Secondly, i've been thinking a bit more about adding a small counter protection package to help against other combo decks, at this point it's merely a race when both sides really want to combo. Included in that package would be Stifle and Trickbind, which can serve as one-shot sac outlets for Oring, Journey, and the Parallaxes. Now i wonder, is it worth it?
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
In exchange for a counter-wall, Hanna has lost some of the things that used to make it tick.
Some explanations:
Enchanted Evening/Teferi's Care - EE was always a combo card. Nothing less and nothing more. Problem? The combos were either too little or too much. (Teferi's care vindicates or opalescence field rape) It also suffered a huge problem of turning naturalize into a two mana kill spell for anything on the field, and when a cleanfall was played.... oh boy. These two are gone.
Mycosynth Lattice - Another combo piece, one used to help us convert infinite mana into colored mana. Well, it helped opponents out more with free colorfixing, and it turns out this card isn't needed for colored mana. Simply have a Voltaic Key and a Rings of Brighthearth out with a color producing artifact (and of course infinite mana) and you've got the same effect. Also, it was so not fun to have a null rod put onto the field and this had the same problem with sweepers as EE.
Thousand-Year Elixer - I know, I know. Hanna or argivian + haste == good times. Reusing the effect is even better. However, with the newest protection package, a counterwall can protect hanna should i not have a greaves, it just takes a turn to get going.
Vedalken Orrery - One of the most difficult cuts to make, but ultimately playing this resulted in solitaire. I dont like solitaire.
Smokestack - it begins to hurt us too much now, but if i had three slots open and i could afford to drop below a minimum counter count of 9, i would include this, junk diver, and myr retreiver.
Counter Count - 9 is the absolute minimum. With 9 i feel like i have a counter when i might need one, but my hand is never clogged. If i could make more cuts, i would try to jump the count to 12-15 (15 absolute maximum).
Lol, when you said protection package on Cockatrice, I thought you meant literally protection.
I've always liked a little bit of countermagic in Hanna to protect yourself from the occasional sweeper, but I can respect going all-out. I can't see taking out Consecrated Sphinx or Vedalken Orrery, though - Orrery especially if you're adding counterspells. How does it lead to solitaire, exactly? And sphinx is just too insanely good in this format, especially when you can protect it with counterspells.
I'd cut Archaeologist for Orrery - now that you have counters, you can better protect hanna from being tucked - and Thoughtcast for Sphinx. Yeah, U for draw 2 on occasion is pretty good, but sphinx is a beast.
As a connoisseur of fun, interesting matches, I still to this day have not been able to craft that "perfect deck"; the deck that I can play and have fun over time, doesn't get boring, but simultaneously is fun to play against. I honestly don't think it exists. It's like a unicorn. A ninja unicorn.
Lol, when you said protection package on Cockatrice, I thought you meant literally protection.
I've always liked a little bit of countermagic in Hanna to protect yourself from the occasional sweeper, but I can respect going all-out. I can't see taking out Consecrated Sphinx or Vedalken Orrery, though - Orrery especially if you're adding counterspells. How does it lead to solitaire, exactly? And sphinx is just too insanely good in this format, especially when you can protect it with counterspells.
I'd cut Archaeologist for Orrery - now that you have counters, you can better protect hanna from being tucked - and Thoughtcast for Sphinx. Yeah, U for draw 2 on occasion is pretty good, but sphinx is a beast.
The reason Thoughtcast belongs in the deck is because it is always good. It doesn't matter that it's not that "big" of an effect. Every EDH deck needs cheap cards as well. It's why decks should still run Ponder and Brainstorm even if they don't have a big effect. They're still good and help the deck be more consistent.
As for the counterspell suite, I don't like it. Many of the counters you added don't do anything but counter a spell, meaning they aren't efficient in multiplayer. In my experience with blue-based decks, this just led to too many clogged hands that eventually ran out of gas. In addition, the deck runs a lot of sorcery-speed artifacts and enchantments, meaning that without Orrery, you will be tapping out too often to make good use of the counters. I can understand the necessity of adding a few counters, but having too many is a bit awkward in Hanna.
And cut the rest. I've tried Dissipate/Faerie Trickery before, they really aren't as good as they seem. You rarely need the exile effect, especially because it's on a counterspell so it's extremely awkward to try making it relevant. Personally, I wouldn't run more than 4-5 of them. Yeah, you feel safer always holding one in your hand but you really only need to counter a couple things. Personally all I run is Glen Elendra since I only need to leave one mana open.
