I saw it but my Commander already draws a card for every creature I attack with so I'm gonna pass. Plus for our purposes it costs basically a billion mana.
He'd be fine in a more midrange build I think, definitely an improvement on Lorescale Coatl. Squid tokens are sweet. In this build though it costs way too much.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
The problem with Evacuation is mana cost and how difficult it is to access. Counterspells offer a cheap redundant way to deal with sweepers and don't require me to replay my board.
Reliquary Tower is quite bad in this deck. Colorless mana is often useless so it will quite often be worse than Spellbook. Also the card quality in the deck is extremely low. If I'm having to discard lands and Flying Men type creatures that's fine, those aren't good cards anyways and I get to keep my best 7 every time which is all I need. It's fine vs. Jin-Gitaxias but if my opponent's are getting Jin in play I've probably already lost. Plus I think my only tutor for it is Crop Rotation or Mystical Tutor into Crop Rotation so if I actually do need it I probably won't have it.
Burgeoning is worse than Exploration since you can't play the land during your turn. Also I'm discarding down to 0-1 land almost every turn anyways so I'm often not even playing many lands with Burgeoning. I don't run Sunder though it's a decent card.
Twincast is nice but I'd rather save mana up for a Counterspell. You'll also need to cast Time Warp, retain priority and cast Twincast (unless you gamble and hope someone has a response) so if someone has a counterspell you get blown out since they'll just counter your Time Warp.
This deck is built around redundancy so recurring cards is not that important. If you want to try the deck out I'd encourage you to build it card for card and make small adjustments. What the deck really needs is more Triton Shorestalkers.
I've been playing and loving this exact decklist for a while now, but my meta is just my friends and I, and I've realized Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, and Erayo are just making things not fun for the rest of the table. Would you recommend anything to replace them with? Maybe just some more landwalkers like Grayscaled Gharial or Willow Dryad for more redundancy? Or maybe additional wincons (e.g. Triumph of the Horde)
I've been playing and loving this exact decklist for a while now, but my meta is just my friends and I, and I've realized Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, and Erayo are just making things not fun for the rest of the table. Would you recommend anything to replace them with? Maybe just some more landwalkers like Grayscaled Gharial or Willow Dryad for more redundancy? Or maybe additional wincons (e.g. Triumph of the Horde)
I think you're on the right path but it depends on you group. If it's just those specific cards causing a problem then removing them for the cards you suggested is fine. Fizzling with this deck usually leaves you with a good amount of mana and a hand full of counters anyways.
Also what are your thoughts on Envelop, Spell Syphon, and Swan Song? I noticed they aren't in your list. I feel like most of the big things I care about are Sorceries (i.e. board wipes), so Envelop is often an all-star, but it is a tad narrow. Spell Syphon is usually at least a Mana Leak, but I guess there are times when it's a Force Spike for 2. Swan Song is great but giving any opponent a blocker is obviously not what we want to be doing, but I guess that depends on who's getting the blocker/how many people are at your table. I have a playgroup of like 5, so one guy having a flyer is usually fine with 4 other people to attack. But all three are kind of flex cards for me
I might also cut Daze if I'm also cutting Winter Orb/Tangle Wire/Erayo. I feel like it's substantially worse when I'm not choking people's resources.
Also what are your thoughts on Envelop, Spell Syphon, and Swan Song? I noticed they aren't in your list. I feel like most of the big things I care about are Sorceries (i.e. board wipes), so Envelop is often an all-star, but it is a tad narrow. Spell Syphon is usually at least a Mana Leak, but I guess there are times when it's a Force Spike for 2. Swan Song is great but giving any opponent a blocker is obviously not what we want to be doing, but I guess that depends on who's getting the blocker/how many people are at your table. I have a playgroup of like 5, so one guy having a flyer is usually fine with 4 other people to attack. But all three are kind of flex cards for me
I might also cut Daze if I'm also cutting Winter Orb/Tangle Wire/Erayo. I feel like it's substantially worse when I'm not choking people's resources.
I've personally been playing envelop and I like it a lot. The only issue I have with swan song is that it gives them a flying creature to block with so it makes me unable to attack them profitably since the 2/2 is usually bigger than my creatures. As I said, I'd rather play miscalculation than spell syphon because at least I can cycle it if I have to.
I can't see daze being worth it when there are better hard counters like deprive.
