That is good news. My meta is different in the fact that we tend to run more agro / control and less combo but its good to hear you are having success vs combo.
For me, I have on occasion had to cast thrun several times per game. My meta loves its clones though...
My creature package has been very light making me wonder how necessary more tutors are. Terminus and Hallowed Burial are the only current tuck mechanics that work on thrun and without expanding my creature package I dont have a lot of creatures I want every game currently.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I'm considering adding in Grafdigger's Cage into my list. Helps deal with sometimes problematic generals such as Sedris in my meta, or when the combo-Ghave player loads up an infinite mana Genesis Wave. Plus helps against some just general creature recursion based strategies. Probably more of a metacall, but figured I would run it by you guys and see what you thought?
How do you usually go about dealing with hexproof/indestructible creatures? A shrouded Avacyn, Angel of Hope somehow managed to equip a Lightning Greaves on a tapped out board last game I was in, which resulted in having to team up with the Punisher/Discard deck to overload a Cyclonic Rift on player with Avacyn's endstep, following up with a fully pumped mind twist to deal with her on his turn. Without that I was literally left with nothing to deal with Avacyn but hope to draw into Duplicant. Do you usually just handle these situations with a team-up or just try and play defensively, hoping one of your opponents has an answer?
About what creature package to run, that's a big can of worms isn't it. My thinking was I do need some answer to Terminus and Hallowed Burial, besides just sacrifice effects which won't always be available. I will also need removal, and chump blockers, and mana acceleration.
Since I knew I'd need all these things anyway, what permanent type is Green best at manipulating... Creatures of course. So my removal suite tends to be things like Acidic Slime, Indrik Stomphowler, Brutalizer Exarch, Terastodon, Triskelion, and Ulamog. The same tutors that serve to fetch Thrun in a disaster are used to find these answers when a different problem has appeared. So I tend to run a pretty huge utility creature suite, including even Genesis and Eternal Witness, along with a whole bunch of little derpy derp mana dudes, like Yavimaya Elder, who serve to carry swords, sacrifice to Edicts, and chump block.
It has been working so well that I'm going to expand my utility creature base and take out some of the weaker equipment. Running lots of weak equipment can lead to pretty bad blowouts from that white Command.
Those ETB removal creatures have been really huge for me, and packing the Manriki (or was it the Kusari, I get them confused) plus Arena and Lure is almost a repeating sweeper. Yes, that particular piece of gear is kind of situational and is a big mana investment. However, people really like to block Thrun. I find the threat of pumping him stronger than the execution. Rarely is it worthwhile to sink 8 mana to give him +4, but the opposing player needs to take the possibility into account. To block or not to block becomes a lose-lose situation. People tell me they hate this particular equipment more than most others, it's right up there with Feast and Famine or Infiltration Lens.
What I like best about this deck, I think, is how political it is. It's not the fastest deck on the block, but it's resilient as heck. Thrun is a solid, solid beatstick. I've had the most success by hanging back, letting positions develop and get cleared, gearing up my mana dorks and chump blockers to discourage too many foolish attacks. The deck's suite or artifact/enchantment removal is so, so huge. Just check out the database of crazy combos: Infinite Combos and/or very good card interactions.
How many of them involve an artifact or enchantment? At least half of them, I'd estimate. Blowing up something problematic is a good way to make friends. The stock speech is, "Look, your deck has all these tricks, but mine is out here on the table. It's Thrun, with this gear and stuff. Sure no one wants the Troll swinging at them, and if Thrun has no reason to swing, he's not going to. He didn't get old by sticking his nose in other people's business. Now my cards are out there for the world to see, so if anyone would like to make friends with Thrun, he's open to that. All you need to do is put your money where your mouth is and put some cards to work. Pretty speeches aren't going to move the mean green dude, but throw a spell or two his way and he'll remember that."
It doesn't work so well when Thrun can kill anyone with a swing, but in that early stage when everyone's hating out the sick Niv Mizzet or Sharrum or Arcum Daggson deck, it finds receptive ears. Particularly when a Viridian Shaman takes aim at that shiny artifact creature Daggson was about to turn into a Darksteel Forge.
I would have to rework some aspects of my list if I pushed in a greater number of creatures, but I can see that potentially happening. I want to work in a solid amount of creatures to provide me with a toolbox of effects for controlling the board state. I would need to drop Torpor Orb however, if I were to add in more ETB creatures. I could potentially see adding in Yeva, Nature's Herald if this route was pushed heavily. Trying to capitalize on green's strong suite of creatures does seem strong, especially with flash.
I wanted to run by two quick cards to see what everyone thought of them:
Elephant Grass - Really digging this card. I know it has an upkeep cost, but let it sit a few turns on a developed board and bide some time either controlling and removing other artifact/enchantments, or you can just straight up try and save yourself if they are swinging for critical.
Root Maze - Another small effect that works wonders for me in the early game. Shutting down early turn Sol Rings, Mana Vaults, and things of that nature have proven nice enough to keep this enchantment in my build, at least for now.
Yeah, Torpor Orb becomes public enemy #1 in this scenario: whoever drops that will have to experience a sideways Thrun ASAP. A Mystic Melting is good to have, I do not think I'll bother though. I've only seen the hatefulest orb once, in a Maverick - Goblins Legacy match.
Give it a shot with the creatures though, you won't be disappointed. With all the gear we're running, backup carriers are very good. I got through a Meekstone the other night be carefully deequipping various pieces of gear.