As for other cards to remove, I know I'm going against the grain here but I would take out Parallax Tide and Opalescence. I've tested them quite a bit in a more combo-ish build and honestly, I don't think they're good enough, for several reasons. Let me start with Tide. Tide has two main uses- exile five lands, or combo out with Opalescence and Wave. In its first use, exiling five lands, it's nice, but it won't end the game and you will most likely draw a ton of hate for that move. You would need to repeatedly recur it, giving people plenty of time to answer it, for it to actually matter. In its second use, it's a three card combo costing 12 mana, which has always been a bit clunky to put together, and it's even harder now that you too out Intuition. As for Opalescence, it's similar in that its only uses are clunky combos. Here, it combos with EE (Which you took out, and it's not even a great combo since it only works if you're way ahead in board position), and the Parallaxes. While it works well with Tide, usually Tide + sac outlet is good enough and you don't need Opalescence to combo with it. After a lot of testing, I honestly think Tide and Opalescence are too clunky for the deck.
I've always liked a little bit of countermagic in Hanna to protect yourself from the occasional sweeper, but I can respect going all-out. I can't see taking out Consecrated Sphinx or Vedalken Orrery, though - Orrery especially if you're adding counterspells. How does it lead to solitaire, exactly? And sphinx is just too insanely good in this format, especially when you can protect it with counterspells.
While i believe sphinx is a busted card in this format, too many wars were fought over it, or it was removed before i had the chance to use it, which essentially time-walked me again and again. I dont like that very much. That's the primary reason why it was cut.
Orrery was, as i said, one of the toughest cuts. Could i bring myself to go back in time to not want a counterspell suite, it would go back in alongside intuition.
I'd cut Archaeologist for Orrery - now that you have counters, you can better protect hanna from being tucked - and Thoughtcast for Sphinx. Yeah, U for draw 2 on occasion is pretty good, but sphinx is a beast.
I'll have to disagee simply because archaeologist is so bonkers. Alone - it recurs most relevant things. With hanna on the field as well, both of them churn up a fury of CA that can beat the usefulness of orrery handily.
Thoughtcast i want to keep in for pure efficiency reasons, with these changes, Hanna can not afford to timewalk herself for the potential of drawing cards. I'd rather just draw them.
The reason Thoughtcast belongs in the deck is because it is always good. It doesn't matter that it's not that "big" of an effect. Every EDH deck needs cheap cards as well. It's why decks should still run Ponder and Brainstorm even if they don't have a big effect. They're still good and help the deck be more consistent.
As for the counterspell suite, I don't like it. Many of the counters you added don't do anything but counter a spell, meaning they aren't efficient in multiplayer.
This is probably true. One alternative is to add more of the cantripping counters like Dream Fracture or Arcane Denial, which protect AND speed up the deck.
In my experience with blue-based decks, this just led to too many clogged hands that eventually ran out of gas. In addition, the deck runs a lot of sorcery-speed artifacts and enchantments, meaning that without Orrery, you will be tapping out too often to make good use of the counters. I can understand the necessity of adding a few counters, but having too many is a bit awkward in Hanna.
Playing with counters is a completely different game from playing without them. In the past, Hanna loved to tap-out and lay down all the toys and pass the turn along, helpless to stop another player from comboing out. No longer. xxxChristianxxx put it quite well earlier - that playing with counters adjusts the way you tap your mana and play the match. Indeed it does. Do note that many blue-based control/combo decks run upwards up 20 counters. That's too much for a deck like hanna, so no worries about that.
And cut the rest. I've tried Dissipate/Faerie Trickery before, they really aren't as good as they seem. You rarely need the exile effect, especially because it's on a counterspell so it's extremely awkward to try making it relevant. Personally, I wouldn't run more than 4-5 of them. Yeah, you feel safer always holding one in your hand but you really only need to counter a couple things. Personally all I run is Glen Elendra since I only need to leave one mana open.
There has been a resurgence of graveyard decks in my area (and online) so i'd rather not have that primeval titan come back to haunt me.
One counter is too few to make including them useful, in my experience.
I've tested them quite a bit in a more combo-ish build and honestly, I don't think they're good enough, for several reasons. Let me start with Tide. Tide has two main uses- exile five lands, or combo out with Opalescence and Wave.
Too true. Tide is my recurable strip mine on some very high-priced drugs.
In its first use, exiling five lands, it's nice, but it won't end the game and you will most likely draw a ton of hate for that move.
Frequently, it does actually end the game for a specific player. A turn 3-5 Tide can either royally screw my opponents so far they can't recover, or just makes them scoop after realizing they just lost the ability to do anything relevant for another 5 turns (giving me time to either combo out or play hanna and bring it back for more)
Granted, i do use it more agressively, and oh yeah it draws hate.. but less than one would think.... unless Hanna is on the field for obvious reasons.
You would need to repeatedly recur it, giving people plenty of time to answer it, for it to actually matter. In its second use, it's a three card combo costing 12 mana, which has always been a bit clunky to put together, and it's even harder now that you too out Intuition.
[quote]
Intuition.. i love that card to death, and it and orrery i spent several long hours pondering their removal while enjoying an excellent steak dinner thanks to the selling of overpriced candelabra. Intuition is great when i have a recursion engine out or if i would play Argivian Restoration (a really good card, that probably deserves a slot anyways) but otherwise it just sets up a play that might not even happen 5-10 turns in the future. This is probably due to my playing it wrongly.
