A few cards that perform well for me are Phantom Nishoba and Requiem Angel. Requiem Angel about doubles the number of tokens you can sacrifice, and is nuts with Parallel Lives or Doubling Season and a sacrifice outlet. With Ghave out, Phantom Nishoba is a near-indestructible(to combat damage) beater with lifelink. If you have a suitable board position with Ghave, then you can swing away and gain tons of life, regardless of the size of your opponent's creatures.
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I Play EDH, Standard and casually.
I've been playing for around 4 years (Since Lorwyn-Morningtide, I think)
I know everyone wants me to run Earthcraft, but if I do that I might as well go all in on the combos which means that most of group will not want to play against this deck. Right now they're okay with it because it doesn't go too overboard, but I have a feeling they won't like Earthcraft.
Honestly it's too good of a combo card to not run. You're already running some combos.
That's exactly what I'm saying: It's too good. My playgroup aren't big fans of combo decks so I think if I added Earthcraft they wouldn't play against this deck. Either that or they would make it archenemy every game.
Honestly, if you're playing combo ghave and arn't almost the archenemy then something is wrong anyway.
At the place the deck is now, it's not a hardcore combo deck. It occasionally wins off of Avenger + Ashnod's + Deathmantle, but often I just use this type of cards along with Ghave, Juniper, Sigil Captain, Doubling Season & Parallel Lives to create a ton of mana or tokens without going infinite. If I wanted to make this deck as cutthroat as possible Earthcraft is the first thing I would add.
I'm thinking about taking out a lot of the "filler" type cards and really streamlining the combos and turoring to allow the deck to go off more quickly and consistenty. I've been getting bored with just sitting around and being seen as the biggest threat in multiplayer games when I'm not actually packing that many combos. If this deck is going to be hated on, especially on cockatrice, I might as well make it worthwhile.
Combos I run:
Mikaeus + Triskelion = Infinite Damage
Ghave + Ashnod's Altar + Sigil Captain = Infinite Mana + Tokens
Ghave + Ashnod's Altar + Juniper Order Ranger = Infinite Mana + Tokens
Avenger of Zendikar + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle = Infinite Mana + Tokens
Wurmcoil Engine + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle = Infinite Mana + Tokens
Puppeteer Clique + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle = Steal All Creatures from GYs
Woodfall Primus + Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle = Kill All Noncreature Permanents
Mikaeus + Sac Outlet + Puppeteer Clique = Steal All Creatures from GYs
Mikaeus + Sac Outlet + Woodfall Primus = Kill All Noncreature Permanents
Melira + Sac Outlet + Puppeteer Clique = Steal All Creatures from GYs
Melira + Sac Outlet + Woodfall Primus = Kill All Noncreature Permanents
Juniper Order Ranger + Sac Outlet + Puppeteer Clique = Steal All Creatures from GYs
Juniper Order Ranger + Sac Outlet + Woodfall Primus = Kill All Noncreature Permanents
Various Shenanigans with Doubling Season and Parallel Lives
Adding Skullclamp or Carnage Altar to any of these will allow for infinite draw.
Adding Grave Pact, Martyr's Bond, or Aura Shards will allow me to kill a ton of things.
Adding Exsanguinate will allow me to win the game immediately.
Adding Concordant Crossroads will allow for lethal combat damage immediately.
Probably more that I haven't even discovered.
I love this deck and I'm actually kind of modeling a ghave deck after it if I can stand to take some cards out of my Doran infect deck.
Champion of Lambholt from avr could be a good addition to make your creatures unblockable so you can swing in faster.
Rhys, the Redeemed is just a stupidly good card in any token deck that can run it, imo. Especially if you don't want to go purely combo.
Also, Squirrel Nest wouldn't be a bad addition if you ever decide to add earthcraft, as it can make infinite tokens at instant speed for more shenanigans.
Something you left off the combos is that anywhere where you had a nondescript sac outlet, if you replace it with ashnod's altar you also get infinite mana as a byproduct.
I love this deck and I'm actually kind of modeling a ghave deck after it if I can stand to take some cards out of my Doran infect deck.
Champion of Lambholt from avr could be a good addition to make your creatures unblockable so you can swing in faster.
Rhys, the Redeemed is just a stupidly good card in any token deck that can run it, imo. Especially if you don't want to go purely combo.
Also, Squirrel Nest wouldn't be a bad addition if you ever decide to add earthcraft, as it can make infinite tokens at instant speed for more shenanigans.