Also what are your thoughts on Envelop, Spell Syphon, and Swan Song? I noticed they aren't in your list. I feel like most of the big things I care about are Sorceries (i.e. board wipes), so Envelop is often an all-star, but it is a tad narrow. Spell Syphon is usually at least a Mana Leak, but I guess there are times when it's a Force Spike for 2. Swan Song is great but giving any opponent a blocker is obviously not what we want to be doing, but I guess that depends on who's getting the blocker/how many people are at your table. I have a playgroup of like 5, so one guy having a flyer is usually fine with 4 other people to attack. But all three are kind of flex cards for me
I might also cut Daze if I'm also cutting Winter Orb/Tangle Wire/Erayo. I feel like it's substantially worse when I'm not choking people's resources.
I haven't tried any of those spells but I like Envelop the most. Spell Syphon I'd have try, I'm not sure if it's better than Miscalculation or not but it might turn out to be good. Abjure is another option people have tried though I don't like killing my own dudes. The deck has been slowly moving away from landwalkers as more fliers have been getting printed but if you have a bigger group Swan Song might be fine.
Daze is one of the weaker counters but it lets you tap out for Edric turn 2 or 3 and still be able to protect him. There just aren't many free counters available but I understand if you want to remove it as it gets progressively worse as the game goes on.
I don't know if you have tried Prophet of Kruphix but that has won me games. It helps to keep countermagic up, can be tutored with worldly tutor or GSZ, and is good for playing lots of creatures at opportune times.
Thanks for the decklist and guide though, it really helped me make a budget version of the deck.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Like my signature? Want one made the way you want it? PM me and I'll see what I can do.
I don't know if you have tried Prophet of Kruphix but that has won me games. It helps to keep countermagic up, can be tutored with worldly tutor or GSZ, and is good for playing lots of creatures at opportune times.
Thanks for the decklist and guide though, it really helped me make a budget version of the deck.
I've thought about it but never tried it out. Would be nice to have a GSZ target that can potentially win the game but I don't think the effect is as good as an extra turn. The combat step is very important and you don't get any extra with Prophet.
Ok with the recent banning Erayo banned where might you go with this? You could just add back in a small landwalker or another flier - there are a few that have been cut as it has moved away from landwalkers towards fliers (and they have printed other good fliers). You could add another counterspell, there are numerous ones to chose from or you could add another kill condition in terms of something like Triumph of the Hordes. With this semi-lock/slowdown card gone, maybe you would consider adding more lategame cards - I don't think it should go that way, but you never know.
Ok with the recent banning Erayo banned where might you go with this?
A dark corner where I can cry tears of sadness.
Quote from Beralt »
You could just add back in a small landwalker or another flier - there are a few that have been cut as it has moved away from landwalkers towards fliers (and they have printed other good fliers). You could add another counterspell, there are numerous ones to chose from or you could add another kill condition in terms of something like Triumph of the Hordes. With this semi-lock/slowdown card gone, maybe you would consider adding more lategame cards - I don't think it should go that way, but you never know.
Opinions?
The only other lockdownish card that could fill that slot I can think of is Null Rod so I might throw that back in. Winter Orb is a good replacement if you don't run it already. A landwalker or counter would be fine too, I've wanted to try Spell Syphon out for awhile now. I don't like adding in another win condition because I feel I'm in a good spot where I'm at. Even fizzling is often just delaying the inevitable.
Too bad the deck lost a random free win card but at least it wasn't Gaea's Cradle. The biggest blow was done to double Edric 2HG. Less trolling for me and moxnix on MTGO
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
The planeswalkers have synergy with the extra turn cards which is nice but I don't feel any of them are worth the mana cost. Tamiyo costs the same as a Time Warp and that will typically win the game or set up a win. While she'll also draw a lot of cards consistently I don't actually need to draw any more cards, Edric provides enough by himself and card draw has less value in this deck than in others. Your typically commander deck is drawing powerful spells hoping to set up some strong game altering synergies, I'm drawing land and Zephyr Sprites. I would probably be more inclined to play Keep Watch if I was interested in adding more draw to the deck. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is the cheapest option but even as a very easy flip the flashback ability isn't that useful since I could be running Noxious Revival instead which I can cast for free. Two mana is actually a lot for this deck.
Chalice of the Void does seem pretty unbeatable and I'll add it to the list. Good catch!
For starters, let me just say that I'm a big fan of this deck. I haven't played much commander in the last few years, but I want to do so again, and this is one of the decks I want to play.
I've started testing your decklist, and have a few questions/comments:
- Why aren't you running Coastal Piracy and Bident of Thassa?
Given that the deck hinges entirely on drawing cards off of attacking creatures, having occasional substitutes for when Edric gets removed seems like a good idea (both are cheaper than recasting Edric even the first time around, and much better against spot removal).
- I appreciate the fact that the deck needs a critical mass of 1-drops, but I don't think it needs to be so exclusive as your current deck list is.
Namely, I think Kira, Great Glass Spinner and Vendilion Clique are almost essential, the former as additional protection for Edric, and the latter as a preemptive solution for mass-removal (it can deal with otherwise unbeatable cards such as Supreme Verdict, although I realize it's not exactly a budget option).
- Given how almost all the cards you dread are sorceries, I would consider running Envelop, even though it is a bit narrow.
- I would also consider running Personal Tutor as an additional way of getting Notorious Throng, which is the deck's most powerful play.
- Another card I think merits consideration is Simic Charm, as it is pretty versatile and all its modes seem potentially useful in this deck.
Glad you like the deck, I’ve had it built for a few years and still enjoying bringing it out when I want a quicker game or just feel like punishing all the control decks in my meta. Many of the cards you mentioned I’ve tried out in the past but they didn’t end up staying in the deck.
Coastal Piracy/Bident of Thassa – Some of us ran Coastal Piracy when we first built the deck (Bident of Thassa wasn’t printed yet) thinking that redundancy would be useful but without tutors you can’t get it reliably when you would need it. It was also very poor in the opening hand which is a pretty big downside since it cuts into the critical mass of cards we need to get started. It seems good in theory but did not play out very well.
Kira, Great-Glass Spinner – Kira was tested heavily in the beginning but was unfortunately a bit too expensive. For more shroud I would recommend running Worldly Tutor so you can tutor for Sylvan Safekeeper as the cheapest option or give Plaxmanta a shot since he’s actually pretty solid. Dense Foliage is another option. It’s noteworthy that Safekeeper and Plaxmanta are still fine if you don’t need shroud whereas Kira is quite bad.
Vendilion Clique – This is an interesting option and I don’t recall if I ever tried it out or not. We really don’t have much use for silver bullets without any tutors though and it does cut into the critical mass of cards we need to get started. I just accept that Supreme Verdict is a rough card for us to deal with and I think adding in answers is actually detrimental to us since it slows the deck down which gives them more time to find and cast it. It’s actually conceivable for us to kill them before they get to 4 mana and there are some other answers so it’s not an auto lose and it is a gold card so there’s only so many decks that can run it. I do have a Vendilion Clique so it’s not a budget issue.
Envelop – This card has seen quite a bit of discussion and iirc ISBPathfinder was the one that brought it up. I personally am not a big fan as it doesn’t stop most spot removal but it’s certainly a viable option and I’m sure in some metas is quite good. Likely would include Force Spike first though since it will also stop sweepers pretty well as they will usually need to be cast on curve while being a little more flexible with it’s targets.
Simic Charm – It’s a neat card and I agree all the modes can be useful. I feel that shroud is the most useful mode however and I would prefer to run Plaxmanta again as he better supports what the rest of the deck is trying to do even though he has less utility overall.
I would advise giving some of these cards a shot if you want to try them though they could be quite good for you. Early on in my testing I like to have 2-3 flex slots that I swap cards in and out to try them out while still keeping the deck reasonably intact. My testing has been done exclusively on MTGO and in my own playgroup so your results may be different from mine.
Donald, I see you're still not running Wrap in Vigor.
I would recommend it. It makes you live through some wraths, Volcanic Fallout, Dreadbore, and most red wraths/removal, and about half of black's removals. You can think of it as another counterspell. If need be, you can even use it offensively to swing into someone with a boardstate if your landwalkers aren't active, though this is very rare.
I run Wrap in Vigor to much success. It helps your creatures survive any mass removal / damage spell except for Wrath of God and Damnation. I also run Simic Charm and some counterspells to much success as well in the deck.
My YouTube Channel: The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
I run Wrap in Vigor to much success. It helps your creatures survive any mass removal / damage spell except for Wrath of God and Damnation. I also run Simic Charm and some counterspells to much success as well in the deck.