It's hard to find that balance between raw card draw, tutoring, ramp, removal, and enhancement for Thrun to make it work. What's the best card draw we can use? Genesis Wave, Mind's Eye, Sylvan Library, Scrying Sheets, Skullclamp...
Well, I have a few more updates from some practice games. Also... I learned that playing against rebels is bad lol. Stupid rebel aura floats right onto thrun... that's what I get for lending out my decks.
Loxodon Warhammer -> Riding the Dilu Horse the warhammer has been sort of bad if I ramp into thrun. If I am slow playing him on turn 4 its not a problem but when I get a turn 2-3 thrun it means that warhammer either comes down and equips over two turns or waits until 6 mana to happen. The Dilu Horse is really cool as its sort of like a counter or something where it doesn't leave anything behind and it gives me a 6/6 unblockable commander.
Forgotten Ancient -> Spore Cloud I have had a hard time with the ancient for long enough that I am just going to cut him. He is cool if he sticks but hes a lightning rod. The value he gives is entirely questionable as well as its up to my opponents to cast things and get some counters on him which was sort of meh when I got 1 counter in a turn rotation last time I played him... everyone had abilities and other things to do apparently. I like the random crazy fogs that give me some time to recover. The cloud can be used when other people are attacking elsewhere too. The tapping down blockers and keeping them tapped seems sweet.
Ancient Stirrings -> Triangle of War ohhhhh snap another fight card lol. I seriously love spot removal in green and I didnt even know about the triangle till I randomly came across it earlier today. Ancient Stirrings has been very random in my testing of late. I tested 10 hands and about half of them didn't have anything but a land option. It was a bit too hard to use for my own likes.
Strata Scythe -> Eldrazi Conscription one of my biggest issues with the scythe is the lack of trample. It gives a big buff but I figure the conscription gives about the same size buff for similar mana to drop + equip while giving trample and the annihilate 2 is a nice bonus.
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I agree on Forgotten Ancient. It can be really great but I just played a game this weekend where every round if I played him he would get capsized before I could move the counters. He did make a very good secondary fight target though.
I'm surprised you took out Strata Scythe and Loxodon Warhammer but I can understand your reasoning. I'm always happy to see both when I draw them. Maybe try O-Naginata if you want a lower cast & equip cost.
I agree on Forgotten Ancient. It can be really great but I just played a game this weekend where every round if I played him he would get capsized before I could move the counters. He did make a very good secondary fight target though.
I'm surprised you took out Strata Scythe and Loxodon Warhammer but I can understand your reasoning. I'm always happy to see both when I draw them. Maybe try O-Naginata if you want a lower cast & equip cost.
I am really excited to see how Dilu Hourse and the Triangle work out. I put my order for both of them in today. I think Dilu is going to be really exceptional as unblockable is just so much more powerful than trample
Strata Scythe and Loxodon Warhammer, my big issues here is that they both cost a lot to drop and equip. Scythe is only so so ok in the early game and still requires evasion to connect in. I just figured something with some connecting power would be a fine replacement. I very well might give O-Naginata a shot here yet as well. I considered it as an add in this change but decided against it at the last second.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Some small updates to the list. Things have been working out nicely but I have seen a bit more clones and tuck wraths of late. It might just be my meta sort of getting used to the list though.
DECK CHANGES:
Triangle of War -> Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary fighting is highly dependent on thrun sticking and being pumped. I like the idea of Rofellos which in my opinion is the best doubler option for thrun considering it ramps him out quickly and improves the creature toolbox. The triangle is cool but I dont know if I need as much as I was running. If the list was a bit more for 1v1 I think I would be a bit more behind it but I find it sort of difficult to use in MP as is. It might make its way back in but for now I wanted to make room for Rofellos.
Mystic Melting -> Mind's Eye The melt was the worst of my noncreature removal. I decided I liked card draw more as well and something not dependent on thrun seems useful.
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Hey ISB, have you considered running Silent Arbiter in here? He probably isn't quite as good as some of the force fight stuff like Prey Upon and Ulvenwald Tracker, but he is pretty nice against aggro decks that swing away. I have found him very useful in my Rafiq deck.
The only downside to him is protecting him so he doesn't get popped by either artifact or creature destruction.
Hey ISB, have you considered running Silent Arbiter in here? He probably isn't quite as good as some of the force fight stuff like Prey Upon and Ulvenwald Tracker, but he is pretty nice against aggro decks that swing away. I have found him very useful in my Rafiq deck.
The only downside to him is protecting him so he doesn't get popped by either artifact or creature destruction.
My big problem with Silent Arbiter is that the is rather focused on being sort of an anti token guy. I could at the same time run something like Spike Weaver which gives a little better coverage, isn't an artifact and thus harder to remove, and stops voltron tactics as well. I had put some consideration into Silent Arbiter but I feel like overall he is sort of a fragile and in general I dont like hinging all of my defenses on a single creature if I can help it.
DECK CHANGE:
Arena -> The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale well... I own a tabernacle (which I dont have a home for) so I suppose this isn't as big of a deal to me. I was having some issues with Arena and the fact that most people had chumps to throw off to it whereas Tabernacle busts on players with a bunch of creatures. Tokens are a problem for this deck so it seems legit. Yet another reason I am wanting Scapeshift more and more in here. I will have to find room for it soon.
I agree with bringing Rofellos and Mind's Eye in. Both have served me well in my list. Too bad Triangle didn't work out that well, I guess its just a 3 mana Prey Upon.
