Because you already win 99% of the time that you resolve Food Chain and it isn't hit with instant speed removal. There are cards you can run that give you more than a 1% edge AND don't need another card in play to do it.
With most Lab Man combos, the combo enablers don't often win on their own. Enter the Infinite only wins if you have mana. Demonic Consultation is an extremely risky card to run by itself.
Food Chain with any reasonable number of creatures (with or without Wanderer) will win the game on its own. Wiffing after casting Wanderer with Food Chain on the board is extremely rare if you have 30+ creatures in your deck.
Honestly though, if there was ever a deck that had one or two throw-away slots for a two-card-combo, it would be this one. This deck can survive a few dead cascades; I certainly play a few (Scroll Rack, Carpet of Flowers, Llawan, Cephalid Empress). I won't fault you for playing either the Griffin or the new Eldrazi, but I wouldn't personally play either. If you want to play a combo card, Palinchron is much more powerful, as it is never a dead cascade, and can win the game on the spot occasionally. Plays well with clones, has flying so it can attack and block, and draws removal from other juicy targets (like food chain). Combos with several cards that are good on their own (Dead-Eye Navigator, Phantasmal Image, Mana Reflection, Zendikar Resurgent, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, and Animar, Soul of Elements).
Has anyone tested Time Spiral? I don't like refilling opponents hands but generally speaking we have more mana, and we can use the cards that turn. I've been missing some draw power from the deck, so it's either this, Garruk, or like Harmonize.
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Harmonize is, in my opinion, not really worth running in this deck. I have used Treasure Cruise to some success, because we don't really want to cascade into a draw three, and we also don't care about our graveyards so much. I don't play it anymore, but I I might if I feel I need another draw card. Tidings is more worth playing, but I don't play that either. Prime Speaker Zegana and Consecrated Sphinx get the job done for me.
Time Spiral is an absolute house in this deck. I play a fair number of mana doublers (Mana Reflection, Zendikar Resurgent, and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger), and a few lands that tap for more than one mana (Ancient Tomb and the terrible Temple of the False God) that obviously make it a much stronger card. However, even if it refills your opponents' hands, they will often have trouble keeping up with your threat density and mana advantage in the mid-late game. If you cascade into it, it refills your hand AND gives you mana at an unprecedented rate.
Also, it hoses graveyards, just in case you were worried about those. It is my singular piece of grave hate in my deck. I used to play Primal Command, and it could still be worth running, but I found it to be lacking in value. Much like Harmonize or Concentrate.
We don't want to cascade into draw 3??? Oh lawd Jesus, there's a fahr. That's like, exactly we want after emptying our hand to make an early Wanderer. Draw spells are my absolute favorite to hit outside of extra turns and game ending plays. But those are in limited supply, so we draw cards in order to get them. Also, if you play a bunch of mana doublers, how can you *not* want to chain card draw spells? That is precisely the payoff you need if you have excessive mana. The entire balance of a deck like this is making it so that your card draw doesn't greatly out-pace your mana and your mana doesn't out-pace your card draw. Also, I care *greatly* about my graveyard! Do you not play time walk spells? I'M SO CONFUSED o.O
Sweet, I'll definitely test out Time Spiral. I don't play any mana doublers (I often have way too much mana), but beating GY decks is nice.
????? You care about your graveyard MrCoupon? I really don't because the only recursion I have is Eternal Witness. Usually when I accidentally discard Food Chain to Gamble, I think "whelp that's never coming back". I've actually been thinking about adding Body Double or Regrowth for a smidge more recursion.
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My Cubes - The Busted Cube. A fully functional, almost 100% custom cube. The project started out by asking "What if other colors got cards on the power level of Mana Drain,Ancestral Recall, and Time Walk?" Draft and enjoy!
Full disclaimer: I don't play extra turn spells anymore because my group really does not enjoy them. I used to, for quite some time, until I also got bored of them. I do have experience playing (and winning!) with them.
There is a certain benefit from not relying on the graveyard. I understand that it is an additional resource that you can use, but we are not a graveyard deck. Not getting hosed by a card like Rest in Peace is important. I cut Eternal Witness a long time ago, because it wasn't a very good cascade, and it was a horrendous attacker. I still play Body Double and Season's Past because they are rarely dead and can be absolute bombs. Eternal Witness is also often dead in the early game (when you want to cast your 3 drops), it doesn't ramp you, and doesn't block or attack well.
Dude, I find your analysis of Eternal Witness very troubling. You promote Seasons Past as a good cascade card while saying Witness is a poor cascade. Seasons is dead every time Witness is dead. Seasons has a little more upside, but usually when I play Witness, I am winning that turn. Season's Past and Body Double are also often dead early game. Rest in Peace hoses Body Double and Season's Past just the same as it hoses Eternal Witness. Meanwhile, Witness is waaaaaaaaaay better to cast from your hand. You are correct that you don't run it out on curve, but that knowledge has been public domain since Fifth Dawn. The low cost on Witness isn't relevant because you play it early, but rather because the cost is barely a hiccup when it comes time to use it mid-turn. This card wins games. All this to say, we don't rely on our graveyard. We are not a graveyard deck. As you articulated. But, to quote you again, it is an addition resource for us to use. So I promote using it.