Something you left off the combos is that anywhere where you had a nondescript sac outlet, if you replace it with ashnod's altar you also get infinite mana as a byproduct.
Thanks for the compliment. This deck is a lot of fun and it's great to hear that it has inspired you to make your own Ghave deck. As for the cards you suggested:
Champion of Lambholt seems like a good pick as it makes infinite mana with Ghave and a sac outlet. Also, making my dudes unblockable is useful in a pinch.
I'm not a big fan of Rhys in a build like this, since I usually don't have a ton of tokens. The main plan is to abuse the ones I do have with Skullclamp, Grave Pact, etc, until I'm in a position to combo off. Rhys doesn't really contribute anything to this plan.
Squirrel Nest will definitely go in if Earthcraft does. It's another combo to add to my list. The reason I'm worried about running Earthcraft is that I don't want to draw all the hate. Earthcraft fills the same role as Ashnod's Altar: comboing with almost everything. Running it would definitely improve the consistency, but I don't want to get hated on too much.
If you want cards that are decent with Ghave but don't go infinite, I like creatures that get 1/1 counters when stuff dies, like Unruly Mob, Mortician Beetle, and Lumberknot. They become an engine that reads "2: put a 1/1 counter on this creature" (1 to peel off a Saproling and 1 to stick it back on). Black Market makes a decent death combo too.
If you want cards that are decent with Ghave but don't go infinite, I like creatures that get 1/1 counters when stuff dies, like Unruly Mob, Mortician Beetle, and Lumberknot. They become an engine that reads "2: put a 1/1 counter on this creature" (1 to peel off a Saproling and 1 to stick it back on). Black Market makes a decent death combo too.
Prince Reyson, you're right. The thing is, that's only one card. I'm just giving some more options, that way you can get more power for your Saproling death (it also didn't help that I thought he already had the Blade :P)
It seems like you've got a lot of awesome persist stuff going here. Maybe you should consider trying Cauldron of Souls?
Also, I like Primordial Hydra as a 1/1 counter farm and Protean Hydra just because of how easily it combos with Ghave's saproling spam ability (you get double counters AND a bunch of saprolings :D)
I run a Ghave deck myself. Earthcraft is right up there with Mikeaus the Unhallowed as one of the best cards in this deck. In a token deck, it can generate you tons of extra mana by itself helping you get ahead of the field. It also gives another means to go for an infinite kill. I know of several games I drew earthcraft and just won against the whole table. Its also nice that its a 2 cost so I can recur it over and over with sun titan if I need to. Earthcraft is banned in Legacy for a reason: it's that good.
First of all, I really like your list! Enjoyed reading through the thread. Vigor is a great card, that I've somehow missed, can't wait to try him out! I understand you are running a more explosive build than me, but I thought it was worth sharing some experiences considering attracting hate. I'm also trying to keep the combo and tutor count low in my own Ghave deck, and focus more on synergy and board control. In general other players haven't hated on me all that much.
Blasting station is a great utility card, even when it's not part of a combo, you should really try it out. I've removed triskelion from my own list, as really the only times I want to see him is as a part of some degenerate combo (tooth and nail into Mikaeus+Triskelion isn't much fun :-/). I would much rather see protean hydra most of the time.
I see you assess bitterblossom and awakening zone as too slow cards, but they have really been some of the best early-game cards for me. They don't draw much hate, and give you something to start working with. I assume it's because I'm running stoneforge mystic to fetch skullclamp as well. A fearie token is not the worst thing to carry a sword either. I just find them a lot more reliable than for instance increasing devotion, and keep a nice steady phase with for instance aura shards on the field. They often just keep on puffing after a sweeper as well. Elspeth is pretty much doing the same thing (unless you already got doubling season in play), if you're happy with him. Have you thought about adding Sorin, lord of innistrad? His -2 ability is nifty and works out nicely with skullclamp as well. I've even been testing Mentor of the meek lately, to see if I can take further advantage of the steady stream of tokens. He has seemed decent so far, and another card that's not really scary enough to draw much attention. I do run some more protection than you as well (Privileged Position and Dauntless Escort). As for Champion of Lambholt, she has been great to me so far, actually won my last game by swinging with her as a 100/100 :D. Have you thought about Retribution of the Meek as a sweeper? It tend to be quite one-sided... I assume vindicate is out of budget? Cathars' Crusade has been insane the few times I've gotten it into play, so I can see why it's on your brokenness list :).
