So out of 7 decks you played against 5 of which you won against with hypergenesis only one was creature reliant. Which is pretty atypical for edh. The first game only shows that you're making bad plays because of hypergenesis. Why keep a bad hand on the off chance of hypergenesis?
Your third game sounds like magic Christmas land, and wouldve been in a lot more trouble if those eldrazi hadn't been from the same person. All I'm saying is that within hours of me disagreeing with hypergenesis and within less than half a week of the card being spoiled you have ungodly results from hypergenesis and an undefeated record, but then again it was from a bunch of generals that wouldn't really have the beats anyway.
To answer the first bit:
Certainly, it's a small sample size. I haven't said anything to suggest that I believe this to be an awesome, over the top, and completely insane combo(ish) deck. Just that my first few games have either been flipped by it, or the deck's just generated insane advantage over others... thus far. Having goldfished it a few times and played in Three games has generated a starting point to how I want to make it better. I was asked for example matches, so I posted tonight's test games. That's all.
The first game I kept a reasonable hand that didn't even have the ability to cascade into hypergenesis. I drew into that.
If I recall, it was something like 2 lands, a Farhaven Elf, a Coaltion Relic, Primeval Titan, Clone, and a Fierce Empath. Since my deck doesn't do anything until turn 3, I figured I had 3 draws to find a land, which would have then quickly turned into a titan, fierce empath for avenger, die.
I didn't draw land until turn 5, but i did find a Violent Outburst, letting me cascade into hypergenesis after I had Fierce Empath'd for Terastodon.
Third game really was magical christmas-land as far as hand-scultping powers go, but of course such games do actually exist. Playing Jace in the deck is basically saying "kill me or I'm going to explode the field a few times" Having Drawn the hypergenesis, I had either the option of casting it with a three turn clock, or going all lulz with the general, and then completely destroying everyone. I like option B.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
EDIT: Wait a minute, lets look at these card choices you made. The first two are solid, even though I don't like the idea of having anything in here 8+ cause it's clunky with wanderer, Ulamog is awkward I guess you still get a fatty out of it, and the Dread Cacodemon not only can't be in the deck but doesnt even work, if it did, that would just be a reason to NOT run hyper genesis for when your opponent plays it. I already covered Ixidron.
It's ridiculous how hung up you and the other guy got up on the card choices...I'm wasn't talking about Hypergenesis in this deck, I wasn't talking about the absolute optimal play with Hypergenesis, all I was doing was explaining to people the type of cards to play to give yourself the best possible Hypergenesis dump. Spells/creatures that destroy whatever the other person is dumping into play. Not noticing that Dread Cacodemon effect doesn't work with Hypergenesis was my fault though.
Certainly, it's a small sample size. I haven't said anything to suggest that I believe this to be an awesome, over the top, and completely insane combo(ish) deck. Just that my first few games have either been flipped by it, or the deck's just generated insane advantage over others... thus far. Having goldfished it a few times and played in Three games has generated a starting point to how I want to make it better. I was asked for example matches, so I posted tonight's test games. That's all.
The first game I kept a reasonable hand that didn't even have the ability to cascade into hypergenesis. I drew into that.
If I recall, it was something like 2 lands, a Farhaven Elf, a Coaltion Relic, Primeval Titan, Clone, and a Fierce Empath. Since my deck doesn't do anything until turn 3, I figured I had 3 draws to find a land, which would have then quickly turned into a titan, fierce empath for avenger, die.
I didn't draw land until turn 5, but i did find a Violent Outburst, letting me cascade into hypergenesis after I had Fierce Empath'd for Terastodon.
Third game really was magical christmas-land as far as hand-scultping powers go, but of course such games do actually exist. Playing Jace in the deck is basically saying "kill me or I'm going to explode the field a few times" Having Drawn the hypergenesis, I had either the option of casting it with a three turn clock, or going all lulz with the general, and then completely destroying everyone. I like option B.
You also have to look at what you played against, like I said out of the 7 only one posed a real downside to playing hypergensis, which isn't realistic at all in normal edh games. Most of the time, most of the people are going to have plenty of nice targets in hand to plop down from hypergensis, especially the rest of the table as a whole. Also, against all those blue decks you played against I don't see why it wasnt countered at all. I guess they figured they could get the edge on you from it... seems like a bad thought process against the deck that runs it.
Doesn't do anything until turn 3? Are you running no 0-2 cmc cards for violent outburst? This seems like a huge handicap for one conditional counterable card.
It's ridiculous how hung up you and the other guy got up on the card choices...I'm wasn't talking about Hypergenesis in this deck, I wasn't talking about the absolute optimal play with Hypergenesis, all I was doing was explaining to people the type of cards to play to give yourself the best possible Hypergenesis dump. Spells/creatures that destroy whatever the other person is dumping into play. Not noticing that Dread Cacodemon effect doesn't work with Hypergenesis was my fault though.