Now, keeping in mind that you said you don't play time walk spells, I can see the value of Witness being impacted. Whether it is diminished enough to justify removal from a list attempting for optimization seems unlikely, but I would listen to the argument. However, with this discussion taking place on a thread in which the OP list plays 5 time walk effect (6 if you include Knowledge Exploitation, since it typically is in such an environment), that seems like a discussion more appropriate for a different thread. This is not to say we can't discuss cards Duck doesn't play, I am simply recognizing an angle in which you may well be correct in regard to your list, while not trying to devolve the conversation for this list.
Next point: Plea for Power is *not* strictly better than Concentrate. It is almost exclusively worse in a metagame of competent players. Concentrate is Concentrate 100% of the time. Plea for Power is Concentrate in scenarios in which Concentrate is worse than Time Warp, and Time Warp in situations in which Time warp is worse than Concentrate. Giving your opponents the ability to dictate the modality of your spell is bad assuming good players. If assuming bad players, who cares? Relying on our opponents sucking is a poor criterion for card selection in a [competitive] list.
Of the card draw options you listed, I find significant preference to Concentrate and Harmonize over Prime Speaker Zegana (played her way out of my list, although I admittedly run fewer fatties, so I see an angle at least) and definitely over Seasons Past. I never cared much for Greater Good, which never lived up to expectations, because it is awful from behind and/or with Wanderer in check. It has greater upside, but not the consistency, nor is it as good of a tap-out-on-four-mana play. Concentrate/Harmonize fit themselves into turns, and are quite often better non-cascades than the aforementioned cards while also being good (but not great) cascades.
I definitely agree on Brainstorm and Sylvan Library being the bee's knees early, but I never cared for Rhystic Study in my build. This may be because of my glut of 3-mana effects that give back 2 mana per turn. This differs significantly from Duck's list, so this could easily be chalked up to a difference in ramp philosophy. Same reason I don't like Wildfire effects. I'll take y'all's word on Study bc I love it in other decks.
Ok, so I'm hoping I don't sound like a jerk, I don't mean to, nor do I mean to be trying to trash your input. I just try to deconstruct why I feel how I do for the sake of good discussion, I am aware that I am often wrong or miss some things that I seemingly shouldn't miss. I'm responding from work so I have less time to edit to make sure I'm not phrasing stuff rudely.
Dude, I find your analysis of Eternal Witness very troubling. You promote Seasons Past as a good cascade card while saying Witness is a poor cascade. Seasons is dead every time Witness is dead. Seasons has a little more upside, but usually when I play Witness, I am winning that turn. Season's Past and Body Double are also often dead early game. Rest in Peace hoses Body Double and Season's Past just the same as it hoses Eternal Witness. Meanwhile, Witness is waaaaaaaaaay better to cast from your hand. You are correct that you don't run it out on curve, but that knowledge has been public domain since Fifth Dawn. The low cost on Witness isn't relevant because you play it early, but rather because the cost is barely a hiccup when it comes time to use it mid-turn. This card wins games. All this to say, we don't rely on our graveyard. We are not a graveyard deck. As you articulated. But, to quote you again, it is an addition resource for us to use. So I promote using it.
Now, keeping in mind that you said you don't play time walk spells, I can see the value of Witness being impacted. Whether it is diminished enough to justify removal from a list attempting for optimization seems unlikely, but I would listen to the argument. However, with this discussion taking place on a thread in which the OP list plays 5 time walk effect (6 if you include Knowledge Exploitation, since it typically is in such an environment), that seems like a discussion more appropriate for a different thread. This is not to say we can't discuss cards Duck doesn't play, I am simply recognizing an angle in which you may well be correct in regard to your list, while not trying to devolve the conversation for this list.
Next point: Plea for Power is *not* strictly better than Concentrate. It is almost exclusively worse in a metagame of competent players. Concentrate is Concentrate 100% of the time. Plea for Power is Concentrate in scenarios in which Concentrate is worse than Time Warp, and Time Warp in situations in which Time warp is worse than Concentrate. Giving your opponents the ability to dictate the modality of your spell is bad assuming good players. If assuming bad players, who cares? Relying on our opponents sucking is a poor criterion for card selection in a [competitive] list.
Of the card draw options you listed, I find significant preference to Concentrate and Harmonize over Prime Speaker Zegana (played her way out of my list, although I admittedly run fewer fatties, so I see an angle at least) and definitely over Seasons Past. I never cared much for Greater Good, which never lived up to expectations, because it is awful from behind and/or with Wanderer in check. It has greater upside, but not the consistency, nor is it as good of a tap-out-on-four-mana play. Concentrate/Harmonize fit themselves into turns, and are quite often better non-cascades than the aforementioned cards while also being good (but not great) cascades.
I definitely agree on Brainstorm and Sylvan Library being the bee's knees early, but I never cared for Rhystic Study in my build. This may be because of my glut of 3-mana effects that give back 2 mana per turn. This differs significantly from Duck's list, so this could easily be chalked up to a difference in ramp philosophy. Same reason I don't like Wildfire effects. I'll take y'all's word on Study bc I love it in other decks.
Ok, so I'm hoping I don't sound like a jerk, I don't mean to, nor do I mean to be trying to trash your input. I just try to deconstruct why I feel how I do for the sake of good discussion, I am aware that I am often wrong or miss some things that I seemingly shouldn't miss. I'm responding from work so I have less time to edit to make sure I'm not phrasing stuff rudely.