[QUOTE=Telekinesis;/comments/4902444]
As for Opalescence, it's similar in that its only uses are clunky combos. Here, it combos with EE (Which you took out, and it's not even a great combo since it only works if you're way ahead in board position), and the Parallaxes. While it works well with Tide, usually Tide + sac outlet is good enough and you don't need Opalescence to combo with it. After a lot of testing, I honestly think Tide and Opalescence are too clunky for the deck.
I agree with your statements that opalescence is only used in fairly clunky combos (doing it with oring instead of tide is priceless, i need to find another CA enchantment that could benefit from doing this) but it's a backup plan i frequently am forced to go for. I can't cut out all of my combos, even if they are a little "clunky" - it's still the most powerful of those i do play. (Dance Titan isn't even close to removing everyone else's board and giving me lots of good stuff)
TDLR;
I agree that "just counterspells" might not cut it.
Solution - more cantrip/ca counters.
Efficiency over pure potential power.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Despotic Scepter is a card brought about by the hate people give Claws of Gix once they see its power. (it also made it impossible to get the foil one off of my friend... grr)
When claws is out, it generally activates once or twice a turn. Scepter does similarly. The fact that the ability is free shouldn't go unnoticed. That one mana can mean the difference between going off now or countering a threat.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
With the Full New Phyrexia Spoiler out, it's time to see what Hanna can take away from it.
We've got several decent choices, as it happens.
Dispatch - Instant-speed Metal-craft Based creature removal. Nice. If you're looking for a third Sword to plowshares, look no further.
Exclusion Ritual - A 6 mana oring effect that can help if you're facing decks that have similar cards in them - but we can do better than this.
Remember the Fallen - White's Grim Harvest. Provides a Hanna effect as well as the recursion of a non-artifact creature. Potentially awesome.
Phyrexian Ingester - a Duplicant for one more mana that gets additional power and toughness. If you're really starving for Duplicant effects, you can add this - but due to the lack of Artifactness i dont see it as being worth 7 mana.
Phyrexian Metamorph - Wow. This card alone changes the face of our sister Sharuum - and those who choose to go the copy/steal route can use this extremely well. Warrants a good long look.
Mycosynth Wellspring - A ramp effect that we can reuse as much as we wish. Worth the slot? Dunno.
Spellskite - A potential mini and recurrable counterspell/redirection effect. If you're in a removal-heavy meta, this might be a good thing for you to consider.
Torpor Orb - There, i said it. The forbidden orb. You might think that this is completely useless, as it shuts off OUR ETB abilities like Trinket Mage or Sun Titan. Well, this deck is one of the best at getting out 1cmc or less artifacts... like Phyrexian Dreadnought. We already run Stifle - the inclusion of Trickbind can make Dreadnought and other creatures with bad ETB effects a reality while simutaneously shutting off our opponents.
Unwinding Clock - Here's another thing i can really get behind. Untap all of our artifacts every turn? Oh yeah, now we're talking. Coupled with Vedalken Orrery or Shimmer Myr, you can get some serious advantage going.
Phyrexia's Core - A sacrifice outlet in the form of a land! Yeah baby! This seems to cry for inclusion, so why not?
I plan to swap Phyrexia's Core in for Deserted Temple or Serra's Sanctum, then find room for Expedition Map to tutor for not just it, but some of the numerous other utility lands.
Trading in some inevitability for disruption and a beatstick, kills must now take place one turn later due to the loss of Lightning Greaves (which wasn't doing much of anything besides that) but the deck can fight off attacks more easily now.
Serra's Sanctum has been ditched - with an increasingly smaller enchantment count (cant wait for the rumored enchantment block) it's been progressively worse and worse. Perhaps at a later date when enchantments start overtaking artifacts it will make a return.
I'm more of a Timmy player so I don't get the whole combo of using Parallax Tide to permanently remove players lands. Could you explain the combos in this deck?
Sure. Bear with me, the combo can be highly complex.
1. Have an Opalescence, Parallax Tide, and Parallax Wave on the field.
2. Remove something with Parallax Wave.
3. Now, because Opalescence makes Parallax Wave a creature, remove itself in response to the 2 trigger. (Since it only exiles a creature)
4. The Parallax Wave self-removal trigger resolves.
It leaves the field and comes back with 5 fresh counters due to its own Leaves the Battlefield trigger.
5. The original removal return trigger resolves - but wait! The Wave is already gone, and the ability is essentially countered.
That creature is now gone for good. So yes, you can exile every creature on the board with just these two.
But this is just the first mode of the combo - disruption. Hanna's got several highly useful ETB creatures that she can abuse with this. Instead of permanently exiling them, she can just blink them.