I find it ridiculous you're talking about using a card outside of this deck within this thread, by supporting out of deck choices you only make the idea of using hypergenesis in this deck even worse, by showing how bad the negative side effects can be. What if somebody waits until you dump your hand and then puts down ixidron? Seems like you completely neutered yourself. What if cacodemon worked? Seems like less incentive to have it here.
I wasn't talking about whether or not you could use good creatures to put down with hypergenesis, I was talking about how bad it is to let everyone else put good permanents down with hypergenesis. What happens when someone puts down Myr Battlesphere and Darksteel Forge? Seems bad. Obviously Hypergenesis can be used effectively, but more often than not it's going to back fire.
Amazingly heated debate over this thread. I appreciate that people are already discussing a general that hasn't even been released yet. So kudos to the OP.
I really like Dream Halls in this deck. I also feel as if it does not have enough ramp and that most of the ramp should be the 2 lands into play green sorceries, thran dynamo, big return stuff.
Completely agree with whoever said you shouldn't run anything your general can't cascade into no matter how strong they are. I love Vorinclex and Jin-Gitaxis but they simply don't make the cut.
I really see this as being a Timmy and a Johnny card. You run multiple ways to bounce stuff so you can consistantly get the wanderer back into your hand and fill it full of rug bombs. You can also run a subtheme of cascade, storm, retrace stuff with a much stronger importance on your curve so you can consistantly be putting pressure all the way up to your 8 mana, I win, general.
And about the 5 cards that cant be cascaded into, what is the worst thing that can happen? they get put to the bottom and you cascade into something else. It would be an entirely different thing if they ruined your cascade. Now, the spells with X are a different story, which is why I am considering taking out Primordial Hydra
Amazingly heated debate over this thread. I appreciate that people are already discussing a general that hasn't even been released yet. So kudos to the OP.
I really like Dream Halls in this deck. I also feel as if it does not have enough ramp and that most of the ramp should be the 2 lands into play green sorceries, thran dynamo, big return stuff.
Completely agree with whoever said you shouldn't run anything your general can't cascade into no matter how strong they are. I love Vorinclex and Jin-Gitaxis but they simply don't make the cut.
I really see this as being a Timmy and a Johnny card. You run multiple ways to bounce stuff so you can consistantly get the wanderer back into your hand and fill it full of rug bombs. You can also run a subtheme of cascade, storm, retrace stuff with a much stronger importance on your curve so you can consistantly be putting pressure all the way up to your 8 mana, I win, general.
Dream Halls is nice, never connected that card and edh before, surprised to see that it doesn't have any hand requirements.
And about the 5 cards that cant be cascaded into, what is the worst thing that can happen? they get put to the bottom and you cascade into something else. It would be an entirely different thing if they ruined your cascade. Now, the spells with X are a different story, which is why I am considering taking out Primordial Hydra
Well you could take it out for Dream Halls, and I'd definetely take out Jin-Gitaxias and Vorinclex. I'm iffy about Hellkite, but I could definetely see Terastodon staying in. Bounce and ramp are the things you should think about adding.
Also, instead of Blaphemous Act, why not Chain Reaction? Cascadable into.
I can't believe people are suggesting you take out Bogardan Hellkite. It's a good card that is a conditionally insane card, killing up to 6 creatures with one card (something like being attacked with a Primeval, an Avenger, and its 0/1 tokens and then responding to Primeval trigger with Hellkite is not outside the realm of possibility).
To people suggesting playing more ramp spells: Playing a lot of ramp spells that fetch lands and then casting Jokulhaups / Devastation is a terrible idea, as decks that aren't ramping with lands will recover quicker than you. I would play Thran Dynamo and Gilded Lotus before things like Explosive Vegetation or Skyshroud Claim. A turn 4 Dynamo gives you 8 mana on turn 5. Don't get me wrong, I do agree you need to play more ramp, but it should be in the form of artifacts if you're going to play mass land destruction.
Primordial Hydra is in fact stupidly good by itself, but you've taken out the two counterspells you had and don't run anything like Asceticism. There's no way you can protect it, and it's terrible off cascade.. it needs to go.
Dragon Broodmother seems really out of place in this deck. A free 1/1 flyer every upkeep is good if you need chump blockers, but you don't have anything that cares about many tokens. I've played it in decks that do care about tokens, and even there it's too slow.
Wow. When this guy was first spoiled I thought, "cute." But this thread has revealed some pretty awesome, bombtastic moves for him. I'm thinking I will convert my Riku deck BACK to Warp World combo and use this guy instead (another mass-haste card is good). Lots of potential there!
