At first glance, it seems like you're going to have a lot of dead cards when creature targets are scarce. Your General isn't going to be swinging for lethal at any point, so you're basically digging for a combo, and other than Bloodchief Ascension and Mindcrank, I'm having difficulty finding one that actually wins a game. It'll take a very, very large Exsanguinate to kill off players, especially if you're keeping their reliable creature sources of damage to each other off the field. I definitely recommend adding both black Planeswalkers in, since both are capable of doing some nice game-winning things with creatures off the field.
You may want to add some more tutors so you can find a win condition when you need one: Demonic Tutor might be out of your price range, but Demonic Collusion and Beseech the Queen probably aren't.
I'd also suggest trying to add a little more card advantage in there: if you can get some draw, you'll have a lot of kill spells in hand as well as being able to find something to win with faster. Mind's Eye is a really strong one, Ambition's Cost is a great one-shot draw, and I'd personally recommend the underrated Journeyer's Kite. Fairly cheap, lets you hit land drops consistently (increasing the power of your X spells), and thins all the lands out of your deck so you're just drawing business.
Lastly, I feel like there are some cards that are just going to underperform.
- Planeswalker's Scorn: Might be good for hitting small creatures, but it's tough to consistently hit 6-drops, and it's not really that mana-efficient, and they could always leave lands in hand to repeatedly blank it.
- Rancid Earth: Are you running this for the single land destruction or the threshold effect? I guess I can see this as a way to hit utility lands, but it doesn't really feel like they'd pose all that much of a threat to you, and the card seems like it will be dead or not very effective a lot of the time.
-Festering March: You have quite a few sweepers in here, I'm pretty sure this won't come in handy all that often, and it's really expensive for what it actually does.
I absolutely agree on some of your statements. I played the deck and found that I had plenty of removal in hand with nothing to target. I'm pulling some of the more-expensive/less-effective removal.
I disagree on the deck not having any way to kill other than combo - there are quite a few burn/life loss cards in there (granted, the combos are the main way). The game I played, I burned out all three of my opponents with Underworld Dreams, Sorin's Vengeance, Profane Command (I had thrown it in right before the match), and of all things, a Smallpox for the final one damage to one player. That being said, obviously the deck would benefit from cards like Sorin Markov and Liliana Vess. They're both on my wanted list. And I can't wait to see Liliana's new card in Innistrad.
I disagree on the deck not having any way to kill other than combo - there are quite a few burn/life loss cards in there (granted, the combos are the main way). The game I played, I burned out all three of my opponents with Underworld Dreams, Sorin's Vengeance, Profane Command (I had thrown it in right before the match), and of all things, a Smallpox for the final one damage to one player. That being said, obviously the deck would benefit from cards like Sorin Markov and Liliana Vess. They're both on my wanted list. And I can't wait to see Liliana's new card in Innistrad.
While I'm sure the deck is capable of doing lethal with burn/lifeloss, I think that's taking a very optimistic view of how much damage your opponents are going to be doing to each other. Sorin's Vengeance is a 7-mana spell, arguably one of your more efficient ones, and it only takes out a quarter of one player's life total. And you're not running Cabal Coffers or even that much in the way of mana rocks, so your mana development for big X spells is not particularly strong: it's unlikely you're going to be able to take out a player on your own without two or even three solid burn spells.
That seems like a really weak strategy, since you're basically relying on opponents fighting among each other, when you're playing a general that screams "difficult to deal with". If you start winning games and people learn not to leave you alone, I'm not convinced you'll really be able to seal the deal, other than relying on Ascension/Mindcrank, which usually gives opponents a turn or two to deal with it.
Remember that your opponents are probably playing their creatures fairly conservatively to avoid getting blown out by all your creature removal, so creature combat- the most likely source of the attrition damage that will get players low enough for you to burn them out easily- is probably not going to account for all that much over the course of your games. That's not even taking into account any player who might be playing lifegain spells(oddly common in EDH)
Honestly, though, I'm at a loss to come up with other kill conditions for you. My first thought is the eldrazititans, but those might be out of your price range, and I'm not really sure how good the lesser brood are.
Have you ever considered a different general? Clearly, the deck is very thematically based around Kuon, but I have to think trying to flip him multiple times (since enchantment removal isn't particularly uncommon in this format) must be tricky, and not being able to swing for general damage might be problematic at times. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief has a similar removal theme, but can also deal some decent general damage, and is less situational.
Sheoldred, Whispering One may be a fun addition to the deck. Now opponents are sac'ing 2 creatures a turn and you can stack Sheoldred's upkeep ability against Kuron's Essence so that you can bring back to life a creature that will immediately be sac'd to the Essence instead of Sheoldred. Plus this may open up some crazy battlefield enter/exit triggers (Gatekeeper? Maurader?)
Q 221- Trust me, Coffers is high on my priority list to get (sold my last one over a year ago). I'm actually not too worried about combat damage unless it's an all hasty deck or a general like Akroma, Angel of Wrath. During the last game there was a whopping total of 4 combat damage dealt. No other creature stayed on the board long enough to swing. I'm more worried about Enchantment/Planeswalker/Artifact decks - those could mess up this deck pretty bad.
I am trying to add some extra wincons because I do agree that just burn will not usually work. I think Grave Titan would be great because it's a big beater that masses out tokens to get around my own sac effects. The planeswalkers would clearly help. Angry? Apples! mentioned Sheoldred, who I had considered but decided I didn't have enough creatures to recur with her (though comboing with Fleshbag Marauder would be funny) and I may be forced to sac her. The titans seem expensive mana-wise for a creature that I will likely have to sacrifice before I can even swing. As for budget, it not a matter of what I can put in, but what I'm willing to - I have a hard time justifying $20 pieces of paper that aren't $20 bills, especially when I can kill $85 Jace with a five cent common and I've beat decks worth 200 times the value of my own ($20 merfolk deck vs $4000 power nine deck - good times).
As for changing the general, I could. Sheoldred would be my most likely choice. And I may after more playtesting. Wouldn't be the first time I demoted a general. At the same time, this is like the 14th EDH deck I've built (I haven't even put them all in my sig) - I get bored easily and like to switch up my strategy. I wanted to see if this was a viable strategy. I'm going to have to play several more times before I make up my mind. In the meantime, thanks for the critique, and keep it coming.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying about combat damage. My point was exactly what you're saying: combat damage isn't going to do a lot in games with this deck. The point is that it's not going to be doing damage to your opponents either, since people are going to hold creatures in hand to avoid getting blown out by all your removal. This means you can't sit back and wait for two people to grind each other down, at least damage-wise.
I agree with you that you don't have enough creatures to recur Sheoldred, and after that she's basically just more creature destruction, which seems needless in this list.
The reason I suggest the Eldrazi Titans is because both of the ones I mentioned have a useful on-cast effect, and if they get blown up with anything short of Swords/other exile effects, they'll go back into your library to get drawn again. Most creatures in this format aren't going to survive that long: at least the Eldrazi get you some solid value before they go (Ulamog's also an answer to artifacts/enchantments/Walkers) and if they aren't answered immediately, they can really set players back. I mean, compare Ulamog to Grave Titan: what would you rather have when the removal spell hits and the dust settles, 2 tokens or any permanent on the board dead?
They're mana-intensive, sure, but the idea is you play them when you really don't care about mana: eventually, you should have solid board control and quite a few lands in play. In Kozilek's case... how much does drawing four cards cost in black? It's 5 in blue and probably a bit more in black, so he seems pretty solid with that math. Ulamog might not be as efficient, but he is indestructible too, and at least provides some value.
I certainly understand the monetary argument, but *shrug* it's really hard to tell where people draw the line. It's probably possible to build a Commander deck without anything rare or mythic that can do well, but I don't see them often. A lot of the time the fun of Commander is getting to do big crazy effects, and a fair number of those cost some money.
I will mention: if you're going to change your general, I'm not sure Sheoldred is the best option. As mentioned before, only one of her abilities really does a lot in your deck, and she also costs 7, meaning you won't be able to use her until a bit later in the game, and it's relatively easy to lock her out with a few kill spells (and remember, in a deck like this players are probably going to look to you to provide the kill spells, so you'll have a lot of saved-up removal aimed at you at times). Have you considered Geth, Lord of the Vault? You know you'll be blowing up lots of juicy creatures, and having a repeatable way to bring them back might be a pretty solid way to win the game. He has a similar cost issue though.
Regarding Enchants/Walkers/Artifacts, I'm sure you've already considered this, but Oblivion Stone, Nevinyrral's Disk and All is Dust are all options for removing those permanent types while remaining in mono-black.
Geth could actually be really cool either as a general or an add-in. His reanimation ability could provide me with enough sac fodder to keep him on the board, and the mill would provide me another possible win-con. I think I will have to get a copy of him.
I also cut the one shot, sorcery speed Final Punishment that only triggers on damage dealt and replaced it with a permanent, repeatable Wound Reflection that triggers on all life lost, damage or otherwise.
I've got a Black Market that needs to find a slot in here. I also saw Nettlevine Blight in action and decided it would be a perfect card for this deck. Looking for things to cut.
As for the deck, I'm amazed at how well it's doing. It's so brutal that the last time I pulled it out, it drew two auto-concedes. I haven't even put in the planeswalkers or the other nasties I'm looking for.
Killing Wave was like Christmas in May - a very dark, evil, twisted Christmas. I also need to get a copy of Exquisite Blood for the deck. I am considering Descent into Madness, but I'm not sold on it yet. Any opinions on that card?
This deck has been retired. It was fun while it lasted. but I have too many other decks I want to try out.
*** RETIRED ***
Mono-black, anti-creature. Low budget. Lots of death. Fun Combos.
1 Kuon, Ogre Ascendant
Creatures
1 Abyssal Gatekeeper
1 Braids, Cabal Minion
1 Cemetery Reaper
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Reassembling Skeleton
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
Enchantments
1 Black Market
1 Bloodchief Ascension
1 Contamination
1 Exquisite Blood
1 Grave Betrayal
1 Gravestorm
1 Lethal Vapors
1 Liability
1 Necrotic Plague
1 Nettlevine Blight
1 Night Dealings
1 Painful Quandary
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Polluted Bonds
1 Spreading Plague
1 Tainted Aether
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Wound Reflection
1 Altar of Shadows
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Mindcrank
1 Mindslaver
1 Spine of Ish Sah
Instants
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Imp's Mischief
1 Shriveling Rot
1 Sudden Spoiling
1 Suffer the Past
1 Tendrils of Corruption
1 Treacherous Urge
Sorceries
1 Barter in Blood
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Black Sun's Zenith
1 Consume Spirit
1 Consuming Vapors
1 Corrupt
1 Curse of the Cabal
1 Death Cloud
1 Decree of Pain
1 Diabolic Tutor
1 Dimir Machinations
1 Exsanguinate
1 Innocent Blood
1 Killing Wave
1 Life's Finale
1 Mutilate
1 Nightmare Incursion
1 Pox
1 Profane Command
1 Rancid Earth
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Sins of the Past
1 Smallpox
1 Sorin's Vengeance
1 Syphon Flesh
1 Temporal Extortion
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Leechridden Swamp
34 Swamp
This is just the first build, and I have several cards that I will add once I have them: Cabal Coffers, Gate to Phyrexia, Grave Titan, Liliana Vess, Sorin Markov
Other cards I'm considering: Night of Souls' Betrayal, Nihil Spellbomb.
Some of the powerful Combos in the deck:
Bloodchief Ascension + Mindcrank
Braids, Cabal Minion + Spine of Ish Sah
Contamination + Reassembling Skeletons
Spreading Plague + Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII
Black Market + Death Cloud
Any other suggestions? (keep them cheap)
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You may want to add some more tutors so you can find a win condition when you need one: Demonic Tutor might be out of your price range, but Demonic Collusion and Beseech the Queen probably aren't.
I'd also suggest trying to add a little more card advantage in there: if you can get some draw, you'll have a lot of kill spells in hand as well as being able to find something to win with faster. Mind's Eye is a really strong one, Ambition's Cost is a great one-shot draw, and I'd personally recommend the underrated Journeyer's Kite. Fairly cheap, lets you hit land drops consistently (increasing the power of your X spells), and thins all the lands out of your deck so you're just drawing business.
Lastly, I feel like there are some cards that are just going to underperform.
- Planeswalker's Scorn: Might be good for hitting small creatures, but it's tough to consistently hit 6-drops, and it's not really that mana-efficient, and they could always leave lands in hand to repeatedly blank it.
- Rancid Earth: Are you running this for the single land destruction or the threshold effect? I guess I can see this as a way to hit utility lands, but it doesn't really feel like they'd pose all that much of a threat to you, and the card seems like it will be dead or not very effective a lot of the time.
-Festering March: You have quite a few sweepers in here, I'm pretty sure this won't come in handy all that often, and it's really expensive for what it actually does.
Legacy:
Type 2 Metagame Analysis. For those of you who keep wondering what's the best right now.
Out:
Festering March, Incremental Blight, Planeswalker's Scorn
In:
Beseech the Queen, Phyrexian Arena, Profane Command
I disagree on the deck not having any way to kill other than combo - there are quite a few burn/life loss cards in there (granted, the combos are the main way). The game I played, I burned out all three of my opponents with Underworld Dreams, Sorin's Vengeance, Profane Command (I had thrown it in right before the match), and of all things, a Smallpox for the final one damage to one player. That being said, obviously the deck would benefit from cards like Sorin Markov and Liliana Vess. They're both on my wanted list. And I can't wait to see Liliana's new card in Innistrad.
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While I'm sure the deck is capable of doing lethal with burn/lifeloss, I think that's taking a very optimistic view of how much damage your opponents are going to be doing to each other. Sorin's Vengeance is a 7-mana spell, arguably one of your more efficient ones, and it only takes out a quarter of one player's life total. And you're not running Cabal Coffers or even that much in the way of mana rocks, so your mana development for big X spells is not particularly strong: it's unlikely you're going to be able to take out a player on your own without two or even three solid burn spells.
That seems like a really weak strategy, since you're basically relying on opponents fighting among each other, when you're playing a general that screams "difficult to deal with". If you start winning games and people learn not to leave you alone, I'm not convinced you'll really be able to seal the deal, other than relying on Ascension/Mindcrank, which usually gives opponents a turn or two to deal with it.
Remember that your opponents are probably playing their creatures fairly conservatively to avoid getting blown out by all your creature removal, so creature combat- the most likely source of the attrition damage that will get players low enough for you to burn them out easily- is probably not going to account for all that much over the course of your games. That's not even taking into account any player who might be playing lifegain spells(oddly common in EDH)
Honestly, though, I'm at a loss to come up with other kill conditions for you. My first thought is the eldrazi titans, but those might be out of your price range, and I'm not really sure how good the lesser brood are.
Have you ever considered a different general? Clearly, the deck is very thematically based around Kuon, but I have to think trying to flip him multiple times (since enchantment removal isn't particularly uncommon in this format) must be tricky, and not being able to swing for general damage might be problematic at times. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief has a similar removal theme, but can also deal some decent general damage, and is less situational.
Legacy:
Type 2 Metagame Analysis. For those of you who keep wondering what's the best right now.
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
I am trying to add some extra wincons because I do agree that just burn will not usually work. I think Grave Titan would be great because it's a big beater that masses out tokens to get around my own sac effects. The planeswalkers would clearly help. Angry? Apples! mentioned Sheoldred, who I had considered but decided I didn't have enough creatures to recur with her (though comboing with Fleshbag Marauder would be funny) and I may be forced to sac her. The titans seem expensive mana-wise for a creature that I will likely have to sacrifice before I can even swing. As for budget, it not a matter of what I can put in, but what I'm willing to - I have a hard time justifying $20 pieces of paper that aren't $20 bills, especially when I can kill $85 Jace with a five cent common and I've beat decks worth 200 times the value of my own ($20 merfolk deck vs $4000 power nine deck - good times).
As for changing the general, I could. Sheoldred would be my most likely choice. And I may after more playtesting. Wouldn't be the first time I demoted a general. At the same time, this is like the 14th EDH deck I've built (I haven't even put them all in my sig) - I get bored easily and like to switch up my strategy. I wanted to see if this was a viable strategy. I'm going to have to play several more times before I make up my mind. In the meantime, thanks for the critique, and keep it coming.
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I agree with you that you don't have enough creatures to recur Sheoldred, and after that she's basically just more creature destruction, which seems needless in this list.
The reason I suggest the Eldrazi Titans is because both of the ones I mentioned have a useful on-cast effect, and if they get blown up with anything short of Swords/other exile effects, they'll go back into your library to get drawn again. Most creatures in this format aren't going to survive that long: at least the Eldrazi get you some solid value before they go (Ulamog's also an answer to artifacts/enchantments/Walkers) and if they aren't answered immediately, they can really set players back. I mean, compare Ulamog to Grave Titan: what would you rather have when the removal spell hits and the dust settles, 2 tokens or any permanent on the board dead?
They're mana-intensive, sure, but the idea is you play them when you really don't care about mana: eventually, you should have solid board control and quite a few lands in play. In Kozilek's case... how much does drawing four cards cost in black? It's 5 in blue and probably a bit more in black, so he seems pretty solid with that math. Ulamog might not be as efficient, but he is indestructible too, and at least provides some value.
I certainly understand the monetary argument, but *shrug* it's really hard to tell where people draw the line. It's probably possible to build a Commander deck without anything rare or mythic that can do well, but I don't see them often. A lot of the time the fun of Commander is getting to do big crazy effects, and a fair number of those cost some money.
I will mention: if you're going to change your general, I'm not sure Sheoldred is the best option. As mentioned before, only one of her abilities really does a lot in your deck, and she also costs 7, meaning you won't be able to use her until a bit later in the game, and it's relatively easy to lock her out with a few kill spells (and remember, in a deck like this players are probably going to look to you to provide the kill spells, so you'll have a lot of saved-up removal aimed at you at times). Have you considered Geth, Lord of the Vault? You know you'll be blowing up lots of juicy creatures, and having a repeatable way to bring them back might be a pretty solid way to win the game. He has a similar cost issue though.
Regarding Enchants/Walkers/Artifacts, I'm sure you've already considered this, but Oblivion Stone, Nevinyrral's Disk and All is Dust are all options for removing those permanent types while remaining in mono-black.
Legacy:
Type 2 Metagame Analysis. For those of you who keep wondering what's the best right now.
I also cut the one shot, sorcery speed Final Punishment that only triggers on damage dealt and replaced it with a permanent, repeatable Wound Reflection that triggers on all life lost, damage or otherwise.
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As for the deck, I'm amazed at how well it's doing. It's so brutal that the last time I pulled it out, it drew two auto-concedes. I haven't even put in the planeswalkers or the other nasties I'm looking for.
2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
Because I have more decks than fit in a signature
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2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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2023 Average Peasant Cube|and Discussion
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