Steps 1 and 2 are the same.
3. Let the removal trigger resolve!
4. Now, have the Wave exile itself and let the Leaves the Battlefield triggers occur. It comes back with 5 fresh counters, and so does the exiled creature. This can result in some insane tricks with Trinket Mage or Sun Titan.
So now we've got two modes - Disruption and Benefit. How does Parallax Tide work into this combo?
In Disruption mode:
1. Exile 5 Lands. (Note the enchantment doesnt sacrifice until the next upkeep it has zero counters)
2. In response to exiling those lands, exile it with Parallax Wave.
3. Those lands are now toast as the fresh Wave and Tide come in.
In Benefit mode:
1. Exile 5 lands (probably yours)
2. Let the triggers resolve.
3. Exile the Tide with Wave and enjoy 5 untapped lands.
In this way, you get infinite mana while screwing with everyone else's boards! If you throw in Oblivion Ring, you can exile non-land/non-creature permanents as well! A win/win!
You do the same thing on a lesser scale with Claws of Gix and Despotic Scepter - ready to be recurred later by Hanna.
If you stick the lattice with march of the machines with the new white praetor that gets really nasty. Which fits your colors and completely removes the rest of the board.
If you stick the lattice with march of the machines with the new white praetor that gets really nasty. Which fits your colors and completely removes the rest of the board.
A long time ago, I did win through March of the Machines + Lattice killing, but that combo is not only slow and unwieldly, it's easy to stop with a single anthem. So I cut it. And now, i really dont have a use for Elesh Norn, even if i decided to reinclude the combo. It just doesnt do anything for the deck.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I was wondering that myself. If you add an untap mechanism (Deserted Temple) then it works fine, but I can't see it working without it. Assuming you already have a counter on Magosi:
-Tap to take extra turn, copy with Rings. Replay land (tapped) as your land for the turn. Extra turns: 2.
-(1st extra turn): Tap to skip next turn and add counter. Extra turns: 0
If you use Temple to untap after you replay Magosi, you're fine.
Also, have you tried Phyrexian Metamorph? I've been considering running him.
Which i apparently took out on the thread, oops. I'll fix that. It should be Ancient Tomb.
Reasoning:
I traded it away!
----------------------
I'm actually unsure about including this infinite turn combo. It ties up two precious land slots for it and takes a large amount of mana to make it work. Meh.
---------------------- Phyrexian Metamorph seems really, really awesome... but i dont need his abilities! I've witnessed first hand his power in artifact heavy decks, but consider that mine are mostly just utility artifacts, and i rarely need more than one. At best, he'd be another ramper.
However, just blindingly dismissing him isn't my way. I will be testing him out to see if he's worth finding a foil for and putting him in.
I really didn't like the Infinite Turn combo. Not only was it unwieldly, without the full combo two of the pieces were really underwhelming.
So, replacing that combo.
Despotic Scepter - It's certainly been a surprise to many people, but lately I havent needed to grab it. Either folks have stopped trying to exile my claws, or there are other targets for them to exile. So, it's out.
In its place, the all powerful Preordain makes an appearance! Hoorah deck fixing!
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Master Transmuter and Spine i have been unhappy with as of late. Transmuter was better when the deck played fat artifacts like Karn and Mycosynth Lattice, but now is not useful enough to warrant a slot.
Spine was best alongside Transmuter. Without it, I didnt spend the mana needed often. I have better things to do with that mana... like winning.
Lightning Greaves, I am sorry i left you. You were too important to the deck's speed and i didn't even notice. Welcome Back.
Martyr's Bond is the best thing that's happened to this deck since Steel Hellkite. 99% of what i do involves sacrificing. I would like to force everyone else to do likewise. It's just so awesome.
Spell Crumple over Faerie Trickery is just a straight upgrade.
And for now, i'm fairly happy with where the deck is at. Until Innistrad and its graveyard-based shenanigans comes along, looks like i'm happy. Innistrad should result in some decent additions. (It better Wizards, or i'm coming for you with my 21 turn general clock)
All that's left is to turn this into a decent primer.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
It could be because it's late and I've had a long day...but I'm a little confused about how you say your deck centers so much around sacrificing, yet perusing your list, I really only see Claws as your sac outlet. Stuff like Arenson's Aura and Teferi's Care can help sac enchantments (with the help of colored mana), and Martyr's Cause can help sac creatures (Opalescence + Parallax combos). It just seems you are very dependent on getting and keeping a Claws on the field, as well as a lot heap of mana. The infi mana combos seem good at that, but then that really turns your 2-3 card combos into 5-6 card combos. Just seems less consistent.
I guess it's just hard to believe your opponents actually let you assemble all of this.
I say that the deck does a lot of sacrificing, mainly because most of the abilities have sacrificing them as part of the cost. (I crack Memory Jar, sacrificing it, Martyr's Bond Triggers... oh did i just kill your Blightsteel Colossus? oops. Hmm, that mana reflection could get nasty. I think i'll sacrifice this Aura of Silence to kill an artifact... oh by the way, sacrifice that.)