May I recommend Bitter Ordeal? I know it's a one shot but it's recurrable and it goes off of the easiest combo to do, making a single creature and then sacrificing it with no net gain an infinite amount of times. Only 3 cards can counter it (Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap and Time Stop) and even if it's not infinite it can severely wreck any deck if cast for just 5 or 10 copies. Remove all their enchantment and artifact hate! Plus, it feels so good to tell someone that they ate thousands of mushrooms and are about to go utterly insane.
I know this threads like over a year old but here's a few things I've discovered about ghave.
I've been working my own casual Ghave deck and it mostly runs on infinite combos at this point; in fact you've had an infinite combo in there with the decklist in the very beggining!! So as for those combos it goes as follows:
Undying creatures+Ghave+Either Altar Butcher Ghoul, Young Wolf and Strangleroot are all wonderful pieces. If you're afraid you're playgroup fear this deck, then avoid putting the gameender that is Geralf's Messenger :D. Aside from those four the rest of the undying creatures are are high mana low benefit. I honestly would advise Phyrexian altar simply because with the undying creatures it's like having 2 Ashnod's altars.
Now the second group of combo pieces works ONLY with Ashnods altar because you need that second mana specifically to make more saps: Illusionists Bracers
Doubling Season Cathar's Crusade Champion of Lambholt Ivy Lane Denizen
There may be more but these are the ones I know.
With Skullclamp and Mentor of the Meek these can end up infinite draw combos (except mentor and cathars crusade simultaneously., or any other pump your tokens may be getting)
The reason I like Phyrexian altar in there as well is that it can also color fix if you really need to do that. If you have an infinite combo with Ashnods altar and skullclamp or Mentor is present (or Carnage Altar which I actually didn't know of until now), you can draw into Phyrexian altar and literally play every spell in your deck (which for me ends up meaning ending the game with Geralf's Messenger). For unnecessary repetitiveness you can throw in elixer of immortality and repeat as much as you want.
Keep in mind of course that even without the altars these combo peices still allow you to make sapprolings fairly cheaply and allow gave to be a mana sink.
I haven't tried akroma's memorial the deck but I advise against it because Ghave is black and you're essentially giving your creatures protection from him giving them +1/+1 counters. Instead I'd advise Eldrazi Monument
You said you'd prefer repeatable token makers rather than one use ones, but I've found them useful as blockers and also mana via altars. Storm Herd can be a nice turn around card and if you have an altar and some small amount of tokens it certainly doesn't hurt. Army of the Damned also rarely hurts.
[card]Ajani Goldmane is another suggestion because of his -1 being an extra township, and [Card]Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's emblam and tokens are also helpful.
A card I added simply for laughs is triumph of the hordes; strategically however it can allow you to take someone out even with a (relatively) minimum amount of creatures.
One last thing I'd say is this:I don't think reanimation in this kind of deck isn't very neccessary simply because you ALWAYS have board presence. Even if you don't go infinite, you can still churn out creatures far faster than anyone else unless someone's tossed a broodmother on their side.
I see you run persist creatures with Ghave, though many don't, since persist doesn't work so well with Doubling season.
Can someone give me a primer on how abusing persist works with Ghave? I'm pretty sure I can't sac a persist creature to him, then put the +1/+1 counter on the persist creature once it returns, can I? Can someone explain how that works?
I find that using all the infinite combos just makes my playgroup hate my deck, so I like to keep it simple. Turning tokens or huge dudes sideways seems to do the trick.
I haven't had this deck put together in a long time, so it hasn't been receiving any updates for quite a while. There are probably more recent Ghave lists if you would like to see one that is updated with Dragon's Maze cards.
Cathars' Crusade was used in my friend's Ghave deck, and wow did it do work! Definitely recommend it. It made an army of tokens become insanely powerful, or just let Ghave peel off a saproling for free and keep his counter.
My Ghave Deck run no infinite combos, and is still a beast. Bronzebeak Moa is broken, and Champion of Lambholt is, in my opinion, the best green creature in the game. Mycloth is pure evil in this any token deck, Butcher of Malakir is even worse, plus the Dictate of Erebos. Corpsejack Menace, Hardened Scales, and even Vish Kal are amazing. Mazirek and Swarm of Bloodflies are almost instant game-winners as well. Jar of Eyeballs is also something to consider, as I often sacrifice it with 16+ counters, and draw one of the cards listed above. Puppeteer Clique is a fun card to play, especially with Juniper Ranger or Cathar's Crusade. Hope this helps.
