Nightmare lash (makes a creature really big, stupid on traitor)
Quietus spike (when your deck is mostly power 1, this cuts down on kill time,deathtouch doesn't hurt either)
You got a lot of the good stuff already, but I could see some cuts
Reiver demon has to get cast, this deck can come out FAST. Plus he really doesn't fit the theme.
Your sweep pachage is impressive, but could be thinned a bit. With the artifact recycling available to you I don't see the need for so much, I would cut dust, wind, and decree.
The cost of the spells in the deck is very low. You do not need revenant, lotus, dynamo, or the magus. Thinning these also brings the average cost down.
I hope that this has helped, I think if you make these changes it will speed you up, and give you a more enjoyable experience.
By the way, I had missed the egg. Kudos to you for spotting that.
Sorceress queen (great defense and makes your big guys like butcher come back with shirei)
I was really interested in her. The problem I have is that she doesn't have haste. This seems underwhelming, because you can't sacrifice her and a larger creature and bring each back every turn. I actually am considering running Thousand-Year Elixir, because it would make all the creatures I have with t abilities absolutely incredible.
She was there in the beginning, but I cut her to fit into the 100. I want her back in, but I have to playtest first to see what is useless.
Deathgreeter (life! Need a lot with potence and arena)
If I wanted life, I'd definitely hit up the Gnomes. But I still can't see myself needing it yet. My Dralnu deck gets on fine with Necro, despite having no life gain. Again, I need to test.
Junktroller (hoses opponents g.y. hate and gives you some more.plus he's tough)
Same problem with t abilities. If I end up running the Elixir, I'll consider him.
Again, this was in my original shortlist. But besides him being sorcery-speed and expensive, I don't want recurring discard in this deck, because I generally don't want to be a dick in multiplayer games.
Really big by itself usually isn't that useful in EDH by itself, but really REALLY big can be. The thing is, unlike Lord of Extinction or similar, he takes time to get big again after he dies, and that seems a bit superfluous. Not to mention, if he dies, getting him back is hard.
Miren the moaning well (more life, another sac outlet, and is silly with above sentinel and troller)
YES. When I was trawling through the possible cards for the deck, I simply dismissed this as worse than High Market. But given that it's a land, that's not very relevant.
Nightmare lash (makes a creature really big, stupid on traitor)
Another one I overlooked. I probably wouldn't want to put it on something other than Shirei, a token or Traitor, but that seems fine. Again, I just zipped over it, thinking 'pumps power, no sirree'. But it is probably worth it.
Quietus spike (when your deck is mostly power 1, this cuts down on kill time,deathtouch doesn't hurt either)
Not so convinced on this one. It's really pretty slow at killing people beyond the first hit.
Reiver demon has to get cast, this deck can come out FAST. Plus he really doesn't fit the theme.
With my playgroup being what it is, I don't know whether the deck will be able to come out fast. I find it very unlikely that a game will end before I hit 8 mana. But again, I need to playtest.
Your sweep pachage is impressive, but could be thinned a bit. With the artifact recycling available to you I don't see the need for so much, I would cut dust, wind, and decree.
I agree, I think. I particularly don't like All is Dust, because even an indestructible Shirei dies to it. On the other hand, I think I need pretty much all the enchantment removal I can get.
The cost of the spells in the deck is very low. You do not need revenant, lotus, dynamo, or the magus. Thinning these also brings the average cost down.
I'll believe it when I see it. I cannot possibly imagine a deck that wouldn't benefit from these cards. Besides, in theory at least, this deck looks pretty mana-hungry. If you're trying to make 5 Pentavites per turn, for example, you're going to need stacks of the stuff.
I'm sorry that I, in essence, roundly rebuffed a lot of your suggestions. I don't mean to be rude. But I must admit that I did look through literally every possible card when making this deck, so what I'm looking for mainly are things that I may have missed or misjudged. In that sense, you've definitely helped. And for a lot of the suggestions, although it seems like you might well be right, I just need to playtest. It seems to me that your playgroup is also quite different to mine. Thank you very much, nonetheless.
My brother plays a shirei deck with almost all of the cards I suggested. And I have to say that I'm a little disapointed that you didn't take more of my suggestions. In my vast experience playing the game over the last 14 years there has been 1 fact that I have seen proven over and over again. Life is very important.the bottle gnomes is stupid. Shirei brings things back at the end of every turn, not just yours. In a 4 player game that's 12 life before you take another turn, and he can block every one of those turns.
Same with the death cultist. And with him, the distinction between life loss and damage is important. It gets around things like worship and circles of protection. As loss of life it gets around redirection and prevention. Adds an element of versatility to the deck people don't expect.
As for the elixir, its a very good idea and works well with assasin, both queens, troller, and the like.
mortitian beetle is much better than you give it credit for. You are playing black, its not that hard to get it back. If you need a certain creature you should run citanul flute. For every creature that you sac during yor turn and all of your opponents turns it gets bigger. With shirei, cultist, and gnomes out that beetle goes from a 1/1 to a 9/9 before it can even attack in a 4 player game. And that's without pact out.