Donald, I see you're still not running Wrap in Vigor.
I would recommend it. It makes you live through some wraths, Volcanic Fallout, Dreadbore, and most red wraths/removal, and about half of black's removals. You can think of it as another counterspell. If need be, you can even use it offensively to swing into someone with a boardstate if your landwalkers aren't active, though this is very rare.
Hey bob! I’ve looked at that card many times but for some reason I thought it cost 2G. Looking at it as a counterspell is a good analogy, I never liked Caller of the Claw when I tried it as sweeper protection but that doesn’t save Edric AND costs 3 so this could definitely be a nice addition. That it’s green is actually a huge plus in my book because we’re often unable to use green mana at instant speed very efficiently. Certainly worth another look and I’ll make sure I add it in when I get home for some test runs. Unfortunately drafting Legacy cube is consuming all my available MTGO time so I probably won’t be able to try it out for a couple weeks.
@Morningstar81 – Also sorry I skipped over Personal Tutor. It’s another card that we discussed pretty heavily. Getting Notorious Throng is really nice of course but it’s actually not all that important. On the turn we “go off” trying to cast a Time Warp mana is usually critically tight as you want to cast the Warp and ideally hold up mana for a counter to force it through or drop more weenies to set yourself up better to chain turns. Mystical Tutor is fine because you can hold off and see if you happen to draw a Time Warp with Edric before casting it in response to his last draw trigger. So it might tie up your mana but it will only do that if you really need to tutor with it. It also grabs Force of Will if you do draw a Time Warp so it gives you quite a bit of flexibility that you don’t have with Personal Tutor.
EDIT: @DementedKirby - Do you use Simic Charm mainly for the hexproof ability or are you using some of the other modes frequently?
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Reliquary Tower is quite bad in this deck. Colorless mana is often useless so it will quite often be worse than Spellbook. Also the card quality in the deck is extremely low. If I'm having to discard lands and Flying Men type creatures that's fine, those aren't good cards anyways and I get to keep my best 7 every time which is all I need. It's fine vs. Jin-Gitaxias but if my opponent's are getting Jin in play I've probably already lost. Plus I think my only tutor for it is Crop Rotation or Mystical Tutor into Crop Rotation so if I actually do need it I probably won't have it.
Burgeoning is worse than Exploration since you can't play the land during your turn. Also I'm discarding down to 0-1 land almost every turn anyways so I'm often not even playing many lands with Burgeoning. I don't run Sunder though it's a decent card.
Twincast is nice but I'd rather save mana up for a Counterspell. You'll also need to cast Time Warp, retain priority and cast Twincast (unless you gamble and hope someone has a response) so if someone has a counterspell you get blown out since they'll just counter your Time Warp.
This deck is built around redundancy so recurring cards is not that important. If you want to try the deck out I'd encourage you to build it card for card and make small adjustments. What the deck really needs is more Triton Shorestalkers.
I might also cut Daze if I'm also cutting Winter Orb/Tangle Wire/Erayo. I feel like it's substantially worse when I'm not choking people's resources.
I've personally been playing envelop and I like it a lot. The only issue I have with swan song is that it gives them a flying creature to block with so it makes me unable to attack them profitably since the 2/2 is usually bigger than my creatures. As I said, I'd rather play miscalculation than spell syphon because at least I can cycle it if I have to.
I can't see daze being worth it when there are better hard counters like deprive.
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
Daze is one of the weaker counters but it lets you tap out for Edric turn 2 or 3 and still be able to protect him. There just aren't many free counters available but I understand if you want to remove it as it gets progressively worse as the game goes on.
Thanks for the decklist and guide though, it really helped me make a budget version of the deck.
UWRUWR Midrange (Geist)RWU
Duel EDH:
UBRThraximundar Control (Budget)RBU
Glad I could help, it was a fun deck to build.
Opinions?
The only other lockdownish card that could fill that slot I can think of is Null Rod so I might throw that back in. Winter Orb is a good replacement if you don't run it already. A landwalker or counter would be fine too, I've wanted to try Spell Syphon out for awhile now. I don't like adding in another win condition because I feel I'm in a good spot where I'm at. Even fizzling is often just delaying the inevitable.
Too bad the deck lost a random free win card but at least it wasn't Gaea's Cradle. The biggest blow was done to double Edric 2HG. Less trolling for me and moxnix on MTGO
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Also, clearly Chalice of the Void should be listed amongst your weaknesses.
Chalice of the Void does seem pretty unbeatable and I'll add it to the list. Good catch!
Coastal Piracy/Bident of Thassa – Some of us ran Coastal Piracy when we first built the deck (Bident of Thassa wasn’t printed yet) thinking that redundancy would be useful but without tutors you can’t get it reliably when you would need it. It was also very poor in the opening hand which is a pretty big downside since it cuts into the critical mass of cards we need to get started. It seems good in theory but did not play out very well.
Kira, Great-Glass Spinner – Kira was tested heavily in the beginning but was unfortunately a bit too expensive. For more shroud I would recommend running Worldly Tutor so you can tutor for Sylvan Safekeeper as the cheapest option or give Plaxmanta a shot since he’s actually pretty solid. Dense Foliage is another option. It’s noteworthy that Safekeeper and Plaxmanta are still fine if you don’t need shroud whereas Kira is quite bad.
Vendilion Clique – This is an interesting option and I don’t recall if I ever tried it out or not. We really don’t have much use for silver bullets without any tutors though and it does cut into the critical mass of cards we need to get started. I just accept that Supreme Verdict is a rough card for us to deal with and I think adding in answers is actually detrimental to us since it slows the deck down which gives them more time to find and cast it. It’s actually conceivable for us to kill them before they get to 4 mana and there are some other answers so it’s not an auto lose and it is a gold card so there’s only so many decks that can run it. I do have a Vendilion Clique so it’s not a budget issue.
Envelop – This card has seen quite a bit of discussion and iirc ISBPathfinder was the one that brought it up. I personally am not a big fan as it doesn’t stop most spot removal but it’s certainly a viable option and I’m sure in some metas is quite good. Likely would include Force Spike first though since it will also stop sweepers pretty well as they will usually need to be cast on curve while being a little more flexible with it’s targets.
Simic Charm – It’s a neat card and I agree all the modes can be useful. I feel that shroud is the most useful mode however and I would prefer to run Plaxmanta again as he better supports what the rest of the deck is trying to do even though he has less utility overall.
I would advise giving some of these cards a shot if you want to try them though they could be quite good for you. Early on in my testing I like to have 2-3 flex slots that I swap cards in and out to try them out while still keeping the deck reasonably intact. My testing has been done exclusively on MTGO and in my own playgroup so your results may be different from mine.
I would recommend it. It makes you live through some wraths, Volcanic Fallout, Dreadbore, and most red wraths/removal, and about half of black's removals. You can think of it as another counterspell. If need be, you can even use it offensively to swing into someone with a boardstate if your landwalkers aren't active, though this is very rare.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
My YouTube Channel:
The Commander Tavern - a channel I just started where I'll post deck techs and gameplays. Please support by checking it out. Maybe you'll like its content and subscribe! Thanks!
Add Hallowed Burial, Terminus, Black Sun's Zenith, Toxic Deluge, cycled Decree of Pain, and Mutilate as commonly played wipes to that list. It's not perfect, but it's still very powerful.
'Common' ones that it survives are Oblivion Stone, Chain Reaction, Blasphemous Act, Dreadbore, Murder, Abrupt Decay, Volcanic Fallout, Go for the Throat, Beast Within, Day of Judgement, Rout, Sudden Demise, Arcbond, green fight spells, ... etc. It's still very, very good for 2 mana.
Some of those are more rare than others, but I have seen each one played to varying effects, and each of those could come down early enough vs. Edric.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
@Morningstar81 – Also sorry I skipped over Personal Tutor. It’s another card that we discussed pretty heavily. Getting Notorious Throng is really nice of course but it’s actually not all that important. On the turn we “go off” trying to cast a Time Warp mana is usually critically tight as you want to cast the Warp and ideally hold up mana for a counter to force it through or drop more weenies to set yourself up better to chain turns. Mystical Tutor is fine because you can hold off and see if you happen to draw a Time Warp with Edric before casting it in response to his last draw trigger. So it might tie up your mana but it will only do that if you really need to tutor with it. It also grabs Force of Will if you do draw a Time Warp so it gives you quite a bit of flexibility that you don’t have with Personal Tutor.
EDIT: @DementedKirby - Do you use Simic Charm mainly for the hexproof ability or are you using some of the other modes frequently?