Nevinyrral's Disk -> Scapeshift the disk has been a bit slow in general and it sucks when it gets blown up after dropping it. With the addition of Tabernacle... I think Scapeshift can actually give me some good solid creature control now. I have been complaining that I should add this for long enough to finally go get one... I dont really get how regular Scapeshift is like $10.00 but a foil one is like $13.00 but whatever.
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Praetor's Counsel -> Winter Orb this lowers my curve a lot as well as probably just being a better card. I had issues with Praetor's Counsel being easy to disrupt in a lot of ways and being very conditional. Even if it resolved, it still had a lot of uncertainties as to how effective it would be. I think Winter Orb will give me a much better situational card that can help me punish the greedy land ramp high curve decks. Worst case it should probably buy me a few turns to smash face with thrun... I hope.
Rampant Growth -> Moss Diamond with the above change I might want a few colored stones. I figured this was about an equal swap here other than artifact sweepers being a bit more common. Still, if I am jacking with the lands in a few ways now I like having a few stones to tap for colored mana.
Mind Stone -> Coldsteel Heart the big difference being that coldsteel comes in tapped which is unfortunate however I think having colored mana off of it can be useful. I rarely ever used the sacrifice for a card option of the stone anyways. I am adding a bit more to screw with lands so I want some colored stones in here.
1 Forest -> Mouth of Ronom I like that this gives me a land version of a control card in here. Also, with trample I only need to assign enough to kill before I trample over so even just putting 4 damage on a creature means I can trample over sooner and hit harder. I like the options here.
Screwing with lands is really sort of mean however it really seems to fit the deck correctly here. I can always use the excuse that I am not blowing them up or displacing them at all :p. I am also sort of keeping an eye on Static Orb as a potential add to the list too. It is a bit harder to work with but it also gums up the board better and once I get into a good position it is potentially really powerful as well as being something I could tap down with my Icy Manipulator to untap with... Still, we will see how Winter Orb does before I consider that. Screwing with mana works so well with tabernacle though it seems like a strong strategy to consider here.
I think you could potentially squeeze in an Isochron Scepter and slot in a Naturalize as well. Having a repeatable fog or artifact/enchant destruction method wouldn't hurt. I'm not sure where the cuts for this would be though other than Rending Vines and something else. Having a Tangle available all the time could make someone tear their hair out.
Too narrow perhaps? Or the scepter being too narrow?
I think you could potentially squeeze in an Isochron Scepter and slot in a Naturalize as well. Having a repeatable fog or artifact/enchant destruction method wouldn't hurt. I'm not sure where the cuts for this would be though other than Rending Vines and something else. Having a Tangle available all the time could make someone tear their hair out.
Too narrow perhaps? Or the scepter being too narrow?
Generally speaking with Isochron I want it to work with my list not force my list to conform to it. As it stands I have like 3 targets for it so I would say its probably not going to work as is. Remember that this is mono green so its hard to reliably have a noncreature here. I would hate to force my instant package to conform to a card that I cant really regularly get my hands on.
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Deck has been doing well. I am working on trying to bring the list up to primer status so I put in something like 20 hours working on the Card Options list now in post #2 as well as implimenting a changelog and getting it up to date. I probably have another 5 hours or something like that to finish off the Card Options list but I got all of the cards I think up in there for now I just need to sort of put some reasons they could be good and what not in there. I have a few things I wanted to test out going forward to see what kind of results I get:
DECK CHANGES:
Akroma's Memorial -> Skarrg Goliath memorial is best for haste and alpha striking with things. Unfortunately Thrun gets there over time and needs big buffs. Its cool in theory but its sort of a scarey card so I cant just drop it in and use it as a nice buff over several turns as people hate on it. For now I think I am going to try to move away from it and see what sort of results I get. There was a problem with the fact that it gave only evasions and no pump to thrun. The new Goliath gives a stupid big one time buff for the same mana. I look forward to seeing if I cant just axe murder someone with it. Unfortunately its never going to be a one hit kill sort of deal but its still super cool and its uncounterable and doesn't die to naturalize which is nice.
Power Matrix -> Worldly Tutor The matrix is good evasion however it doesnt buff much. I wanted to try to bump up my creature tutor package as well since now with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and or Sakura-Tribe Elder in the list this could ramp me into a faster Thrun with this tutor. Later in the game I could go get the Skarrg Goliath that I am bringing in with this change as well. It helps me against tuck sweepers as well as I can go get Thrun.
Spore Cloud -> Ohran Viper I have actually seen too many fogs now before in this list. I think they are best sparsely scattered and at the point that I can always bluff having one at two mana. The viper gives me a deathtouch creature to block or attack out with and the draw on him seems very solid. I like that he is cheap as well so he should be easy to multi task.
I haven't gotten to see many of my recent changes yet although Tabernacle and Scapeshift has happened once already and it was cool. I haven't played it out against a token deck yet but Riku was sure unpleased to see the Tabernacle. I haven't gotten to see Winter Orb yet in action yet either but it could be a little too griefer... we will see though. Currently, I am contemplating the inclusion of Exploration and Burgeoning. They both seem really solid but I feel like I would want my land count to go up probably by something like 2 as well if I added them.