I have seen the incredulous looks that my brother gets when he drops sentinel, but I have to say that there is no other creature that can suck up a darksteel colossus. Then turn around and sac it to miren, and have it come back to play to block again. Very underrated here. Trample is a huge problem for this deck, and seninel solves it pretty good, especially with the new errata on istivan.
On quietus spike, yes it can take a while to kill someone, but if your opponent is at 40, your first hit is for 19, second is for 11. That's pretty good work for a little 1/1. Plus its a great equalizer for people who gain 10,000 life. They are still killable with a spike. And the deathtouch doesn't hurt either.
On wither, if you are doing a lot of blocking then this is fantastic. Especially if you run necroskitter.
If you are having mana problems, instead of the simulacrum, run pilgrims eye. Feeds that pentavus fairly well.
Also, a card I forgot to mention, generals regalia. Fantastic here. Redirect that fireball to your bottle gomes and sack it for life. A reusable simulacrum. Very sneaky. One of the most under rated cards in edh.
If you still like the avatar and visara in here, consider thornbite staff. Your avatar can clear the whole field and still swing. Nasty.
On a side note, I don't think you were being a dick. Its ok to disagree. I have 0 problems discusssing the pros and cons of individual cards for any particular deck. I personally derive a lot of enjoyment out of constructive discussions such as these. I understand your concerns and I am only trying to give you the feedback that you asked for. As such I hope I have demonstrated bit more versatility for some of my suggestions and I hope you can understand my reasoning. I was glossing over some of my suggestions in my previous post without really expanding too much on the reasons for my suggestions. I hoped this helps you undertand some of my reasoning.
In my vast experience playing the game over the last 14 years there has been 1 fact that I have seen proven over and over again. Life is very important.
I would beg to differ, but that's a discussion for elsewhere.
the bottle gnomes is stupid. Shirei brings things back at the end of every turn, not just yours. In a 4 player game that's 12 life before you take another turn, and he can block every one of those turns.
Between combos, lockdowns, and general damage, I'd say I only lose to actually getting outraced (i.e. losing to having 0 life, but without my opponents having the potential to deal basically as much damage to me as they please) about a third of the time. That's why I'm dubious as to the benefit of the Gnomes. Yes, it would be pretty helpful in that third of games. But do I really want to be playing a card that will be basically dead two games out of three? Furthermore, politics is pretty important in our games. If I start gaining life, damage that would have gone somewhere else is going to strt heading my way simply as a means of control, and I doubt I'll be able to outrace that in most cases.
Same with the death cultist. And with him, the distinction between life loss and damage is important. It gets around things like worship and circles of protection. As loss of life it gets around redirection and prevention. Adds an element of versatility to the deck people don't expect.
If this deck were meant for 1v1, I think the Cultist would be a shoo-in. But 4 life per turn (I play mostly 4-way games) is pretty underwhelming, in either the gain or the loss. Even both at once. Again, I think I'll just paint a target on my head with the continuous pinging.
As for the elixir, its a very good idea and works well with assasin, both queens, troller, and the like.
I think I'll try it, but again I need to test so I can figure out what sucks.
mortitian beetle is much better than you give it credit for. You are playing black, its not that hard to get it back. If you need a certain creature you should run citanul flute. For every creature that you sac during yor turn and all of your opponents turns it gets bigger. With shirei, cultist, and gnomes out that beetle goes from a 1/1 to a 9/9 before it can even attack in a 4 player game. And that's without pact out.
I'm not denying whether it can get big that fast. Of course it can. I just questioning how good that is. Generally, I make it a rule not to run a creature purely for attacking unless it is guaranteed to be freaking massive, all the time (Serra Avatar, Lord of Extinction, Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer), or is very good at not dying (Darksteel Colossus). Since the Beetle is neither, I get the feeling that it would just deal 10 or 20 damage max (or get chumped a few times), then die to a wipe. And I only have six ways of bringing it back, which isn't that many. The Flute, however, is a good suggestion.
I have seen the incredulous looks that my brother gets when he drops sentinel, but I have to say that there is no other creature that can suck up a darksteel colossus. Then turn around and sac it to miren, and have it come back to play to block again. Very underrated here. Trample is a huge problem for this deck, and seninel solves it pretty good, especially with the new errata on istivan.
Like Gnomes, this seems to be a case of useful/dead ratios. Agreed, the deck does look like it might have a problem with trample. Agreed, Sentinel removes that problem. But I just don't find myself facing down a Colossus or Uril that often. And unless I am, Sentinel isn't up to much.
On quietus spike, yes it can take a while to kill someone, but if your opponent is at 40, your first hit is for 19, second is for 11. That's pretty good work for a little 1/1. Plus its a great equalizer for people who gain 10,000 life. They are still killable with a spike. And the deathtouch doesn't hurt either.
True. I guess my problem with it is that it gets worse the more creatures you attack with. However, it's probably still worth a look.
On wither, if you are doing a lot of blocking then this is fantastic. Especially if you run necroskitter.
I don't hope to be doing a lot of blocking. I fully expect to be attacked no more than five times in any given game before I win or scoop. If the dynamics of this deck cause that to change, both the Mentor and Sentinel might get a look-in.
If you are having mana problems, instead of the simulacrum, run pilgrims eye. Feeds that pentavus fairly well.
Already there.
