I'm with most of your assessments. I'm still not convinced on Clique, as I haven't liked any other 3 drop evasive creature. I even cut Kira because I found he came out too late and, well, people just don't play that much targeted removal.
On the negatives, I'll still put in a strong word for Lotus Cobra. Maybe you weren't playing with Exploration, 7 fetch lands, Skyshroud Ranger, and Elvish Pioneer. But I do believe that with a certain critical mass, the Lotus Cobra becomes exceptionally good.
I kind of like the Survival idea but I wonder if that slot would be better spent on a counter of some sort. Something to counter the tuck effect. I mean, even Disrupt would usually do the trick, and it costs 1 mana less and gives you a card.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I don't see how playing spiketail or cursecatcher are good? Don't you want your creatures to stick around? But I don't play the all-in style Edric. There is just no way suicide Edric would be competitive even against the simple ramp and play big stuff decks let alone tuned decks.
It takes forever to kill MULTIPLE players with 1/1's even if they have evasion. As mentioned by another poster, Avenger of Zendikar makes an army equal to ours in one shot (and outclasses ours in a few landfall triggers). 3 in 5 decks in my meta are green/x.
You have no idea how good this deck is. I literally rolled over 5 man tables with it. Spiketail and Cursecatcher are good because nearly all wrath effects are sorceries and people want to play them as soon as they can. Spiketail makes them cast it one turn later, which in turn means you draw another 4 to 6 cards (and potentially draw a hard counter).
It's not hard to kill the whole table with 1/1s. Eventually you'll draw one of Beastmaster's Ascension, Joraga Warcaller, or Triumph of the Horde. Or Fauna Shaman for Warcaller. Or Mind over Matter + Groundskeeper. Or just an Eldrazi Monument.
The most typical way to end the game is to prowl a Notorious Throng. It easily puts 10 to 20 creatures into play. With an extra turn, another 20 damage, and another 20 cards, you are guaranteed a win. The odds of getting another time walk is really high, and you can counter anything you need.
Once the army is online, people die in maybe 2 turns. You'll have to try the deck out to see though.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I agree with most of the things above, including the counterspell options and most of ISB's card assessments. I got in a few more games and this deck, even with my very budget MTGO version, is blazing fast. Many games I had an overwhelming board position by around turn 5, I even had a turn 6 where I had enough mana to drop Beastmaster Ascension, swing in for 67 damage drawing 11 cards and still had enough mana to prowl out Notorious Throng netting 67 6/6 fliers :P. With the addition of more fast mana this deck is probably even more absurd. So far I'm pretty happy with Memnite as he can help you get some very busted opening draws. I've also added in Wirewood Symbiote and he's been great in the handful of games I saw him simply as a cheap way to protect Edric that can still swing in to draw cards. Unified Will is fantastic, if this isn't a hard counter you're probably way behind anyways and Negate has also been very good for me. Costing only 1 blue mana has been really important for both of these so I'm thinking Spell Pierce is probably very good. Mana Leak is another card I'm playing online and it has yet to fail. One thing that concerns me is the black decks tutoring up Decree of Pain. Unless we get a fast enough draw they'll just cycle it and wreck us so I may have to reconsider Voidslime for this role.
EDIT: As far as more fixing goes this deck might even be fast enough for Tarnished Citadel.
Has anyone else been considering cutting the manlands? I find them slowing me down and I have yet to activate them. Colorless mana is just tough to take advantage of in this decklist.
I also think I might try the Wirewood Symbiote as a spot removal protection for Edric I hadn't really thought of it as protection for him as much as ways to get tons of mana off of mana dorks.
EDIT: so... has anyone actually used any of their 6+ mana guys? I am still running Kamahl and Avenger but I sort of wonder if I should be. If the game gets to that stage of the game I am probably in trouble for other reasons.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
6+ mana guys? I'm not even playing 4 mana guys! And I only have something like four guys at 3 mana. Everything else is 1 and 2. I can't imagine how something like Primeval Titan would help a deck like this.
The Symbiote is indeed amazing.