Buried Ruin -> Tower of the Magistrate to be honest... I am a bit curious if I could just add it over a forest but I am a bit afraid to add too many colorless lands. I still need to hit my GG by 4 mana. I haven't liked the utility of the ruin as much though since its a one and done effect. Its still good but I wanted the re-usability of Tower where I can hate on equipment and such :p. I need to play with things though as there's a chance I might just run both of them and cut further into my forest count. Also, I love how tower's ability costs two so it gives me another option of things I can do with my 2 mana I like keeping up in here.
Icy Manipulator -> Sylvan Scrying Icy has its moments but it seemed to be largely hit and miss based upon what I was facing. The other day I was dying to a Niv Mizzet 2.0 deck and I had it in hand like wtf is this going to do lol. As it is mono green though I needed to sort of test it in a lot of situations and its hard to reliably see it. Sadly though, it was just too often that it wasn't what I wanted to be doing. Sylvan Scrying can actually ramp me into a fast thrun thanks to Ancient Tomb in the list and has a lot of mid - late game uses thanks to my diverse utility land package.
I guess I should take a second to mention Sylvan Primordial. Currently I am not sold one way or the other on him being included in this list. That ramp is really slow and built a bit more for an attrition deck. Removing a single noncreature permanent from each other player is useful but not overly what I am looking for. I think for now I am going to not add him here due to his large mana cost. I think in this list I need to be able to potentially hit more than one target from a single user if I am paying that much for a dude. He is cool.... I just dont know about him here.
Currently in Question:Momentous Fall / Greater Good I love card draw but dropping Thrun is a hard thing to do and nicely recover from. The fall is hard to keep the mana up to utilize in this deck and greater good needs to be in pre-emptively. If someone smashes Greater Good do I ditch Thrun to it??? Its a hard call and usually I dont do it. So really they are sort of in for wraths which feels rather narrow. If I ran a ton of big fatties it might be a different story but for the most part thrun is the only target. They might be moving out soon.
Momentous Fall -> Thespian's Stage I have been having issues with Momentous Fall in the fact that its sort of expensive for me to keep up as an option. I dont really like dropping Thrun unless its an emergency situation so due to that I think I am more ok with keeping Greater Good for the moment. I have noticed that I could use probably another land or two as it screws up my land drops occasionally. I like the Stage in the fact that it can fix into green in the early if its a problem or it can go utility for me. It comes in untapped as well so.... it sounds good to me.
IN CUT CONSIDERATION CARDS:
Vedalken Orrery I love this thing in my Marton deck and it is backbreaking there. This deck doesnt have as explosive of things and generally speaking it is just going to be me dropping a big buff spell in my first mainphase which this doesnt help. I have been less impressed by it in here. Its cool but it draws tons of hate and just hasn't been that productive for me of late.
Greater Good its still problematic but I decided to keep it around for now as I drop Momentous Fall and see how things go.
Gaea's Embrace I keep wondering if it should be an equipment instead however I have seen a bit more from Shattering Spree like effects. I dont know though...
P.S. I am really annoyed that I cant run Pit Fight in here as I think it would be a great add.... damn rules.
I don't think many people would mind if you ran the Pit Fight. I keep Sylvan Scrying in for The Arena and Rogue's Passage. Unblockable general damage is good.
I don't think many people would mind if you ran the Pit Fight. I keep Sylvan Scrying in for The Arena and Rogue's Passage. Unblockable general damage is good.
I dont like varying from the official rules because I play in more than one meta and it gets weird trying to get everyone to sign off on something like that. Its something that I will just have to accept for now but the more of these hybrid cards that get printed the more I wish they would change the rules on playing them.
Sylvan Scrying - I have yet to actually draw it but it seems really good in theory. I love my utility lands in here so its really nice to be able to go get the one I want. Primetime would be great in here if he wasn't banned
To be honest, I dont actually know how different they would be in practice. Sometimes having the known threat can be good but sometimes you dont want people to know you have it either. Triangle does also cost one more to utilize to be fair as well. I think overall, other than the ability to recover artifacts slightly easier with something like Buried Ruin (which I am at the moment not running), the instant speed version is probably better.
The Triangle might make its way back into the list though. Its been a lot of playtesting trying to muck out the list and make it solid. I really like where I am now but there is plenty of testing yet to go.
Annoyingly I cant bump again but I wanted to go through with another deck update. I will attach it as an edit for now and probably bump it as a new post later if nobody sees it.
DECK CHANGE:
Vedalken Orrery -> Increasing Savagery the Orrery has been not working as well as I had hoped it to. I decided instead to increase my Thrun buffs. It could be the wrong move but I have been meaning to try out the Savagery as I like how it doesn't leave extra targets to blow up on the field and I love that the flashback is an enormous buff. It is cheap to cast it too so it seems like it could be worth playing around with.
I've seen you had Vow of Wildness in the deck: wasn't it good? It seems nice to have a removal option as well as some more boost + trample here.
It has potential but I wasn't playing against any voltron commanders and in my mind that's about the only time I would cast it elsewhere.
It actually replace Gaea's Embrace now that I look at it though..... In fact.... why don't I go ahead and do that lol. As for casting it on other player's creatures, I just didn't find myself doing that much of ever though. I think replacing Gaea's Embrace with it though is solid as its cheaper to cast while being potentially more versatile.
DECK CHANGE:
Gaea's Embrace -> Vow of Wildness more versatility and its cheaper to cast. I never really noticed much of a change moving my regen from 1G to G either.