Also, a card I forgot to mention, generals regalia. Fantastic here. Redirect that fireball to your bottle gomes and sack it for life. A reusable simulacrum. Very sneaky. One of the most under rated cards in edh.
Doesn't work like that. If you sac the creature before the damage is actually dealt, the redirection effect can't do anything, so the damage just gets dealt to you anyway. Besides, I'd rather run Forcefield.
If you still like the avatar and visara in here, consider thornbite staff. Your avatar can clear the whole field and still swing. Nasty.
It seems like this might have potential, especially if I get a few more tappers in the deck with the Elixir.
The problem here for me is that, while you have experience with the deck, I'm just theorycrafting at the moment, which leads me to somewhat mistrust my own judgment. For all I know, I may be employing confirmation bias to defend my choices. That is why I really want to playtest before I am happy about changing things. I should get the cards in a couple of days.
Ok. I won't pester you about it. I think you will see the validity of some of my suggestions after playtesting. I'm just happy to help. I will say this this about the regalia though. It does work just like that. Pay 3 redirect damage from any source, creature, fireball..... to the creature, damage is on the stack having been redirected to a valid target. Sac the creature in response to the damage being assigned to it. Feel free to ask a judge. Works really well with stuffy doll. I forgot that one too. Really good here too. Oops......oh well. Enjoy. I look forward to hearing your results.
614.9. Some effects replace damage dealt to one creature, planeswalker, or player with the same damage dealt to another creature, planeswalker, or player; such effects are called redirection effects. If either creature or planeswalker is no longer on the battlefield when the damage would be redirected, or is no longer a creature or planeswalker when the damage would be redirected, the effect does nothing. If damage would be redirected to or from a player who has left the game, the effect does nothing.
You can't 'stack' damage. Combat damage used to go on the stack, but doesn't any more. Noncombat damage never has.
I will admit, however, that the Regalia is pretty decent with Stuffy. My problem with Stuffy, however, is that it can only ever hit one opponent. Although I suppose you can just sac it and choose a different opponent...hmm. Worth looking into. I'll add it to the list.
Ok. Even so. I would generally prefer that my creature takes the damage instead of me. Your creatures come back every turn. Just target one of the creatures that has a cip ability like cadaver imp. And forcefield does nothing against burn. Regalia does. Its worth checking out anyway.
On a side note, my brother has LOVED the stuffy doll. The taget is verry easily changeable and the indestructability helps a lot with wipes. Once it hits it always just hangs around.
On things I would pull,
Thopter squadron is really kind of bad here as it can only activate as a sorcery
Plaguebearer is way too mana hungry xx is bad here. Targeted removal is nice, but you would honestly be better sreved by an icy manipulator to go with the assasin.
Skullclamp. Yes skullclamp. It is very anti synergy with shirei and only works well here if you list has 30 to 40 creatures. This deck is built around abusing the general and with such a small creature base, you need every one to stay out there and work for you as long a possible. My brother has played a lot with this card and has fianally taken it out because he never draws creatures to replace the ones he clamps.
Well, I've now played enough games to make some preliminary observations:
The deck is not fast. It usually takes a while to get Shirei to stick, and a while longer to win.
It seems to win mostly through wearing opponents down. A good engine gives you absolutely obscene card advantage, and abusing that enough basically hands you the win on a silver platter.
This is the most mana-hungry deck I've ever made. The more mana you get, the more you can do, particularly if you have Pentavus or another recursion engine outside of Shirei. Therefore, you want as much mana as possible. Black Market is an all-star.
That said, I occasionally find myself with more mana than I can use. I can't help feeling that some sort of reusable mana sink besides sac engines would be nice.
Stating the obvious, setting up some sort of engine requires Shirei, some 1-power dudes, and a sac outlet. I often find one of the last two, particularly the sac outlet, to be lacking. Therefore, I really want to find room for some more.
The deck is somewhat lacking in consistency. Thus, more tutors are required.
This is what I think of the pieces of the deck so far. Cards not mentioned are solid, and I'm probably not going to take them out any time soon, but they aren't worthy of special mention.
All-Stars
Mindless Automaton: Mmm, cards. An extra card for every player's turn is incredible, plus it can be Skullclamped and still recur.
Coffin Queen: Reanimates Emrakul and doesn't afraid of anything.
Thoughtpicker Witch: 1-power and sac outlet rolled into one.
Ashnod's Altar: Wow, that's incredible mana. This plus Pentavus = 6 mana each turn already, and it provides extra mana to fuel my instant-speed shenanigans if I burn out Coffers during my own turn.
Helm of Possession: Better than Shackles is in a deck running only Islands.
Black Market: BAHAHA so much mana. 25+ counters is not uncommon.
Butcher of Malakir and Grave Pact: So, I hear Plague Wind got outclassed?
Cabal Coffers, Urborg, Deserted Temple and Vesuva: Should be fairly self-explanatory.
Unsure
Junk Diver: Looks really good on paper, but for some reason just doesn't end up returning stuff that much.
Pilgrim's Eye: I just don't find myself needing the spare lands that often.
Plaguebearer: This is really, really situational. It noms tokens, which has saved me in some games. It's a great mana sink when I'm producing 50+ per turn, which happens quite often. But a lot of the time it just sits there and decomposes quietly.