Alrighty, I'm going to try to break this down, and hopefully, clarify.
In my current build, which I have been playing and curating for 3+ years now, there is a tone of more 'fun' spells. This is because in the past I played the most cut-throat version of the deck that I could possibly devise. I played that for about a year until I realized that I was actually having more fun and winning more games against competent players when I de-powered the deck and put in more unique, non-typical cards. The philosophy changed, my playstyle changed, and I won more games. A huge factor that justified this overhaul was the change in the mulligan rule from Partial Paris, but alas, we that Wander know all too well that beaten path.
Point is, I know what it is like to play the cut-throat deck and have some legitimate input on the matter.
Time Warp is a powerful, game-breaking card. Worst case, it eats a counterspell. Medium case, you get an essentially free card to draw and an extra combat step. Best case, you win the game. If you want to win as fast as possible, at first glance, time warp is what you really want to be doing. How many extra turn effects is another story, as by themselves, they don't advance your game-plan pre-wander as much as some other spells. They don't interact with your opponent when you are behind, they don't ramp (well), and don't stop your opponents from combo-ing out on t4. If I were to build an 'optimal' deck today, I would probably play the big 3, but no others.
In this style deck, that is attempting to combo out as ASAP, Eternal Witness plays a solid role. Pairing with Dead-Eye Navigator, will win the game, if you have 7 permanent mana and no interaction from your opponents. As a value creature that rebuys a fetchland or Mana Drain, its a decent option. Overall, I think the Witness is a good card, and I would not fault you for including it. I just choose not to, because I hate flipping that card on cascades.
You are correct that my argument seems to contradict itself. I claim that I do not want to rely too heavily on the graveyard as a resource, and then immediately site two cards that do just that. In my deck, I want every card to be at least +2 card advantage, or +2 permanent mana, or be incredibly difficult for my opponents to deal with. Eternal Witness is a 2-for-1, or +1 card advantage cast from hand or +2 when cascaded. However, cards in hand are not worth nearly as much as cards on the battlefield, so I prefer her forms of card advantage. Also, in the early game, I want all of my low mana-cards to get me closer to Maelstrom Wanderer ASAP, and I do not believe that Eternal Witness helps me in this.
I may have talked myself into a corner on this issue, and I may have just convinced myself to play Witness again. This is confusing.
Plea for Power is better than Concentrate because it is easier to cast. Also, you can occasionally politik two allies to help you defeat a the guy that is about to combo off. And I would also argue that there are very, very few situations in which drawing 3 cards is better than taking an extra turn, so most 'rational' opponents will just give you the cards.
I would rather play all of the Ranger's Path variants over Harmonize. Mana is more important than cards in a deck like this. Our top-decks are pretty live, and can often out-midrange many 'fair' decks. Against 'combo' decks, getting more mana is often more important because you need to race them to the finish, and one single removal spell is often not enough to stop them.
I certainly respect your credentials. I also respect a changing philosophy towards Magic, the deck itself, and how subtle changes to playstyle can reap massive rewards. For me, when I sit down in a group that represents two esper Doomsdays decks, Hermit Druid, Edric, Thada, Rafiq, and Marath all fully built as well as many other fine options, I will rarely find myself with the most or even second most threatening pile of cardboard at the table come time to roll dice. So I spare no worry to the 70% rule or whatever, and am looking to make the most powerful card-for-card list I can that fits my playstyle.
As far as Witness, not to beat a potentially dead or dying horse, I agree that it doesn't fit into a role that fulfills our "rule of thumb". To me Witness is proof that rules get broken for the betterment of our deck. Versatility is so important in an unpredictable format.
In terms of Harmonize vs. Ranger's Path, I run Hunting Wilds, Ranger's Path, and of course Skyshroud Claim. I used to run Explosive Vag as well, but after a few years my testing indicated I did not want the last copy, as I too frequently hit just ramp and not cards. I originally kept Vag in over... either Wilds or Path because I wanted access to basics in case of Back to Basics or a Blood Moon effect, but ended up finding that one lousy card didn't do enough to fight them to justify it over smooth mana. But I wouldn't strongly argue against using all four, they just didn't end up making it in my list. What I don't get here is that you say you feel the need for another draw spell yet still contest that mana is more important than cards. Balance is far more important than either. Mana without cards is useless, as are cards without mana. My tuning led me to cut one of the four mana two land fetchers. The more draw you hit, the more ramp you find.
Interestingly, I find myself fairly frequently in situations in which my opponents would happily give me a turn over more cards. Most typically I want the turn, but it isn't 80/20 or anything that crazy. If I were to invent an arbitrary ratio, I'd guess 60/40 or 65/35 in favor of time Magic. Most decks I play against have access to Oblivion Stone. After a Stone, I almost always prefer 3 cards. Or about any board wipe, for that matter. Or any time I empty out the hand asap for Wanderer and hit a couple ramp pieces and no content (or simply insufficient content) on the cascades. A direct example (which is admittedly a far weaker argument than a philosophical or mathematical point) was on Wednesday, in a game in which I kept an opening draw of fetch, Island, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, Ranger's Path, Concentrate, and... some other stuff, pretty sure Tooth and Nail and Food Chain were my other two after drawing for the turn. No... there was a Trinket Mage... anyway, t1 fetch Trop, Sol Ring, Monolith, pass. I was going last. Guy who goes before me is on Rafiq, dropped Mana Crypt, Rec Saged my Grim, Strip Mined my land, and passed. I finally hit mana to cast Concentrate. At this point, they would have gladly given me a free turn. It would have accomplished 1/3 of my Concentrate. This particular example is not proof of anything, but maybe it stirs up memories of playing from behind? I can't be the only one who doesn't just come out and curb-stomp my whole playgroup every game.