It's mostly an observation of a side-effect of playing the deck than it is an actual playstyle.
Regarding actually trying to sacrifice things:
While yes, I only have one sac outlet (which I can tutor for using 90% of my tutors) it's proven to be enough. Arenson's Aura and Teferi's Care were at one point in the deck, but that was before i cut the completely useless card that is Enchanted Evening, which severly diluted each of their usefullness. Martyr's Cause doesnt do anything for me considering i run 8 creatures.
Secondly, i've been thinking a bit more about adding a small counter protection package to help against other combo decks, at this point it's merely a race when both sides really want to combo. Included in that package would be Stifle and Trickbind, which can serve as one-shot sac outlets for Oring, Journey, and the Parallaxes. Now i wonder, is it worth it?
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Version 9 of the list features a host of changes that seriously impact how the deck is played and how it combos off.
- Etherium Sculptor
- Consecrated Sphinx
- Enchanted Evening
- Teferi's Care
- Intuition
- Recurring Insight
- Mycosynth Lattice
- Smokestack
- Thousand-Year Elixer
- Vedalken Orrery
- Inkmoth Nexus
+ Counterspell
+ Dismiss
+ Dissipate
+ Faerie Trickery
+ Force of Will
+ Hinder
+ Mana Drain
+ Remand
+ Rewind
+ Stifle
+ Seachrome Coast
In exchange for a counter-wall, Hanna has lost some of the things that used to make it tick.
Some explanations:
Enchanted Evening/Teferi's Care - EE was always a combo card. Nothing less and nothing more. Problem? The combos were either too little or too much. (Teferi's care vindicates or opalescence field rape) It also suffered a huge problem of turning naturalize into a two mana kill spell for anything on the field, and when a cleanfall was played.... oh boy. These two are gone.
Mycosynth Lattice - Another combo piece, one used to help us convert infinite mana into colored mana. Well, it helped opponents out more with free colorfixing, and it turns out this card isn't needed for colored mana. Simply have a Voltaic Key and a Rings of Brighthearth out with a color producing artifact (and of course infinite mana) and you've got the same effect. Also, it was so not fun to have a null rod put onto the field and this had the same problem with sweepers as EE.
Thousand-Year Elixer - I know, I know. Hanna or argivian + haste == good times. Reusing the effect is even better. However, with the newest protection package, a counterwall can protect hanna should i not have a greaves, it just takes a turn to get going.
Vedalken Orrery - One of the most difficult cuts to make, but ultimately playing this resulted in solitaire. I dont like solitaire.
Smokestack - it begins to hurt us too much now, but if i had three slots open and i could afford to drop below a minimum counter count of 9, i would include this, junk diver, and myr retreiver.
Counter Count - 9 is the absolute minimum. With 9 i feel like i have a counter when i might need one, but my hand is never clogged. If i could make more cuts, i would try to jump the count to 12-15 (15 absolute maximum).
Enjoy, Hanna Players!
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I've always liked a little bit of countermagic in Hanna to protect yourself from the occasional sweeper, but I can respect going all-out. I can't see taking out Consecrated Sphinx or Vedalken Orrery, though - Orrery especially if you're adding counterspells. How does it lead to solitaire, exactly? And sphinx is just too insanely good in this format, especially when you can protect it with counterspells.
I'd cut Archaeologist for Orrery - now that you have counters, you can better protect hanna from being tucked - and Thoughtcast for Sphinx. Yeah, U for draw 2 on occasion is pretty good, but sphinx is a beast.
As for the counterspell suite, I don't like it. Many of the counters you added don't do anything but counter a spell, meaning they aren't efficient in multiplayer. In my experience with blue-based decks, this just led to too many clogged hands that eventually ran out of gas. In addition, the deck runs a lot of sorcery-speed artifacts and enchantments, meaning that without Orrery, you will be tapping out too often to make good use of the counters. I can understand the necessity of adding a few counters, but having too many is a bit awkward in Hanna.
Counters that I would consider to be good enough:
Glen Elendra Archmage
Dream Fracture
Force of Will (If you have enough blue to support it)
Cryptic Command
Mana Drain
Trickbind/Stifle
Hinder
And cut the rest. I've tried Dissipate/Faerie Trickery before, they really aren't as good as they seem. You rarely need the exile effect, especially because it's on a counterspell so it's extremely awkward to try making it relevant. Personally, I wouldn't run more than 4-5 of them. Yeah, you feel safer always holding one in your hand but you really only need to counter a couple things. Personally all I run is Glen Elendra since I only need to leave one mana open.