Summoner's Egg: Again, situational. It would go really nicely with Citanul Flute, which I want to put in, so I probably won't take it out.
Infernal Tribute: It's like Greed, in that the cost is just too high when I already have quite a good bit of card advantage. Another one that looks good on paper, but really hasn't been so far.
Gate to Phyrexia: Another situational card. It destroys some decks, but is often just too slow. For example, having one in your hand doesn't help much against that Mindslaver your opponent just played.
Moonlight Bargain: I love it my Dralnu deck, but it just feels out of place here. The deck gets stupid card advantage from its board position, and doesn't really need to pay large amounts of life and mana to get more.
All is Dust: Yet another seriously situational card. Sometimes I play it and lose one or two permanents while wiping everyone else's board. Other times I basically can't play it without losing everything I've worked towards in the last 5+ turns.
Thawing Glaciers: I know it's a land, but it's just so damn slow! I sometimes wish I had a Swamp instead. Indeed, when I get it and Urborg out simultaneously, I pretty much never activate it.
Diabolic Tutor: Not amazing, but tutors are always useful. Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal will probably also find their way into this deck when I can be bothered to fork out for them.
614.9. Some effects replace damage dealt to one creature, planeswalker, or player with the same damage dealt to another creature, planeswalker, or player; such effects are called redirection effects. If either creature or planeswalker is no longer on the battlefield when the damage would be redirected, or is no longer a creature or planeswalker when the damage would be redirected, the effect does nothing. If damage would be redirected to or from a player who has left the game, the effect does nothing.
I'm curious about this rule because it's ambiguous. Are you sure the rule isn't saying if either creature or player that the damage was _originally_ going to is gone, then there's no way the redirection effect can take place? That seems to make a lot more sense. I'm pretty sure if I target creature A with a Lightning Bolt, and someone redirects it to creature B, and with that redirect on the stack, creature B gets sacrificed, I'm pretty sure the Lightning Bolt just does nothing.
Yeah I dunno, I guess I can't figure it out because the rule is kind of confusing to me.
I'm curious about this rule because it's ambiguous. Are you sure the rule isn't saying if either creature or player that the damage was _originally_ going to is gone, then there's no way the redirection effect can take place? That seems to make a lot more sense. I'm pretty sure if I target creature A with a Lightning Bolt, and someone redirects it to creature B, and with that redirect on the stack, creature B gets sacrificed, I'm pretty sure the Lightning Bolt just does nothing.
Yeah I dunno, I guess I can't figure it out because the rule is kind of confusing to me.
I am sure, yes. The rules would not use that kind of phrasing (which is indeed ambiguous, since which creature it would then be talking about is not specified, and is barely good grammar to boot). If it meant what you suggest, it would say something along the lines of 'If the creature or player that the damage would be redirected from...'.
In essence: the redirection effect is trying to perform an impossible action (that is, redirecting damage to an object that doesn't exist). Therefore it's ignored, and the damage is dealt to whatever it was originally going to.
101.3. Any part of an instruction that’s impossible to perform is ignored. (In many cases the card will specify consequences for this; if it doesn’t, there’s no effect.)
Ah, I figured it worked just like if you tried to Terror a Sakura-Tribe Elder, and the STE's owner sac'ed it, that Terror would be countered or fizzle or whatever you want to call it. Thought the same would happen if the target of the spell you redirected a Terror to was sacrificed. Guess it does that because of the stack, huh? The redirect target is no longer there so the redirect counters/fizzles and then it's back to what the Terror was originally targeting. Sorry for talking out loud, just like to figure things out like this so I know what's going on. =)
Ah, I figured it worked just like if you tried to Terror a Sakura-Tribe Elder, and the STE's owner sac'ed it, that Terror would be countered or fizzle or whatever you want to call it. Thought the same would happen if the target of the spell you redirected a Terror to was sacrificed. Guess it does that because of the stack, huh? The redirect target is no longer there so the redirect counters/fizzles and then it's back to what the Terror was originally targeting. Sorry for talking out loud, just like to figure things out like this so I know what's going on. =)
That's okay. The situation you describe is rather different, because redirection effects don't change targets and don't "lock anything in" until the damage is actually dealt. The rules for targets are actually very different to the way most other choices and effects play out.
If you're still running the Magus of the Coffers, with 6 swamp and Umbral Mantle you get infinite mana. Likewise, another combo I like to use for tons of mana and whatnot is Krark-Clan Ironworks, Blade of the Bloodchief, and Pentavus/Triskelavus/Thopter Squadron. Triskelavus in-and-of-itself can win the game singlehandedly with the other two combo pieces, and the others give you ridiculous board position(thousands of 1/1 fliers, one infinite/infinite guy, and as much mana as you want). The Blade itself is worth throwing in simply because you're expecting to lose your creatures constantly anyway. Likewise, if you haven't thrown in the Stuffy Doll yet, I would. It provides an immediate deterrent for attacking, particularly nice.
Banshee's blade doesn't compare to blade of the bloodchief in this deck! +1/+1 counters on shirei for general damage killing power or on mindless automaton for massive card draw or on any other creature you can abuse counters with. Banshee's blade doesn't let you abuse counters.
I'm also looking forward to abusing it on our new m11 sac outlet, viscera seer
Instead of arguing about Noxious Toad and it's multiplayer uses I'd like point you to the following update on it: Lilianas Specter from M11.
Well that's great, but it has a power of 2. Shirei can't recur it. Shirei can recur the toad, and with a proper sac outlet he can make opponents discard at instant speed. While I like specters, repeatable instant speed discard is on a level of its own.
Might have overlooked this little nifty fella ... but he's quite evil with your general:
+ Abyssal Gatekeeper: this little mob + your general can keep the board pretty clean, and you sac'ing one of your other 1/x mobs can be very beneficial
Just a thought
I'm really suspicious of this guy. On one hand, if all goes well, you nuke your opponents' boards repeatedly, and he's Grave Pact #3. On the other, some well-placed removal can just make you sacrifice Shirei.
If you're still running the Magus of the Coffers, with 6 swamp and Umbral Mantle you get infinite mana. Likewise, another combo I like to use for tons of mana and whatnot is Krark-Clan Ironworks, Blade of the Bloodchief, and Pentavus/Triskelavus/Thopter Squadron. Triskelavus in-and-of-itself can win the game singlehandedly with the other two combo pieces, and the others give you ridiculous board position(thousands of 1/1 fliers, one infinite/infinite guy, and as much mana as you want). The Blade itself is worth throwing in simply because you're expecting to lose your creatures constantly anyway. Likewise, if you haven't thrown in the Stuffy Doll yet, I would. It provides an immediate deterrent for attacking, particularly nice.
Blade seems like it would rarely be anything more than overkill. In situations where you can really spam up the sacrifices, you've probably won anyway. Yes, it can stick around past board wipes, but a lot of those board wipes are going to be wiping it too. I'd prefer to go with Nightmare Lash, as mentioned already.
Banshee's blade doesn't compare to blade of the bloodchief in this deck! +1/+1 counters on shirei for general damage killing power or on mindless automaton for massive card draw or on any other creature you can abuse counters with. Banshee's blade doesn't let you abuse counters.
It seems tempting. Not so great with Pentavus, but awesome with Triskelavus or Automation. Then again, it's as good as useless otherwise, and I'd rather have consistency than splashy combos. I'm considering taking out the Elixir for the same reason.
I'm also looking forward to abusing it on our new m11 sac outlet, viscera seer
Me too! In fact, I've already abused it some. Delicious.
As I think I already mentioned, I'm leaving Toad out of the deck for politics, not power level, reasons. I don't want people hating on me because I'm eating their hands and keeping them empty, even if they don't actually have any gas to hate with. I'd rather keep my friends.
M11 Update
Oh boy, what do we have here?
In
Viscera Seer: Free sacrificing on a 1-power dude with a supremely relevant ability? Sign me up!
Crystal Ball: More fixing is definitely still needed, and this looks like a pretty good way to get it.
All is Dust: Not hitting artifacts is a pain way more often than it is a boon, and slaughtering my army and my enchantments for the privilege is too much.
I found this through you sig and don't know if you're still using or updating it, but it seems to me that you're running Shirei as your general and fail to run Shizo. Even if you don't need it, how could you not run it? You got plenty of Swamps to replace with it (I know cards like the Leash suffer, but... come on... he's the Caretaker of the damn place ^^)
To be honest, I don't really care much for flavour when it comes to my EDH decks. I'm much more of a Melvin than a Vorthos (quelle surprise, right?). And since there are no other legendary creatures in the deck, it does much less than a Swamp. Sorry.
I like your list pretty well, just wanted to chime in on the Abyssal Gatekeeper note, he's not as good as he looks, but is much better than you fear, worth playing. Realistically, to avoid the situations you mentioned you just need to play consciously: don't play gatekeeper with only Shirei out (should be obvious), always keep a way to sacrifice him up if you have an indestructible Shirei so as to survive board-sweeps by using it and saccing something else in response to the sweeper. Also, Extraplanar Lens is risky, but I've usually found it to be worthwhile.
I like your list pretty well, just wanted to chime in on the Abyssal Gatekeeper note, he's not as good as he looks, but is much better than you fear, worth playing. Realistically, to avoid the situations you mentioned you just need to play consciously: don't play gatekeeper with only Shirei out (should be obvious), always keep a way to sacrifice him up if you have an indestructible Shirei so as to survive board-sweeps by using it and saccing something else in response to the sweeper. Also, Extraplanar Lens is risky, but I've usually found it to be worthwhile.
The problem I've always had with Gatekeeper is that it needs you to be so careful with it. Doesn't let you get as much mileage out of your other engines, for example. And it will only tend to kill a few dudes before you stop wanting to recur it. But it's high risk, high reward, I suppose. I'll think about it, maybe try it out.
Lens seems awkward because there are only 20 Swamps, and even Urborg doesn't get round it. It's pretty easy to ameliorate the risk by going Snow-Covered though. I just don't like how it powers down the Coffers engine in early turns as well. Plus, I'm generally averse to running it because of how owned you get if it gets destroyed or bounced.
Question on how to use Shirei...If you have a way to sacrifice a creature that is valid for Shirei's ability, do you get to return it once and only once at the beginning of the end step, or can you keep re-sacrificing it at the beginning of the end step to basically get an infinite combo?
Thanks,
--Evil
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Random yet awesome banner by Argetlam!
1 Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker
One-Power Creatures (19)
1 Cadaver Imp
2 Bone Shredder
3 Viscera Seer
4 Marsh Flitter
5 Mindless Automaton
6 Thoughtpicker Witch
7 Myr Retriever
8 Hell's Caretaker
9 Triskelavus
10 Blood Artist
11 Scarecrone
12 Fume Spitter
13 Heap Doll
14 Pentavus
15 Junk Diver
16 Pilgrim's Eye
17 Coffin Queen
18 Apprentice Necromancer
19 Plagued Rusalka
Sacrifice Outlets (6)
1 Gate to Phyrexia
2 Helm of Possession
3 Ashnod's Altar
4 Attrition
5 Phyrexian Altar
6 Infernal Tribute
Ramp (7)
1 Nirkana Revenant
2 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Gilded Lotus
5 Black Market
6 Sol Ring
7 Liliana of the Dark Realms
1 Skullclamp
2 Jar of Eyeballs
3 Diabolic Tutor
4 Vampiric Tutor
5 Sensei's Divining Top
6 Diabolic Intent
7 Praetor's Grasp
8 Citanul Flute
9 Demonic Tutor
10 Phyrexian Arena
11 Liliana Vess
12 Moonlight Bargain
13 Expedition Map
14 Increasing Ambition
15 Harvester of Souls
Sweepers and Removal (7)
1 Butcher of Malakir
2 Plague Wind
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Damnation
5 Decree of Pain
6 Avatar of Woe
7 Grave Pact
Miscellaneous Goodies (7)
1 Genesis Chamber
2 Darksteel Plate
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Swiftfoot Boots
5 Pawn of Ulamog
6 Lightning Greaves
7 Phyrexian Reclamation
1 Buried Ruin
2 Strip Mine
3 Vesuva
4 Temple of the False God
5 Bojuka Bog
6 Tower of the Magistrate
7 Crypt of Agadeem
8 Cabal Coffers
9 Blinkmoth Nexus
10 Wasteland
11 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 High Market
13 Tectonic Edge
14 Inkmoth Nexus
15 Phyrexian Tower
16 Miren, the Moaning Well
17 Petrified Field
18 Deserted Temple
19 Volrath's Stronghold
20 Cavern of Souls
You got a lot of the good stuff already, but I could see some cuts
Reiver demon has to get cast, this deck can come out FAST. Plus he really doesn't fit the theme.
Your sweep pachage is impressive, but could be thinned a bit. With the artifact recycling available to you I don't see the need for so much, I would cut dust, wind, and decree.
The cost of the spells in the deck is very low. You do not need revenant, lotus, dynamo, or the magus. Thinning these also brings the average cost down.
I hope that this has helped, I think if you make these changes it will speed you up, and give you a more enjoyable experience.
By the way, I had missed the egg. Kudos to you for spotting that.
Lots of life doesn't really seem that relevant when I have armies of chumps.
She was there in the beginning, but I cut her to fit into the 100. I want her back in, but I have to playtest first to see what is useless.
If I wanted life, I'd definitely hit up the Gnomes. But I still can't see myself needing it yet. My Dralnu deck gets on fine with Necro, despite having no life gain. Again, I need to test.
Same problem with t abilities. If I end up running the Elixir, I'll consider him.
All my dudes can just block and sac. I don't think I need more blockers.
Again, this was in my original shortlist. But besides him being sorcery-speed and expensive, I don't want recurring discard in this deck, because I generally don't want to be a dick in multiplayer games.
Also see above. Besides, isn't Noxious Toad better for multi?
Doesn't recur once you hit threshold.
Really big by itself usually isn't that useful in EDH by itself, but really REALLY big can be. The thing is, unlike Lord of Extinction or similar, he takes time to get big again after he dies, and that seems a bit superfluous. Not to mention, if he dies, getting him back is hard.
Why yes please? I don't want to be dealing damage to creatures.
Again, if I find myself short on life, I might run him
See Sentinel.
YES. When I was trawling through the possible cards for the deck, I simply dismissed this as worse than High Market. But given that it's a land, that's not very relevant.
Big and un-Shireiable. Needs to work like Banshee's Blade.
Another one I overlooked. I probably wouldn't want to put it on something other than Shirei, a token or Traitor, but that seems fine. Again, I just zipped over it, thinking 'pumps power, no sirree'. But it is probably worth it.
Not so convinced on this one. It's really pretty slow at killing people beyond the first hit.
With my playgroup being what it is, I don't know whether the deck will be able to come out fast. I find it very unlikely that a game will end before I hit 8 mana. But again, I need to playtest.
I agree, I think. I particularly don't like All is Dust, because even an indestructible Shirei dies to it. On the other hand, I think I need pretty much all the enchantment removal I can get.
I'll believe it when I see it. I cannot possibly imagine a deck that wouldn't benefit from these cards. Besides, in theory at least, this deck looks pretty mana-hungry. If you're trying to make 5 Pentavites per turn, for example, you're going to need stacks of the stuff.
I'm sorry that I, in essence, roundly rebuffed a lot of your suggestions. I don't mean to be rude. But I must admit that I did look through literally every possible card when making this deck, so what I'm looking for mainly are things that I may have missed or misjudged. In that sense, you've definitely helped. And for a lot of the suggestions, although it seems like you might well be right, I just need to playtest. It seems to me that your playgroup is also quite different to mine. Thank you very much, nonetheless.
Changes:
-1 Swamp
+1 Miren, the Moaning Well
(can't decide on something to cut for Lash, will figure it out once I've done some testing)
Same with the death cultist. And with him, the distinction between life loss and damage is important. It gets around things like worship and circles of protection. As loss of life it gets around redirection and prevention. Adds an element of versatility to the deck people don't expect.
As for the elixir, its a very good idea and works well with assasin, both queens, troller, and the like.
mortitian beetle is much better than you give it credit for. You are playing black, its not that hard to get it back. If you need a certain creature you should run citanul flute. For every creature that you sac during yor turn and all of your opponents turns it gets bigger. With shirei, cultist, and gnomes out that beetle goes from a 1/1 to a 9/9 before it can even attack in a 4 player game. And that's without pact out.
I have seen the incredulous looks that my brother gets when he drops sentinel, but I have to say that there is no other creature that can suck up a darksteel colossus. Then turn around and sac it to miren, and have it come back to play to block again. Very underrated here. Trample is a huge problem for this deck, and seninel solves it pretty good, especially with the new errata on istivan.
On quietus spike, yes it can take a while to kill someone, but if your opponent is at 40, your first hit is for 19, second is for 11. That's pretty good work for a little 1/1. Plus its a great equalizer for people who gain 10,000 life. They are still killable with a spike. And the deathtouch doesn't hurt either.
On wither, if you are doing a lot of blocking then this is fantastic. Especially if you run necroskitter.
If you are having mana problems, instead of the simulacrum, run pilgrims eye. Feeds that pentavus fairly well.
Also, a card I forgot to mention, generals regalia. Fantastic here. Redirect that fireball to your bottle gomes and sack it for life. A reusable simulacrum. Very sneaky. One of the most under rated cards in edh.
If you still like the avatar and visara in here, consider thornbite staff. Your avatar can clear the whole field and still swing. Nasty.
On a side note, I don't think you were being a dick. Its ok to disagree. I have 0 problems discusssing the pros and cons of individual cards for any particular deck. I personally derive a lot of enjoyment out of constructive discussions such as these. I understand your concerns and I am only trying to give you the feedback that you asked for. As such I hope I have demonstrated bit more versatility for some of my suggestions and I hope you can understand my reasoning. I was glossing over some of my suggestions in my previous post without really expanding too much on the reasons for my suggestions. I hoped this helps you undertand some of my reasoning.
Between combos, lockdowns, and general damage, I'd say I only lose to actually getting outraced (i.e. losing to having 0 life, but without my opponents having the potential to deal basically as much damage to me as they please) about a third of the time. That's why I'm dubious as to the benefit of the Gnomes. Yes, it would be pretty helpful in that third of games. But do I really want to be playing a card that will be basically dead two games out of three? Furthermore, politics is pretty important in our games. If I start gaining life, damage that would have gone somewhere else is going to strt heading my way simply as a means of control, and I doubt I'll be able to outrace that in most cases.
If this deck were meant for 1v1, I think the Cultist would be a shoo-in. But 4 life per turn (I play mostly 4-way games) is pretty underwhelming, in either the gain or the loss. Even both at once. Again, I think I'll just paint a target on my head with the continuous pinging.
I think I'll try it, but again I need to test so I can figure out what sucks.
I'm not denying whether it can get big that fast. Of course it can. I just questioning how good that is. Generally, I make it a rule not to run a creature purely for attacking unless it is guaranteed to be freaking massive, all the time (Serra Avatar, Lord of Extinction, Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer), or is very good at not dying (Darksteel Colossus). Since the Beetle is neither, I get the feeling that it would just deal 10 or 20 damage max (or get chumped a few times), then die to a wipe. And I only have six ways of bringing it back, which isn't that many. The Flute, however, is a good suggestion.
Like Gnomes, this seems to be a case of useful/dead ratios. Agreed, the deck does look like it might have a problem with trample. Agreed, Sentinel removes that problem. But I just don't find myself facing down a Colossus or Uril that often. And unless I am, Sentinel isn't up to much.
True. I guess my problem with it is that it gets worse the more creatures you attack with. However, it's probably still worth a look.
I don't hope to be doing a lot of blocking. I fully expect to be attacked no more than five times in any given game before I win or scoop. If the dynamics of this deck cause that to change, both the Mentor and Sentinel might get a look-in.
Already there.
Doesn't work like that. If you sac the creature before the damage is actually dealt, the redirection effect can't do anything, so the damage just gets dealt to you anyway. Besides, I'd rather run Forcefield.
It seems like this might have potential, especially if I get a few more tappers in the deck with the Elixir.
The problem here for me is that, while you have experience with the deck, I'm just theorycrafting at the moment, which leads me to somewhat mistrust my own judgment. For all I know, I may be employing confirmation bias to defend my choices. That is why I really want to playtest before I am happy about changing things. I should get the cards in a couple of days.
List of cards I need to look into:
You can't 'stack' damage. Combat damage used to go on the stack, but doesn't any more. Noncombat damage never has.
I will admit, however, that the Regalia is pretty decent with Stuffy. My problem with Stuffy, however, is that it can only ever hit one opponent. Although I suppose you can just sac it and choose a different opponent...hmm. Worth looking into. I'll add it to the list.
On a side note, my brother has LOVED the stuffy doll. The taget is verry easily changeable and the indestructability helps a lot with wipes. Once it hits it always just hangs around.
On things I would pull,
Thopter squadron is really kind of bad here as it can only activate as a sorcery
Plaguebearer is way too mana hungry xx is bad here. Targeted removal is nice, but you would honestly be better sreved by an icy manipulator to go with the assasin.
Skullclamp. Yes skullclamp. It is very anti synergy with shirei and only works well here if you list has 30 to 40 creatures. This deck is built around abusing the general and with such a small creature base, you need every one to stay out there and work for you as long a possible. My brother has played a lot with this card and has fianally taken it out because he never draws creatures to replace the ones he clamps.
All-Stars
Unsure
Out
In
Considering
I'm curious about this rule because it's ambiguous. Are you sure the rule isn't saying if either creature or player that the damage was _originally_ going to is gone, then there's no way the redirection effect can take place? That seems to make a lot more sense. I'm pretty sure if I target creature A with a Lightning Bolt, and someone redirects it to creature B, and with that redirect on the stack, creature B gets sacrificed, I'm pretty sure the Lightning Bolt just does nothing.
Yeah I dunno, I guess I can't figure it out because the rule is kind of confusing to me.
twitter.com/bccarlso
I am sure, yes. The rules would not use that kind of phrasing (which is indeed ambiguous, since which creature it would then be talking about is not specified, and is barely good grammar to boot). If it meant what you suggest, it would say something along the lines of 'If the creature or player that the damage would be redirected from...'.
In essence: the redirection effect is trying to perform an impossible action (that is, redirecting damage to an object that doesn't exist). Therefore it's ignored, and the damage is dealt to whatever it was originally going to.
twitter.com/bccarlso
That's okay. The situation you describe is rather different, because redirection effects don't change targets and don't "lock anything in" until the damage is actually dealt. The rules for targets are actually very different to the way most other choices and effects play out.
I'm also looking forward to abusing it on our new m11 sac outlet, viscera seer
Also, noxious toad + thoughtpicker witch = gg
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
Well that's great, but it has a power of 2. Shirei can't recur it. Shirei can recur the toad, and with a proper sac outlet he can make opponents discard at instant speed. While I like specters, repeatable instant speed discard is on a level of its own.
Glissa, the Traitor, Ulasht, the Hate Seed, The Mimeoplasm
I'm really suspicious of this guy. On one hand, if all goes well, you nuke your opponents' boards repeatedly, and he's Grave Pact #3. On the other, some well-placed removal can just make you sacrifice Shirei.
Blade seems like it would rarely be anything more than overkill. In situations where you can really spam up the sacrifices, you've probably won anyway. Yes, it can stick around past board wipes, but a lot of those board wipes are going to be wiping it too. I'd prefer to go with Nightmare Lash, as mentioned already.
It seems tempting. Not so great with Pentavus, but awesome with Triskelavus or Automation. Then again, it's as good as useless otherwise, and I'd rather have consistency than splashy combos. I'm considering taking out the Elixir for the same reason.
Me too! In fact, I've already abused it some. Delicious.
As I think I already mentioned, I'm leaving Toad out of the deck for politics, not power level, reasons. I don't want people hating on me because I'm eating their hands and keeping them empty, even if they don't actually have any gas to hate with. I'd rather keep my friends.
M11 Update
Oh boy, what do we have here?
In
Out
To be honest, I don't really care much for flavour when it comes to my EDH decks. I'm much more of a Melvin than a Vorthos (quelle surprise, right?). And since there are no other legendary creatures in the deck, it does much less than a Swamp. Sorry.
Gathering Magic
Goblin Artisans
Channel Fireball
Daily MTG Making Magic
Daily MTG Latest Developments
MTG Color Pie
The problem I've always had with Gatekeeper is that it needs you to be so careful with it. Doesn't let you get as much mileage out of your other engines, for example. And it will only tend to kill a few dudes before you stop wanting to recur it. But it's high risk, high reward, I suppose. I'll think about it, maybe try it out.
Lens seems awkward because there are only 20 Swamps, and even Urborg doesn't get round it. It's pretty easy to ameliorate the risk by going Snow-Covered though. I just don't like how it powers down the Coffers engine in early turns as well. Plus, I'm generally averse to running it because of how owned you get if it gets destroyed or bounced.
-Royal Assassin
-Plaguebearer
+Fume Spitter
+Oversold Cemetary
The latter change is just an experiment. I somehow can guess that it will end up as Phyrexian Reclamation instead.
EDIT: One more: Sorceress Queen having failed to impress, gets booted out for Scarecrone.
Gigantomancer is green...
(Oh, how'd I love access to other colours. Sakura-Tribe Elder anybody?)
Thanks,
--Evil