As for time magic, which do you consider the big 3? I don't have a Capture of Jingzhou or I would run it. Temporal Manipulation and Time Warp constitute the functional reprints. But to bypass Time Stretch seems to me to be a grievous error if we are going that route. Also, Walk the Aeons is the best cascade of them all and can be recurred, and Temporal Mastery is Time Walk if you miracle. The exile sucks, and seeing it in the opener is the worst, so I see the argument to not play it. Then again, Brainstorm became MUCH stronger with the rule change.
I also question that you only want three time magic spells if you feel they are so significantly stronger than drawing three cards. If you feel stopping at three is the proper balancing point, I understand (although obviously viewing my list will show I disagree), but if we are simply viewing effects in a vacuum it is confusing. Unless you very much devalue drawing three cards compared to mine valuation of such an effect (which I would surmise appears to be true from the conversation thus far).
As you can see, I'm trying Twin combos as my kill-con. It's pretty easy to Food Chain into them since there's so much redundancy, and having something like Twin on Glen Elendra is pretty good. Am I missing anything important?
I also feel like a Kiki/Splinter Twin list should run Chord of Calling. It's a pretty dead cascade (like the deadest ever), but with the amount of mana we can generate it should be able to get there a lot of the time. Never played a dedicated twin list though, so take my advice with a grain of salt
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That deck looks like it would be much stronger as Animar, Soul of Elements. If you are going to play a combo deck, Animar is much faster, more consistent, but easier to hate out. However, most of the things that stop Animar, also stop Wanderer, sooooo
I know we can't cascade into it like Blatant Thievery but it isn't one of those spells that once you resolve it you win the game on the spot? or is it just another flashy spell?
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Legacy URGBOops all my spellsBGRU URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~ BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
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I think Selvala's Charge is the real winner from this set. At a minimum, it gives you another (critter-specific) cascade, but it can be cast earlier and cannot fail to have some sort of amplifying effect.
Expropriate is very strong. Blatant Thievery with a built-in Time Warp.
I think Selvala's Charge is the real winner from this set. At a minimum, it gives you another (critter-specific) cascade, but it can be cast earlier and cannot fail to have some sort of amplifying effect.
Expropriate is very strong. Blatant Thievery with a built-in Time Warp.
I need to update my list with these and Emrakul.
I picked up your list of the deck few months ago and i'm really enjoying it a lot. Please update the frontlist if you have any other changes or if you're testing some specific other card. And thanks for putting this together!
Just 1 thing about Selvala's stampede, i actually think this inclusion will force us to switch sakura tribe with another 2 mana ramp spell as a bad target for Selvala's.
Expropriate is nuts!
I recently switched my more 'casual' list into a more 'competitive' for a few weeks now. I really liked the increased speed and inevitability, and my playgroup has adapted appropriately. I added a bunch of unorthodox cards to help combat my playgroups' fast decks. Specifically, I needed more cards that I could play earlier in the game so that I could interact in case the ramp plan didn't work well. We have a stronger late game than basically any other deck, so I had to slow them down just a bit. Also, having answers to stax decks is very helpful. Scavenging Ooze has been a must for me. I couldn't find another alternative grave hate card that could come down early. I think I want one more grave hate card. Gilded Drake helped against commander-centric decks like Zur the Enchanter, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, the new Leovold, Emissary of Trest and a raw Hermit Druid. Stealing their guy is much more effective than destroying it, and 2 mana is hard to beat. Llawan, Cephalid Empress has been a godsend against many decks, especially Animar, Soul of Elements, Zur, Sharuum the Hegemon, Azami, Lady of Scrolls and such. It also helps that it deters clones, as that card is a real beating against us. Trygon Predator has overperformed, especially against stax and artifact based decks. Being able to kill a Smokestack or Mana Crypt with a card that is not embarrassing to cascade into has been awesome. Also, hitting Null Rod or Torpor Orb has helped me win a few games. Planar Chaos and Possibility Storm really hurt combo decks. Since we are more of a value-driven mid-range deck that incidentally combos, and we generally cast more spells than our opponents throughout a game, we can end up way ahead. Also, people really don't like killing Planar Chaos in hopes that it counters opponents' spells! Also, throwing in Void Winnower really makes you feel more like a stax deck. Pathbreaker Ibex and Scourge of the Throne still kill out of nowhere, and are worth playing. These are top quality threats that are also not extremely expensive. They end the game very quickly, and often on the turn you cast them, especially if you cascade into them. Malignus is still awesome. Having a cheap, high powered creature has often lead to awkward situations for opponents. One clone of my favorite elemental spirit forces chump blocks early in the game, or removal. He interacts favorably with Pathbreaker Ibex (overkill!), Garruk, Primal Hunter, the new Silvala, Heart of the Wilds, and a few others. He is definitely one creature that makes the starting life totals look silly. Also, gets around Spore Frog and Glacial Chasm. Titania, Protector of Argoth really stops many stax strategies, which are typically very strong against this deck. It also helps rebuy fetches and Strip Mine and friends.
