Sorry zig, the rack doesn't help dredge at all. You don't draw those cards you're getting, they're being 'put' into your hand, which is much different than drawing. It doesn't trigger dredge.
"Some of the other guys dared me to go out, but I knew it weren't no ordinary giant giga-blasting blaze of unending flames that would scorch the whole world."
—Norin the Wary
Jarad's Orders works pretty well in my build. Drop Grave Troll or another dredger to start your engine in the grave and get an castable creature into your hard.
What do you guys think of Ill-gotten gains? It's a good way to dump the stuff you need into your grave while also recurring/keeping important things. And it makes people who aren't playing graveyard builds (especially the sort who play no hand limit cards) lose a lot of cards.
I think Ill-gotten gains sounds like a fairly cool idea. It can easily be disruptive to opponents while getting you gas.
I do think there is a substantial risk that you will not have one of your engines like Crucible or LftL online and then it will hit you as hard as everyone else.
Basically, when it works it will work well, but there is risk it will be dead.
I do think zig's trick with the Thug works (stack triggers to Thugs resolves first, then replace the second draw). I still dont think it is worth it. The Thug is pretty much worthless by himself, if you get the Skullclamp engine going it is really good, otherwise I would rather play any other Gravedigger effect (since it does not rely on the creature dying).
I've recently started using Battlefield Scrounger and he's been amazing. You hit threshold very quickly, and his ability to recycle 3 cards a turn is not only great, it also protects your dredgers from graveyard hate. Whenever I dredge stuff like Putrefy or one of my reanimation spells, I simply ship those to the bottom of the deck.
I don't like the Trike-Mikaeus combo. It's... boring, quite frankly. I even took it out from my mono-black Mikaeus deck. At least Lord of Extinction + Jaarad requires some setup (can't be done arbitrarily at any point in the game; susceptible to graveyard hate).
Personally, I thought Jarad's Orders was quite decent, but not great. It does its job adequately, but doesn't do anything already covered by many more efficient spells, and isn't a spell stapled to a creature, so I cut it.
I'm going to contend Centarion's analysis of the Thug (for the sake of discussion). He is a 2-mana creature, and this deck really works in increments of 2 and 3 mana. A lot of your action happens in instances of paying 2 and 3 (Genesis triggers, Jarad flings, ramp-elves, altar of dementia, Demonic Tutor), and being able to dredge a 2 drop to play this turn is quite valuable (for Dread Return flashback, etc). He is oftentimes Stinkweed Imp #2. The fact that his dying trigger is badly timed, mandatory, and not card advantage is mitigated by the fact that he is a sort of rattlesnake blocker. Most players understand quickly that making your creatures die often benefits you, and in this way he can ward off attackers, even if you didn't want him to die anyways.
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I have tested Stinkweed Imp and found it lacking as well, so the comparison to Stinkweed #2 is not a shining endorsement IMO. I also do not run Dread Return.
I agree with your assessment that we often work in increments of 2-3 mana and like to play multiple spells/use multiple effect per turn. I disagree that it is useful to dredge Thug in order to be able to spend the last 2 mana. Outside of Skullclamp a 2 mana 1/1 is just not something I want. Even if I am for sure going to use him to chump 6+ damage and get a creature I want back on top (which is pretty much his ideal scenario) I would generally rather just have the draw. If we really wanted more repeatable creature recursion, we could just run Oversold Cemetery or Phyrexian Reclamation.
We have to remember that this guy is replacing another card in the deck, both in terms of deck space, and draws every time you dredge him. IMO he is one of the worst repeatable creature recursion tools imaginable, so I would rather have just drawn pretty much anything else instead of dredging him. The 4 card self mill is just not worth it (and if I wanted that effect I would rather just run the first Stinkweed). This card is ONLY good (defined as something I won't groan when I draw) when I have Skullclamp going, and I generally don't need much help at that point.
Scrounger sounds interesting, how much value do you get by recycling cards? The engine protection does sound appealing, does anyone have any other options for that type of effect? I may try testing that (and possibly upping my fetch count even though I hate shuffling mid game).
I REALLY like Jarad's Orders. I agree it is not great if you are using it like a Diabolic Tutor, but it is still passable. It really shines in a list running Phyrexian Delver. In that case it is both an Entomb and a tutor for your reanimation spell, worst case. Best case you already have the reanimation and get to get a target and Eternal Witness or some other pile of value stapled on a creature.
I feel 30 would be a bare-bones minimum amount of creatures to run here. As non-creatures are fairly much useless in the graveyard, it's really better to run as many as you can. It also enables Jarad beats that much more quickly if you have high density.
Riftsweeper is also a reactionary card to graveyard hate. Its effect is weaker, but requires less commitment. I like the Scrounger too, but he seems a bit expensive for what will be a 3/3 vanilla most of the time. Shipping non-lands and non-creatures to the bottom does seem very useful, though. I shall test it out.
I cut Jarad's Orders for a Dimir House Guard because of better interactions. I can definitely see the value of Orders, though, and its value will depend on how many good pairs you can make with it.
Re: Golgari Thug - Yeah, while I generally agree, I just wanted to provide a counterpoint for the usefulness of cheap dredgers. It's also very useful to have a creature dredger on hand for Survival of the Fittest. Dread Return is very good, by the way. It adds an extra layer of redundancy on critical turns, especially when you attempt to combo out. Stinkweed Imp is staying in my build for now, because of all the Kaalia and Sigarda in my group.
Speaking of those, here are some problem (and semi-common) cards which are difficult for us to deal with:
Sigarda is especially difficult to deal with, as she is immune to the vast majority of our removal, and few of our guys can go toe to toe with her. She's also very common. Iona is not as difficult, since we can still dredge/survival/genesis/pod into an Eternal Witness/Beast Within. Humility shuts down almost every way we have to gain advantage in the deck, and simultaneously takes away our combo and beatdown potential. It's also immune to Acidic Slime & friends.
The answer I see to most 'lockdown angels' is a creature nuke. Arashi, Sky Asunder seems ideal, as it can be retrieved through green or black tutor, and can also be used without being cast (and at instant speed). I'm still looking for more wraths stapled to creatures, though. Kagemaro, First to Suffer seems the most reliable, even though he's not always reliable. Bane of the Living seems suboptimal for his need to be unmorphed.Pestilence Demon kills our own board faster than theirs. Suggestions?
Finally, here are some interesting interactions I've discovered with the deck.
- Woodfall Primus/Mikaeus combo: You can repeatedly sacrifice in response to the Primus' ETB trigger, meaning you can infinitely mill and destroy anywhere from 1 to all noncreature permanents, if you desire.
- Wickerbough Elder has fake-persist for the purposes of Mikaeus combo.
- Sylvan Library + 3 Dredged cards means that you don't have to put any cards back.
- Recurring Oracle of Mul Daya allows you to play an extra land for each instance of the Oracle on the field.
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If you have a problem with flying creatures then Stinkweed Imp is a very good early play. If I played against a lot of flying agro (or any large creature based agro) I would put him in as well. Most of the agro I face seems to be weenie swarm though, so I don't find him useful.
I like the concept of Scrounger more than Riftsweeper since it is repeatable. Riftsweeper may be repeatable with recursion but will still cost mana. I also like that Scrounger lets you recycle stuff if you want to tutor (and does not require it to be exiled first). I guess being able to get stuff back AFTER it is hated is good, and a 5 drop is a bit slow to start protecting yourself from grave hate.
I am running both Orders and House Guard. If I had to cut a tutor though, I think I would cut Worldly before Orders. I think we have had this discussion earlier in the thread, but I don't blame you for not reading all of it
I am only running 2 reanimation spells, I should likely try Dread Return over Necromancy or Animate Dead
I have at least as many answers to Sigarda as I do to Iona. I run both Living Death and Damnation in my list, and I don't think I could survive the token agro without them. Iona is more of a problem since the only non-black way to kill creatures I currently run is Beast Within. Angel of Jubilation should not be a problem, we have tons and tons of black removal to hit it. If these things are more of a problem Arashi is probably the best answer as you suggested. I think you have hit on most of the creature-wraths that are good (at least against big fliers). If you had more of a problem with tokens I would consider Massacre Wurm, if you want repeatable anti-flier go with Silklash Spider. The problem with Silklash is of course that you probably need it to table in order to kill anything large, unless you have tons of mana. In general I don't find I need more than the Dmannation and Living Death most of the time and if I do need more than 2 wraths (plus however many times I can recur non-creatures) I am generally having problems with tokens and I use the Wurm.
Humility and Torpor Orb should not cause too much of a problem, the certainly suck for use, but they do for pretty much everyone, and we are in green and I am running Beast Within and Krosan Grip, both of which deal with them. I can also use Regrowth or tutors to find answers.
Strangle Hold is worse (since we can't tutor out) but we can try to dredge+EWit out, and Slime also works.
I think the problems you are having with Torpor and Humility are due to an over-reliance on utility creatures. Sure more creatures are good, but ~1/2 of your non-land cards is probably plenty, and more than that and creature hate starts to screw you. I like having each effect I need access to on a creature so I can recur them, but I would not run sub par creatures over good non-creatures just to up the creature count (Why I don't run Butcher of Malakir and do run Grave Pact).
All of those interactions are cool, and now that you mention it Wickerbough is another good answer to Torpor and Strangle.
Yeah. I still think Scrounger is sub-par on paper, but that he mitigates a lot of disadvantage in this deck. I honestly think he's more useful for tucking spells away than resisting hate, because tucking in response to targeted hate is only marginally less bad for you (and fairly equivalent to Riftsweeper in that regard). Riftsweeper is the better card for re-finding specific combo pieces, as it can also interact with Swords to Ploughshares, Return to Dust, etc.
Necromancy and Animate Dead are both extremely solid. I'd run Reanimate over Animate Dead, though, because it's harder to deal with, and much faster, assuming you don't have a tonne of aggro. If you want to cut one to test Dread Return, I'd suggest Animate Dead. Necromancy is just too flexible with its instant speed. Dread Return is unexciting, but very good long-term value. Also, when you try to go off, someone will invariably attempt to bounce/exile/kill one of your pieces, and you can sac it in response and flash the creature back in for 'free'. I'd consider it on par with Victimise, as this is slower and more flexible, while Victimise makes up for it with speed and raw power.
Wickerbough Elder is, in my opinion, almost good as Acidic Slime. He's a big rattlesnake, and the same total CMC, but is more flexible on the curve.
I wish there was a 4-5 CMC creature that had "XBB: All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn." Oh well, one can dream. Yeah, you are prolly right on the overreliance on creatures. I've been fairly stubborn and only run the singleton Decree of Pain as my spell-sweeper; I think I will cave and add Damnation. I need to open up a slot for Living Death too.
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Oops, I mad several false statements in my last post.
I do in fact run Reanimate and Decree of Pain. I will test Dread return over Animate Dead, I think the flexibility is probably worth it, I may also have to reconsider Victimize.
I would like to run Wickerbough, and I agree he is great, the downside is the inability to kill arbitrarily large ground creatures and the inability to hit troublesome lands. I am not sure what to cut for him. My list is very similar to the one in the OP, that was pretty much my starting point. I have made some changes since then but I think I am still within 10 or so cards.
I kind of want to build this deck so I had a few questions before I start ordering cards for it (mostly the LOE/sewer nemesis I have most everything else from a legacy collection)
What are the non creature auto includes. So far my list of "Must be included" is this please tell me what the other cut able slots are in the list because I really want upward of 38-40 creatures.
Survival of the fittest
Sol ring
Skull clamp
Sensei's top
Birthing pod
Vampiric tutor
Demonic tutor
Mana crypt (though mine will be cut for now as it's in oona)
Life from the loam
Are tarmogoyf, mortavore, terravore, the original lygoyf any good in this deck? I was hoping to play a significant number of fatties like this.
Are mana dorks (Birds, the half a dozen lanawar elf varients ect.) any good?
How needed is a combo kill? Do you more often kill by sacing a giant dude to jarad or combo off.
Specific card question. How strong is greater good? It seems abysmal outside of LOE (which you want to feed to Jarad) Sewer nemesis (which you want to feed to Jarad) and other goyfs (which you want to feed to Jarad)
I have a ton of flying in my meta. What is the best answer to that with this deck? Whiplash spider? Stinkweed imp? Arashi sky asunder? Hurricane?
Besides simply not overextending how do you beat crypt/spellbomb/bog? Is that the only thing you can do? Since in my meta every single GY hate card will be pointed at this deck.
Forgive me I have read a great deal of the thread but not all 70+ pages.
In my experience with the deck I have been very happy with pretty much every card currently in the list. It is difficult for me to recommend certain cards that are more uncuttable than others since a huge amount of testing and development was put in to tuning this deck. That said it is probably not tuned to your meta or play style, and I am sure there are plenty of other good builds.
I am not certain if the tutors you mentioned are actually uncuttable. Here is my list of non creature auto includes (I still advise testing, at least on line with the build on the front page to get a feel for all the cards before making serious changes):
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Phyrexian Arena
Greater Good
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Crucible of Worlds
Mimic Vat
Life from the Loam
Living Death
I would also recommend running some spot and mass removal of your choice on non-creatures (Likely Maelstrom Pulse, KGrip, Beast Within, Damnation at least). The cards above form most of our (non-creature based) engines, and our limmited methods of gaining card advantage, and the cards that can just plain win the game. I would not want to play this deck without them (or likely any GB deck).
Greater Good is excellent in this deck. It is integral to many of our engines. It is outstanding with Mimic Vat, outstanding whenever we get a recursion loop going, and it protects our guys from Mind Control effects and give us value when they die. In general you do not just feed your guys to Jarad willy nilly. Life loss is irrelevant until it is the last point. I would much rather hang onto my guy and attack with him and be ready to eat him with Greater Good than pitch him to Jarad, unless I can win on the spot or take out a threat.
I am not a huge fan of random Lurgoyfs. I like my creatures to produce value even if they get removed or swept instantly. Sometimes there is a creature that is so good that it gets a pass, but a vanilla attacker (like Tarmo) is just not what I want to be doing. Similarly, in my experience, mana dorks tend to die, this is why creature based ramp that puts lands into play is preferred.
If you have a bunch of flying in your meta I suggest at least Stinkweed Imp and Arashi the Sky Asunder. If you need more than that, or need repeatable sweeps Silklash Spider is good if you can protect it or recur it.
I have not really had a problem with grave hate. There are enough alternate plans in the deck that you can just pick another route to victory. I got hit by Identity Crisis with 20+ cards in my graveyard and still won because I managed to get a Rune-Scared Demon on my Mimic Vat and then proceeded to draw a million cards off Greater good and seal the game with Kokopuffs looping. We have a re-animator plan, and the LoE+Jarad plan, and the Jarad beatdown plan, and the combo plan, and the Goodstuff plan (with Filth to help close out games). I would avoid over extending if possible, but I would not worry if your GY gets nuked.
Survival of the fittest
Sol ring
Skull clamp
Sensei's top
Birthing pod
Vampiric tutor
Demonic tutor
Mana crypt (though mine will be cut for now as it's in oona)
Life from the loam
I run all of those except the Crypt, Vampiric Tutor, and Birthing Pod, though for two of those it is because I don't own them, and for Birthing Pod because I just haven't gotten into a situation where I've felt like I needed it. I run three mana dorks, though I am considering swapping two of them out for something else, partly because they are two for ones.
I never get into a combo kill situation. Hopefully later this week I will get on here and post my personal list, but for me the win usually involves swarming with tokens or saccing something to Jarad to kill my opponents, meanwhile using things like Sheoldred to stall out my opponents for a bit.
I can't answer to some of your other questions since I haven't run those specific cards in this deck!
Survival of the Fittest
Damnation
Beast Within
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Demonic Tutor
These are the only non-creature auto-includes, in my opinion. Centarion and Scott's lists above do contain cards I'd strongly recommend, but scale depending on the rest of your deck (Top/Library/Vampiric dependent on your amount of shuffle/dredge, etc).
Centarion has it right in that this deck lacks raw power but is extremely flexible. It has the hallmarks of the classic Rock deck - we play beatdown against slow combo control, we play combo control against beatdown. You have lots of options to drastically shift your clock/gameplan as the game progresses (which can take opponents by surprise), and when all else fails, you grind them down with inefficient (but inevitable) recursion and value guys.
I'm another nay for the goyfs. While Mortivore is cute, it's usually dead weight. If you want to play vanilla creatures, play Lord of Extinction and Sewer Nemesis.
Mana dorks are good if you are into dedicated combo. Elsewise, just play the 2-3 mana land fetchers (STE, VE, Wood/Farhaven Elf, Yavimaya Granger/Dryad), and Oracle of Mul Daya. These ones are super value in this deck, especially when combined with Vats, Clamps, etc. I run 4 land-grabber dorks at 2-3 mana, plus Oracle and Seedguide Ash.
I also almost always win with "combo." Sometimes it's not infinite, but it almost always involves a fatty, reanimation effect, and either Jarad or Altar of Dementia. Common:
Mikaeus + Woodfall/Wickerbough + Altar of Dementia
Mikaeus + Kokusho + Altar
Lord of Extinction + Jarad
Lord of Extinction + Altar + Reanimation
Grave Pact/Butcher of Malakir + Altar/Grim Backwoods/Jarad + Beatdown
My game plan is ideally to spend the first 3 - 4 turns playing ramp and setting up value engines:
Survival/Fauna Shaman + Dredger/Genesis
Dredger + Oversold Cemetery/Genesis
Birthing Pod + 2-drop
Sylvan Library + Dredger(s)
In rare, rare circumstances, you can also do a semi-degenerate T1 Swamp, EOT Entomb Sheoldred/Vorinclex, T2 Reanimate/Animate Dead. It doesn't happen often, though.
I run 38 creatures and I think it's a very respectable (if slightly excessive) amount. I'm never at a lack of access to a creature with this count (through Survival chains, etc). However, my list is extremely creature-centric, while Centarion's is less all-in.
We are discussing how to combat GY hate as well as flyer metas right now. Riftsweeper and Battlefield Scrounger seem to be the best to resist hate. As for flyers, check posts 1106 - 1108 for some suggestions. Imho Arashi is excellent as he can get through Iona and counterspells, and has good synergy with Oversold Cemetery/Genesis. Stinkweed Imp is good too, pulling double duty as a dredger/dork. Asides from that, you don't have too many tailor-fit options. If you have trouble with aggro fliers, play some more Damnation/Fleshbag Marauder/Slum Reaper, and conditionally Bone Shredder (if it's not vs Kaalia/Sigarda). If it's still an issue, jam Silklash Spider. Another solution is to play a few flyers yourself (Drana, Bloodgift Demon, Rune-Scarred demon).
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I dont know about a video, but I would be happy to answer any questions you have about playing the deck.
What your plan is really depends on your hand, sometimes you have a bunch of tutors and want to go for combo, and sometimes you have skull clamp, eternal witness, yavimaya elder and animate dead and just grind people out.
They all do the same thing, except Umbra Stalker is black mana symbols, which could be higher or lower. And Svogthos is a land which does that.
Jarad seems OP to me because of all of these huge fatties.
I could answer this for him, I guess. It's mostly because these creatures are based only on creatures in graveyards while Sewer Nemesis and LoE are based on all cards.
On a fundamental level Splinterfright appears to be just like Sewer Nemesis, but better. However, his limit to just creatures offsets his playability a bit. I suppose if your build has a much higher ratio of creature to noncreature spells, he could be played, but early game he'll be a dead draw compared to Sewer Nemesis, who continually increases his own value. And compared to the other 4 mana drops, Sewer Nemesis is thus strictly better.
Umbra Stalker is a trap! There really isn't enough black mana symbols to consider him. For the seven-mana slot, a better graveyard-based beater would be Sutured Ghoul, because you can one-shot with Jarad's second ability.
Elephant Resurgence helps your opponents.
Svogthos could be used as a man-land but there are better choices in this deck.
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BGJumpin' JaradsGB BB Furry Rat Lady: The Deck BB UU I Don't Ever Want To Explain How Knowledge Pool Works Ever Again UU RR This Is My Suika Cosplay Lightning Bolt Deck RR WW Mangara exiles both permanents and friends RWG Marath Sunforger RWG WUBRG Cromat and Friends WUBRG
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I agree with SchizoidMan, the fact that they only count creatures makes them less good. In my build I run about 30 creatures, so they are about 1/3 as good. Also we do not have the space in the deck to devote to many vanilla fatties. I would much rather run one or two and then use reanimation or other recursion to get them back.
Grave Betrayal Seems like an all-star card, yes it says get rid of me but it seems like it has the potential to do some pretty nasty things in this deck.
Just put a Jarad Deck these posts are pretty solid,funny how I included some of your "staples" in my deck, anyway thats my 2 cents.
SchizoidMan stated it well. Fatties play well with one angle of the deck (Beatdown/Fling), but at the end of the day, vanilla is vanilla. You'd do well only to include the best ones, and I don't even think Sewer Nemesis is an auto-include. -vores of specific types are weaker as Centarion says; you'd be surprised at how often you have 15 cards in the yard, of which only 6 are creatures. Same goes with any card that only counts a certain characteristic. Also, if you have no creatures in the yard, they are dead weight.
I'd play Braids, Cabal Minion before Magus, mostly because Magus doesn't kill your problem cards anyway, and doesn't gain value on a post-wrath board. Slum Reaper is definitely second fiddle to Fleshbag for various reasons (better on Pod chain, relevant creature type, Clamp compatible, cheaper/in line with the way the deck works in 2-3 mana increments), but if you're hurting for additional copies that specific effect, he's your guy. Do keep in mind that most of our creatures are more like 'spells with legs,' so cheaper is usually better.
Grave Betrayal is pretty good if you can stick it. In my experience, cards like that don't stick, or don't help *you* stick around at the table very long It's also difficult to recur and has minimal interaction with a lot of your cards, so i'd rather just play Sheoldred.
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SchizoidMan stated it well. Fatties play well with one angle of the deck (Beatdown/Fling), but at the end of the day, vanilla is vanilla. You'd do well only to include the best ones, and I don't even think Sewer Nemesis is an auto-include. -vores of specific types are weaker as Centarion says; you'd be surprised at how often you have 15 cards in the yard, of which only 6 are creatures. Same goes with any card that only counts a certain characteristic. Also, if you have no creatures in the yard, they are dead weight.
I'd play Braids, Cabal Minion before Magus, mostly because Magus doesn't kill your problem cards anyway, and doesn't gain value on a post-wrath board. Slum Reaper is definitely second fiddle to Fleshbag for various reasons (better on Pod chain, relevant creature type, Clamp compatible, cheaper/in line with the way the deck works in 2-3 mana increments), but if you're hurting for additional copies that specific effect, he's your guy. Do keep in mind that most of our creatures are more like 'spells with legs,' so cheaper is usually better.
Grave Betrayal is pretty good if you can stick it. In my experience, cards like that don't stick, or don't help *you* stick around at the table very long It's also difficult to recur and has minimal interaction with a lot of your cards, so i'd rather just play Sheoldred.
Grave Betrayal is good, but it makes you a target almost immediately. It's a powerful card which captures the entire table's attention especially because we're the Golgari Swarm. Killing and recurring's kinda our thing.
Sheoldred can be entombed/buried alive'd early and reanimated later. Both are threats to the board but Sheoldred is easier to stick onto the board than Grave Betrayal and does not need as quick a response.
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You should run phyrexian dreadnought 12 damage for 1cc? Trigger on the stac Sac to Jarad using it self to pay its etb
i play multiplayer edh 3-5 man Pods. Nuking the table for 12 on turn 5 is pretty sick. now imagine a Ramp opening hand droping a turn 1 Sol ringMana crypt followed by turn rings of brighthearth then a turn 2 wound reflection turn 3 or 4 jarad, turn 4 or 5 dreadnought sacing it copy the sac with rings, wound reflection kicks in...GG lol
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What do you guys think of Ill-gotten gains? It's a good way to dump the stuff you need into your grave while also recurring/keeping important things. And it makes people who aren't playing graveyard builds (especially the sort who play no hand limit cards) lose a lot of cards.
I do think there is a substantial risk that you will not have one of your engines like Crucible or LftL online and then it will hit you as hard as everyone else.
Basically, when it works it will work well, but there is risk it will be dead.
I do think zig's trick with the Thug works (stack triggers to Thugs resolves first, then replace the second draw). I still dont think it is worth it. The Thug is pretty much worthless by himself, if you get the Skullclamp engine going it is really good, otherwise I would rather play any other Gravedigger effect (since it does not rely on the creature dying).
I don't like the Trike-Mikaeus combo. It's... boring, quite frankly. I even took it out from my mono-black Mikaeus deck. At least Lord of Extinction + Jaarad requires some setup (can't be done arbitrarily at any point in the game; susceptible to graveyard hate).
BBB Mikaeus, the Unhallowed BBB
UG Momir Vig, Simic Visionary UG
UB Grimgrin, Corpse-Born UB
I'm going to contend Centarion's analysis of the Thug (for the sake of discussion). He is a 2-mana creature, and this deck really works in increments of 2 and 3 mana. A lot of your action happens in instances of paying 2 and 3 (Genesis triggers, Jarad flings, ramp-elves, altar of dementia, Demonic Tutor), and being able to dredge a 2 drop to play this turn is quite valuable (for Dread Return flashback, etc). He is oftentimes Stinkweed Imp #2. The fact that his dying trigger is badly timed, mandatory, and not card advantage is mitigated by the fact that he is a sort of rattlesnake blocker. Most players understand quickly that making your creatures die often benefits you, and in this way he can ward off attackers, even if you didn't want him to die anyways.
Patch me back to my mind
I agree with your assessment that we often work in increments of 2-3 mana and like to play multiple spells/use multiple effect per turn. I disagree that it is useful to dredge Thug in order to be able to spend the last 2 mana. Outside of Skullclamp a 2 mana 1/1 is just not something I want. Even if I am for sure going to use him to chump 6+ damage and get a creature I want back on top (which is pretty much his ideal scenario) I would generally rather just have the draw. If we really wanted more repeatable creature recursion, we could just run Oversold Cemetery or Phyrexian Reclamation.
We have to remember that this guy is replacing another card in the deck, both in terms of deck space, and draws every time you dredge him. IMO he is one of the worst repeatable creature recursion tools imaginable, so I would rather have just drawn pretty much anything else instead of dredging him. The 4 card self mill is just not worth it (and if I wanted that effect I would rather just run the first Stinkweed). This card is ONLY good (defined as something I won't groan when I draw) when I have Skullclamp going, and I generally don't need much help at that point.
Scrounger sounds interesting, how much value do you get by recycling cards? The engine protection does sound appealing, does anyone have any other options for that type of effect? I may try testing that (and possibly upping my fetch count even though I hate shuffling mid game).
I REALLY like Jarad's Orders. I agree it is not great if you are using it like a Diabolic Tutor, but it is still passable. It really shines in a list running Phyrexian Delver. In that case it is both an Entomb and a tutor for your reanimation spell, worst case. Best case you already have the reanimation and get to get a target and Eternal Witness or some other pile of value stapled on a creature.
Riftsweeper is also a reactionary card to graveyard hate. Its effect is weaker, but requires less commitment. I like the Scrounger too, but he seems a bit expensive for what will be a 3/3 vanilla most of the time. Shipping non-lands and non-creatures to the bottom does seem very useful, though. I shall test it out.
I cut Jarad's Orders for a Dimir House Guard because of better interactions. I can definitely see the value of Orders, though, and its value will depend on how many good pairs you can make with it.
Re: Golgari Thug - Yeah, while I generally agree, I just wanted to provide a counterpoint for the usefulness of cheap dredgers. It's also very useful to have a creature dredger on hand for Survival of the Fittest. Dread Return is very good, by the way. It adds an extra layer of redundancy on critical turns, especially when you attempt to combo out. Stinkweed Imp is staying in my build for now, because of all the Kaalia and Sigarda in my group.
Speaking of those, here are some problem (and semi-common) cards which are difficult for us to deal with:
Sigarda is especially difficult to deal with, as she is immune to the vast majority of our removal, and few of our guys can go toe to toe with her. She's also very common. Iona is not as difficult, since we can still dredge/survival/genesis/pod into an Eternal Witness/Beast Within. Humility shuts down almost every way we have to gain advantage in the deck, and simultaneously takes away our combo and beatdown potential. It's also immune to Acidic Slime & friends.
The answer I see to most 'lockdown angels' is a creature nuke. Arashi, Sky Asunder seems ideal, as it can be retrieved through green or black tutor, and can also be used without being cast (and at instant speed). I'm still looking for more wraths stapled to creatures, though. Kagemaro, First to Suffer seems the most reliable, even though he's not always reliable. Bane of the Living seems suboptimal for his need to be unmorphed.Pestilence Demon kills our own board faster than theirs. Suggestions?
Finally, here are some interesting interactions I've discovered with the deck.
- Woodfall Primus/Mikaeus combo: You can repeatedly sacrifice in response to the Primus' ETB trigger, meaning you can infinitely mill and destroy anywhere from 1 to all noncreature permanents, if you desire.
- Wickerbough Elder has fake-persist for the purposes of Mikaeus combo.
- Sylvan Library + 3 Dredged cards means that you don't have to put any cards back.
- Recurring Oracle of Mul Daya allows you to play an extra land for each instance of the Oracle on the field.
Patch me back to my mind
I like the concept of Scrounger more than Riftsweeper since it is repeatable. Riftsweeper may be repeatable with recursion but will still cost mana. I also like that Scrounger lets you recycle stuff if you want to tutor (and does not require it to be exiled first). I guess being able to get stuff back AFTER it is hated is good, and a 5 drop is a bit slow to start protecting yourself from grave hate.
I am running both Orders and House Guard. If I had to cut a tutor though, I think I would cut Worldly before Orders. I think we have had this discussion earlier in the thread, but I don't blame you for not reading all of it
I am only running 2 reanimation spells, I should likely try Dread Return over Necromancy or Animate Dead
I have at least as many answers to Sigarda as I do to Iona. I run both Living Death and Damnation in my list, and I don't think I could survive the token agro without them. Iona is more of a problem since the only non-black way to kill creatures I currently run is Beast Within. Angel of Jubilation should not be a problem, we have tons and tons of black removal to hit it. If these things are more of a problem Arashi is probably the best answer as you suggested. I think you have hit on most of the creature-wraths that are good (at least against big fliers). If you had more of a problem with tokens I would consider Massacre Wurm, if you want repeatable anti-flier go with Silklash Spider. The problem with Silklash is of course that you probably need it to table in order to kill anything large, unless you have tons of mana. In general I don't find I need more than the Dmannation and Living Death most of the time and if I do need more than 2 wraths (plus however many times I can recur non-creatures) I am generally having problems with tokens and I use the Wurm.
Humility and Torpor Orb should not cause too much of a problem, the certainly suck for use, but they do for pretty much everyone, and we are in green and I am running Beast Within and Krosan Grip, both of which deal with them. I can also use Regrowth or tutors to find answers.
Strangle Hold is worse (since we can't tutor out) but we can try to dredge+EWit out, and Slime also works.
I think the problems you are having with Torpor and Humility are due to an over-reliance on utility creatures. Sure more creatures are good, but ~1/2 of your non-land cards is probably plenty, and more than that and creature hate starts to screw you. I like having each effect I need access to on a creature so I can recur them, but I would not run sub par creatures over good non-creatures just to up the creature count (Why I don't run Butcher of Malakir and do run Grave Pact).
All of those interactions are cool, and now that you mention it Wickerbough is another good answer to Torpor and Strangle.
Necromancy and Animate Dead are both extremely solid. I'd run Reanimate over Animate Dead, though, because it's harder to deal with, and much faster, assuming you don't have a tonne of aggro. If you want to cut one to test Dread Return, I'd suggest Animate Dead. Necromancy is just too flexible with its instant speed. Dread Return is unexciting, but very good long-term value. Also, when you try to go off, someone will invariably attempt to bounce/exile/kill one of your pieces, and you can sac it in response and flash the creature back in for 'free'. I'd consider it on par with Victimise, as this is slower and more flexible, while Victimise makes up for it with speed and raw power.
Wickerbough Elder is, in my opinion, almost good as Acidic Slime. He's a big rattlesnake, and the same total CMC, but is more flexible on the curve.
I wish there was a 4-5 CMC creature that had "XBB: All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn." Oh well, one can dream. Yeah, you are prolly right on the overreliance on creatures. I've been fairly stubborn and only run the singleton Decree of Pain as my spell-sweeper; I think I will cave and add Damnation. I need to open up a slot for Living Death too.
Patch me back to my mind
I do in fact run Reanimate and Decree of Pain. I will test Dread return over Animate Dead, I think the flexibility is probably worth it, I may also have to reconsider Victimize.
I would like to run Wickerbough, and I agree he is great, the downside is the inability to kill arbitrarily large ground creatures and the inability to hit troublesome lands. I am not sure what to cut for him. My list is very similar to the one in the OP, that was pretty much my starting point. I have made some changes since then but I think I am still within 10 or so cards.
What are the non creature auto includes. So far my list of "Must be included" is this please tell me what the other cut able slots are in the list because I really want upward of 38-40 creatures.
Survival of the fittest
Sol ring
Skull clamp
Sensei's top
Birthing pod
Vampiric tutor
Demonic tutor
Mana crypt (though mine will be cut for now as it's in oona)
Life from the loam
Are tarmogoyf, mortavore, terravore, the original lygoyf any good in this deck? I was hoping to play a significant number of fatties like this.
Are mana dorks (Birds, the half a dozen lanawar elf varients ect.) any good?
How needed is a combo kill? Do you more often kill by sacing a giant dude to jarad or combo off.
Specific card question. How strong is greater good? It seems abysmal outside of LOE (which you want to feed to Jarad) Sewer nemesis (which you want to feed to Jarad) and other goyfs (which you want to feed to Jarad)
I have a ton of flying in my meta. What is the best answer to that with this deck? Whiplash spider? Stinkweed imp? Arashi sky asunder? Hurricane?
Besides simply not overextending how do you beat crypt/spellbomb/bog? Is that the only thing you can do? Since in my meta every single GY hate card will be pointed at this deck.
Forgive me I have read a great deal of the thread but not all 70+ pages.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
I am not certain if the tutors you mentioned are actually uncuttable. Here is my list of non creature auto includes (I still advise testing, at least on line with the build on the front page to get a feel for all the cards before making serious changes):
Survival of the Fittest
Sylvan Library
Phyrexian Arena
Greater Good
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Sol Ring
Crucible of Worlds
Mimic Vat
Life from the Loam
Living Death
I would also recommend running some spot and mass removal of your choice on non-creatures (Likely Maelstrom Pulse, KGrip, Beast Within, Damnation at least). The cards above form most of our (non-creature based) engines, and our limmited methods of gaining card advantage, and the cards that can just plain win the game. I would not want to play this deck without them (or likely any GB deck).
Greater Good is excellent in this deck. It is integral to many of our engines. It is outstanding with Mimic Vat, outstanding whenever we get a recursion loop going, and it protects our guys from Mind Control effects and give us value when they die. In general you do not just feed your guys to Jarad willy nilly. Life loss is irrelevant until it is the last point. I would much rather hang onto my guy and attack with him and be ready to eat him with Greater Good than pitch him to Jarad, unless I can win on the spot or take out a threat.
I am not a huge fan of random Lurgoyfs. I like my creatures to produce value even if they get removed or swept instantly. Sometimes there is a creature that is so good that it gets a pass, but a vanilla attacker (like Tarmo) is just not what I want to be doing. Similarly, in my experience, mana dorks tend to die, this is why creature based ramp that puts lands into play is preferred.
If you have a bunch of flying in your meta I suggest at least Stinkweed Imp and Arashi the Sky Asunder. If you need more than that, or need repeatable sweeps Silklash Spider is good if you can protect it or recur it.
I have not really had a problem with grave hate. There are enough alternate plans in the deck that you can just pick another route to victory. I got hit by Identity Crisis with 20+ cards in my graveyard and still won because I managed to get a Rune-Scared Demon on my Mimic Vat and then proceeded to draw a million cards off Greater good and seal the game with Kokopuffs looping. We have a re-animator plan, and the LoE+Jarad plan, and the Jarad beatdown plan, and the combo plan, and the Goodstuff plan (with Filth to help close out games). I would avoid over extending if possible, but I would not worry if your GY gets nuked.
Sol ring
Skull clamp
Sensei's top
Birthing pod
Vampiric tutor
Demonic tutor
Mana crypt (though mine will be cut for now as it's in oona)
Life from the loam
I run all of those except the Crypt, Vampiric Tutor, and Birthing Pod, though for two of those it is because I don't own them, and for Birthing Pod because I just haven't gotten into a situation where I've felt like I needed it. I run three mana dorks, though I am considering swapping two of them out for something else, partly because they are two for ones.
I never get into a combo kill situation. Hopefully later this week I will get on here and post my personal list, but for me the win usually involves swarming with tokens or saccing something to Jarad to kill my opponents, meanwhile using things like Sheoldred to stall out my opponents for a bit.
I can't answer to some of your other questions since I haven't run those specific cards in this deck!
Damnation
Beast Within
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Demonic Tutor
These are the only non-creature auto-includes, in my opinion. Centarion and Scott's lists above do contain cards I'd strongly recommend, but scale depending on the rest of your deck (Top/Library/Vampiric dependent on your amount of shuffle/dredge, etc).
Centarion has it right in that this deck lacks raw power but is extremely flexible. It has the hallmarks of the classic Rock deck - we play beatdown against slow combo control, we play combo control against beatdown. You have lots of options to drastically shift your clock/gameplan as the game progresses (which can take opponents by surprise), and when all else fails, you grind them down with inefficient (but inevitable) recursion and value guys.
I'm another nay for the goyfs. While Mortivore is cute, it's usually dead weight. If you want to play vanilla creatures, play Lord of Extinction and Sewer Nemesis.
Mana dorks are good if you are into dedicated combo. Elsewise, just play the 2-3 mana land fetchers (STE, VE, Wood/Farhaven Elf, Yavimaya Granger/Dryad), and Oracle of Mul Daya. These ones are super value in this deck, especially when combined with Vats, Clamps, etc. I run 4 land-grabber dorks at 2-3 mana, plus Oracle and Seedguide Ash.
I also almost always win with "combo." Sometimes it's not infinite, but it almost always involves a fatty, reanimation effect, and either Jarad or Altar of Dementia. Common:
Mikaeus + Woodfall/Wickerbough + Altar of Dementia
Mikaeus + Kokusho + Altar
Lord of Extinction + Jarad
Lord of Extinction + Altar + Reanimation
Grave Pact/Butcher of Malakir + Altar/Grim Backwoods/Jarad + Beatdown
My game plan is ideally to spend the first 3 - 4 turns playing ramp and setting up value engines:
Survival/Fauna Shaman + Dredger/Genesis
Dredger + Oversold Cemetery/Genesis
Birthing Pod + 2-drop
Sylvan Library + Dredger(s)
In rare, rare circumstances, you can also do a semi-degenerate T1 Swamp, EOT Entomb Sheoldred/Vorinclex, T2 Reanimate/Animate Dead. It doesn't happen often, though.
I run 38 creatures and I think it's a very respectable (if slightly excessive) amount. I'm never at a lack of access to a creature with this count (through Survival chains, etc). However, my list is extremely creature-centric, while Centarion's is less all-in.
We are discussing how to combat GY hate as well as flyer metas right now. Riftsweeper and Battlefield Scrounger seem to be the best to resist hate. As for flyers, check posts 1106 - 1108 for some suggestions. Imho Arashi is excellent as he can get through Iona and counterspells, and has good synergy with Oversold Cemetery/Genesis. Stinkweed Imp is good too, pulling double duty as a dredger/dork. Asides from that, you don't have too many tailor-fit options. If you have trouble with aggro fliers, play some more Damnation/Fleshbag Marauder/Slum Reaper, and conditionally Bone Shredder (if it's not vs Kaalia/Sigarda). If it's still an issue, jam Silklash Spider. Another solution is to play a few flyers yourself (Drana, Bloodgift Demon, Rune-Scarred demon).
Patch me back to my mind
What your plan is really depends on your hand, sometimes you have a bunch of tutors and want to go for combo, and sometimes you have skull clamp, eternal witness, yavimaya elder and animate dead and just grind people out.
Both of them seem as good or better than fleshbag why aren't you playing either?
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Magus of the Abyss is a fine card, but it does not get around shroud or indestructible and does not have any effect if they remove it right away.
In your combo section on the first post you have Lord of Extinction and Sewer Nemisis but you don't have have:
or...on a semi different note
They all do the same thing, except Umbra Stalker is black mana symbols, which could be higher or lower. And Svogthos is a land which does that.
Jarad seems OP to me because of all of these huge fatties.
GRBXira ArienGRBXIRA ThreadGRB(White Border Cards Only)GRB
RUGRiku of Two RefelctionsRUGRIKU ThreadRUG(Combo-Infinite Turns)RUG
WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBGKARADOR ThreadWBG(Creature toolbox recursion)WBG
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB(Artifact Related Only)WUB
BXiahou Dun, the One-EyedB(Proletariat-U/C Only)B
WUBRGHorde of NotionsWUBRG(New Framed Cards Only)WUBRG
I could answer this for him, I guess. It's mostly because these creatures are based only on creatures in graveyards while Sewer Nemesis and LoE are based on all cards.
On a fundamental level Splinterfright appears to be just like Sewer Nemesis, but better. However, his limit to just creatures offsets his playability a bit. I suppose if your build has a much higher ratio of creature to noncreature spells, he could be played, but early game he'll be a dead draw compared to Sewer Nemesis, who continually increases his own value. And compared to the other 4 mana drops, Sewer Nemesis is thus strictly better.
Umbra Stalker is a trap! There really isn't enough black mana symbols to consider him. For the seven-mana slot, a better graveyard-based beater would be Sutured Ghoul, because you can one-shot with Jarad's second ability.
Elephant Resurgence helps your opponents.
Svogthos could be used as a man-land but there are better choices in this deck.
BG Jumpin' JaradsGB
BB Furry Rat Lady: The Deck BB
UU I Don't Ever Want To Explain How Knowledge Pool Works Ever Again UU
RR This Is My Suika Cosplay Lightning Bolt Deck RR
WW Mangara exiles both permanents and friends
RWG Marath Sunforger RWG
WUBRG Cromat and Friends WUBRG
--
BG Savra, Rocking Attrition (retired) GB
BB">Shauku, Envoy of the End (retired) BB
BU Wrexial, the Tentacled H beast(retired)UB
BB Endrek Sahr, Master Commander (retired )BB
UU [PRIMER] Talrand's Terrible Tempo Terror Teatime (retired) UU
UBW Senator Trio - Three Heads Are Better Than One (retired) UBW
BB MONSTRUAL BLEEDING EREBOS SADISM (retired) BB
Just put a Jarad Deck these posts are pretty solid,funny how I included some of your "staples" in my deck, anyway thats my 2 cents.
SchizoidMan stated it well. Fatties play well with one angle of the deck (Beatdown/Fling), but at the end of the day, vanilla is vanilla. You'd do well only to include the best ones, and I don't even think Sewer Nemesis is an auto-include. -vores of specific types are weaker as Centarion says; you'd be surprised at how often you have 15 cards in the yard, of which only 6 are creatures. Same goes with any card that only counts a certain characteristic. Also, if you have no creatures in the yard, they are dead weight.
I'd play Braids, Cabal Minion before Magus, mostly because Magus doesn't kill your problem cards anyway, and doesn't gain value on a post-wrath board. Slum Reaper is definitely second fiddle to Fleshbag for various reasons (better on Pod chain, relevant creature type, Clamp compatible, cheaper/in line with the way the deck works in 2-3 mana increments), but if you're hurting for additional copies that specific effect, he's your guy. Do keep in mind that most of our creatures are more like 'spells with legs,' so cheaper is usually better.
Grave Betrayal is pretty good if you can stick it. In my experience, cards like that don't stick, or don't help *you* stick around at the table very long It's also difficult to recur and has minimal interaction with a lot of your cards, so i'd rather just play Sheoldred.
Patch me back to my mind
Grave Betrayal is good, but it makes you a target almost immediately. It's a powerful card which captures the entire table's attention especially because we're the Golgari Swarm. Killing and recurring's kinda our thing.
Sheoldred can be entombed/buried alive'd early and reanimated later. Both are threats to the board but Sheoldred is easier to stick onto the board than Grave Betrayal and does not need as quick a response.
BG Jumpin' JaradsGB
BB Furry Rat Lady: The Deck BB
UU I Don't Ever Want To Explain How Knowledge Pool Works Ever Again UU
RR This Is My Suika Cosplay Lightning Bolt Deck RR
WW Mangara exiles both permanents and friends
RWG Marath Sunforger RWG
WUBRG Cromat and Friends WUBRG
--
BG Savra, Rocking Attrition (retired) GB
BB">Shauku, Envoy of the End (retired) BB
BU Wrexial, the Tentacled H beast(retired)UB
BB Endrek Sahr, Master Commander (retired )BB
UU [PRIMER] Talrand's Terrible Tempo Terror Teatime (retired) UU
UBW Senator Trio - Three Heads Are Better Than One (retired) UBW
BB MONSTRUAL BLEEDING EREBOS SADISM (retired) BB
i play multiplayer edh 3-5 man Pods. Nuking the table for 12 on turn 5 is pretty sick. now imagine a Ramp opening hand droping a turn 1 Sol ring Mana crypt followed by turn rings of brighthearth then a turn 2 wound reflection turn 3 or 4 jarad, turn 4 or 5 dreadnought sacing it copy the sac with rings, wound reflection kicks in...GG lol