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It costs 8, so you can't cascade into it, is more downside than upside, dependant on other cards to win, doesn't do anything when it comes into play, and isn't nearly on par with Jin, terastadon, or hellkite.
It costs 8, so you can't cascade into it, is more downside than upside, dependant on other cards to win, doesn't do anything when it comes into play, and isn't nearly on par with Jin, terastadon, or hellkite.
Possibly. Akroma's memorial is just so versatile in its abilities, and it is so good with a General that doesnt have flying/trample already. Couple that with the pro black, and its just amazing, and the fact that it can be cascaded into is just gravy.
A random thought but Dragon Wings might be an interesting card to consider due to the fact that it will auto rez and equip to a lot of the fatties including the commander to give evasion plus it cycles away for a fast draw. It might not be a big enough effect and it would be sort of a lame cascade into target but it does do good things and cycles away when drawn just to auto rez.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
No it does not. The storm effect triggers off of the casting of the spell. Using copy effects simply puts another copy of the spell on the stack it does not re cast the spell so you will not storm again off of it.
EDIT: also I personally think you should scrap Mind's Desire from the list. It is at its best in a storm deck to enable more storm copies and I just dont see how random cards from the deck will do much here. It will be hard to effectively kick out for more than 2 cards as well and considering they are random cards I just don't know if it is worth the slot. Again if you wanted to go further into the storm out style deck I think it would be better but I just don't see it doing much here currently. Unless I am wrong there is no way to manipulate the library between the shuffle and exile effect on it.
A few other things I have an issue with... well for one the average CC of the list is really high. There are several effects in here that you cant even cascade into due to being too large and I think the curve needs to come down.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger He costs 8 mana, he cant be copied or cascaded into. Sure he provides for more mana but is often quickly dealt with due to being a total pain in the ass. You already have Mana Reflections, I just see this as sort of a high mana fatty that isnt really needed here.
Bogardan Hellkite He was cute in standard but seriously in EDH he is so underwhelming. He cant be cascaded into and it takes 6 damage usually to kill any serious threat in EDH. Your mana is better spent elsewhere in my opinion.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur The big reason to run Jin in EDH in my mind is that you are either running a permission or rez style of deck and this deck is neither. If you want a big finisher use Ulamog as combined with our commander he can wreck 5 things when he comes down. Indestructable means he is harder to deal with, he annihilates resources and destroys something on cast. He wont come back to bite you in the ass when a black player reanimates him either. In my mind Ulamog is just so much of a better option considering that this deck is rez light and with our commander being a haste outlet I just see Ulamog doing more productive things.
To answer the first bit:
Certainly, it's a small sample size. I haven't said anything to suggest that I believe this to be an awesome, over the top, and completely insane combo(ish) deck. Just that my first few games have either been flipped by it, or the deck's just generated insane advantage over others... thus far. Having goldfished it a few times and played in Three games has generated a starting point to how I want to make it better. I was asked for example matches, so I posted tonight's test games. That's all.
The first game I kept a reasonable hand that didn't even have the ability to cascade into hypergenesis. I drew into that.
If I recall, it was something like 2 lands, a Farhaven Elf, a Coaltion Relic, Primeval Titan, Clone, and a Fierce Empath. Since my deck doesn't do anything until turn 3, I figured I had 3 draws to find a land, which would have then quickly turned into a titan, fierce empath for avenger, die.
I didn't draw land until turn 5, but i did find a Violent Outburst, letting me cascade into hypergenesis after I had Fierce Empath'd for Terastodon.
Third game really was magical christmas-land as far as hand-scultping powers go, but of course such games do actually exist. Playing Jace in the deck is basically saying "kill me or I'm going to explode the field a few times" Having Drawn the hypergenesis, I had either the option of casting it with a three turn clock, or going all lulz with the general, and then completely destroying everyone. I like option B.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
It's ridiculous how hung up you and the other guy got up on the card choices...I'm wasn't talking about Hypergenesis in this deck, I wasn't talking about the absolute optimal play with Hypergenesis, all I was doing was explaining to people the type of cards to play to give yourself the best possible Hypergenesis dump. Spells/creatures that destroy whatever the other person is dumping into play. Not noticing that Dread Cacodemon effect doesn't work with Hypergenesis was my fault though.
Doesn't do anything until turn 3? Are you running no 0-2 cmc cards for violent outburst? This seems like a huge handicap for one conditional counterable card.
I find it ridiculous you're talking about using a card outside of this deck within this thread, by supporting out of deck choices you only make the idea of using hypergenesis in this deck even worse, by showing how bad the negative side effects can be. What if somebody waits until you dump your hand and then puts down ixidron? Seems like you completely neutered yourself. What if cacodemon worked? Seems like less incentive to have it here.
I wasn't talking about whether or not you could use good creatures to put down with hypergenesis, I was talking about how bad it is to let everyone else put good permanents down with hypergenesis. What happens when someone puts down Myr Battlesphere and Darksteel Forge? Seems bad. Obviously Hypergenesis can be used effectively, but more often than not it's going to back fire.
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and fall under the general's colors of Blue, Red or Green.
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I really like Dream Halls in this deck. I also feel as if it does not have enough ramp and that most of the ramp should be the 2 lands into play green sorceries, thran dynamo, big return stuff.
Completely agree with whoever said you shouldn't run anything your general can't cascade into no matter how strong they are. I love Vorinclex and Jin-Gitaxis but they simply don't make the cut.
I really see this as being a Timmy and a Johnny card. You run multiple ways to bounce stuff so you can consistantly get the wanderer back into your hand and fill it full of rug bombs. You can also run a subtheme of cascade, storm, retrace stuff with a much stronger importance on your curve so you can consistantly be putting pressure all the way up to your 8 mana, I win, general.
And about the 5 cards that cant be cascaded into, what is the worst thing that can happen? they get put to the bottom and you cascade into something else. It would be an entirely different thing if they ruined your cascade. Now, the spells with X are a different story, which is why I am considering taking out Primordial Hydra
Thinking about adding
Crystal Shard
Bloodbraid Elf(kind of more cute than anything)
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another Idea is Leyline of anticipation. Flashing him out.
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Well you could take it out for Dream Halls, and I'd definetely take out Jin-Gitaxias and Vorinclex. I'm iffy about Hellkite, but I could definetely see Terastodon staying in. Bounce and ramp are the things you should think about adding.
Also, instead of Blaphemous Act, why not Chain Reaction? Cascadable into.
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You should play Wood Elves before Farhaven Elf because you're playing Tropical Island, Breeding Pool, and Stomping Ground.
To people suggesting playing more ramp spells: Playing a lot of ramp spells that fetch lands and then casting Jokulhaups / Devastation is a terrible idea, as decks that aren't ramping with lands will recover quicker than you. I would play Thran Dynamo and Gilded Lotus before things like Explosive Vegetation or Skyshroud Claim. A turn 4 Dynamo gives you 8 mana on turn 5. Don't get me wrong, I do agree you need to play more ramp, but it should be in the form of artifacts if you're going to play mass land destruction.
Primordial Hydra is in fact stupidly good by itself, but you've taken out the two counterspells you had and don't run anything like Asceticism. There's no way you can protect it, and it's terrible off cascade.. it needs to go.
Dragon Broodmother seems really out of place in this deck. A free 1/1 flyer every upkeep is good if you need chump blockers, but you don't have anything that cares about many tokens. I've played it in decks that do care about tokens, and even there it's too slow.
-Farhaven Elf
-Dragon Broodmother
+Wood Elves
+Thran Dynamo
+Dream Halls
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Currently playing
WE DEMAND A SACRIFICE
Night Shift
Karrthus, Tyrant of Dragons
Some of you may think that you have made great mistakes in your lives, and perhaps you have. But let me ask you this.... did you ever play strip poker with two fat chicks and win?
Cockatrice name: Ninja Nate
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pretty much this.
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[Modern] Allies
You're not the first, only, or last one. I too am working on a proxy test play right now. And there will be many after us.
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EDIT: also I personally think you should scrap Mind's Desire from the list. It is at its best in a storm deck to enable more storm copies and I just dont see how random cards from the deck will do much here. It will be hard to effectively kick out for more than 2 cards as well and considering they are random cards I just don't know if it is worth the slot. Again if you wanted to go further into the storm out style deck I think it would be better but I just don't see it doing much here currently. Unless I am wrong there is no way to manipulate the library between the shuffle and exile effect on it.
A few other things I have an issue with... well for one the average CC of the list is really high. There are several effects in here that you cant even cascade into due to being too large and I think the curve needs to come down.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger He costs 8 mana, he cant be copied or cascaded into. Sure he provides for more mana but is often quickly dealt with due to being a total pain in the ass. You already have Mana Reflections, I just see this as sort of a high mana fatty that isnt really needed here.
Bogardan Hellkite He was cute in standard but seriously in EDH he is so underwhelming. He cant be cascaded into and it takes 6 damage usually to kill any serious threat in EDH. Your mana is better spent elsewhere in my opinion.
Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur The big reason to run Jin in EDH in my mind is that you are either running a permission or rez style of deck and this deck is neither. If you want a big finisher use Ulamog as combined with our commander he can wreck 5 things when he comes down. Indestructable means he is harder to deal with, he annihilates resources and destroys something on cast. He wont come back to bite you in the ass when a black player reanimates him either. In my mind Ulamog is just so much of a better option considering that this deck is rez light and with our commander being a haste outlet I just see Ulamog doing more productive things.
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[Modern] Allies