As far as manlands go, I'm split. I didn't have any manlands for a long time. Then I decided to add the blinkmoth ones because they fly and are cheap to activate. The real question is how often you activate them, which isn't that much. But I also haven't been burned by their colorless mana that much either. If I start playing more counters, I could see myself activating bl/inkmoth nexus more often though. I currently have 9 in the deck (including Spiketail and Cursecatcher), but could see going up to 10 for Negate or maybe even 11 for Mana Leak.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I'm down to just Glen Elendra Archmage, Sower of Temptation and Wonder as my curve toppers. I had Kamahl in my hand a couple times and he just costs way too much mana for what he does so I swapped him for Triumph of the Hordes. Avenger of Zendikar also just costs too much, you never want to see him early on and by the time he matters you should have already won or lost. You get way too much value out of 1 drops to get much use out of the expensive guys.
That was what I was sort of thinking. Kamahl and Avenger are out, they are just too slow. Thanks for the input on them I think I will cut them as well.
I think I will cut the inkmoth nexus at least and bring it back to just Dryad Arbor and Blinkmoth Nexus. I love the option to GSZ for 0 mana on turn 1 for a creature so the Dryad gets to stay.
Also has anyone felt that they needed Reliquary Tower in here? I have managed to be able to cycle cards quickly enough that I haven't ever felt that I need it. I still have it in my list though but I am considering cutting it due to the whole colorless mana deal and that I just don't need the max handsize deal.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I've also been thinking Reliquary Tower is pretty weak. The only time I like it is when I'm saving up for a big Turbulent Dreams before combat. When I don't have the Tower in play I just end up discarding lands or extra dorks so it isn't much of a problem. Right now I'm down to just Blinkmoth Nexus for manlands, it's decent but it doesn't get activated much.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
How has Triumph of the Hordes payed off for you guys? I sort of wonder if I might be better off with an Overrun varrient or another extra turn effect such as Walk the Aeons. I guess I just dont like how you have to do all of your killing in that one frame whereas dealing regular damage is good progress regardless of how much you can hit for.
Any thoughts?
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I've only drawn it so far when I'd already won anyways. Seems worse than Beastmaster Ascension but that card is just absurd. Walk the Aeons actually seems very interesting, the buyback is actually manageable enough that it could give you multiple turns in a row and you have things like Exploration to allow for extra land drops. Getting multiple turns in a row usually ends in victory. I'll pick it up on MTGO since I don't have a Time Warp.
I know they are not super powerfull, but they look they cold have TONS of synergy with this deck. Im not sure if someone already suggested.
Of the 2 I think Tangleroot would be more appropriate. Glimpse of Nature can draw some cards but not to the point where the deck can function properly without Edric and with Edric in play the deck is already drawing a bunch. Tangleroot as a ramp card is interesting but ultimately I think it costs a little too much mana and is competing for a very tight 3cc slot. I could be wrong though, it does have good synergy with the deck and being able to vomit out 1cc green dudes every time you draw a bunch of cards is nice.
I agree with donald, if for some reason you have a bunch of guys you intend to drop into play then obviously Edric is working already and you have really good card draw as is. Thus you shouldnt need Glimpse of nature.
And as cool as Tangleroot is it would need to cost like 0-1 mana for us to really be able to afford to use it. The curve of this deck is so outragious and spells that cost more than 1-2 really hurt. I might even need to reassess a lot of my noncreature spells in the list as to make this deck really viable I think I need to cut some costs yet.
I think I might end up following your lead and increase my counterspells by a bit. Mana Leak is sounding promising as another add. Perhaps I will cut Opposition for it as it seems a bit too slow to matter whereas countering the wrath is needed.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The big problem with opposition is that it's cost is tapping a guy, which is something you'd rather do to attack or generate a ton of mana. Untapped guys are never your surplus resource. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of Mind Over Matter, as it uses cards as a surplus resource, and that's definitely true of this deck.
I think of countering a Wrath effect like this. Every counterspell has "Draw X cards, where X is the number of creatures you control." written at the bottom. Because the counter lets you survive to draw another fat grip. Seriously though, if you just get out 3 or 4 creatures, the best course of action is just to sit back on counter magic to guarantee they stay in play. Every time I've had a counterspell in my hand but tapped out for something else, I've regretted it.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I've only played Opposition a couples times, the first it didn't do much and the second time I had pretty much won the game by that point though it did make good use of guys I played that turn. It wasn't a card I considered for cutting but thinking back it really hasn't done much. Earthcraft is definitely a keeper though since it costs half as much and lets you play 1 drops for free.