I tried out Dream Halls as Food Chain number 2. Wow. That card is bonkers. I'm very, very surprised I've never seen anyone else suggest this card for this deck. Yes, its dangerous and can backfire. But it lets us go off much earlier, and with any amount of card draw (Rhystic Study, Cold-Eyed Selkie, Edric, Spymaster of Trest) you can do very, very unfair things.
I felt that I really wanted one over the top spell, and I tried Omniscience out for a while. It was ok, and definitely not necessary. However, this deck does tend to hit 10 mana and resolving that spell typically ends the game. Its not hard to dig for a Time Warp and immediately forcing a consession.
I'll have a tournament report and a list up later if anyone is interested.
Kaladesh look like it may have some things of use to Wanderer.
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: I could definitely see this being part of a wanderer list. It could allow us to cast additional ramp spells for free. With some of the top deck manipulation in wanderer, we can help ensure that it does trigger. At the bare minimum, it provides additional card advantage.
Panharmonicon: We do have quite a few cards with ETB effects. This card would let us abuse them even more
Kaladesh look like it may have some things of use to Wanderer.
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: I could definitely see this being part of a wanderer list. It could allow us to cast additional ramp spells for free. With some of the top deck manipulation in wanderer, we can help ensure that it does trigger. At the bare minimum, it provides additional card advantage.
Panharmonicon: We do have quite a few cards with ETB effects. This card would let us abuse them even more
Thoughts?
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: At the bare minimum this card does nothing as you play it and it dies to removal. Don't get me wrong - its an interesting card with a powerful effect but it requires building around which is unfortunate as the "core" of the deck is already pretty set in stone.
Panharmonicon: Is probably busted as hell, but is a dead card on his own and a terrible cascade.
I think both cards has way too little immediate effect for Wanderer and both are dead cascades on their own. I feel a truly competitive wanderer list consists of only from ramp, card advantage and immediate "must deal" threats.
I'm not actively updating this list. I don't think Wanderer is competitive anymore since you can't exploit the mulligan rules. You can't just look around the table and mull away hate/threats that don't pressure the table you're sitting at. Since you have to build for the meta you expect (and doubly so since your commander adds variance), you have to do just that. I don't think you have any business bringing this commander to a table that's guaranteed to have a Hermit Druid player.
I know you are not actively updating this list. I did wonder if you would recommend running every extra turn effect that costs seven or less mana to cast?
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https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Food Chain with any reasonable number of creatures (with or without Wanderer) will win the game on its own. Wiffing after casting Wanderer with Food Chain on the board is extremely rare if you have 30+ creatures in your deck.
Honestly though, if there was ever a deck that had one or two throw-away slots for a two-card-combo, it would be this one. This deck can survive a few dead cascades; I certainly play a few (Scroll Rack, Carpet of Flowers, Llawan, Cephalid Empress). I won't fault you for playing either the Griffin or the new Eldrazi, but I wouldn't personally play either. If you want to play a combo card, Palinchron is much more powerful, as it is never a dead cascade, and can win the game on the spot occasionally. Plays well with clones, has flying so it can attack and block, and draws removal from other juicy targets (like food chain). Combos with several cards that are good on their own (Dead-Eye Navigator, Phantasmal Image, Mana Reflection, Zendikar Resurgent, Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger, and Animar, Soul of Elements).
Overall, I would play another Fyndhorn Elves.
Has anyone tested Time Spiral? I don't like refilling opponents hands but generally speaking we have more mana, and we can use the cards that turn. I've been missing some draw power from the deck, so it's either this, Garruk, or like Harmonize.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
Time Spiral is an absolute house in this deck. I play a fair number of mana doublers (Mana Reflection, Zendikar Resurgent, and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger), and a few lands that tap for more than one mana (Ancient Tomb and the terrible Temple of the False God) that obviously make it a much stronger card. However, even if it refills your opponents' hands, they will often have trouble keeping up with your threat density and mana advantage in the mid-late game. If you cascade into it, it refills your hand AND gives you mana at an unprecedented rate.
Also, it hoses graveyards, just in case you were worried about those. It is my singular piece of grave hate in my deck. I used to play Primal Command, and it could still be worth running, but I found it to be lacking in value. Much like Harmonize or Concentrate.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
????? You care about your graveyard MrCoupon? I really don't because the only recursion I have is Eternal Witness. Usually when I accidentally discard Food Chain to Gamble, I think "whelp that's never coming back". I've actually been thinking about adding Body Double or Regrowth for a smidge more recursion.
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
I like drawing cards, I just don't think a draw 3 for 4 is worth it in this deck, especially when you can draw 5 or more. I don't really want to ever hard-cast Harmonize when I can have a clone or ramp instead. I don't want to cascade into Concentrate (or the strictly better Plea for Power) when I can add to the boardstate instead. Cards on battlefield > Cards in hand. Arcanis, the Omnipotent, Consecrated Sphinx, Garruk Primal Hunter, Prime Speaker Zegana, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Recurring Insight, Greater Good, and Season's Past are all superior cascade options. Brainstorm, Rhystic Study, and Sylvan Library are all superior pre-Wanderer options. The way I see it, there aren't enough slots for a card like Harmonize.
There is a certain benefit from not relying on the graveyard. I understand that it is an additional resource that you can use, but we are not a graveyard deck. Not getting hosed by a card like Rest in Peace is important. I cut Eternal Witness a long time ago, because it wasn't a very good cascade, and it was a horrendous attacker. I still play Body Double and Season's Past because they are rarely dead and can be absolute bombs. Eternal Witness is also often dead in the early game (when you want to cast your 3 drops), it doesn't ramp you, and doesn't block or attack well.
Now, keeping in mind that you said you don't play time walk spells, I can see the value of Witness being impacted. Whether it is diminished enough to justify removal from a list attempting for optimization seems unlikely, but I would listen to the argument. However, with this discussion taking place on a thread in which the OP list plays 5 time walk effect (6 if you include Knowledge Exploitation, since it typically is in such an environment), that seems like a discussion more appropriate for a different thread. This is not to say we can't discuss cards Duck doesn't play, I am simply recognizing an angle in which you may well be correct in regard to your list, while not trying to devolve the conversation for this list.
Next point: Plea for Power is *not* strictly better than Concentrate. It is almost exclusively worse in a metagame of competent players. Concentrate is Concentrate 100% of the time. Plea for Power is Concentrate in scenarios in which Concentrate is worse than Time Warp, and Time Warp in situations in which Time warp is worse than Concentrate. Giving your opponents the ability to dictate the modality of your spell is bad assuming good players. If assuming bad players, who cares? Relying on our opponents sucking is a poor criterion for card selection in a [competitive] list.
Of the card draw options you listed, I find significant preference to Concentrate and Harmonize over Prime Speaker Zegana (played her way out of my list, although I admittedly run fewer fatties, so I see an angle at least) and definitely over Seasons Past. I never cared much for Greater Good, which never lived up to expectations, because it is awful from behind and/or with Wanderer in check. It has greater upside, but not the consistency, nor is it as good of a tap-out-on-four-mana play. Concentrate/Harmonize fit themselves into turns, and are quite often better non-cascades than the aforementioned cards while also being good (but not great) cascades.
I definitely agree on Brainstorm and Sylvan Library being the bee's knees early, but I never cared for Rhystic Study in my build. This may be because of my glut of 3-mana effects that give back 2 mana per turn. This differs significantly from Duck's list, so this could easily be chalked up to a difference in ramp philosophy. Same reason I don't like Wildfire effects. I'll take y'all's word on Study bc I love it in other decks.
Ok, so I'm hoping I don't sound like a jerk, I don't mean to, nor do I mean to be trying to trash your input. I just try to deconstruct why I feel how I do for the sake of good discussion, I am aware that I am often wrong or miss some things that I seemingly shouldn't miss. I'm responding from work so I have less time to edit to make sure I'm not phrasing stuff rudely.
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
Alrighty, I'm going to try to break this down, and hopefully, clarify.
In my current build, which I have been playing and curating for 3+ years now, there is a tone of more 'fun' spells. This is because in the past I played the most cut-throat version of the deck that I could possibly devise. I played that for about a year until I realized that I was actually having more fun and winning more games against competent players when I de-powered the deck and put in more unique, non-typical cards. The philosophy changed, my playstyle changed, and I won more games. A huge factor that justified this overhaul was the change in the mulligan rule from Partial Paris, but alas, we that Wander know all too well that beaten path.
Point is, I know what it is like to play the cut-throat deck and have some legitimate input on the matter.
Time Warp is a powerful, game-breaking card. Worst case, it eats a counterspell. Medium case, you get an essentially free card to draw and an extra combat step. Best case, you win the game. If you want to win as fast as possible, at first glance, time warp is what you really want to be doing. How many extra turn effects is another story, as by themselves, they don't advance your game-plan pre-wander as much as some other spells. They don't interact with your opponent when you are behind, they don't ramp (well), and don't stop your opponents from combo-ing out on t4. If I were to build an 'optimal' deck today, I would probably play the big 3, but no others.
In this style deck, that is attempting to combo out as ASAP, Eternal Witness plays a solid role. Pairing with Dead-Eye Navigator, will win the game, if you have 7 permanent mana and no interaction from your opponents. As a value creature that rebuys a fetchland or Mana Drain, its a decent option. Overall, I think the Witness is a good card, and I would not fault you for including it. I just choose not to, because I hate flipping that card on cascades.
You are correct that my argument seems to contradict itself. I claim that I do not want to rely too heavily on the graveyard as a resource, and then immediately site two cards that do just that. In my deck, I want every card to be at least +2 card advantage, or +2 permanent mana, or be incredibly difficult for my opponents to deal with. Eternal Witness is a 2-for-1, or +1 card advantage cast from hand or +2 when cascaded. However, cards in hand are not worth nearly as much as cards on the battlefield, so I prefer her forms of card advantage. Also, in the early game, I want all of my low mana-cards to get me closer to Maelstrom Wanderer ASAP, and I do not believe that Eternal Witness helps me in this.
I may have talked myself into a corner on this issue, and I may have just convinced myself to play Witness again. This is confusing.
Plea for Power is better than Concentrate because it is easier to cast. Also, you can occasionally politik two allies to help you defeat a the guy that is about to combo off. And I would also argue that there are very, very few situations in which drawing 3 cards is better than taking an extra turn, so most 'rational' opponents will just give you the cards.
I would rather play all of the Ranger's Path variants over Harmonize. Mana is more important than cards in a deck like this. Our top-decks are pretty live, and can often out-midrange many 'fair' decks. Against 'combo' decks, getting more mana is often more important because you need to race them to the finish, and one single removal spell is often not enough to stop them.
As far as Witness, not to beat a potentially dead or dying horse, I agree that it doesn't fit into a role that fulfills our "rule of thumb". To me Witness is proof that rules get broken for the betterment of our deck. Versatility is so important in an unpredictable format.
In terms of Harmonize vs. Ranger's Path, I run Hunting Wilds, Ranger's Path, and of course Skyshroud Claim. I used to run Explosive Vag as well, but after a few years my testing indicated I did not want the last copy, as I too frequently hit just ramp and not cards. I originally kept Vag in over... either Wilds or Path because I wanted access to basics in case of Back to Basics or a Blood Moon effect, but ended up finding that one lousy card didn't do enough to fight them to justify it over smooth mana. But I wouldn't strongly argue against using all four, they just didn't end up making it in my list. What I don't get here is that you say you feel the need for another draw spell yet still contest that mana is more important than cards. Balance is far more important than either. Mana without cards is useless, as are cards without mana. My tuning led me to cut one of the four mana two land fetchers. The more draw you hit, the more ramp you find.
Interestingly, I find myself fairly frequently in situations in which my opponents would happily give me a turn over more cards. Most typically I want the turn, but it isn't 80/20 or anything that crazy. If I were to invent an arbitrary ratio, I'd guess 60/40 or 65/35 in favor of time Magic. Most decks I play against have access to Oblivion Stone. After a Stone, I almost always prefer 3 cards. Or about any board wipe, for that matter. Or any time I empty out the hand asap for Wanderer and hit a couple ramp pieces and no content (or simply insufficient content) on the cascades. A direct example (which is admittedly a far weaker argument than a philosophical or mathematical point) was on Wednesday, in a game in which I kept an opening draw of fetch, Island, Sol Ring, Grim Monolith, Ranger's Path, Concentrate, and... some other stuff, pretty sure Tooth and Nail and Food Chain were my other two after drawing for the turn. No... there was a Trinket Mage... anyway, t1 fetch Trop, Sol Ring, Monolith, pass. I was going last. Guy who goes before me is on Rafiq, dropped Mana Crypt, Rec Saged my Grim, Strip Mined my land, and passed. I finally hit mana to cast Concentrate. At this point, they would have gladly given me a free turn. It would have accomplished 1/3 of my Concentrate. This particular example is not proof of anything, but maybe it stirs up memories of playing from behind? I can't be the only one who doesn't just come out and curb-stomp my whole playgroup every game.
As for time magic, which do you consider the big 3? I don't have a Capture of Jingzhou or I would run it. Temporal Manipulation and Time Warp constitute the functional reprints. But to bypass Time Stretch seems to me to be a grievous error if we are going that route. Also, Walk the Aeons is the best cascade of them all and can be recurred, and Temporal Mastery is Time Walk if you miracle. The exile sucks, and seeing it in the opener is the worst, so I see the argument to not play it. Then again, Brainstorm became MUCH stronger with the rule change.
I also question that you only want three time magic spells if you feel they are so significantly stronger than drawing three cards. If you feel stopping at three is the proper balancing point, I understand (although obviously viewing my list will show I disagree), but if we are simply viewing effects in a vacuum it is confusing. Unless you very much devalue drawing three cards compared to mine valuation of such an effect (which I would surmise appears to be true from the conversation thus far).
[EDH] Rafiq of the Many
[EDH]Chainer, Dementia Master
[EDH] Maelstrom Wanderer
1x Maelstrom Wanderer
//Land (36)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Flooded Strand
7x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Island
1x Karplusan Forest
1x Mana Confluence
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Shivan Reef
1x Stomping Ground
1x Taiga
1x Tropical Island
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volcanic Island
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Yavimaya Coast
//Artifact (6)
1x Birthing Pod
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sol Ring
1x Arbor Elf
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Bloom Tender
1x Bounding Krasis
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Misthollow Griffin
1x Orcish Lumberjack
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Priest of Titania
1x Rattleclaw Mystic
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Shaman of Forgotten Ways
1x Somberwald Sage
1x Sylvan Caryatid
1x Treasonous Ogre
1x Wood Elves
1x Zealous Conscripts
//Instant (8)
1x Brainstorm
1x Crop Rotation
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Long-Term Plans
1x Mana Drain
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Nature's Claim
1x Worldly Tutor
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
//Sorcery (16)
1x Blatant Thievery
1x Bribery
1x Farseek
1x Jokulhaups
1x Nature's Lore
1x Personal Tutor
1x Ponder
1x Ranger's Path
1x Search for Tomorrow
1x Skyshroud Claim
1x Sylvan Tutor
1x Temporal Mastery
1x Three Visits
1x Time Warp
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Walk the Aeons
//Enchantment (7)
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Exploration
1x Food Chain
1x Frontier Siege
1x Mystic Remora
1x Rhystic Study
1x Splinter Twin
As you can see, I'm trying Twin combos as my kill-con. It's pretty easy to Food Chain into them since there's so much redundancy, and having something like Twin on Glen Elendra is pretty good. Am I missing anything important?
Jarad Graveyard Combo[Primer]!
Sidisi ANT!
Playing Commander to Win - A guide on Competitive, 4-player EDH
LandDestruction.com - An EDH blog
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
Regular 450 unpowered cube (with some custom cards) - 450 Unpowered
I know we can't cascade into it like Blatant Thievery but it isn't one of those spells that once you resolve it you win the game on the spot? or is it just another flashy spell?
URGBOops all my spellsBGRU
URBYoung GrixisBRU
~Commander~
BUDralnu/ReanimatorUB
GRUMaelstroM WanderiNgURG
GBMerengue Clan of SalsaBG
UTalrand PolymorphishU
UAzami, Lady of CAU
BRWZurgo, Worldslayer BearerWRB
BWUMerieke Ri Berit UWB
UVendilion CliqueU
Modern:U Mono-U TroN U
Expropriate is very strong. Blatant Thievery with a built-in Time Warp.
I need to update my list with these and Emrakul.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420
I picked up your list of the deck few months ago and i'm really enjoying it a lot. Please update the frontlist if you have any other changes or if you're testing some specific other card. And thanks for putting this together!
Just 1 thing about Selvala's stampede, i actually think this inclusion will force us to switch sakura tribe with another 2 mana ramp spell as a bad target for Selvala's.
Expropriate is nuts!
Scavenging Ooze has been a must for me. I couldn't find another alternative grave hate card that could come down early. I think I want one more grave hate card.
Gilded Drake helped against commander-centric decks like Zur the Enchanter, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, the new Leovold, Emissary of Trest and a raw Hermit Druid. Stealing their guy is much more effective than destroying it, and 2 mana is hard to beat.
Llawan, Cephalid Empress has been a godsend against many decks, especially Animar, Soul of Elements, Zur, Sharuum the Hegemon, Azami, Lady of Scrolls and such. It also helps that it deters clones, as that card is a real beating against us.
Trygon Predator has overperformed, especially against stax and artifact based decks. Being able to kill a Smokestack or Mana Crypt with a card that is not embarrassing to cascade into has been awesome. Also, hitting Null Rod or Torpor Orb has helped me win a few games.
Planar Chaos and Possibility Storm really hurt combo decks. Since we are more of a value-driven mid-range deck that incidentally combos, and we generally cast more spells than our opponents throughout a game, we can end up way ahead. Also, people really don't like killing Planar Chaos in hopes that it counters opponents' spells! Also, throwing in Void Winnower really makes you feel more like a stax deck.
Pathbreaker Ibex and Scourge of the Throne still kill out of nowhere, and are worth playing. These are top quality threats that are also not extremely expensive. They end the game very quickly, and often on the turn you cast them, especially if you cascade into them.
Malignus is still awesome. Having a cheap, high powered creature has often lead to awkward situations for opponents. One clone of my favorite elemental spirit forces chump blocks early in the game, or removal. He interacts favorably with Pathbreaker Ibex (overkill!), Garruk, Primal Hunter, the new Silvala, Heart of the Wilds, and a few others. He is definitely one creature that makes the starting life totals look silly. Also, gets around Spore Frog and Glacial Chasm.
Titania, Protector of Argoth really stops many stax strategies, which are typically very strong against this deck. It also helps rebuy fetches and Strip Mine and friends.
I tried out Dream Halls as Food Chain number 2. Wow. That card is bonkers. I'm very, very surprised I've never seen anyone else suggest this card for this deck. Yes, its dangerous and can backfire. But it lets us go off much earlier, and with any amount of card draw (Rhystic Study, Cold-Eyed Selkie, Edric, Spymaster of Trest) you can do very, very unfair things.
I felt that I really wanted one over the top spell, and I tried Omniscience out for a while. It was ok, and definitely not necessary. However, this deck does tend to hit 10 mana and resolving that spell typically ends the game. Its not hard to dig for a Time Warp and immediately forcing a consession.
I'll have a tournament report and a list up later if anyone is interested.
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: I could definitely see this being part of a wanderer list. It could allow us to cast additional ramp spells for free. With some of the top deck manipulation in wanderer, we can help ensure that it does trigger. At the bare minimum, it provides additional card advantage.
Panharmonicon: We do have quite a few cards with ETB effects. This card would let us abuse them even more
Thoughts?
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: At the bare minimum this card does nothing as you play it and it dies to removal. Don't get me wrong - its an interesting card with a powerful effect but it requires building around which is unfortunate as the "core" of the deck is already pretty set in stone.
Panharmonicon: Is probably busted as hell, but is a dead card on his own and a terrible cascade.
I think both cards has way too little immediate effect for Wanderer and both are dead cascades on their own. I feel a truly competitive wanderer list consists of only from ramp, card advantage and immediate "must deal" threats.
https://www.cubecobra.com/cube/list/p420