcraft and the altar, while it would slow the deck down, there are just so many combos you will still probably find something that can go infinite with all of the interactions in this deck.
don't forget puppeteer clique.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I think that the only other thing that I have to ask about it Eldrazi Monument . Is it any good? I have no base to judge it on so I really don't know about it.
So also, I may be taking a slightly modified version of my Ghave deck to an EDH tournament, and I think this deck has the speed to win. However, I've been thinking about it a little, and I'm concerned that I will lose to other faster combo deck like sharuum if I see them. The tournament does use the new French list, which does seem to try to weaken combo, and causes this list to loose vamp tutor and top, but I have been trying to think of something that I could use to disrupt some of the more common combos without being too clunky in the rest of the deck. Since I'm out of ideas do you have any idea of any good disruption pieces
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB