Just wanted to give a heads up... I sort of scrapped my intentions to build Talrand of recent. I proxied the list up and played it. He was fun but he ended up being incredibly general centric so I had to worry all the time about people tucking him or even just killing him. I found that he was really slow and vulnerable as well for being a general centric deck. I am not trying to turn anyone away from him but I just found it a bit difficult to stay with due to these issues.
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
This needs omniscience, just try it, believe me, you'll poop your pants once it resolves. Have you thought about akroma's memorial? Alpha striking and still having blockers is pretty good.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
well my favorite of fav cards i wish to see in here and my only suggestion so far before i build this is leyline of anticipation i have this card in every edh blue deck..why? cause casting everything for instant is ALWAYS a win (cept planeswalkers i guess) being able to just say draw pass is a big deal and turning your sorcerys into instant can benefit you.
got mentioned on the first page, but where's coat of arms? backfiring isn't really an issue, if you don't win the turn you play it, then something has gone horribly wrong.
also got mentioned and ignored - gravitational shift. You've got very few creatures on the ground, so the vast majority will be your drakes...double power and taking less damage from enemy attacks is pretty rad. Even if your opponent has bigger flyers, more power makes it easier to trade silly drakes for expensive flyers, which your opponents aren't likely to want to do.
First of all, I already mentioned a few posts back that I am no longer running this list due to some issues with it being very general centric. The problem I had is that I have to stick my commander and without him the deck just spins the wheels without doing much... I mentioned this already and so while I am willing to field some questions yet on my experience in running him however short it was keep in mind I am not really looking to make further updates to the list.
What about including Merrow Reejerey or at least Azami, Lady of Scrolls? The first one gives you untapped mana the turn you cast Talrand, the second draws a lot of cards to make more drakes and is fetchable with Vedalken Aethermage.
Merrow Reejerey is too narrow in my opinion. I would rather just bulk up on flash effects or more free counters.
Azami, Lady of Scrolls ehhh she is ok but not what I am looking for here. I want cheap cards and the ability to move through them quickly. The reason I run Magus of the Future instead is that I could potentially chain lots of effects off of him each turn vs just drawing like 2 cards a turn.
well my favorite of fav cards i wish to see in here and my only suggestion so far before i build this is leyline of anticipation i have this card in every edh blue deck..why? cause casting everything for instant is ALWAYS a win (cept planeswalkers i guess) being able to just say draw pass is a big deal and turning your sorcerys into instant can benefit you.
I have been playing with flash a bit in my mono red deck and I agree with your assessment of it being amazing. It might require more of a surprise / flash playing the commander here... I was just having too many problems sticking him considering he can get out of hand stupidly fast. All of the creature hate that comes against you will be aimed at your commander.
Thanks, based off of my experience with it I would further decrease the cost of the spells, axe a lot of the expensive stuff that isnt really neccesary and increase the amount of fast cantrip / filter / draw.
got mentioned on the first page, but where's coat of arms? backfiring isn't really an issue, if you don't win the turn you play it, then something has gone horribly wrong.
also got mentioned and ignored - gravitational shift. You've got very few creatures on the ground, so the vast majority will be your drakes...double power and taking less damage from enemy attacks is pretty rad. Even if your opponent has bigger flyers, more power makes it easier to trade silly drakes for expensive flyers, which your opponents aren't likely to want to do.
Coat of Arms got cut early on because while it is great and all, I literally win or loose games based off of keeping my commander in play. If I get a bunch of tokens out I would just rather have the extra turns which spawn creatures still and also give me more combat steps. The advantage it has is that it goes off bigger however I found that these sort of effects are usually an all or nothing in their usefulness. Something like Time Warp can still be used as a cantrip / untap even if I don't have a position to win with.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I gotta agree with the sentiment that the deck is a little general centric, and by a little I mean a lot. I started with your list and hopefully today I'll be able to tune it to more my style.
I like the idea of lowering the curve but I want the cantrips to lead me somewhere bigger if I add more of them. I might employ some mono colored mana doubles as they can pump my team and maybe give me some late game with some of the draw x spells. I am adding Wipe Away and maybe Boomerang. I only played one game but could have killed two or maybe three people if I had been able to get rid of a Vish Kal for a turn or two.
I felt the deck lacked reach and staying power, not card quality. Of course with a monoblue tokens aggro deck based purely on the general... reach might be hard to get.
Sphinx-bone wand is one of the reasons I want to make a talrands deck. Have you tried it out yet? It could be too slow for some metas, but I think it'll fit right at home in mine, and it seems pretty cool. I was planning on making mine full of cantrips, though I haven't really started. Some cool ideas in here I'll consider.
edit: just came across and reread my knowledge pool. Seems sweet in a particular brand of talrand. Two casts per spell, plus you can steal big ones with your cantrips.
Question about Oona's Grace... because we aren't flashing it back, does it get to stay in the GY if cast from there?
I threw together a Talrand Deck for s's & g's (really undertuned w/ 25+ cantrips, no boots/cloak/greaves, no erayo) and I have in there as I thought it sounded like, with Crucible of Worlds out, you always have an EOT draw/token-maker, if you really need it (CoW = less of a sting).
Question about Oona's Grace... because we aren't flashing it back, does it get to stay in the GY if cast from there?
Retrace is a static ability that works from the Grave Yard to allow you to cast the spell for an alternate cost from a different location.
The normal rules for casting a spell still apply. When you cast Oona's Grace from the retrace ability, you would announce that you are casting the spell, and move it from where it is (GY) to the stack. You then pay all costs, including discard a land from your hand as an additional cost to the 2U. When you complete the process of casting the spell, any player may respond to it while it is on the stack. When it resolves, it leaves the stack and is placed into your Graveyard.
Flashback is a different ability/aternate cost.
I threw together a Talrand Deck for s's & g's (really undertuned w/ 25+ cantrips, no boots/cloak/greaves, no erayo) and I have in there as I thought it sounded like, with Crucible of Worlds out, you always have an EOT draw/token-maker, if you really need it.
Crucible of Worlds alone isn't enough. You need a land to discard from your hand to retrace. Crucible lets you play the land from your GY (Gy -> battlefield). It does allow for extra spells though, as you can pitch the land you would play to retrace, and then play it from the graveyard.
Retrace is a static ability that works from the Grave Yard to allow you to cast the spell for an alternate cost from a different location.
The normal rules for casting a spell still apply. When you cast Oona's Grace from the retrace ability, you would announce that you are casting the spell, and move it from where it is (GY) to the stack. You then pay all costs, including discard a land from your hand as an additional cost to the 2U. When you complete the process of casting the spell, any player may respond to it while it is on the stack. When it resolves, it leaves the stack and is placed into your Graveyard.
Flashback is a different ability/aternate cost.
Crucible of Worlds alone isn't enough. You need a land to discard from your hand to retrace. Crucible lets you play the land from your GY (Gy -> battlefield). It does allow for extra spells though, as you can pitch the land you would play to retrace, and then play it from the graveyard.
I want to snap at you, Bob, but I know you're there just trying to help clarify. You're... always... there...
I asked my question understanding how the stack works, how Flashback and Retrace are separate mechanics, and was 90% in understanding of Retrace's mechanics. The only thing I was making sure of was any general rule that states that any Instant of Sorcery cast from the GY gets exiled, resolved or not. (My instincts told me the Retrace reminder text said nothing about exiling, thus it stays... but I like making sure of things.)
As for Crucible, I was well aware of its functions and limitations. I was well aware fact that OG made me pitch a land. In fact I was happy about it as it basically makes the downside of OG's Retrace, the land pitch, irrelevant. I don't mind if said land gets back to my hand after pitching it when CoW is out, because it's coming into play next turn. (If CoW is destroyed before then, then, obviously, I'd be salty.)
I use OG's Retrace EoT on the opponent-before-my-turn's turn. Pitch the land to help pay the retrace, then get to play said land on my turn.. not to mention w/ Tally out I get a attack ready Drake, too. If I'm lucky, either the draw from OG, or my Draw-step, nets me another land.
I'll admit I should never have said "whenever you really need it" as I made it sound like you can retrace OG with CoW out at any time you had the open mana (as the land pitch issue will be non-existent).
I want to snap at you, Bob, but I know you're there just trying to help clarify. You're... always... there...
I asked my question understanding how the stack works, how Flashback and Retrace are separate mechanics, and was 90% in understanding of Retrace's mechanics. The only thing I was making sure of was any general rule that states that any Instant of Sorcery cast from the GY gets exiled, resolved or not. (My instincts told me the Retrace reminder text said nothing about exiling, thus it stays... but I like making sure of things.)
As for Crucible, I was well aware of its functions and limitations. I was well aware fact that OG made me pitch a land. In fact I was happy about it as it basically makes the downside of OG's Retrace, the land pitch, irrelevant. I don't mind if said land gets back to my hand after pitching it when CoW is out, because it's coming into play next turn. (If CoW is destroyed before then, then, obviously, I'd be salty.)
I use OG's Retrace EoT on the opponent-before-my-turn's turn. Pitch the land to help pay the retrace, then get to play said land on my turn.. not to mention w/ Tally out I get a attack ready Drake, too. If I'm lucky, either the draw from OG, or my Draw-step, nets me another land.
I'll admit I should never have said "whenever you really need it" as I made it sound like you can retrace OG with CoW out at any time you had the open mana (as the land pitch issue will be non-existent).
Heh. Sorry about that. I don't mean to imply anything when I answer a rules question; I just try to always answer them as completely possible, since other people may read it, so I'm answering it to everyone, not just you. Also, all I have to go off of is what's written in the post, so it's better to explain more, than assume and explain less (I've made that mistake too, before).
The same thing with the Crucible; the way you had worded it, I wanted to be sure that not only you, but anyone else who read through the question, didn't get the wrong impression.
I also wanted to tap in the Trade Routes, as routes/crucible are both solid cards, and work very well together. Add in retrace like Oona's, and things that trigger from it like Talrand, River Kelpie, or Secrets of the Dead... and... well... you have one of my favorite sets of interactions in the game. (especially when you reduce the cost)
===
As far as exile v flashback, there is no rule about exiling spells cast from the graveyard; it's only a very common theme in design, in order to limit the scope and reach of the effect. Many other abilities exile the spell afterwards, so it's a recurring theme (Spellweaver Volute, Yawgmoth's Will) and Boesium Strip for example) but this is done for design reasons, as those effects would otherwise have extremely powerful reach. Design wise, they limited retrace with the land thing instead.
===
and yeah, I probably frequent these forums more than I should...
Heh. Sorry about that. I don't mean to imply anything when I answer a rules question; I just try to always answer them as completely possible, since other people may read it, so I'm answering it to everyone, not just you. Also, all I have to go off of is what's written in the post, so it's better to explain more, than assume and explain less (I've made that mistake too, before).
The same thing with the Crucible; the way you had worded it, I wanted to be sure that not only you, but anyone else who read through the question, didn't get the wrong impression.
I also wanted to tap in the Trade Routes, as routes/crucible are both solid cards, and work very well together. Add in retrace like Oona's, and things that trigger from it like Talrand, River Kelpie, or Secrets of the Dead... and... well... you have one of my favorite sets of interactions in the game. (especially when you reduce the cost)
===
As far as exile v flashback, there is no rule about exiling spells cast from the graveyard; it's only a very common theme in design, in order to limit the scope and reach of the effect. Many other abilities exile the spell afterwards, so it's a recurring theme (Spellweaver Volute, Yawgmoth's Will) and Boesium Strip for example) but this is done for design reasons, as those effects would otherwise have extremely powerful reach. Design wise, they limited retrace with the land thing instead.
===
and yeah, I probably frequent these forums more than I should...
I appreciate the clarifications, Bob, and see the logic behind it all.
I run the Kelpie too, and with that out and both Spellweaver and Grace in the yard... I can match/surpass any Azami's CA... all while gaining Blockers.
I appreciate the clarifications, Bob, and see the logic behind it all.
I run the Kelpie too, and with that out and both Spellweaver and Grace in the yard... I can match/surpass any Azami's CA... all while gaining Blockers.
My T&L deck runs it with the cost reducers, and it's something I extended to my Talrand mockup.
reducing the cost by 2 with kelpie/secrets/or mystic essentially turns your lands in ancestral recalls. I hear that card is good.
I've only once managed to get the 2 cost reduction out with both secrets and kelpie, but dear god... running having 30 ancestral recalls suddenly available to you is insane.
The deck is very general-dependent, so it would be good to have powerful alternatives...
What about a polymorph/mass-polymorph/Proteus Staff toolbox with some good creatures?
The general produces lots of drakes, but if he dies or gets tucked, there is not much left, except lots of draw and a some good sorceries. Some huge guys could change a lot and ploymorphing into them using the drakes is just nice. And proteus Staff can tuck opponents generals as well.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
also got mentioned and ignored - gravitational shift. You've got very few creatures on the ground, so the vast majority will be your drakes...double power and taking less damage from enemy attacks is pretty rad. Even if your opponent has bigger flyers, more power makes it easier to trade silly drakes for expensive flyers, which your opponents aren't likely to want to do.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Merrow Reejerey is too narrow in my opinion. I would rather just bulk up on flash effects or more free counters.
Azami, Lady of Scrolls ehhh she is ok but not what I am looking for here. I want cheap cards and the ability to move through them quickly. The reason I run Magus of the Future instead is that I could potentially chain lots of effects off of him each turn vs just drawing like 2 cards a turn.
I have been playing with flash a bit in my mono red deck and I agree with your assessment of it being amazing. It might require more of a surprise / flash playing the commander here... I was just having too many problems sticking him considering he can get out of hand stupidly fast. All of the creature hate that comes against you will be aimed at your commander.
Thanks, based off of my experience with it I would further decrease the cost of the spells, axe a lot of the expensive stuff that isnt really neccesary and increase the amount of fast cantrip / filter / draw.
Coat of Arms got cut early on because while it is great and all, I literally win or loose games based off of keeping my commander in play. If I get a bunch of tokens out I would just rather have the extra turns which spawn creatures still and also give me more combat steps. The advantage it has is that it goes off bigger however I found that these sort of effects are usually an all or nothing in their usefulness. Something like Time Warp can still be used as a cantrip / untap even if I don't have a position to win with.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I like the idea of lowering the curve but I want the cantrips to lead me somewhere bigger if I add more of them. I might employ some mono colored mana doubles as they can pump my team and maybe give me some late game with some of the draw x spells. I am adding Wipe Away and maybe Boomerang. I only played one game but could have killed two or maybe three people if I had been able to get rid of a Vish Kal for a turn or two.
I felt the deck lacked reach and staying power, not card quality. Of course with a monoblue tokens aggro deck based purely on the general... reach might be hard to get.
GWUBAtraxa, Praetor's Voice PrimerGWUB
GWURoon Bant Blink WhateverGWU
BRGLord Windgrace LandsBRG
edit: just came across and reread my knowledge pool. Seems sweet in a particular brand of talrand. Two casts per spell, plus you can steal big ones with your cantrips.
I threw together a Talrand Deck for s's & g's (really undertuned w/ 25+ cantrips, no boots/cloak/greaves, no erayo) and I have in there as I thought it sounded like, with Crucible of Worlds out, you always have an EOT draw/token-maker, if you really need it (CoW = less of a sting).
Retrace is a static ability that works from the Grave Yard to allow you to cast the spell for an alternate cost from a different location.
The normal rules for casting a spell still apply. When you cast Oona's Grace from the retrace ability, you would announce that you are casting the spell, and move it from where it is (GY) to the stack. You then pay all costs, including discard a land from your hand as an additional cost to the 2U. When you complete the process of casting the spell, any player may respond to it while it is on the stack. When it resolves, it leaves the stack and is placed into your Graveyard.
Flashback is a different ability/aternate cost.
Crucible of Worlds alone isn't enough. You need a land to discard from your hand to retrace. Crucible lets you play the land from your GY (Gy -> battlefield). It does allow for extra spells though, as you can pitch the land you would play to retrace, and then play it from the graveyard.
An extra card such as Trade Routes, Storm Cauldron, or Oboro, palace in the clouds, or some of the blue moonfolk could be used to return your lands to your hand.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I want to snap at you, Bob, but I know you're there just trying to help clarify. You're... always... there...
I asked my question understanding how the stack works, how Flashback and Retrace are separate mechanics, and was 90% in understanding of Retrace's mechanics. The only thing I was making sure of was any general rule that states that any Instant of Sorcery cast from the GY gets exiled, resolved or not. (My instincts told me the Retrace reminder text said nothing about exiling, thus it stays... but I like making sure of things.)
As for Crucible, I was well aware of its functions and limitations. I was well aware fact that OG made me pitch a land. In fact I was happy about it as it basically makes the downside of OG's Retrace, the land pitch, irrelevant. I don't mind if said land gets back to my hand after pitching it when CoW is out, because it's coming into play next turn. (If CoW is destroyed before then, then, obviously, I'd be salty.)
I use OG's Retrace EoT on the opponent-before-my-turn's turn. Pitch the land to help pay the retrace, then get to play said land on my turn.. not to mention w/ Tally out I get a attack ready Drake, too. If I'm lucky, either the draw from OG, or my Draw-step, nets me another land.
I'll admit I should never have said "whenever you really need it" as I made it sound like you can retrace OG with CoW out at any time you had the open mana (as the land pitch issue will be non-existent).
Heh. Sorry about that. I don't mean to imply anything when I answer a rules question; I just try to always answer them as completely possible, since other people may read it, so I'm answering it to everyone, not just you. Also, all I have to go off of is what's written in the post, so it's better to explain more, than assume and explain less (I've made that mistake too, before).
The same thing with the Crucible; the way you had worded it, I wanted to be sure that not only you, but anyone else who read through the question, didn't get the wrong impression.
I also wanted to tap in the Trade Routes, as routes/crucible are both solid cards, and work very well together. Add in retrace like Oona's, and things that trigger from it like Talrand, River Kelpie, or Secrets of the Dead... and... well... you have one of my favorite sets of interactions in the game. (especially when you reduce the cost)
===
As far as exile v flashback, there is no rule about exiling spells cast from the graveyard; it's only a very common theme in design, in order to limit the scope and reach of the effect. Many other abilities exile the spell afterwards, so it's a recurring theme (Spellweaver Volute, Yawgmoth's Will) and Boesium Strip for example) but this is done for design reasons, as those effects would otherwise have extremely powerful reach. Design wise, they limited retrace with the land thing instead.
===
and yeah, I probably frequent these forums more than I should...
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
I appreciate the clarifications, Bob, and see the logic behind it all.
I run the Kelpie too, and with that out and both Spellweaver and Grace in the yard... I can match/surpass any Azami's CA... all while gaining Blockers.
My T&L deck runs it with the cost reducers, and it's something I extended to my Talrand mockup.
reducing the cost by 2 with kelpie/secrets/or mystic essentially turns your lands in ancestral recalls. I hear that card is good.
I've only once managed to get the 2 cost reduction out with both secrets and kelpie, but dear god... running having 30 ancestral recalls suddenly available to you is insane.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
What about a polymorph/mass-polymorph/Proteus Staff toolbox with some good creatures?
The general produces lots of drakes, but if he dies or gets tucked, there is not much left, except lots of draw and a some good sorceries. Some huge guys could change a lot and ploymorphing into them using the drakes is just nice. And proteus Staff can tuck opponents generals as well.
WUBCycling ZurWUB
WGRJohanWGR