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Sylvan Scrying is really good, even if one is only really running The Arena and Rogue's Passage. I find land destruction relatively rare in EDH, due to the stigma sometimes attached to it... making those lands very hard to get rid of, and they provide some of the absolutely most desirable abilities for Thrun. Why, I've kept an entire table's worth of really sick generals off the field, simply with the threat of fighting a Strata Scythed Thrun the moment they reached play. Keeping Daggson and Niv Mizzet away is good.
Counterspell decks won't always see the Passage coming, either, so they might just fail to counter the Scrying without realizing that the land drop will kill them.
I decided for a few more changes. Also, Riding the Dilu Horse continues to be stupidly good for me. The other day I topdecked it right when someone was massing tokens from an Ant Queen to block me and I was like... ohh btw you die this turn due to it. Sadly its not a cheap card to buy but I am so happy to have it now lol.
DECK CHANGES
Greater Good -> City of Solitude I wont lie, I am a little concerned about loosing the option to regen Thrun when this is in play but it just shuts opponents out of shinanigans so well. Currently the only big things this hurts us with is 1) Thrun regen 2) fighting 3) fogs. It does hurt us a bit but other than the fogs, thrun doesn't actually need to regen very often and you can still regen from combat damage with this in play. Fighting can still be done on our turn as well leaving only the fogs as really dead cards while this is in play. Greater Good was just too situational for me for when things were going bad and it took a lot of mana to get into play while I was usually trying to set up Thrun all beefy like.
Moment's Peace -> Hall of Gemstone my playgroup had made some adjustments for my fogging. I still really love fogs but I have a few less decks currently that fogs are good against. We are slowly creeping into more and more combo in our meta sadly. The hall has shut out a few multicolored decks already in some of my preliminary testing. It screws with me a little but potentially just haymakers some control decks and multicolored decks. Also as a side note, color producing mana stones and critters get a lot better with this too so I might consider trying to go even further on them if possible.
That is good news. My meta is different in the fact that we tend to run more agro / control and less combo but its good to hear you are having success vs combo.
For me, I have on occasion had to cast thrun several times per game. My meta loves its clones though...
My creature package has been very light making me wonder how necessary more tutors are. Terminus and Hallowed Burial are the only current tuck mechanics that work on thrun and without expanding my creature package I dont have a lot of creatures I want every game currently.
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[Modern] Allies
How do you usually go about dealing with hexproof/indestructible creatures? A shrouded Avacyn, Angel of Hope somehow managed to equip a Lightning Greaves on a tapped out board last game I was in, which resulted in having to team up with the Punisher/Discard deck to overload a Cyclonic Rift on player with Avacyn's endstep, following up with a fully pumped mind twist to deal with her on his turn. Without that I was literally left with nothing to deal with Avacyn but hope to draw into Duplicant. Do you usually just handle these situations with a team-up or just try and play defensively, hoping one of your opponents has an answer?
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Sword of Kaldra + Lure will take care of this as well.
About what creature package to run, that's a big can of worms isn't it. My thinking was I do need some answer to Terminus and Hallowed Burial, besides just sacrifice effects which won't always be available. I will also need removal, and chump blockers, and mana acceleration.
Since I knew I'd need all these things anyway, what permanent type is Green best at manipulating... Creatures of course. So my removal suite tends to be things like Acidic Slime, Indrik Stomphowler, Brutalizer Exarch, Terastodon, Triskelion, and Ulamog. The same tutors that serve to fetch Thrun in a disaster are used to find these answers when a different problem has appeared. So I tend to run a pretty huge utility creature suite, including even Genesis and Eternal Witness, along with a whole bunch of little derpy derp mana dudes, like Yavimaya Elder, who serve to carry swords, sacrifice to Edicts, and chump block.
It has been working so well that I'm going to expand my utility creature base and take out some of the weaker equipment. Running lots of weak equipment can lead to pretty bad blowouts from that white Command.
Those ETB removal creatures have been really huge for me, and packing the Manriki (or was it the Kusari, I get them confused) plus Arena and Lure is almost a repeating sweeper. Yes, that particular piece of gear is kind of situational and is a big mana investment. However, people really like to block Thrun. I find the threat of pumping him stronger than the execution. Rarely is it worthwhile to sink 8 mana to give him +4, but the opposing player needs to take the possibility into account. To block or not to block becomes a lose-lose situation. People tell me they hate this particular equipment more than most others, it's right up there with Feast and Famine or Infiltration Lens.
What I like best about this deck, I think, is how political it is. It's not the fastest deck on the block, but it's resilient as heck. Thrun is a solid, solid beatstick. I've had the most success by hanging back, letting positions develop and get cleared, gearing up my mana dorks and chump blockers to discourage too many foolish attacks. The deck's suite or artifact/enchantment removal is so, so huge. Just check out the database of crazy combos: Infinite Combos and/or very good card interactions.
How many of them involve an artifact or enchantment? At least half of them, I'd estimate. Blowing up something problematic is a good way to make friends. The stock speech is, "Look, your deck has all these tricks, but mine is out here on the table. It's Thrun, with this gear and stuff. Sure no one wants the Troll swinging at them, and if Thrun has no reason to swing, he's not going to. He didn't get old by sticking his nose in other people's business. Now my cards are out there for the world to see, so if anyone would like to make friends with Thrun, he's open to that. All you need to do is put your money where your mouth is and put some cards to work. Pretty speeches aren't going to move the mean green dude, but throw a spell or two his way and he'll remember that."
It doesn't work so well when Thrun can kill anyone with a swing, but in that early stage when everyone's hating out the sick Niv Mizzet or Sharrum or Arcum Daggson deck, it finds receptive ears. Particularly when a Viridian Shaman takes aim at that shiny artifact creature Daggson was about to turn into a Darksteel Forge.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I wanted to run by two quick cards to see what everyone thought of them:
Elephant Grass - Really digging this card. I know it has an upkeep cost, but let it sit a few turns on a developed board and bide some time either controlling and removing other artifact/enchantments, or you can just straight up try and save yourself if they are swinging for critical.
Root Maze - Another small effect that works wonders for me in the early game. Shutting down early turn Sol Rings, Mana Vaults, and things of that nature have proven nice enough to keep this enchantment in my build, at least for now.
[Primer] WUB Dromar, the Banisher Stax [SOON TO BE OLORO]
Give it a shot with the creatures though, you won't be disappointed. With all the gear we're running, backup carriers are very good. I got through a Meekstone the other night be carefully deequipping various pieces of gear.
It's hard to find that balance between raw card draw, tutoring, ramp, removal, and enhancement for Thrun to make it work. What's the best card draw we can use? Genesis Wave, Mind's Eye, Sylvan Library, Scrying Sheets, Skullclamp...
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Loxodon Warhammer -> Riding the Dilu Horse the warhammer has been sort of bad if I ramp into thrun. If I am slow playing him on turn 4 its not a problem but when I get a turn 2-3 thrun it means that warhammer either comes down and equips over two turns or waits until 6 mana to happen. The Dilu Horse is really cool as its sort of like a counter or something where it doesn't leave anything behind and it gives me a 6/6 unblockable commander.
Forgotten Ancient -> Spore Cloud I have had a hard time with the ancient for long enough that I am just going to cut him. He is cool if he sticks but hes a lightning rod. The value he gives is entirely questionable as well as its up to my opponents to cast things and get some counters on him which was sort of meh when I got 1 counter in a turn rotation last time I played him... everyone had abilities and other things to do apparently. I like the random crazy fogs that give me some time to recover. The cloud can be used when other people are attacking elsewhere too. The tapping down blockers and keeping them tapped seems sweet.
Ancient Stirrings -> Triangle of War ohhhhh snap another fight card lol. I seriously love spot removal in green and I didnt even know about the triangle till I randomly came across it earlier today. Ancient Stirrings has been very random in my testing of late. I tested 10 hands and about half of them didn't have anything but a land option. It was a bit too hard to use for my own likes.
Strata Scythe -> Eldrazi Conscription one of my biggest issues with the scythe is the lack of trample. It gives a big buff but I figure the conscription gives about the same size buff for similar mana to drop + equip while giving trample and the annihilate 2 is a nice bonus.
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[Modern] Allies
I agree on Forgotten Ancient. It can be really great but I just played a game this weekend where every round if I played him he would get capsized before I could move the counters. He did make a very good secondary fight target though.
I'm surprised you took out Strata Scythe and Loxodon Warhammer but I can understand your reasoning. I'm always happy to see both when I draw them. Maybe try O-Naginata if you want a lower cast & equip cost.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
I am really excited to see how Dilu Hourse and the Triangle work out. I put my order for both of them in today. I think Dilu is going to be really exceptional as unblockable is just so much more powerful than trample
Strata Scythe and Loxodon Warhammer, my big issues here is that they both cost a lot to drop and equip. Scythe is only so so ok in the early game and still requires evasion to connect in. I just figured something with some connecting power would be a fine replacement. I very well might give O-Naginata a shot here yet as well. I considered it as an add in this change but decided against it at the last second.
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[Modern] Allies
DECK CHANGES:
Triangle of War -> Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary fighting is highly dependent on thrun sticking and being pumped. I like the idea of Rofellos which in my opinion is the best doubler option for thrun considering it ramps him out quickly and improves the creature toolbox. The triangle is cool but I dont know if I need as much as I was running. If the list was a bit more for 1v1 I think I would be a bit more behind it but I find it sort of difficult to use in MP as is. It might make its way back in but for now I wanted to make room for Rofellos.
Mystic Melting -> Mind's Eye The melt was the worst of my noncreature removal. I decided I liked card draw more as well and something not dependent on thrun seems useful.
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[Modern] Allies
The only downside to him is protecting him so he doesn't get popped by either artifact or creature destruction.
My big problem with Silent Arbiter is that the is rather focused on being sort of an anti token guy. I could at the same time run something like Spike Weaver which gives a little better coverage, isn't an artifact and thus harder to remove, and stops voltron tactics as well. I had put some consideration into Silent Arbiter but I feel like overall he is sort of a fragile and in general I dont like hinging all of my defenses on a single creature if I can help it.
DECK CHANGE:
Arena -> The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale well... I own a tabernacle (which I dont have a home for) so I suppose this isn't as big of a deal to me. I was having some issues with Arena and the fact that most people had chumps to throw off to it whereas Tabernacle busts on players with a bunch of creatures. Tokens are a problem for this deck so it seems legit. Yet another reason I am wanting Scapeshift more and more in here. I will have to find room for it soon.
EDIT: also as a side note, I was playing a fun 1v1 game with a bud who just beat my boros deck. I opening handed 3x Forest, Mana Crypt, Mind Stone, Umezawa's Jitte, Praetor's Counsel. I hit him very hard and won quite quickly lol.
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[Modern] Allies
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
Nevinyrral's Disk -> Scapeshift the disk has been a bit slow in general and it sucks when it gets blown up after dropping it. With the addition of Tabernacle... I think Scapeshift can actually give me some good solid creature control now. I have been complaining that I should add this for long enough to finally go get one... I dont really get how regular Scapeshift is like $10.00 but a foil one is like $13.00 but whatever.
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[Modern] Allies
Praetor's Counsel -> Winter Orb this lowers my curve a lot as well as probably just being a better card. I had issues with Praetor's Counsel being easy to disrupt in a lot of ways and being very conditional. Even if it resolved, it still had a lot of uncertainties as to how effective it would be. I think Winter Orb will give me a much better situational card that can help me punish the greedy land ramp high curve decks. Worst case it should probably buy me a few turns to smash face with thrun... I hope.
Rampant Growth -> Moss Diamond with the above change I might want a few colored stones. I figured this was about an equal swap here other than artifact sweepers being a bit more common. Still, if I am jacking with the lands in a few ways now I like having a few stones to tap for colored mana.
Mind Stone -> Coldsteel Heart the big difference being that coldsteel comes in tapped which is unfortunate however I think having colored mana off of it can be useful. I rarely ever used the sacrifice for a card option of the stone anyways. I am adding a bit more to screw with lands so I want some colored stones in here.
1 Forest -> Mouth of Ronom I like that this gives me a land version of a control card in here. Also, with trample I only need to assign enough to kill before I trample over so even just putting 4 damage on a creature means I can trample over sooner and hit harder. I like the options here.
14 Forest -> Snow-Covered Forest to support the swap to Mouth of Ronom. Also, to my great dissatisfaction... someone in my meta plays Wake of Destruction so this makes it so I dont loose them all running a split.
Screwing with lands is really sort of mean however it really seems to fit the deck correctly here. I can always use the excuse that I am not blowing them up or displacing them at all :p. I am also sort of keeping an eye on Static Orb as a potential add to the list too. It is a bit harder to work with but it also gums up the board better and once I get into a good position it is potentially really powerful as well as being something I could tap down with my Icy Manipulator to untap with... Still, we will see how Winter Orb does before I consider that. Screwing with mana works so well with tabernacle though it seems like a strong strategy to consider here.
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[Modern] Allies
Too narrow perhaps? Or the scepter being too narrow?
Generally speaking with Isochron I want it to work with my list not force my list to conform to it. As it stands I have like 3 targets for it so I would say its probably not going to work as is. Remember that this is mono green so its hard to reliably have a noncreature here. I would hate to force my instant package to conform to a card that I cant really regularly get my hands on.
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[Modern] Allies
DECK CHANGES:
Akroma's Memorial -> Skarrg Goliath memorial is best for haste and alpha striking with things. Unfortunately Thrun gets there over time and needs big buffs. Its cool in theory but its sort of a scarey card so I cant just drop it in and use it as a nice buff over several turns as people hate on it. For now I think I am going to try to move away from it and see what sort of results I get. There was a problem with the fact that it gave only evasions and no pump to thrun. The new Goliath gives a stupid big one time buff for the same mana. I look forward to seeing if I cant just axe murder someone with it. Unfortunately its never going to be a one hit kill sort of deal but its still super cool and its uncounterable and doesn't die to naturalize which is nice.
Power Matrix -> Worldly Tutor The matrix is good evasion however it doesnt buff much. I wanted to try to bump up my creature tutor package as well since now with Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary and or Sakura-Tribe Elder in the list this could ramp me into a faster Thrun with this tutor. Later in the game I could go get the Skarrg Goliath that I am bringing in with this change as well. It helps me against tuck sweepers as well as I can go get Thrun.
Spore Cloud -> Ohran Viper I have actually seen too many fogs now before in this list. I think they are best sparsely scattered and at the point that I can always bluff having one at two mana. The viper gives me a deathtouch creature to block or attack out with and the draw on him seems very solid. I like that he is cheap as well so he should be easy to multi task.
I haven't gotten to see many of my recent changes yet although Tabernacle and Scapeshift has happened once already and it was cool. I haven't played it out against a token deck yet but Riku was sure unpleased to see the Tabernacle. I haven't gotten to see Winter Orb yet in action yet either but it could be a little too griefer... we will see though. Currently, I am contemplating the inclusion of Exploration and Burgeoning. They both seem really solid but I feel like I would want my land count to go up probably by something like 2 as well if I added them.
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[Modern] Allies
Buried Ruin -> Tower of the Magistrate to be honest... I am a bit curious if I could just add it over a forest but I am a bit afraid to add too many colorless lands. I still need to hit my GG by 4 mana. I haven't liked the utility of the ruin as much though since its a one and done effect. Its still good but I wanted the re-usability of Tower where I can hate on equipment and such :p. I need to play with things though as there's a chance I might just run both of them and cut further into my forest count. Also, I love how tower's ability costs two so it gives me another option of things I can do with my 2 mana I like keeping up in here.
Icy Manipulator -> Sylvan Scrying Icy has its moments but it seemed to be largely hit and miss based upon what I was facing. The other day I was dying to a Niv Mizzet 2.0 deck and I had it in hand like wtf is this going to do lol. As it is mono green though I needed to sort of test it in a lot of situations and its hard to reliably see it. Sadly though, it was just too often that it wasn't what I wanted to be doing. Sylvan Scrying can actually ramp me into a fast thrun thanks to Ancient Tomb in the list and has a lot of mid - late game uses thanks to my diverse utility land package.