I wanted to try Earthcraft but I couldn't find space for it. Eventually it got cut on the same grounds-- You don't want to tap guys for mana when you could just tap to attack.
Do you find you have trouble getting enough mana to play your stuff? I'm trying to figure out if this is legitimately better than a mox, exploration, or even Lotus Petal. The card needs to generate more than 2 mana before it's good, and I suspect that would take at least 2 turns, probably 3 (since you're down 2 mana just casting it).
What type of card would you most want to cut to fit in earthcraft-- a creature, a counter, a land, or a non-land mana development card?
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I don't expect to get much value out of it the turn it is cast but I find myself not being able to dump weenies on the table because of how important it is to hold up counterspell mana. Once Earthcraft is in play all the 1 drops suddenly cost 0 and sometimes everyone will have a 2/2 or bigger so you can hold back guys like Cursecatcher and Edric and still get value out of them. I'd much rather swing with guys every turn but sometimes that just isn't possible. It should take the place of a non-land mana developement card though I don't think it is very comparable to something like the moxes or Lotus Petal. It's more similar to Sword of Feast and Famine or Nature's Will in that it ramps you after your initial investment instead being free mana accel. Though now that our curve is so obnoxiously small maybe the fast mana is the way to go.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I guess the question is do we really need anything outside of little dorks, counterspells, a few finishers and cheap mana accel to get Edric out early? I'll have to play around with the list when I get home and I might give it a run without any card that doesn't fall into one of these categories.
EDIT: Outside of Tangle Wire, Skullclamp and Lightning Greeves nothing looks really vital. Even Aether Vial doesn't seem so exciting when most of our creatures cost 1 mana. Flashing in Willow Dryad for free is kind of lame.
I cut Aether Vial because it doesn't tap for U to cast counterspells. I cut Skullclamp because the last thing I want to do is spend mana to kill guys and draw cards, when I could just not spend mana to draw cards instead. I suppose it can bootstrap you if you can't keep Edric in play for some reasons, but I suggest that any counterspell would be better than Skullclamp in that situation.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
I kind of like having a backup plan but I think you're right that without Edric in play Skullclamp probably won't win us the game since it takes so much longer to build up a sizable army so it isn't a good backup plan. Since Tangle Wire isn't online yet and won't be for some time that really only leaves me with Greaves eating up a deck slot if I remove everything else.
If you were to take out Skullclamp, i'd add the "new lighting greaves" I can see a huge problem if someone has a way to deal with Edric early in the game. The deck would run out of fuel very fast.
Also, i see your main flavor is Foreswalk. Do you have back up ways to make "Foreswalk" relevant when is not?...kinda like Yavimaya Dryad
Also, what about Vine Dryad for a Forestwalk? ...You draw so many cards that the alternative cost would be nothing.
Oh, one more thing:
For this deck, it think Survival of the Fittest would be better than Fauna Shamman. Honestly, i don't like her much in this deck.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
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On the negatives, I'll still put in a strong word for Lotus Cobra. Maybe you weren't playing with Exploration, 7 fetch lands, Skyshroud Ranger, and Elvish Pioneer. But I do believe that with a certain critical mass, the Lotus Cobra becomes exceptionally good.
I kind of like the Survival idea but I wonder if that slot would be better spent on a counter of some sort. Something to counter the tuck effect. I mean, even Disrupt would usually do the trick, and it costs 1 mana less and gives you a card.
It takes forever to kill MULTIPLE players with 1/1's even if they have evasion. As mentioned by another poster, Avenger of Zendikar makes an army equal to ours in one shot (and outclasses ours in a few landfall triggers). 3 in 5 decks in my meta are green/x.
It's not hard to kill the whole table with 1/1s. Eventually you'll draw one of Beastmaster's Ascension, Joraga Warcaller, or Triumph of the Horde. Or Fauna Shaman for Warcaller. Or Mind over Matter + Groundskeeper. Or just an Eldrazi Monument.