As for other cards to remove, I know I'm going against the grain here but I would take out Parallax Tide and Opalescence. I've tested them quite a bit in a more combo-ish build and honestly, I don't think they're good enough, for several reasons. Let me start with Tide. Tide has two main uses- exile five lands, or combo out with Opalescence and Wave. In its first use, exiling five lands, it's nice, but it won't end the game and you will most likely draw a ton of hate for that move. You would need to repeatedly recur it, giving people plenty of time to answer it, for it to actually matter. In its second use, it's a three card combo costing 12 mana, which has always been a bit clunky to put together, and it's even harder now that you too out Intuition. As for Opalescence, it's similar in that its only uses are clunky combos. Here, it combos with EE (Which you took out, and it's not even a great combo since it only works if you're way ahead in board position), and the Parallaxes. While it works well with Tide, usually Tide + sac outlet is good enough and you don't need Opalescence to combo with it. After a lot of testing, I honestly think Tide and Opalescence are too clunky for the deck.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Um, sort of.
While i believe sphinx is a busted card in this format, too many wars were fought over it, or it was removed before i had the chance to use it, which essentially time-walked me again and again. I dont like that very much. That's the primary reason why it was cut.
Orrery was, as i said, one of the toughest cuts. Could i bring myself to go back in time to not want a counterspell suite, it would go back in alongside intuition.
I'll have to disagee simply because archaeologist is so bonkers. Alone - it recurs most relevant things. With hanna on the field as well, both of them churn up a fury of CA that can beat the usefulness of orrery handily.
Thoughtcast i want to keep in for pure efficiency reasons, with these changes, Hanna can not afford to timewalk herself for the potential of drawing cards. I'd rather just draw them.
Yup, consistancy is always an issue.
This is probably true. One alternative is to add more of the cantripping counters like Dream Fracture or Arcane Denial, which protect AND speed up the deck.
Playing with counters is a completely different game from playing without them. In the past, Hanna loved to tap-out and lay down all the toys and pass the turn along, helpless to stop another player from comboing out. No longer. xxxChristianxxx put it quite well earlier - that playing with counters adjusts the way you tap your mana and play the match. Indeed it does. Do note that many blue-based control/combo decks run upwards up 20 counters. That's too much for a deck like hanna, so no worries about that.
Archmage suffers the pain of being seen a mile away. I'd much rather run Spell Pierce to be honest.
Dream Fracture is a good choice that could swap out for one of the current counters. Cantrip Counters are rather good.
Force - check.
Cryptic - Suffers the horrendous pain of being triple blue, if not for the difficulty of casting it, i would probably run it.
Mana Drain - oh hell yeah check.
Trickbind/Stifle - stifle's in, trickbind isn't because i can't find room.
Hinder - really the best counterspell in this format for decks that rely on generals.
There has been a resurgence of graveyard decks in my area (and online) so i'd rather not have that primeval titan come back to haunt me.
One counter is too few to make including them useful, in my experience.
you're killing me, smalls.
Too true. Tide is my recurable strip mine on some very high-priced drugs.
Frequently, it does actually end the game for a specific player. A turn 3-5 Tide can either royally screw my opponents so far they can't recover, or just makes them scoop after realizing they just lost the ability to do anything relevant for another 5 turns (giving me time to either combo out or play hanna and bring it back for more)
Granted, i do use it more agressively, and oh yeah it draws hate.. but less than one would think.... unless Hanna is on the field for obvious reasons.
I agree with your statements that opalescence is only used in fairly clunky combos (doing it with oring instead of tide is priceless, i need to find another CA enchantment that could benefit from doing this) but it's a backup plan i frequently am forced to go for. I can't cut out all of my combos, even if they are a little "clunky" - it's still the most powerful of those i do play. (Dance Titan isn't even close to removing everyone else's board and giving me lots of good stuff)
TDLR;
I agree that "just counterspells" might not cut it.
Solution - more cantrip/ca counters.
Efficiency over pure potential power.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
-Rewind
+Muddle the Mixture
Toying with-
-Strategic Planning
-Dismiss
+Intuition
+Argivian Find
(Intuition is just too good, and the addition of AF gives it more oomph.)
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Trolling.
Lol no. Actual relevant question: how goes Despotic Specter for you? Doesn't seem all that great.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
Despotic Scepter is a card brought about by the hate people give Claws of Gix once they see its power. (it also made it impossible to get the foil one off of my friend... grr)
When claws is out, it generally activates once or twice a turn. Scepter does similarly. The fact that the ability is free shouldn't go unnoticed. That one mana can mean the difference between going off now or countering a threat.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Seriously.
Gimme 4-6 cards in your Hanna deck (I assume Claws of Gix would be one of them), and I'll string together something not-too-shabby for you.
My Pauper Cube ♤ The Pauper Cube Thread Common Knowledge — 1 2
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
We've got several decent choices, as it happens.
Dispatch - Instant-speed Metal-craft Based creature removal. Nice. If you're looking for a third Sword to plowshares, look no further.