I guess I should take a second to mention Sylvan Primordial. Currently I am not sold one way or the other on him being included in this list. That ramp is really slow and built a bit more for an attrition deck. Removing a single noncreature permanent from each other player is useful but not overly what I am looking for. I think for now I am going to not add him here due to his large mana cost. I think in this list I need to be able to potentially hit more than one target from a single user if I am paying that much for a dude. He is cool.... I just dont know about him here.
Currently in Question: Momentous Fall / Greater Good I love card draw but dropping Thrun is a hard thing to do and nicely recover from. The fall is hard to keep the mana up to utilize in this deck and greater good needs to be in pre-emptively. If someone smashes Greater Good do I ditch Thrun to it??? Its a hard call and usually I dont do it. So really they are sort of in for wraths which feels rather narrow. If I ran a ton of big fatties it might be a different story but for the most part thrun is the only target. They might be moving out soon.
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[Modern] Allies
Momentous Fall -> Thespian's Stage I have been having issues with Momentous Fall in the fact that its sort of expensive for me to keep up as an option. I dont really like dropping Thrun unless its an emergency situation so due to that I think I am more ok with keeping Greater Good for the moment. I have noticed that I could use probably another land or two as it screws up my land drops occasionally. I like the Stage in the fact that it can fix into green in the early if its a problem or it can go utility for me. It comes in untapped as well so.... it sounds good to me.
IN CUT CONSIDERATION CARDS:
Vedalken Orrery I love this thing in my Marton deck and it is backbreaking there. This deck doesnt have as explosive of things and generally speaking it is just going to be me dropping a big buff spell in my first mainphase which this doesnt help. I have been less impressed by it in here. Its cool but it draws tons of hate and just hasn't been that productive for me of late.
Greater Good its still problematic but I decided to keep it around for now as I drop Momentous Fall and see how things go.
Gaea's Embrace I keep wondering if it should be an equipment instead however I have seen a bit more from Shattering Spree like effects. I dont know though...
P.S. I am really annoyed that I cant run Pit Fight in here as I think it would be a great add.... damn rules.
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[Modern] Allies
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
I dont like varying from the official rules because I play in more than one meta and it gets weird trying to get everyone to sign off on something like that. Its something that I will just have to accept for now but the more of these hybrid cards that get printed the more I wish they would change the rules on playing them.
Sylvan Scrying - I have yet to actually draw it but it seems really good in theory. I love my utility lands in here so its really nice to be able to go get the one I want. Primetime would be great in here if he wasn't banned
To be honest, I dont actually know how different they would be in practice. Sometimes having the known threat can be good but sometimes you dont want people to know you have it either. Triangle does also cost one more to utilize to be fair as well. I think overall, other than the ability to recover artifacts slightly easier with something like Buried Ruin (which I am at the moment not running), the instant speed version is probably better.
The Triangle might make its way back into the list though. Its been a lot of playtesting trying to muck out the list and make it solid. I really like where I am now but there is plenty of testing yet to go.
Annoyingly I cant bump again but I wanted to go through with another deck update. I will attach it as an edit for now and probably bump it as a new post later if nobody sees it.
DECK CHANGE:
Vedalken Orrery -> Increasing Savagery the Orrery has been not working as well as I had hoped it to. I decided instead to increase my Thrun buffs. It could be the wrong move but I have been meaning to try out the Savagery as I like how it doesn't leave extra targets to blow up on the field and I love that the flashback is an enormous buff. It is cheap to cast it too so it seems like it could be worth playing around with.
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[Modern] Allies
It has potential but I wasn't playing against any voltron commanders and in my mind that's about the only time I would cast it elsewhere.
It actually replace Gaea's Embrace now that I look at it though..... In fact.... why don't I go ahead and do that lol. As for casting it on other player's creatures, I just didn't find myself doing that much of ever though. I think replacing Gaea's Embrace with it though is solid as its cheaper to cast while being potentially more versatile.
DECK CHANGE:
Gaea's Embrace -> Vow of Wildness more versatility and its cheaper to cast. I never really noticed much of a change moving my regen from 1G to G either.
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Counterspell decks won't always see the Passage coming, either, so they might just fail to counter the Scrying without realizing that the land drop will kill them.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Banner by Rivenor
I also had the option to use trollface version but I felt that the eyes really nicely popped in the non cheese version.
I suppose I could still be sold on the troll face version but the other one looked quite good.
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[Modern] Allies
DECK CHANGES
Greater Good -> City of Solitude I wont lie, I am a little concerned about loosing the option to regen Thrun when this is in play but it just shuts opponents out of shinanigans so well. Currently the only big things this hurts us with is 1) Thrun regen 2) fighting 3) fogs. It does hurt us a bit but other than the fogs, thrun doesn't actually need to regen very often and you can still regen from combat damage with this in play. Fighting can still be done on our turn as well leaving only the fogs as really dead cards while this is in play. Greater Good was just too situational for me for when things were going bad and it took a lot of mana to get into play while I was usually trying to set up Thrun all beefy like.
Moment's Peace -> Hall of Gemstone my playgroup had made some adjustments for my fogging. I still really love fogs but I have a few less decks currently that fogs are good against. We are slowly creeping into more and more combo in our meta sadly. The hall has shut out a few multicolored decks already in some of my preliminary testing. It screws with me a little but potentially just haymakers some control decks and multicolored decks. Also as a side note, color producing mana stones and critters get a lot better with this too so I might consider trying to go even further on them if possible.
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[Modern] Allies