I also feel like this deck ought to run some recursion, but I have no idea what I'd recommend you cut. Maybe you could drop a land for Eternal Witness?
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Ingot is there to get Ghave down a turn earlier - if I had to cut ramp, I'd rather cut some of the more expensive ones (a lot of good ramp has already gone from the deck, I must say). Vorinclex is there as a tutorable Reflection, which is fantastic. I don't think I want to cut either of those cards. Indeed, I don't think I want to cut any cards.
Also, the Coffers engine seems a bit awkward in 3-colour, because Coffers is terrible without Urborg, and Temple is terrible without both the others (or Cradle).
I also feel like this deck ought to run some recursion, but I have no idea what I'd recommend you cut. Maybe you could drop a land for Eternal Witness?
I'd rather stay on the heavy side with land until I've tested the deck, at least.
Mycoloth is really tempting, but a little greedy - it was a late cut. Ditto Feeder and Weaver. Hydra seems like a bad Vigor.
I really, really have no idea what can be cut from this deck right now. I feel like I need to test it before making that decision.
The thing that makes Hydra seem especially attractive is that his "put two counters" ability triggers off of counters removed from him for any reason. So if you remove counters to Ghave's ability, you get a creature and then two more counters at the end of the turn. Vigor is good for turning damage into counters immediately, but can't boast quite that nuttiness.
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The thing that makes Hydra seem especially attractive is that his "put two counters" ability triggers off of counters removed from him for any reason. So if you remove counters to Ghave's ability, you get a creature and then two more counters at the end of the turn. Vigor is good for turning damage into counters immediately, but can't boast quite that nuttiness.
Wow, I totally missed that they were separate abilities. Haven't read that card in a year or two.
really? can you be too greedy in edh? the answer is no. you can't. as efficient as this creature is, and as big as you can make him, he needs to be in there. I tried to wrap my brain around this token producing powerhouse not being in a ghave deck, I'm sorry, I just cant do it. I could maybe understand no Verdant force due to the three green required. but with zenith and tooth and nail that kind of blows my mind as well. but take it or leave it its your deck, i wish you many epic wins.
I really would love to see Skullbriar, the Walking Grave make your list. He has haste + he picks up more +1/+1 counters over time. If you want to run some rez you can keep counters stored on him as well.
I was also thinking that some indestructible creatures would be really cool in here. I was thinking, I think someone actually swinging at someone with a Stuffy Doll would be like the coolest thing ever. If they block they might still take damage, if not you just stack counters up on that stuffy doll making it one mean machine. Darksteel Sentinel, Thornling, Konda, Lord of Eiganjo, Spearbreaker Behemoth could also fit this whole rock style token theme.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
really? can you be too greedy in edh? the answer is no. you can't. as efficient as this creature is, and as big as you can make him, he needs to be in there. I tried to wrap my brain around this token producing powerhouse not being in a ghave deck, I'm sorry, I just cant do it. I could maybe understand no Verdant force due to the three green required. but with zenith and tooth and nail that kind of blows my mind as well. but take it or leave it its your deck, i wish you many epic wins.
Let me elaborate: I really don't see him doing much more than inviting a removal spell or board wipe most of the time. That's not something I really want to do, and even a spot removal spell partially wipes me, thanks to the Saprolings the Mycoloth ate. I'm just not sold on it right now. But if it turns out that I attract less removal than I'm expecting, then I might have to reconsider.
I really would love to see Skullbriar, the Walking Grave make your list. He has haste + he picks up more +1/+1 counters over time. If you want to run some rez you can keep counters stored on him as well.
He's not efficient enough in the counter production department.
I was also thinking that some indestructible creatures would be really cool in here. I was thinking, I think someone actually swinging at someone with a Stuffy Doll would be like the coolest thing ever. If they block they might still take damage, if not you just stack counters up on that stuffy doll making it one mean machine. Darksteel Sentinel, Thornling, Konda, Lord of Eiganjo, Spearbreaker Behemoth could also fit this whole rock style token theme.
I guess, but it's not really where I want to go with the deck.
I expect I'll be putting this together over the next week or so. Expect playtesting results presently.
Edit: One more change. Puppeteer Clique turned out to be sick in preliminary testing. It's a bit of a cop-out, but I'm cutting Swiftfoot Boots for now, since, you know, they don't actually exist for another month.
i understand your trepedation on mycoloth and his devour. but the ease with which you can put counters on him with your general.......seems to make a lot of sense. even only sacking 1 token to his devour, you still get a lot of value to him adding counters at the end step before your turn. i have been playtesting this general and mycoloth is sick in the build. hope to hear your testing results soon viper. have a great one
Okay, so I've done a little bit of preliminary testing. And my first reaction has been mostly "whoa". Basically, the deck is faster, stronger and more consistent than I was really expecting. And it's not even finished yet (the one I've been using so far is about ten cards short of the list above). Some notes:
I've been managing to either go off completely or get a powerful engine going on an average of about turn 6.
Earthcraft and Puppeteer Clique are stone-cold ridiculous. Both of them are streets ahead of Doubling Season. Earthcraft goes infinite with any convenient source of counters, and is powerful, cheap ramp even without anything to abuse it. Clique with Ghave reads "2: Use any ETB, LTB and t abilities of target creature card in an opponent's graveyard. Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature." Anything that makes two or more mana by entering, leaving or tapping gives you infinite counters. Three or more mana means infinite mana as well. Going off on the back of an opponent's Bloom Tender just feels so right. (Speaking of which, is that a card I should be running? Hmm.)
A lot of cards are feeling a bit clunky. Why do I want to cast Butcher of Malakir when I can just win instead? Same with Attrition, Protean Hydra (most of the time), and indeed Mycoloth, which I have been running in a slot I don't have the real card for yet.
I think that if these results continue (I haven't lost a multiplayer game yet), I might have to go a little bit more all-in on comboing with Ghave. I've also got some obvious early cuts in mind. I should have everything assembled by next week, and I should be able to get some more testing done too. After that, I think a first round of changes will be in order.
Thoughts on Sadistic Hypnotist? It could allow you to empty your opponents hands before you try to combo out and/or allow you to proceed with your game plan without a care in the world.
A lot of cards are feeling a bit clunky. Why do I want to cast Butcher of Malakir when I can just win instead? Same with Attrition, Protean Hydra (most of the time), and indeed Mycoloth, which I have been running in a slot I don't have the real card for yet.
I think that if these results continue (I haven't lost a multiplayer game yet), I might have to go a little bit more all-in on comboing with Ghave. I've also got some obvious early cuts in mind. I should have everything assembled by next week, and I should be able to get some more testing done too. After that, I think a first round of changes will be in order.
Pardon my impatience, but I'm trying to tune my own list, and I haven't had as much time to play test as I would like. So I was curious what your list of clunky cards is so that I can keep an eye on them I my build, and what looks like its going to get the axe?
Pardon my impatience, but I'm trying to tune my own list, and I haven't had as much time to play test as I would like. So I was curious what your list of clunky cards is so that I can keep an eye on them I my build, and what looks like its going to get the axe?
I'm hesitant basically because the deck is still not finished (physically). Things might change. But provisionally, the following cards in the 'Ghave Abuse' category have been underwhelming:
I can understand that. I am curious though what your end game has been, because most of the games I have played, with my build, have ended with a pact effect locking out my opponents and just attacking through with ghave. So that makes me wonder if i'm doing something wrong play wise or have made a build error since your finding Martyr's Bond weak (though I can agree to Butcher since its a cmc 7 creature). But, I have only played at most maybe 5 games with mine, so I might just need to shut up and go play test more.
Also is Liliana worth running? I would think it would be too slow
I can understand that. I am curious though what your end game has been, because most of the games I have played, with my build, have ended with a pact effect locking out my opponents and just attacking through with ghave. So that makes me wonder if i'm doing something wrong play wise or have made a build error since your finding Martyr's Bond weak (though I can agree to Butcher since its a cmc 7 creature). But, I have only played at most maybe 5 games with mine.
I haven't had a game yet that I haven't won with a combo, or at least something on the level of Sigil Captain. Usually it's something absurd with Earthcraft. That doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something wrong though. I might have just been lucky so far, or you might be going for something slightly different.
Also is Liliana worth running? I would think it would be too slow
I run her here for the same reason she's in Shirei - if your first attempt to set an engine up gets knocked back, she is fantastic at setting you up again in no time.
I haven't had a game yet that I haven't won with a combo, or at least something on the level of Sigil Captain. Usually it's something absurd with Earthcraft. That doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something wrong though. I might have just been lucky so far, or you might be going for something slightly different.
I can see that, maybe I just need to cut out some side themes to cut out excess bulk and attempt to streamline.
On that thought, I Sigil Captain good? I passed it over and went with just Juniper Order Ranger because I wasn't sure it was worth it, and also because it didn't interact with other combos I was trying to run.
On that thought, I Sigil Captain good? I passed it over and went with just Juniper Order Ranger because I wasn't sure it was worth it, and also because it didn't interact with other combos I was trying to run.
It's a wincon by itself (particularly if you throw in some mana doubling), it's a perfect way to go infi with Earchcraft, and if nothing else, it's a relentlessly efficient source of counters. It's an auto-include, and much better than the Ranger.
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1 Ghave, Guru of Spores
Ghave Abuse (18)
1 Aura Shards
2 Puppeteer Clique
3 Bitter Ordeal
4 Young Wolf
5 Triskelion
6 Blasting Station
7 Doubling Season
8 Earthcraft
9 Fecundity
10 Skullclamp
11 Geralf's Messenger
12 Ashnod's Altar
13 Blood Artist
14 Butcher Ghoul
15 Woodfall Primus
16 Juniper Order Ranger
17 Sadistic Hypnotist
18 Phyrexian Altar
Tutor & Draw (22)
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Liliana Vess
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Vampiric Tutor
5 Chord of Calling
6 Green Sun's Zenith
7 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Tooth and Nail
9 Academy Rector
10 Enlightened Tutor
11 Idyllic Tutor
12 Eladamri's Call
13 Sterling Grove
14 Mirri's Guile
15 Dimir Machinations
16 Summoner's Pact
17 Natural Order
18 Crop Rotation
19 Diabolic Intent
20 Sylvan Library
21 Grim Tutor
22 Imperial Seal
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Cultivate
3 Farseek
4 Kodama's Reach
5 Mana Reflection
6 Mana Crypt
7 Three Visits
8 Sol Ring
9 Chromatic Lantern
10 Nature's Lore
11 Coalition Relic
12 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
13 Bloom Tender
Removal (4)
1 Beast Within
2 Vindicate
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Abrupt Decay
Recursion (4)
1 Replenish
2 Regrowth
3 Eternal Witness
4 Argivian Find
Land (38)
1 Bayou
2 Wooded Bastion
3 Twilight Mire
4 City of Brass
5 Command Tower
6 Evolving Wilds
7 Gaea's Cradle
8 Godless Shrine
9 Fetid Heath
10 Marsh Flats
11 Murmuring Bosk
12 Ancient Tomb
13 Overgrown Tomb
14 Reflecting Pool
15 Savannah
16 Scrubland
17 Forbidden Orchard
18 Temple Garden
19 Temple of the False God
20 Terramorphic Expanse
21 Verdant Catacombs
22 Volrath's Stronghold
23 Windswept Heath
24 Wooded Foothills
25 Bloodstained Mire
26 Arid Mesa
27 Flooded Strand
28 Polluted Delta
29 Misty Rainforest
38 Plains
I also feel like this deck ought to run some recursion, but I have no idea what I'd recommend you cut. Maybe you could drop a land for Eternal Witness?
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
Also, the Coffers engine seems a bit awkward in 3-colour, because Coffers is terrible without Urborg, and Temple is terrible without both the others (or Cradle).
I'd rather stay on the heavy side with land until I've tested the deck, at least.
Mycoloth is really tempting, but a little greedy - it was a late cut. Ditto Feeder and Weaver. Hydra seems like a bad Vigor.
I really, really have no idea what can be cut from this deck right now. I feel like I need to test it before making that decision.
The thing that makes Hydra seem especially attractive is that his "put two counters" ability triggers off of counters removed from him for any reason. So if you remove counters to Ghave's ability, you get a creature and then two more counters at the end of the turn. Vigor is good for turning damage into counters immediately, but can't boast quite that nuttiness.
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Wow, I totally missed that they were separate abilities. Haven't read that card in a year or two.
Okay, I have to consider him now. Hmm.
really? can you be too greedy in edh? the answer is no. you can't. as efficient as this creature is, and as big as you can make him, he needs to be in there. I tried to wrap my brain around this token producing powerhouse not being in a ghave deck, I'm sorry, I just cant do it. I could maybe understand no Verdant force due to the three green required. but with zenith and tooth and nail that kind of blows my mind as well. but take it or leave it its your deck, i wish you many epic wins.
I was also thinking that some indestructible creatures would be really cool in here. I was thinking, I think someone actually swinging at someone with a Stuffy Doll would be like the coolest thing ever. If they block they might still take damage, if not you just stack counters up on that stuffy doll making it one mean machine. Darksteel Sentinel, Thornling, Konda, Lord of Eiganjo, Spearbreaker Behemoth could also fit this whole rock style token theme.
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He's not efficient enough in the counter production department.
I guess, but it's not really where I want to go with the deck.
Right you are, snap in (and Viridian Joiner out).
Also: Glare of Subdual gets the boot for Protean Hydra , and a Swamp goes for Shizo, Death's Storehouse.
I expect I'll be putting this together over the next week or so. Expect playtesting results presently.
Edit: One more change. Puppeteer Clique turned out to be sick in preliminary testing. It's a bit of a cop-out, but I'm cutting Swiftfoot Boots for now, since, you know, they don't actually exist for another month.
I think that if these results continue (I haven't lost a multiplayer game yet), I might have to go a little bit more all-in on comboing with Ghave. I've also got some obvious early cuts in mind. I should have everything assembled by next week, and I should be able to get some more testing done too. After that, I think a first round of changes will be in order.
If I have Sigil Captain and Juniper Order Ranger out along with Glorious Anthem and create a 1/1 saproling token when all is said and done will it hit the battlefield as a 5/5?
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
Along these same lines, Creakwood Liege would probably be very good here as well
RWU
Zedruu, the Greathearted
RGW Uril, the Miststalker
This is incorrect. Glorious Anthem is a continous effect so the Sigil Captain will not recognize the token as a 1/1.
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
I would ditch the Anthem for Creakwood Liege, it's an Anthem that creates guys. So good with Ghave.
I don't own him (didn't buy any of that block) maybe I go with this guy instead Tolsimir Wolfblood not as good but at least I own him .
GBW Ghave - BWR Kaalia - UBG Mineoplasm - URG Riku - GRW Uril - GBR Prossh, I need food - BWU Oloro Lock - UGW Derevi Blink - RBU Nekusar, the Wheeler - UBRWG Progenitus - BR Lyzolda - UB Gisa & Geralf Zombies - UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest +1 Counters matter - W Lin Sivvi - BWU Sydri Artifact Control - RWU Narset, the Attacker - GRW Mayael, the Cheater - RWUG Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis Landfall - GBW Doran, I like Big Butts - UR Mizzix Buyback BWR Edgar and his Vamps
--Evil
Pardon my impatience, but I'm trying to tune my own list, and I haven't had as much time to play test as I would like. So I was curious what your list of clunky cards is so that I can keep an eye on them I my build, and what looks like its going to get the axe?
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I'm hesitant basically because the deck is still not finished (physically). Things might change. But provisionally, the following cards in the 'Ghave Abuse' category have been underwhelming:
Also is Liliana worth running? I would think it would be too slow
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
I haven't had a game yet that I haven't won with a combo, or at least something on the level of Sigil Captain. Usually it's something absurd with Earthcraft. That doesn't necessarily mean you're doing something wrong though. I might have just been lucky so far, or you might be going for something slightly different.
I run her here for the same reason she's in Shirei - if your first attempt to set an engine up gets knocked back, she is fantastic at setting you up again in no time.
I can see that, maybe I just need to cut out some side themes to cut out excess bulk and attempt to streamline.
On that thought, I Sigil Captain good? I passed it over and went with just Juniper Order Ranger because I wasn't sure it was worth it, and also because it didn't interact with other combos I was trying to run.
UWRasputin DreamweaverUW
UWBSen TripletsUWB
It's a wincon by itself (particularly if you throw in some mana doubling), it's a perfect way to go infi with Earchcraft, and if nothing else, it's a relentlessly efficient source of counters. It's an auto-include, and much better than the Ranger.