Exclusion Ritual - A 6 mana oring effect that can help if you're facing decks that have similar cards in them - but we can do better than this.
Remember the Fallen - White's Grim Harvest. Provides a Hanna effect as well as the recursion of a non-artifact creature. Potentially awesome.
Phyrexian Ingester - a Duplicant for one more mana that gets additional power and toughness. If you're really starving for Duplicant effects, you can add this - but due to the lack of Artifactness i dont see it as being worth 7 mana.
Phyrexian Metamorph - Wow. This card alone changes the face of our sister Sharuum - and those who choose to go the copy/steal route can use this extremely well. Warrants a good long look.
Mycosynth Wellspring - A ramp effect that we can reuse as much as we wish. Worth the slot? Dunno.
Spellskite - A potential mini and recurrable counterspell/redirection effect. If you're in a removal-heavy meta, this might be a good thing for you to consider.
Torpor Orb - There, i said it. The forbidden orb. You might think that this is completely useless, as it shuts off OUR ETB abilities like Trinket Mage or Sun Titan. Well, this deck is one of the best at getting out 1cmc or less artifacts... like Phyrexian Dreadnought. We already run Stifle - the inclusion of Trickbind can make Dreadnought and other creatures with bad ETB effects a reality while simutaneously shutting off our opponents.
Unwinding Clock - Here's another thing i can really get behind. Untap all of our artifacts every turn? Oh yeah, now we're talking. Coupled with Vedalken Orrery or Shimmer Myr, you can get some serious advantage going.
Phyrexia's Core - A sacrifice outlet in the form of a land! Yeah baby! This seems to cry for inclusion, so why not?
I plan to swap Phyrexia's Core in for Deserted Temple or Serra's Sanctum, then find room for Expedition Map to tutor for not just it, but some of the numerous other utility lands.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
- Ancient Tomb
- Remand
- Serra's Sanctum
- Artificer's Intuition
- Windfall
- Vedalken Archmage
- Lightning Greaves
- Counterspell
+ Island
+ Ancestral Visions
+ Trickbind
+ Forbid
+ Phyrexia's Core
+ Dispatch
+ Swords to Plowshares
+ Magosi, the Waterveil
Trading in some inevitability for disruption and a beatstick, kills must now take place one turn later due to the loss of Lightning Greaves (which wasn't doing much of anything besides that) but the deck can fight off attacks more easily now.
Serra's Sanctum has been ditched - with an increasingly smaller enchantment count (cant wait for the rumored enchantment block) it's been progressively worse and worse. Perhaps at a later date when enchantments start overtaking artifacts it will make a return.
---
Land > Beater
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Mono Konda| Sakashima| Yahenni| Ashling| Selvala|C Karn
Guilds Grand Arbiter| Meren| Gisa & Geralf| Scorpion God| Omnath| Sisay| Karlov| Avacyn| Jhoira v2| Rashmi|
Shards WUB Oloro|GWU Roon|RGW Jurassic Park|UBR Nekusar|BRG Kresh|
Clans RWU Narset|WBR Vampires|BGW Doran|UBG Muldrotha|URG Animar|
4-Colors GWUB Atraxa|BRGWSaskia|RGWU Hydra Hug| UBRGYidris|WUBRBreya|
5-Color WUBRG Super Friends
Extra Decks Titania| Taigam| Locust God| Cats| Tishana| Kumena| Squirrels| Slimefoot} Baron|RGW Samut|UBR Pirates|UBR Mairsil| WUBRG Ramos|
1. Have an Opalescence, Parallax Tide, and Parallax Wave on the field.
2. Remove something with Parallax Wave.
3. Now, because Opalescence makes Parallax Wave a creature, remove itself in response to the 2 trigger. (Since it only exiles a creature)
4. The Parallax Wave self-removal trigger resolves.
It leaves the field and comes back with 5 fresh counters due to its own Leaves the Battlefield trigger.
5. The original removal return trigger resolves - but wait! The Wave is already gone, and the ability is essentially countered.
That creature is now gone for good. So yes, you can exile every creature on the board with just these two.
But this is just the first mode of the combo - disruption. Hanna's got several highly useful ETB creatures that she can abuse with this. Instead of permanently exiling them, she can just blink them.
Steps 1 and 2 are the same.
3. Let the removal trigger resolve!
4. Now, have the Wave exile itself and let the Leaves the Battlefield triggers occur. It comes back with 5 fresh counters, and so does the exiled creature. This can result in some insane tricks with Trinket Mage or Sun Titan.
So now we've got two modes - Disruption and Benefit. How does Parallax Tide work into this combo?