The most typical way to end the game is to prowl a Notorious Throng. It easily puts 10 to 20 creatures into play. With an extra turn, another 20 damage, and another 20 cards, you are guaranteed a win. The odds of getting another time walk is really high, and you can counter anything you need.
Once the army is online, people die in maybe 2 turns. You'll have to try the deck out to see though.
EDIT: As far as more fixing goes this deck might even be fast enough for Tarnished Citadel.
I also think I might try the Wirewood Symbiote as a spot removal protection for Edric I hadn't really thought of it as protection for him as much as ways to get tons of mana off of mana dorks.
EDIT: so... has anyone actually used any of their 6+ mana guys? I am still running Kamahl and Avenger but I sort of wonder if I should be. If the game gets to that stage of the game I am probably in trouble for other reasons.
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The Symbiote is indeed amazing.
As far as manlands go, I'm split. I didn't have any manlands for a long time. Then I decided to add the blinkmoth ones because they fly and are cheap to activate. The real question is how often you activate them, which isn't that much. But I also haven't been burned by their colorless mana that much either. If I start playing more counters, I could see myself activating bl/inkmoth nexus more often though. I currently have 9 in the deck (including Spiketail and Cursecatcher), but could see going up to 10 for Negate or maybe even 11 for Mana Leak.
I think I will cut the inkmoth nexus at least and bring it back to just Dryad Arbor and Blinkmoth Nexus. I love the option to GSZ for 0 mana on turn 1 for a creature so the Dryad gets to stay.
Also has anyone felt that they needed Reliquary Tower in here? I have managed to be able to cycle cards quickly enough that I haven't ever felt that I need it. I still have it in my list though but I am considering cutting it due to the whole colorless mana deal and that I just don't need the max handsize deal.
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Any thoughts?
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Edric was taking extra turns with over 60 fairie tokens.
How about:
I know they are not super powerfull, but they look they cold have TONS of synergy with this deck. Im not sure if someone already suggested.
Of the 2 I think Tangleroot would be more appropriate. Glimpse of Nature can draw some cards but not to the point where the deck can function properly without Edric and with Edric in play the deck is already drawing a bunch. Tangleroot as a ramp card is interesting but ultimately I think it costs a little too much mana and is competing for a very tight 3cc slot. I could be wrong though, it does have good synergy with the deck and being able to vomit out 1cc green dudes every time you draw a bunch of cards is nice.
And as cool as Tangleroot is it would need to cost like 0-1 mana for us to really be able to afford to use it. The curve of this deck is so outragious and spells that cost more than 1-2 really hurt. I might even need to reassess a lot of my noncreature spells in the list as to make this deck really viable I think I need to cut some costs yet.
I think I might end up following your lead and increase my counterspells by a bit. Mana Leak is sounding promising as another add. Perhaps I will cut Opposition for it as it seems a bit too slow to matter whereas countering the wrath is needed.
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I think of countering a Wrath effect like this. Every counterspell has "Draw X cards, where X is the number of creatures you control." written at the bottom. Because the counter lets you survive to draw another fat grip. Seriously though, if you just get out 3 or 4 creatures, the best course of action is just to sit back on counter magic to guarantee they stay in play. Every time I've had a counterspell in my hand but tapped out for something else, I've regretted it.
Do you find you have trouble getting enough mana to play your stuff? I'm trying to figure out if this is legitimately better than a mox, exploration, or even Lotus Petal. The card needs to generate more than 2 mana before it's good, and I suspect that would take at least 2 turns, probably 3 (since you're down 2 mana just casting it).
What type of card would you most want to cut to fit in earthcraft-- a creature, a counter, a land, or a non-land mana development card?
EDIT: Outside of Tangle Wire, Skullclamp and Lightning Greeves nothing looks really vital. Even Aether Vial doesn't seem so exciting when most of our creatures cost 1 mana. Flashing in Willow Dryad for free is kind of lame.
Also, i see your main flavor is Foreswalk. Do you have back up ways to make "Foreswalk" relevant when is not?...kinda like Yavimaya Dryad
Also, what about Vine Dryad for a Forestwalk? ...You draw so many cards that the alternative cost would be nothing.
Oh, one more thing:
For this deck, it think Survival of the Fittest would be better than Fauna Shamman. Honestly, i don't like her much in this deck.