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I've been playing for around 4 years (Since Lorwyn-Morningtide, I think)
My Decks
Standard
BWBW TokensWB
BMonoblack InfectB
EDH
BGWGhave, Guru of SporesWGB
BRGKarrthus, Tyrant of JundGRB
Casual
BVampiresB
UStasisU
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
That's exactly what I'm saying: It's too good. My playgroup aren't big fans of combo decks so I think if I added Earthcraft they wouldn't play against this deck. Either that or they would make it archenemy every game.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
At the place the deck is now, it's not a hardcore combo deck. It occasionally wins off of Avenger + Ashnod's + Deathmantle, but often I just use this type of cards along with Ghave, Juniper, Sigil Captain, Doubling Season & Parallel Lives to create a ton of mana or tokens without going infinite. If I wanted to make this deck as cutthroat as possible Earthcraft is the first thing I would add.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
In:
Out:
EDIT: 777 posts! Now I can never post again.
EDIT 2: Well I've already broken that.
I'm thinking about taking out a lot of the "filler" type cards and really streamlining the combos and turoring to allow the deck to go off more quickly and consistenty. I've been getting bored with just sitting around and being seen as the biggest threat in multiplayer games when I'm not actually packing that many combos. If this deck is going to be hated on, especially on cockatrice, I might as well make it worthwhile.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
I love this deck and I'm actually kind of modeling a ghave deck after it if I can stand to take some cards out of my Doran infect deck.
Champion of Lambholt from avr could be a good addition to make your creatures unblockable so you can swing in faster.
Rhys, the Redeemed is just a stupidly good card in any token deck that can run it, imo. Especially if you don't want to go purely combo.
Also, Squirrel Nest wouldn't be a bad addition if you ever decide to add earthcraft, as it can make infinite tokens at instant speed for more shenanigans.
Something you left off the combos is that anywhere where you had a nondescript sac outlet, if you replace it with ashnod's altar you also get infinite mana as a byproduct.
BGW Doran, the Siege Tower BGW
URG Animar, Combo Player URG (needs updating)
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
Thanks for the compliment. This deck is a lot of fun and it's great to hear that it has inspired you to make your own Ghave deck. As for the cards you suggested:
Champion of Lambholt seems like a good pick as it makes infinite mana with Ghave and a sac outlet. Also, making my dudes unblockable is useful in a pinch.
I'm not a big fan of Rhys in a build like this, since I usually don't have a ton of tokens. The main plan is to abuse the ones I do have with Skullclamp, Grave Pact, etc, until I'm in a position to combo off. Rhys doesn't really contribute anything to this plan.
Squirrel Nest will definitely go in if Earthcraft does. It's another combo to add to my list. The reason I'm worried about running Earthcraft is that I don't want to draw all the hate. Earthcraft fills the same role as Ashnod's Altar: comboing with almost everything. Running it would definitely improve the consistency, but I don't want to get hated on too much.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
Even better than this is Blade of the Bloodchief. Makes anything grow, lets you play Stoneforge Mystic to tutor for more than just Skullclamp, and the Vampire clause is not irrelevant- both Blood Artist and Falkenrath Noble are cards you want to be playing anyway and things like Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter can easily combo with it to end the game.
Level 1 Judge
It seems like you've got a lot of awesome persist stuff going here. Maybe you should consider trying Cauldron of Souls?
Also, I like Primordial Hydra as a 1/1 counter farm and Protean Hydra just because of how easily it combos with Ghave's saproling spam ability (you get double counters AND a bunch of saprolings :D)
I'll stop posting my stupid ideas now
G Azusa, Lost but Seeking G
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV WU
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftan WBG
B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B
RU Tibor and Lumia RU
'He tasks me! He tasks me, and I shall have him!' - Khan Noonien Singh
Blasting station is a great utility card, even when it's not part of a combo, you should really try it out. I've removed triskelion from my own list, as really the only times I want to see him is as a part of some degenerate combo (tooth and nail into Mikaeus+Triskelion isn't much fun :-/). I would much rather see protean hydra most of the time.