In Disruption mode:
1. Exile 5 Lands. (Note the enchantment doesnt sacrifice until the next upkeep it has zero counters)
2. In response to exiling those lands, exile it with Parallax Wave.
3. Those lands are now toast as the fresh Wave and Tide come in.
In Benefit mode:
1. Exile 5 lands (probably yours)
2. Let the triggers resolve.
3. Exile the Tide with Wave and enjoy 5 untapped lands.
In this way, you get infinite mana while screwing with everyone else's boards! If you throw in Oblivion Ring, you can exile non-land/non-creature permanents as well! A win/win!
You do the same thing on a lesser scale with Claws of Gix and Despotic Scepter - ready to be recurred later by Hanna.
I've probably screwed up somewhere
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Mono Konda| Sakashima| Yahenni| Ashling| Selvala|C Karn
Guilds Grand Arbiter| Meren| Gisa & Geralf| Scorpion God| Omnath| Sisay| Karlov| Avacyn| Jhoira v2| Rashmi|
Shards WUB Oloro|GWU Roon|RGW Jurassic Park|UBR Nekusar|BRG Kresh|
Clans RWU Narset|WBR Vampires|BGW Doran|UBG Muldrotha|URG Animar|
4-Colors GWUB Atraxa|BRGWSaskia|RGWU Hydra Hug| UBRGYidris|WUBRBreya|
5-Color WUBRG Super Friends
Extra Decks Titania| Taigam| Locust God| Cats| Tishana| Kumena| Squirrels| Slimefoot} Baron|RGW Samut|UBR Pirates|UBR Mairsil| WUBRG Ramos|
A long time ago, I did win through March of the Machines + Lattice killing, but that combo is not only slow and unwieldly, it's easy to stop with a single anthem. So I cut it. And now, i really dont have a use for Elesh Norn, even if i decided to reinclude the combo. It just doesnt do anything for the deck.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy-Tap to take extra turn, copy with Rings. Replay land (tapped) as your land for the turn. Extra turns: 2.
-(1st extra turn): Tap to skip next turn and add counter. Extra turns: 0
If you use Temple to untap after you replay Magosi, you're fine.
Also, have you tried Phyrexian Metamorph? I've been considering running him.
Which i apparently took out on the thread, oops. I'll fix that. It should be Ancient Tomb.
Reasoning:
I traded it away!
----------------------
I'm actually unsure about including this infinite turn combo. It ties up two precious land slots for it and takes a large amount of mana to make it work. Meh.
----------------------
Phyrexian Metamorph seems really, really awesome... but i dont need his abilities! I've witnessed first hand his power in artifact heavy decks, but consider that mine are mostly just utility artifacts, and i rarely need more than one. At best, he'd be another ramper.
However, just blindingly dismissing him isn't my way. I will be testing him out to see if he's worth finding a foil for and putting him in.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
- Deserted Temple
- Magosi, The Waterveil
- Despotic Scepter
+ Island
+ Ancient Tomb
+ Preordain
I really didn't like the Infinite Turn combo. Not only was it unwieldly, without the full combo two of the pieces were really underwhelming.
So, replacing that combo.
Despotic Scepter - It's certainly been a surprise to many people, but lately I havent needed to grab it. Either folks have stopped trying to exile my claws, or there are other targets for them to exile. So, it's out.
In its place, the all powerful Preordain makes an appearance! Hoorah deck fixing!
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
- Island
- Faerie Trickery
- Master Transmuter
- Spine of Ish Sah
+ Command Tower
+ Lightning Greaves
+ Spell Crumple
+ Martyr's Bond
New - Budget Options
Explanation of main combos!
Master Transmuter and Spine i have been unhappy with as of late. Transmuter was better when the deck played fat artifacts like Karn and Mycosynth Lattice, but now is not useful enough to warrant a slot.
Spine was best alongside Transmuter. Without it, I didnt spend the mana needed often. I have better things to do with that mana... like winning.
Lightning Greaves, I am sorry i left you. You were too important to the deck's speed and i didn't even notice. Welcome Back.
Martyr's Bond is the best thing that's happened to this deck since Steel Hellkite. 99% of what i do involves sacrificing. I would like to force everyone else to do likewise. It's just so awesome.
Spell Crumple over Faerie Trickery is just a straight upgrade.
-----------------------------------------------------
And for now, i'm fairly happy with where the deck is at. Until Innistrad and its graveyard-based shenanigans comes along, looks like i'm happy. Innistrad should result in some decent additions. (It better Wizards, or i'm coming for you with my 21 turn general clock)
All that's left is to turn this into a decent primer.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
I guess it's just hard to believe your opponents actually let you assemble all of this.
It's mostly an observation of a side-effect of playing the deck than it is an actual playstyle.
Regarding actually trying to sacrifice things:
While yes, I only have one sac outlet (which I can tutor for using 90% of my tutors) it's proven to be enough. Arenson's Aura and Teferi's Care were at one point in the deck, but that was before i cut the completely useless card that is Enchanted Evening, which severly diluted each of their usefullness. Martyr's Cause doesnt do anything for me considering i run 8 creatures.
Hope that cleared things up.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary