Better than Ranger's Path. Remember that you're enabling the Sharuum player to grab their Mishra's Workshop. Opponents often take the offer.
I guess it is just a metagame-based decision. Everyone I play with has unfortunately already realized the correct way to play against Tempt is to just turn it into a bad spell :/
Would it be worth the trouble to try and fit Show and Tell or Sneak Attack in?
Neither. Sneak has cute combos with Palinchron, but that's about it. You're mostly just eating card advantage in a deck that usually has plenty of mana to empty its hand with already.
As to Tempt with Discovery...it's not spectacular, given. But is Ranger's Path better? Ancient Tomb vs two tapped forests. Options for replacement include:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Somberwald Sage
Joraga Treespeaker
Ranger's Path
Xenagos, the Reveler
Orcish Lumberjack
Karn Liberated/Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Prophet of Kruphix
Neither. Sneak has cute combos with Palinchron, but that's about it. You're mostly just eating card advantage in a deck that usually has plenty of mana to empty its hand with already.
As to Tempt with Discovery...it's not spectacular, given. But is Ranger's Path better? Ancient Tomb vs two tapped forests. Options for replacement include:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Somberwald Sage
Joraga Treespeaker
Ranger's Path
Xenagos, the Reveler
Orcish Lumberjack
Karn Liberated/Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Prophet of Kruphix
Personally, I would say that two tapped forests is typically decently better than Ancient Tomb. Forests mean dual lands, so two lands (harder to disrupt than one land tapping for same qty of mana) that tap for a combination of all the colors you need. The two life is so insignificant it is essentially not worth weighing, but it still is better not to lose two life.
Of those options, though, I think the best two are Somberwald Sage (seriously, three mana of any one color is nuts for :2mana::symg: investment) and Joraga Treespeaker (comes down turn one, level and use turn two, pure profit after). Then probably Ranger's Path.
Edit: I also fully agree on sneak/show. Even if you build specifically for that deck, you probably only have 5-6 good Show targets (maybe slightly higher). Show and Tell is build to cheat the need to ramp, Wanderer is built for ramping. Philosophical disconnect between what the decks want to do, even though we do include a decent number of high-end cards. Just not enough density.
Our lists are very similar. How relevant do you find the extra turn cards?
In lieu of an AmbiDuck reply, I will throw in my two cents: they are back breaking and game-ending. There is probably no singularly more powerful theme then the extra turn theme. Not only do they allow you an extra attack phase, draw, and land drop, but you have a full turn to do whatever you want with no risk of counters. This tends to mean you can end the game, assuming a Wanderer is already in play. But they can also simply buy you time to get back into the game if necessary. Especially when combined with a little recursion, they are just the nuts. In this deck more than most.
In lieu of an AmbiDuck reply, I will throw in my two cents: they are back breaking and game-ending. There is probably no singularly more powerful theme then the extra turn theme. Not only do they allow you an extra attack phase, draw, and land drop, but you have a full turn to do whatever you want with no risk of counters. This tends to mean you can end the game, assuming a Wanderer is already in play. But they can also simply buy you time to get back into the game if necessary. Especially when combined with a little recursion, they are just the nuts. In this deck more than most.
Agreed.
Earlier in the thread, there was a question about Rhystic Study. The answer is that it's actually at home in a ramp deck. Either they restock your hand with goodies to ramp into OR they elect to fall behind in board development. Mystic Remora may even be justified in some metas.
Coupon is a smidge faster, but also more vulnerable to removal.
Basically this. My list is a bit more synergistic with some of the creature-based effects (it allows us to run Natural Order, makes Garruk Wildspeaker stronger by amplifying his overrun effect, makes Food Chain even more bonkers), but it is less resilient against removal to the early ramp guys, and less stable/able to rebuild from board wipes.
In my opinion, the choice between builds is largely a metagame call. In my meta, there are too many early-drop, threatening commanders (i.e. Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Zur the Enchanter, Rafiq of the Many, etc) for people to spot-remove my ramp guys. Additionally, both versions "go off" either the turn before or turn of access to early board wipes. This means in my build we either get to a) Wander once before a potential wipe or b) lose one ramp guy to the board wipe, leaving a very easy rebuild.
Now, if the meta changes and people start pot-shotting or countering my men, then the man-ramp plan becomes worse than the spell-ramp plan. I tend to think the man-ramp plan is a little more budget friendly as well, because all of the cards are just so darn ghetto ;P (Although I think Three Visits is the only moderately pricey card in the spell-ramp plan)
Another notable difference is our choice of finisher in the Tooth and Nail suite. Duck does Kiki/Conscripts while I do Avenger/Hoof. In my build Craterhoof is better because he goes lethal with the ramp guys even if I don't have Avenger, so he is better outside of TnN. Both are instant-wins (if not spot removal hits), but our choice in which to use is crafted by the infrastructure of our respective ramp themes.
Another notable difference is our choice of finisher in the Tooth and Nail suite. Duck does Kiki/Conscripts while I do Avenger/Hoof. In my build Craterhoof is better because he goes lethal with the ramp guys even if I don't have Avenger, so he is better outside of TnN. Both are instant-wins (if not spot removal hits), but our choice in which to use is crafted by the infrastructure of our respective ramp themes.
I agree with everything you said but this. My finisher is Palinchron-Deadeye. First you pair them and bounce the Palinchron a bunch of times for infi mana, then you pair Maelstrom and Deadeye and exile it infi times and USE the infinite mana recasting Maelstrom from the command zone. If you can't win with 3-4 turns waiting and your deck in play, you can't win. Note that you get infinite storm in the first step if desired, so Mind's Desire casts your whole deck including Eldrazi and Insurrection. So you end up with infi mana behind Deadeye-Zealous. You get infi Avenger of Zendikar triggers and you can Venser a land or two and put them from your hand onto the top of your (empty) library with Scroll Rack in order to give your land ramp spells something to find.
Kiki was in as a backup, fairer Deadeye. I've replaced it with Prophet of Kruphix. If I could cast Maelstrom, it's probably better to cast Prophet from hand first. Plus pseudo-vigilance. Plus the potential to recast Wanderer many times in a turn cycle. Still testing, but quite interesting already.
-Tempt with Discovery
-Kiki
+Somberwald Sage
+Prophet of Kruphix
I agree with everything you said but this. My finisher is Palinchron-Deadeye. First you pair them and bounce the Palinchron a bunch of times for infi mana, then you pair Maelstrom and Deadeye and exile it infi times and USE the infinite mana recasting Maelstrom from the command zone. If you can't win with 3-4 turns waiting and your deck in play, you can't win. Note that you get infinite storm in the first step if desired, so Mind's Desire casts your whole deck including Eldrazi and Insurrection. So you end up with infi mana behind Deadeye-Zealous. You get infi Avenger of Zendikar triggers and you can Venser a land or two and put them from your hand onto the top of your (empty) library with Scroll Rack in order to give your land ramp spells something to find.
Kiki was in as a backup, fairer Deadeye. I've replaced it with Prophet of Kruphix. If I could cast Maelstrom, it's probably better to cast Prophet from hand first. Plus pseudo-vigilance. Plus the potential to recast Wanderer many times in a turn cycle. Still testing, but quite interesting already.
-Tempt with Discovery
-Kiki
+Somberwald Sage
+Prophet of Kruphix
Lmao, I wish I hadn't wasted my time putting my own write-up on DEN/Chron and had just copy/pasted yours
Yeah, I had to look at it for a minute when you posted that on my thread, thinking... uh, blinking doesn't trigger cascade... but oh, the exile option.
And yeah, if you can't win after cascading your whole deck, there is a problem.
Edit: Is there a particular reason you choose Ulamog over, say, Kozilek?
Ulamog is unique in his ability to break certain hard locks and I had four of them on hand from snagging them at $10/each thanks to the FtV printing. Kozilek is probably a hair better due to the lower casting cost and the relevance of drawing more cards being higher than spot removal. I'm making the change just for variety.
The slot in my build that's most in doubt is Teferi. I've wondered a few times about switching that slot to Mystic Remora to combat the increase in ramp thanks to some of the new Commander 2013 generals. He's a combo-breaker, though, who shuts down opposing Wanderer decks.
In my meta, there are too many early-drop, threatening commanders (i.e. Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Zur the Enchanter, Rafiq of the Many, etc) for people to spot-remove my ramp guys. Additionally, both versions "go off" either the turn before or turn of access to early board wipes. This means in my build we either get to a) Wander once before a potential wipe or b) lose one ramp guy to the board wipe, leaving a very easy rebuild.
Now, if the meta changes and people start pot-shotting or countering my men, then the man-ramp plan becomes worse than the spell-ramp plan. I tend to think the man-ramp plan is a little more budget friendly as well, because all of the cards are just so darn ghetto ;P (Although I think Three Visits is the only moderately pricey card in the spell-ramp plan)
Rereading this, you might want to lower your dude count and seriously consider including Wildfire/Inferno Titan/Balefire Dragon/Thunder Dragon/Volcanic Fallout.
Rereading this, you might want to lower your dude count and seriously consider including Wildfire/Inferno Titan/Balefire Dragon/Thunder Dragon/Volcanic Fallout.
Of those guys, the only ones I find appealing are Balefire Dragon and Volcanic Fallout. The problem I face is that Edric is too fast to rely on the expensive answers, and Volcanic Fallout costs :symr::symr:, which I do not want to have to have access to by turn three.
Balefire doesn't answer the initial wave, but is a repeatable effect. He may well find his way back in. I plan to at least retest him. Inferno Titan is reusable, but underwhelming and doesn't address hexproof, so it seems a bit too narrow for a 6cmc creature.
Given the shift in my meta to accommodate for the low-cmc powerful generals, all the dicks are running Rapid Hybridization and Pongify, all the decks run Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, they all run tutors, the all run rocks, the decks have their spot removal suite... so the Wildfire option is not great for my meta. People will always have an answer. And since Thada is prevalent, she will be chilling with up to 3 mana rocks by the time I plan to go off... it's not an attractive option.
I kinda just try to let the other decks worry about stopping each other in the early game, and worry about things I can control when I can control them.
Of those guys, the only ones I find appealing are Balefire Dragon and Volcanic Fallout. The problem I face is that Edric is too fast to rely on the expensive answers, and Volcanic Fallout costs :symr::symr:, which I do not want to have to have access to by turn three.
Balefire doesn't answer the initial wave, but is a repeatable effect. He may well find his way back in. I plan to at least retest him. Inferno Titan is reusable, but underwhelming and doesn't address hexproof, so it seems a bit too narrow for a 6cmc creature.
Given the shift in my meta to accommodate for the low-cmc powerful generals, all the dicks are running Rapid Hybridization and Pongify, all the decks run Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, they all run tutors, the all run rocks, the decks have their spot removal suite... so the Wildfire option is not great for my meta. People will always have an answer. And since Thada is prevalent, she will be chilling with up to 3 mana rocks by the time I plan to go off... it's not an attractive option.
I kinda just try to let the other decks worry about stopping each other in the early game, and worry about things I can control when I can control them.
Inferno Titan is an incredible creature, even moreso against weenie decks. With various artifact/land accel it's not uncommon to cast him t3-t4. I've never been disappointed with him in hand and he always does good things when he's in play.
Inferno Titan is an incredible creature, even moreso against weenie decks. With various artifact/land accel it's not uncommon to cast him t3-t4. I've never been disappointed with him in hand and he always does good things when he's in play.
Well, Rite of Rep on just about anything ends the game. I don't play Stolen Identity, and in a vacuum, I find Inferno T to be very, very underwhelming. It's just not a good clock.
The biggest issue, here, is that those decks I mention aren't weenie decks (outside of Edric). For most of those decks, the damage is largely done by the time Titan comes down. And he doesn't help against hexproof, nor is he good against countermagic like Volcanic Fallout.
I have never been impressed with an Inferno Titan on my side or my opponent's side of the board before, I guess I just personally don't get the allure.
We have very few outlets for critter-only mana. By contrast, Thada likely generates much more mana over the course of a game AND can generate card advantage AND tutors AND can permanently exile Sharuum's combo pieces.
-Somberwald Sage
+Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Teferi is simply too good against us. Letting people clone it under the new legend rules is awful. We're answer light against developed boards and Devastation Tide answers boards in a way that is very unlikely to negatively impact us.
-Teferi, Mage of Zalfir
+Devastation Tide !!!!!! Amazing in testing all day.
Prophet of Kruphix was pretty useless, mostly because we run so few critters. Not 100% sure on what to replace it with, but Stranglehold is probably wrong. We're great at ramping and shuffling, so Future Sight can act like a bottomless hand.
-Prophet of Kruphix
+Future Sight
Future Sight has underperformed. It does the same thing as the general, but it telegraphs what's coming, sucks up more mana, and turns the table into archenemy before the threats have even been cast.
Xenagos, God of Revels is pretty interesting. It's hard to remove and turns Wanderer into a two-turn kill. Kiora's Follower is similarly interesting because of its flexibility in untapping the largest mana source available to you/turning SDT into a draw engine/pseudo-vigilance for Wanderer/screwing up opponents' combats with one another.
I saw some of the spoilers and Xenagos seems pretty nuts.
Rules question: Does recasting Wanderer from the command zone affect his cascade? Can you cascade into bigger spells later in the game at all? (Time stretch)
Jaytron: Judge here. No, his converted mana cost does not change, which is what cascade looks for. For it to work it would have to be worded similar to Prossh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I guess it is just a metagame-based decision. Everyone I play with has unfortunately already realized the correct way to play against Tempt is to just turn it into a bad spell :/
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Neither. Sneak has cute combos with Palinchron, but that's about it. You're mostly just eating card advantage in a deck that usually has plenty of mana to empty its hand with already.
As to Tempt with Discovery...it's not spectacular, given. But is Ranger's Path better? Ancient Tomb vs two tapped forests. Options for replacement include:
Lion's Eye Diamond
Somberwald Sage
Joraga Treespeaker
Ranger's Path
Xenagos, the Reveler
Orcish Lumberjack
Karn Liberated/Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Prophet of Kruphix
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Personally, I would say that two tapped forests is typically decently better than Ancient Tomb. Forests mean dual lands, so two lands (harder to disrupt than one land tapping for same qty of mana) that tap for a combination of all the colors you need. The two life is so insignificant it is essentially not worth weighing, but it still is better not to lose two life.
Of those options, though, I think the best two are Somberwald Sage (seriously, three mana of any one color is nuts for :2mana::symg: investment) and Joraga Treespeaker (comes down turn one, level and use turn two, pure profit after). Then probably Ranger's Path.
Edit: I also fully agree on sneak/show. Even if you build specifically for that deck, you probably only have 5-6 good Show targets (maybe slightly higher). Show and Tell is build to cheat the need to ramp, Wanderer is built for ramping. Philosophical disconnect between what the decks want to do, even though we do include a decent number of high-end cards. Just not enough density.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
In lieu of an AmbiDuck reply, I will throw in my two cents: they are back breaking and game-ending. There is probably no singularly more powerful theme then the extra turn theme. Not only do they allow you an extra attack phase, draw, and land drop, but you have a full turn to do whatever you want with no risk of counters. This tends to mean you can end the game, assuming a Wanderer is already in play. But they can also simply buy you time to get back into the game if necessary. Especially when combined with a little recursion, they are just the nuts. In this deck more than most.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Agreed.
Earlier in the thread, there was a question about Rhystic Study. The answer is that it's actually at home in a ramp deck. Either they restock your hand with goodies to ramp into OR they elect to fall behind in board development. Mystic Remora may even be justified in some metas.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Coupon is a smidge faster, but also more vulnerable to removal.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Basically this. My list is a bit more synergistic with some of the creature-based effects (it allows us to run Natural Order, makes Garruk Wildspeaker stronger by amplifying his overrun effect, makes Food Chain even more bonkers), but it is less resilient against removal to the early ramp guys, and less stable/able to rebuild from board wipes.
In my opinion, the choice between builds is largely a metagame call. In my meta, there are too many early-drop, threatening commanders (i.e. Thada Adel, Acquisitor, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, Zur the Enchanter, Rafiq of the Many, etc) for people to spot-remove my ramp guys. Additionally, both versions "go off" either the turn before or turn of access to early board wipes. This means in my build we either get to a) Wander once before a potential wipe or b) lose one ramp guy to the board wipe, leaving a very easy rebuild.
Now, if the meta changes and people start pot-shotting or countering my men, then the man-ramp plan becomes worse than the spell-ramp plan. I tend to think the man-ramp plan is a little more budget friendly as well, because all of the cards are just so darn ghetto ;P (Although I think Three Visits is the only moderately pricey card in the spell-ramp plan)
Another notable difference is our choice of finisher in the Tooth and Nail suite. Duck does Kiki/Conscripts while I do Avenger/Hoof. In my build Craterhoof is better because he goes lethal with the ramp guys even if I don't have Avenger, so he is better outside of TnN. Both are instant-wins (if not spot removal hits), but our choice in which to use is crafted by the infrastructure of our respective ramp themes.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I agree with everything you said but this. My finisher is Palinchron-Deadeye. First you pair them and bounce the Palinchron a bunch of times for infi mana, then you pair Maelstrom and Deadeye and exile it infi times and USE the infinite mana recasting Maelstrom from the command zone. If you can't win with 3-4 turns waiting and your deck in play, you can't win. Note that you get infinite storm in the first step if desired, so Mind's Desire casts your whole deck including Eldrazi and Insurrection. So you end up with infi mana behind Deadeye-Zealous. You get infi Avenger of Zendikar triggers and you can Venser a land or two and put them from your hand onto the top of your (empty) library with Scroll Rack in order to give your land ramp spells something to find.
Kiki was in as a backup, fairer Deadeye. I've replaced it with Prophet of Kruphix. If I could cast Maelstrom, it's probably better to cast Prophet from hand first. Plus pseudo-vigilance. Plus the potential to recast Wanderer many times in a turn cycle. Still testing, but quite interesting already.
-Tempt with Discovery
-Kiki
+Somberwald Sage
+Prophet of Kruphix
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Lmao, I wish I hadn't wasted my time putting my own write-up on DEN/Chron and had just copy/pasted yours
Yeah, I had to look at it for a minute when you posted that on my thread, thinking... uh, blinking doesn't trigger cascade... but oh, the exile option.
And yeah, if you can't win after cascading your whole deck, there is a problem.
Edit: Is there a particular reason you choose Ulamog over, say, Kozilek?
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
The slot in my build that's most in doubt is Teferi. I've wondered a few times about switching that slot to Mystic Remora to combat the increase in ramp thanks to some of the new Commander 2013 generals. He's a combo-breaker, though, who shuts down opposing Wanderer decks.
-Ulamog
+Kozilek
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
IF you flicker Venser when a spell is on the stack, can you effectively cancel it by bouncing it to their hand?
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Good lord, that's pretty ridiculous.
DEN seems to work well with most of the cards in the list because of their ETB effects too.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
Rereading this, you might want to lower your dude count and seriously consider including Wildfire/Inferno Titan/Balefire Dragon/Thunder Dragon/Volcanic Fallout.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Of those guys, the only ones I find appealing are Balefire Dragon and Volcanic Fallout. The problem I face is that Edric is too fast to rely on the expensive answers, and Volcanic Fallout costs :symr::symr:, which I do not want to have to have access to by turn three.
Balefire doesn't answer the initial wave, but is a repeatable effect. He may well find his way back in. I plan to at least retest him. Inferno Titan is reusable, but underwhelming and doesn't address hexproof, so it seems a bit too narrow for a 6cmc creature.
Given the shift in my meta to accommodate for the low-cmc powerful generals, all the dicks are running Rapid Hybridization and Pongify, all the decks run Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, they all run tutors, the all run rocks, the decks have their spot removal suite... so the Wildfire option is not great for my meta. People will always have an answer. And since Thada is prevalent, she will be chilling with up to 3 mana rocks by the time I plan to go off... it's not an attractive option.
I kinda just try to let the other decks worry about stopping each other in the early game, and worry about things I can control when I can control them.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Inferno Titan is an incredible creature, even moreso against weenie decks. With various artifact/land accel it's not uncommon to cast him t3-t4. I've never been disappointed with him in hand and he always does good things when he's in play.
Combined with cards such as Rite of Replication and Stolen Identity he is a powerhouse and can quickly end a game.
Well, Rite of Rep on just about anything ends the game. I don't play Stolen Identity, and in a vacuum, I find Inferno T to be very, very underwhelming. It's just not a good clock.
The biggest issue, here, is that those decks I mention aren't weenie decks (outside of Edric). For most of those decks, the damage is largely done by the time Titan comes down. And he doesn't help against hexproof, nor is he good against countermagic like Volcanic Fallout.
I have never been impressed with an Inferno Titan on my side or my opponent's side of the board before, I guess I just personally don't get the allure.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
We have very few outlets for critter-only mana. By contrast, Thada likely generates much more mana over the course of a game AND can generate card advantage AND tutors AND can permanently exile Sharuum's combo pieces.
-Somberwald Sage
+Thada Adel, Acquisitor
Teferi is simply too good against us. Letting people clone it under the new legend rules is awful. We're answer light against developed boards and Devastation Tide answers boards in a way that is very unlikely to negatively impact us.
-Teferi, Mage of Zalfir
+Devastation Tide !!!!!! Amazing in testing all day.
Prophet of Kruphix was pretty useless, mostly because we run so few critters. Not 100% sure on what to replace it with, but Stranglehold is probably wrong. We're great at ramping and shuffling, so Future Sight can act like a bottomless hand.
-Prophet of Kruphix
+Future Sight
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Xenagos, God of Revels is pretty interesting. It's hard to remove and turns Wanderer into a two-turn kill. Kiora's Follower is similarly interesting because of its flexibility in untapping the largest mana source available to you/turning SDT into a draw engine/pseudo-vigilance for Wanderer/screwing up opponents' combats with one another.
For right now, I'll test Kiora's Follower.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Rules question: Does recasting Wanderer from the command zone affect his cascade? Can you cascade into bigger spells later in the game at all? (Time stretch)
LegacyUBRDelverRBU