I see you assess bitterblossom and awakening zone as too slow cards, but they have really been some of the best early-game cards for me. They don't draw much hate, and give you something to start working with. I assume it's because I'm running stoneforge mystic to fetch skullclamp as well. A fearie token is not the worst thing to carry a sword either. I just find them a lot more reliable than for instance increasing devotion, and keep a nice steady phase with for instance aura shards on the field. They often just keep on puffing after a sweeper as well. Elspeth is pretty much doing the same thing (unless you already got doubling season in play), if you're happy with him. Have you thought about adding Sorin, lord of innistrad? His -2 ability is nifty and works out nicely with skullclamp as well. I've even been testing Mentor of the meek lately, to see if I can take further advantage of the steady stream of tokens. He has seemed decent so far, and another card that's not really scary enough to draw much attention. I do run some more protection than you as well (Privileged Position and Dauntless Escort). As for Champion of Lambholt, she has been great to me so far, actually won my last game by swinging with her as a 100/100 :D. Have you thought about Retribution of the Meek as a sweeper? It tend to be quite one-sided... I assume vindicate is out of budget? Cathars' Crusade has been insane the few times I've gotten it into play, so I can see why it's on your brokenness list :).
I've been working my own casual Ghave deck and it mostly runs on infinite combos at this point; in fact you've had an infinite combo in there with the decklist in the very beggining!! So as for those combos it goes as follows:
Undying creatures+Ghave+Either Altar
Butcher Ghoul, Young Wolf and Strangleroot are all wonderful pieces. If you're afraid you're playgroup fear this deck, then avoid putting the gameender that is Geralf's Messenger :D. Aside from those four the rest of the undying creatures are are high mana low benefit. I honestly would advise Phyrexian altar simply because with the undying creatures it's like having 2 Ashnod's altars.
Now the second group of combo pieces works ONLY with Ashnods altar because you need that second mana specifically to make more saps:
Illusionists Bracers
Doubling Season
Cathar's Crusade
Champion of Lambholt
Ivy Lane Denizen
There may be more but these are the ones I know.
With Skullclamp and Mentor of the Meek these can end up infinite draw combos (except mentor and cathars crusade simultaneously., or any other pump your tokens may be getting)
The reason I like Phyrexian altar in there as well is that it can also color fix if you really need to do that. If you have an infinite combo with Ashnods altar and skullclamp or Mentor is present (or Carnage Altar which I actually didn't know of until now), you can draw into Phyrexian altar and literally play every spell in your deck (which for me ends up meaning ending the game with Geralf's Messenger). For unnecessary repetitiveness you can throw in elixer of immortality and repeat as much as you want.
Keep in mind of course that even without the altars these combo peices still allow you to make sapprolings fairly cheaply and allow gave to be a mana sink.
I haven't tried akroma's memorial the deck but I advise against it because Ghave is black and you're essentially giving your creatures protection from him giving them +1/+1 counters. Instead I'd advise Eldrazi Monument
You said you'd prefer repeatable token makers rather than one use ones, but I've found them useful as blockers and also mana via altars. Storm Herd can be a nice turn around card and if you have an altar and some small amount of tokens it certainly doesn't hurt. Army of the Damned also rarely hurts.
[card]Ajani Goldmane is another suggestion because of his -1 being an extra township, and [Card]Sorin, Lord of Innistrad's emblam and tokens are also helpful.
A card I added simply for laughs is triumph of the hordes; strategically however it can allow you to take someone out even with a (relatively) minimum amount of creatures.
One last thing I'd say is this:I don't think reanimation in this kind of deck isn't very neccessary simply because you ALWAYS have board presence. Even if you don't go infinite, you can still churn out creatures far faster than anyone else unless someone's tossed a broodmother on their side.
Can someone give me a primer on how abusing persist works with Ghave? I'm pretty sure I can't sac a persist creature to him, then put the +1/+1 counter on the persist creature once it returns, can I? Can someone explain how that works?
I find that using all the infinite combos just makes my playgroup hate my deck, so I like to keep it simple. Turning tokens or huge dudes sideways seems to do the trick.
I haven't had this deck put together in a long time, so it hasn't been receiving any updates for quite a while. There are probably more recent Ghave lists if you would like to see one that is updated with Dragon's Maze cards.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
u-579's Thread
Viperesque's Thread
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
R Feldon of the Third Path EDH R
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion EDH X
B Sidisi Ad Nauseam Combo EDH B
thisany token deck, Butcher of Malakir is even worse, plus the Dictate of Erebos. Corpsejack Menace, Hardened Scales, and even Vish Kal are amazing. Mazirek and Swarm of Bloodflies are almost instant game-winners as well. Jar of Eyeballs is also something to consider, as I often sacrifice it with 16+ counters, and draw one of the cards listed above. Puppeteer Clique is a fun card to play, especially with Juniper Ranger or Cathar's Crusade. Hope this helps.