you can't really swing with Benevolent Bodyguard and get his effect, you just still have the ability to use his effect is all. I still agree that Devoted Caretaker is slow and subpar for this deck but I don't totally agree that Bodyguard is the solution. He is a one-shot effect that everyone can see coming and will likely get chumpped if you're trying to swing with him and people want him gone.
I've also started thinking that Exoskeleton isn't what a Jor Kadeen deck really wants, but at the same time I think that Jitte is equally slow. I feel like almost all the equipment in the deck isn't proactive enough. Greaves / Battle-Axe are great free haste enablers. Darksteel Plate is fantastic to survive wraths and SoLaS is a perfect recovery tool. The rest of the stuff is only meh, and I don't often find myself wanting to search for it. In it's place more proactive cards (like reveillark) or some other things like Tanglewire and Uba Mask which would keep the metalcraft count up while enabling the stax side of the deck to work.
It seems like you took my advice about subversion to heart when you built this deck. My apologies to your playgroup
That said, let's slaughter some sacred cows. Cards in your deck that fit my definition of cute are:
Savage Beating: I absolutely love this card, but every single time I've drawn it it has either been completely irrelevant or overkill. The main problem with it is that it's so conditional. You need multiple creatures in play, they need to be getting through to hit the face, and your opponent needs to be at a low enough life total for the Beating to be lethal. That's a lot of hoops to jump through.
Gilded Lotus: Looking through your decklist, this appears to be one of the most expensive cmc cards in your deck. Do you really need the extra ramp once you hit 5? I suppose it helps you recast JK after a geddon, but I'd almost rather have an extra land than the Lotus.
Planar Guide: I get that this guy is supposed to be your anti-wrath tech, but he's extremely conditional. First, he has to be in play. Second, you have to leave 3W open at all times. Third, they have to actually have the wrath. In the meantime, he's a puny 1/1 that offers no significant impact on the board. If you want wrath recovery, Reveillark and Sun Titan both do the job better, in addition to being actual relevant bodies. Ghostway is better at protecting your team, because it's only 2W and doesn't advertise itself beforehand.
Devoted Caretaker: This guy basically blanks spot removal. How much spot removal are you realistically facing though? Again, he's super conditional, and has an irrelevant body. If you want protection, I'd recommend Benevolent Bodyguard in its place, because you can protect against so much more with it and it can swing while it's doing its thing.
Grafted Exoskeleton: Six mana to let your general one-shot someone. The thing is, it doesn't grant evasion, JK doesn't have evasion by himself, and the equipment is more-or-less useless on any of your other guys. (No one else has 8 power.) I'd infinitely prefer a SoLaS or Jitte in the place of this card. SoLaS helps you buyback all your utility guys (a lot of them are annoying so they will die, might as well get them back), and Jitte is just a rock solid piece of equipment, even in EDH.
Scroll Rack: I don't see a lot of ways in your deck to either draw cards or shuffle your library, so this card seems supremely subpar. It also doesn't do anything to further your gameplan (it's not proactive), so it seems like it'll just sit around waiting for you to find Land Tax. I get that it helps with metalcraft, but realistically, how often is Rack actually useful?
I'd recommend doing the following:
-the 6 cards I listed above
The first four cards increase your resiliency by quite a bit, and the other two cards offer some solid disruption.
Hey buddy, long time. Thanks for stopping by. Great suggestions - I was actually talking to tempo (guy below your post) about cutting some cards like Scroll Rack because of their relatively low impact on the game. What am I going to be using it for? Scrounging around the top two cards of my deck? Yea, talk about inefficient.
I had similar feelings for just about everything you've mentioned, so I appreciate you coming in here with a heavy hand. Don't really have much to argue, but I would like to ask your opinion on adding a few more Stax cards, such as Smokestack, Uba Mask, and Goblin Welder. They all might be slightly "off" for this deck, but I think have some merit.
you can't really swing with Benevolent Bodyguard and get his effect, you just still have the ability to use his effect is all. I still agree that Devoted Caretaker is slow and subpar for this deck but I don't totally agree that Bodyguard is the solution. He is a one-shot effect that everyone can see coming and will likely get chumpped if you're trying to swing with him and people want him gone.
I've also started thinking that Exoskeleton isn't what a Jor Kadeen deck really wants, but at the same time I think that Jitte is equally slow. I feel like almost all the equipment in the deck isn't proactive enough. Greaves / Battle-Axe are great free haste enablers. Darksteel Plate is fantastic to survive wraths and SoLaS is a perfect recovery tool. The rest of the stuff is only meh, and I don't often find myself wanting to search for it. In it's place more proactive cards (like reveillark) or some other things like Tanglewire and Uba Mask which would keep the metalcraft count up while enabling the stax side of the deck to work.
I actually like Benevolent Bodyguard for the fact that you CAN swing with him. Remember this is multiplayer and there's going to be someone without a blocker. Devoted Caretaker pretty much always has to be untapped, meaning I can't go on the offensive with her unless I'm absolutely sure my opponents are unable to cast anything.
Really? That's interesting, would you run it over Mother of Runes? Also have you noticed that you have the post and I have the deck? Oh to clarify it's no that I don't like Bodyguard of Cartaker, that's an easy decision. It's just that I'm not sure I like bodyguard at all in this deck. He sorta feels meh, a one-shot effect for a really tiny guy. Discuss please
Really? That's interesting, would you run it over Mother of Runes? Also have you noticed that you have the post and I have the deck? Oh to clarify it's no that I don't like Bodyguard of Cartaker, that's an easy decision. It's just that I'm not sure I like bodyguard at all in this deck. He sorta feels meh, a one-shot effect for a really tiny guy. Discuss please
I would not run it over Mother of Runes. I think the key is that neither of them require me to sit around with untapped mana in fear of losing Jor Kadeen, cause that' just inefficient.
About creatures being "meh", that's sorta how the entire deck goes. They're all relevant abilities, but they're on fairly weak creatures. It might make more sense though to read Bodyguard as a 4/1 instead of a 1/1, cause that's how big he'll most likely be in most scenarios. Even the smallest guys can be turned into sizable threats, and also the same reason why I've decided to fill the deck with utility creatures instead of just big, dumb double strikers. The one-shot effect he provides will end up saving you seven mana when you re-cast Jor Kadeen. And for the record, I still like Caretaker, but I can understand that she's a bit cumbersome to keep around.
Oh yea edit here. I'm also not sure what you mean about having the post and you having the deck. If you mean the fact that I have not built this deck yet IRL, I will defend my position by saying I have played Boros in the past, for one, and that I still consistently play LD-style decks. I know how the politics work, although I have never tried a creature-heavy strategy with it.
lol don't be like that. We're all here to learn. Question everything, cause if you don't, I'll be lulled into a mediocre sense of satisfaction with the cards in the list. It's great when people question the deck, because it allows us to reexamine the whole thing. Chongsen's post was pretty frank, but it allowed me to recollect my thoughts all over again.
I considered recommending Goblin Welder, but the decklist you posted didn't have a lot to do with him besides recurring dead equipment and Winter Orb tricks. If you include him, you definitely want to include more artifacts with relevant abilities. Smokestack and Tangle Wire would be a start.
The thing about Bodyguard vs. Caretaker is that both of them have the same role: protect against spot removal. The Bodyguard does that just by being in play (no one is going to walk a spell into it unless they have a follow-up) and it also protects against random creature combat and things like that. All without costing you any mana, plus it's free to swing while doing it. It's not the best creature, but with JK's +3/+0 he's not completely irrelevant on the board. He's obviously no Mother of Runes, but a second creature to fulfill that role can't hurt.
Very cool thread. I recently made a Jor deck that is very similar to this (land destruction with some white graveyard recursion). A few suggestions and some food for thought:
While you haven't built the deck yet, try a bunch of starter hands. See how many lands you get in your starting hand. Yes, this is a lando deck, but consistently making your first 3-4 land drops is huge. I started with a low land count and a lot of mana rocks but found the sweet spot for me was about 15 rocks and 35 land.
I know you took out Sunforger, but you may want to reconsider. You stated that the combo is too cute and I can see your point. But, remember: the cards you can pull with Sunforger are not dead cards by themselves. Condemn, Sword to Plowshares, Wild Ricochet, Tithe etc are still great cards -especially in multiplayer (for me they have proven their worth several times over). Sunforger just allows you to tutor them as answers when needed. But this may be something we agree to disagree.
Some more Lando cards for your consideration: Boil - Instant speed blue hate. Meta choice really (and I really hate blue. Also tutorable with the forger) Wake of Destruction - Direct hate at a particular color. A tad expensive but great for sniping in multiplayer.
Also: Stick with the white recursion. Sun Titan, Karmic Guide, Rev, etc have all proven to pull their weight. Last game I was able to use Sun Titan as a psuedo Cruicible of Worlds fetching and refetching Strip Mine. Of course, that card depends on the ban list your using, but you get the point.
Glad I could offer some help for you here, and really like some of the changes you've made. I went back over the list and frankly these two cards can just go. Savage Beating Scroll Rack
To me Savage Beating looks like it could wiff often and doesn't look very good as a top deck if your desperately searching for a geddon effect or something to help you stall until then. If you resolve a geddon though... the difference in 1 attack phase to finish someone and 2 is very minor and i think consistancy would be better suited than the random swift victory this could offer.
Scroll Rack you've already nailed down pretty well, your just dicking around with the top two cards of your library or whatever and the overall effect seems negligable. Saddly i think Crystal Ball would perform better than scroll rack in this deck.
Having said that those are the two cards I would suggest cutting for whatever. I hear the arguments made against cards like devouted caretaker. However the counter point is that she serves as mother of runes 2.0 and i don't see or hear any arguments for removing her so to me I think its a bad reason to consider removing critters that tap to make effects happen. They are giving the pilot options... "something I should worry about I use the creatures defensively or the geddon resolved they can't do anything im worried about anyway i use the creatures offensively" At least this was my impression. If its seriously an issue why not attempt to include an Angel's Trumpet? Its the only reasonable artifact vigilance giver and if your general is on the board (and looking pretty smug behind the protection of mother/devouted) your opponents arn't going to want to attack into a group of 4/x's that have the ability to gain protection, or jor kadeen himself with his first strike. But the flip side is they may very well throw enough blockers in the way so don't consider this a real suggestion... more like a thought.
3 things however i'm still feeling like your deck is lacking though it has improved... card advantage, recursion and critter count. Card draw isn't something you are going to find alot of optimum answers for in R/ but that doesn't mean you can't try for some.
Wheel of Fortune - if you don't have a budget. If you are ahead with mana sources then this card can perform well. Your opposition MAY draw into recovery lands/artifacts faster than you want BUT if they are behind the curve this can be offset greatly by giving you alot more gas to go with... not to mention another geddon effect
Chandra Ablaze - Planeswalkers are already pretty busted when all lands wiped clean (i know i love having them around post Death Cloud), but consider that her tiny wheel of fortune could simply be just gas for you and cycling the hand of your opponents. 4RR may be a little steep but thats the cost of two wheel of fortunes anyway which is the minimum you can get out of her. The alternate use (though i don't expect this to be used if ever except in small corner cases) is to allow you to turn around and rip the lands apart again essentially keeping a table pinned down. That could just be win-more though but i think its worth consideration.
Ranger of Eos - This guy is just a body that says draw two cards to your hand. Sure you may be fairly limited in what does or doesn't get put into your hand but he's a form of card advantage.
Goblin Welder - Even outside of a Ranger of Eos package this guy seems pretty relavant towards your deck. There are alot of small interactions that can have a huge impact on your game. Personally i think he's a little more valuable than mother of runes but to each his own. Ignoring the fact that he can work as psuedo removal for an opponents artifacts lets take a look at some relavant stuff he can do for you.
- About to geddon? Why not turn your ancient den into that guilded lotus that was popped earlier.
- A must answer Blightsteel Colossus just hit the table? How about we turn this Marble Diamond into Duplicant.
- One mana away from hard cycling that decree of annihilation? Screw it lets turn this Whispersilk cloak into Great Furnace
- How can I go about casting and swinging for lethal on this turn? Hell yea, tap this Boros Signet for mana, then exchange it for Obsidian Battle-axe, then cast my general.
Here are another two that I think (for creatures) that could use some minor consideration. Dust Elemental - I personally loved this guy with EtB abilities, he's a cheap super evasive beater who can double as a bit of wrath protection. Might not be the most obvious use but the next time someone goes to wrath away your board position, flash in the dust elemental pull back your 3 favorite creatures... you just earned yourself +2 Card advantage and probably annoyed your opponent.
Stonecloaker - Not exactly the same level as dust elemental but he does some fairly nice work on a smaller scale. Saves a dude from targeted removal (without disrupting your creature progression) allows the reuse of an EtB ability AND as a minor added bonus removes a card from an opponents gy.
I going to second (or third) Wheel Of Fortune the card is simply fantastic in reloading your hand in a deck without much card draw and that dumps its hand quickly.
Would you be able to explain why Puresteel Paladin and Stonehewer Giant are in the list, because you are only running 8 equipments which makes puresteel paladin a bit weak?
I think it might be too high on your curve but batterskull could actually be alright here. Very strong with stoneforger mystic at the very least. I am not sure if it is too "cute" though. Its an efficient beater by itself and can be returned to your hand once dead to beat some more.
Sorry if my suggestions aren't super helpful.
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I really don't like Goodstuff, which makes me a Self-Proclaimed EDH Hipster. I'm also an avid theory-crafter, most of which are terrible.
I've found, at least in the case of Stonehewer Giant, that the equipment that are run in the deck are super powerful, SoLaS, Greaves, and Battle-Axe are all huge and having the ability to search them out has never let me down.
Never dropped the paladin (having never dew him in the 5ish games I've had it in the deck) BUT I'd think that Leonin Shikari would be better in any case since I always find myself wanting speedy equipment not free ones. Though on the other hand I do ALWAYS find myself wanting more cards so they're almost even for the amount of effect they'd have. TOSS UP lol
Wheel of Fortune...yeah...
Chandra Ablaze, hmmm I kinda want to try this now too
Ranger = DO IT I second, third, fourth, and oh hell, ALL of the recommend this guy.
I want to try running angel's trumpet now and see how badly it gets me killed in my Jor deck. Sounds like a fun way to get rid of blockers.
So I actually built this deck tonight and ran it for a good 5 games. I must say that I was impressed, and that a few of my earlier judgments were way off. The first thing I want to say is that Jor Kadeen, the card itself, is truly amazing. He really turns on the heat and can kill players in the blink of an eye. The second thing I was impressed with tonight were with the additions of Iron Myr, Gold Myr, Palladium Myr, and Alloy Myr. Sounds silly right? Well, these guys are nothing short of amazing. Their function is literally three-fold: metalcraft, acceleration, and damage. I have nothing but great things to say about these guys, so try them - they're mana rocks that attack! I'm going to consider adding Manakin and Scuttlemutt over some mana rocks that I currently run. Yes, they're that impressive. The third thing I was impressed by was how little I cared about card advantage. People who analyze Boros are too obsessed with putting in fail-safes - you've got to be aggressive and build the deck around tempo. After you build tempo, build on denial. This is a unique concept in EDH, cause most people are used to playing the arms race. Now here's a new deck that comes out the gates in the first few turns, full force, and then seals it by the fifth turn with a geddon. I also included the Stax package, and man that was extremely strong too! I'm definitely going to add more of those elements into the deck; Tangle Wire was amazing all night.
Now that I've splurged all over the good stuff, let me go over what wasn't so hot. I was actually rather unimpressed by the offensive equipment in the deck. Granted, I only really run Obsidian Battle-Axe and Sword of Fire and Ice, I always felt like they were too clunky unless my curve played out perfectly. I thought that I would've needed cards like Mask of Memory to make sure I keep my cards flowing, but most of the time I just didn't care. I'd rather have more density in creatures, acceleration, or disruption. I think I'm going to boot some equipment in favor of those three categories, or at least run more protection equipment over offensive equipment. Jor Kadeen, by himself, can kill a player outright when equipped with a Whispersilk Cloak. This also means I'm going to ditch a few cards, like Stonehewer Giant and Steelshaper's Gift. I just never felt like I wanted or even needed them.
Ok so maybe I was wrong - the deck could use a few removal spells. Not a ton, but just enough so that you can get rid of problematic creatures. Not really impressed by Parallax Wave today - it was slow, I never wanted to use it defensively, but most of all, the effect was too temporary. I'd rather have just run Swords to Plowshares. I'm going to have to look more into this. Some other cards I'm not 100% sure of include:
The first two are mainly because the deck has a hard time generating tons of colored mana, let alone keeping them all open. I'd probably ditch 8.5 Tails for Devoted Caretaker. I'm also going to add in Leonin Arbiter. I cut Puresteel Paladin, and will probably favor trying Grafted Wargear and Ronin Warclub.
I'll post a more cohesive list of changes soon (it's like 630 AM and I haven't slept yet). But it was fun. Not exactly my playstyle, but it was interesting and enjoyable. Also, stop talking about Wheel of Fortune. The last thing I want to do is help refill my opponents hands or allow them to filter into their answers. This deck doesn't need gas - it's extremely good at what it does, so it needs consistency and density instead.
Just wanted to make sure you know, if you pull all the counters off wave in response to each other the LTB effect triggers before the creatures are removed, allowing you to effectivly exile up to 5 creatures for 4 mana. Though you don't need all 5 targets, if there are just 2 annoying creaturess just target multiple times, never need to pass priority and you can just get rid of em.
In my list, I have found that Godo, Bandit Warlord fetching Sword of Vengeance has been pretty backbreaking. The two together are fine, but when you are able to attach the sword to creature you play on the next turn it's pretty lights out. Vigilance and haste seem to be especially important in this deck and being able to get two attacks out of the two creatures compounds that.
But ask the other times sword of vengeance is just a piece of dumb equipment that costs a bunch to put on a guy. It isn't as effective asother equipment which have some game impact such as solas which acts as recursion or lightning greaves which are free haste and shroud. Besides those combo is 9 mana, howoften do you find yourself with that much mana? I know I never have, I usually try to get off an armageddon before I get there
Out of curiosity, what was the average play strategy in the first few turns?
Also your build seems heavy on artifact destruction, but not so much on enchantment removal, is that dictated by your specific meta or something I am missing?
Out of curiosity, what was the average play strategy in the first few turns?
Also your build seems heavy on artifact destruction, but not so much on enchantment removal, is that dictated by your specific meta or something I am missing?
Since the curve is low, the first few turns are generally spent dumping your hand of artifacts and creatures. Jor will usually hit play turn 3 or 4 (although oftentimes turn 2), and you can begin your offense. Generally you want to keep a hand with an accelerant, a red and white source, and some form of land disruption. It's cool if you don't have the LD, but it's imperative that you have acceleration so you can cast Jor early and recuperate if he is removed. I must say that the majority of the decks in my meta are not prepared for a turn 3 Jor and turn 4 geddon, where I then begin to kill players in two attack phases, one at a time.
The build is heavy on artifact destruction for a reason. The only thing keeping players in the game after a geddon are stray artifacts like Coalition Relic. I haven't run into too many problematic enchantments, but adjust your deck accordingly.
Dispatch is good, and I have added it in my latest build (which I have not posted yet - will do that soon).
Puresteel Paladin seems like he'd do well in this deck. I'm new to MTG and excited about EDH. Just opened a Jor Kadeen in a booster, so was cool to see this thread. Thanks for the great explanation.
The new red card stranglehold should be a good addition I think, makes up for one of r/w's biggest weakness.
Btw, are we going to get to see the next edition of Jor Kadeen soon or are you guys as fired up with the new commander spoilers as I am?
This deck will not be running Stranglehold. It does nothing for the list; it's too reactive of a card.
I do have a big update on the list, I just haven't posted it yet. I'll get around to that sometime soon. This deck is pretty good, but I personally don't like it because it's very one-dimensional. Those of you who are looking for something aggro and something efficient, Jor Kadeen is for you.
Yeah I guess it does not fit the style, this deck wants to come out of the gate guns blazing in contrast to trying to deny certain strategies. (Although Armageddon effects deny most strategies ) New cards got me a little carried away there.
R/W from my experience can be pretty hard to make a competetive deck and if one succeeds which I think you have its probably not gonna be all that "interesting".
R/W can be more interesting, but at the cost of winning consistently. I find it hard to create situations for awesome or incredible plays - most of the cards just involve blowing stuff up or cute combat tricks. If you're looking for some interesting and powerful stuff, you're going to have to jump into blue sadly.
You could try Rise of the Hobgoblins over White Sun's Zenith. You only get 1/1s, but it's a lot easier on the colored requirements.
I'm actually cutting WSZ because it's too late in the game where it becomes relevant. At least DoJ cycles and is easy to cast for a large number. Also, both of these cards are instant, allowing you to 'surprise' eot token dump and then untap, play Jor, and swing at their face for a ton. The same luxury is not allowed with Rise of the Hobgoblins. I think I've probably gone through every major 'obvious' possibility for this deck, and what looks good on paper really isn't here.
I will post my new list soon, but these new generals are a pretty big distraction. Luckily none of them fit my bill perfectly, so I won't be abandoning anything just yet.
Nice deck! Could we get a look at your latest changes? I've been playing Boros in standard and have been looking to put together a Jor Kadeem deck for EDH.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Soltari Guerrillas yet. They seem to be pretty effective at sniping annoying utility creatures. Also, they can kill even bigger creatures if J.K. is on the battlefield with Metalcraft.
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Nice deck! Could we get a look at your latest changes? I've been playing Boros in standard and have been looking to put together a Jor Kadeem deck for EDH.
Hey sorry for the delay. I haven't played this deck for a while because I've been preoccupied working on two other decks. In fact, I can't even clearly remember my changelog, but after playing several games with the deck, I came across some big realizations.
1) Jor Kadeen can kill by himself. I really, really wanted to include cards like Trailblazer's Boots and Neurok Hoversail, but I could not justify the slots.
2) Manakin are the key to success. As I've stated before, the provide everything you need: mana acceleration, metalcraft, a body to attack with Jor Kadeen, and the ability to produce mana after a geddon. I couldn't ask for anything more.
3) Disruption is the heart of the deck. For those of you who wish to truly develop this list further, I will say that heavy Stax is the way to go.
I've also started thinking that Exoskeleton isn't what a Jor Kadeen deck really wants, but at the same time I think that Jitte is equally slow. I feel like almost all the equipment in the deck isn't proactive enough. Greaves / Battle-Axe are great free haste enablers. Darksteel Plate is fantastic to survive wraths and SoLaS is a perfect recovery tool. The rest of the stuff is only meh, and I don't often find myself wanting to search for it. In it's place more proactive cards (like reveillark) or some other things like Tanglewire and Uba Mask which would keep the metalcraft count up while enabling the stax side of the deck to work.
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Hey buddy, long time. Thanks for stopping by. Great suggestions - I was actually talking to tempo (guy below your post) about cutting some cards like Scroll Rack because of their relatively low impact on the game. What am I going to be using it for? Scrounging around the top two cards of my deck? Yea, talk about inefficient.
I had similar feelings for just about everything you've mentioned, so I appreciate you coming in here with a heavy hand. Don't really have much to argue, but I would like to ask your opinion on adding a few more Stax cards, such as Smokestack, Uba Mask, and Goblin Welder. They all might be slightly "off" for this deck, but I think have some merit.
I actually like Benevolent Bodyguard for the fact that you CAN swing with him. Remember this is multiplayer and there's going to be someone without a blocker. Devoted Caretaker pretty much always has to be untapped, meaning I can't go on the offensive with her unless I'm absolutely sure my opponents are unable to cast anything.
Great suggestions.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Level 1 Judge
I would not run it over Mother of Runes. I think the key is that neither of them require me to sit around with untapped mana in fear of losing Jor Kadeen, cause that' just inefficient.
About creatures being "meh", that's sorta how the entire deck goes. They're all relevant abilities, but they're on fairly weak creatures. It might make more sense though to read Bodyguard as a 4/1 instead of a 1/1, cause that's how big he'll most likely be in most scenarios. Even the smallest guys can be turned into sizable threats, and also the same reason why I've decided to fill the deck with utility creatures instead of just big, dumb double strikers. The one-shot effect he provides will end up saving you seven mana when you re-cast Jor Kadeen. And for the record, I still like Caretaker, but I can understand that she's a bit cumbersome to keep around.
Oh yea edit here. I'm also not sure what you mean about having the post and you having the deck. If you mean the fact that I have not built this deck yet IRL, I will defend my position by saying I have played Boros in the past, for one, and that I still consistently play LD-style decks. I know how the politics work, although I have never tried a creature-heavy strategy with it.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Level 1 Judge
lol don't be like that. We're all here to learn. Question everything, cause if you don't, I'll be lulled into a mediocre sense of satisfaction with the cards in the list. It's great when people question the deck, because it allows us to reexamine the whole thing. Chongsen's post was pretty frank, but it allowed me to recollect my thoughts all over again.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
The thing about Bodyguard vs. Caretaker is that both of them have the same role: protect against spot removal. The Bodyguard does that just by being in play (no one is going to walk a spell into it unless they have a follow-up) and it also protects against random creature combat and things like that. All without costing you any mana, plus it's free to swing while doing it. It's not the best creature, but with JK's +3/+0 he's not completely irrelevant on the board. He's obviously no Mother of Runes, but a second creature to fulfill that role can't hurt.
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While you haven't built the deck yet, try a bunch of starter hands. See how many lands you get in your starting hand. Yes, this is a lando deck, but consistently making your first 3-4 land drops is huge. I started with a low land count and a lot of mana rocks but found the sweet spot for me was about 15 rocks and 35 land.
I know you took out Sunforger, but you may want to reconsider. You stated that the combo is too cute and I can see your point. But, remember: the cards you can pull with Sunforger are not dead cards by themselves. Condemn, Sword to Plowshares, Wild Ricochet, Tithe etc are still great cards -especially in multiplayer (for me they have proven their worth several times over). Sunforger just allows you to tutor them as answers when needed. But this may be something we agree to disagree.
Some more Lando cards for your consideration:
Boil - Instant speed blue hate. Meta choice really (and I really hate blue. Also tutorable with the forger)
Wake of Destruction - Direct hate at a particular color. A tad expensive but great for sniping in multiplayer.
Also: Stick with the white recursion. Sun Titan, Karmic Guide, Rev, etc have all proven to pull their weight. Last game I was able to use Sun Titan as a psuedo Cruicible of Worlds fetching and refetching Strip Mine. Of course, that card depends on the ban list your using, but you get the point.
Savage Beating
Scroll Rack
To me Savage Beating looks like it could wiff often and doesn't look very good as a top deck if your desperately searching for a geddon effect or something to help you stall until then. If you resolve a geddon though... the difference in 1 attack phase to finish someone and 2 is very minor and i think consistancy would be better suited than the random swift victory this could offer.
Scroll Rack you've already nailed down pretty well, your just dicking around with the top two cards of your library or whatever and the overall effect seems negligable. Saddly i think Crystal Ball would perform better than scroll rack in this deck.
Having said that those are the two cards I would suggest cutting for whatever. I hear the arguments made against cards like devouted caretaker. However the counter point is that she serves as mother of runes 2.0 and i don't see or hear any arguments for removing her so to me I think its a bad reason to consider removing critters that tap to make effects happen. They are giving the pilot options... "something I should worry about I use the creatures defensively or the geddon resolved they can't do anything im worried about anyway i use the creatures offensively" At least this was my impression. If its seriously an issue why not attempt to include an Angel's Trumpet? Its the only reasonable artifact vigilance giver and if your general is on the board (and looking pretty smug behind the protection of mother/devouted) your opponents arn't going to want to attack into a group of 4/x's that have the ability to gain protection, or jor kadeen himself with his first strike. But the flip side is they may very well throw enough blockers in the way so don't consider this a real suggestion... more like a thought.
3 things however i'm still feeling like your deck is lacking though it has improved... card advantage, recursion and critter count. Card draw isn't something you are going to find alot of optimum answers for in R/ but that doesn't mean you can't try for some.
Wheel of Fortune - if you don't have a budget. If you are ahead with mana sources then this card can perform well. Your opposition MAY draw into recovery lands/artifacts faster than you want BUT if they are behind the curve this can be offset greatly by giving you alot more gas to go with... not to mention another geddon effect
Chandra Ablaze - Planeswalkers are already pretty busted when all lands wiped clean (i know i love having them around post Death Cloud), but consider that her tiny wheel of fortune could simply be just gas for you and cycling the hand of your opponents. 4RR may be a little steep but thats the cost of two wheel of fortunes anyway which is the minimum you can get out of her. The alternate use (though i don't expect this to be used if ever except in small corner cases) is to allow you to turn around and rip the lands apart again essentially keeping a table pinned down. That could just be win-more though but i think its worth consideration.
Ranger of Eos - This guy is just a body that says draw two cards to your hand. Sure you may be fairly limited in what does or doesn't get put into your hand but he's a form of card advantage.
Goblin Welder - Even outside of a Ranger of Eos package this guy seems pretty relavant towards your deck. There are alot of small interactions that can have a huge impact on your game. Personally i think he's a little more valuable than mother of runes but to each his own. Ignoring the fact that he can work as psuedo removal for an opponents artifacts lets take a look at some relavant stuff he can do for you.
- About to geddon? Why not turn your ancient den into that guilded lotus that was popped earlier.
- A must answer Blightsteel Colossus just hit the table? How about we turn this Marble Diamond into Duplicant.
- One mana away from hard cycling that decree of annihilation? Screw it lets turn this Whispersilk cloak into Great Furnace
- How can I go about casting and swinging for lethal on this turn? Hell yea, tap this Boros Signet for mana, then exchange it for Obsidian Battle-axe, then cast my general.
You already know my feelings on
Sun Titan
Karmic Guide
Reviellark
Sword of Light and Shadow
Here are another two that I think (for creatures) that could use some minor consideration.
Dust Elemental - I personally loved this guy with EtB abilities, he's a cheap super evasive beater who can double as a bit of wrath protection. Might not be the most obvious use but the next time someone goes to wrath away your board position, flash in the dust elemental pull back your 3 favorite creatures... you just earned yourself +2 Card advantage and probably annoyed your opponent.
Stonecloaker - Not exactly the same level as dust elemental but he does some fairly nice work on a smaller scale. Saves a dude from targeted removal (without disrupting your creature progression) allows the reuse of an EtB ability AND as a minor added bonus removes a card from an opponents gy.
Keep up the good work
Would you be able to explain why Puresteel Paladin and Stonehewer Giant are in the list, because you are only running 8 equipments which makes puresteel paladin a bit weak?
I think it might be too high on your curve but batterskull could actually be alright here. Very strong with stoneforger mystic at the very least. I am not sure if it is too "cute" though. Its an efficient beater by itself and can be returned to your hand once dead to beat some more.
Sorry if my suggestions aren't super helpful.
BBBMBC Shirei StyleBBB
URUNiv-Mizzet, Warp WorldURU
BGRKresh the BloodbraidedBGR
Never dropped the paladin (having never dew him in the 5ish games I've had it in the deck) BUT I'd think that Leonin Shikari would be better in any case since I always find myself wanting speedy equipment not free ones. Though on the other hand I do ALWAYS find myself wanting more cards so they're almost even for the amount of effect they'd have. TOSS UP lol
Wheel of Fortune...yeah...
Chandra Ablaze, hmmm I kinda want to try this now too
Ranger = DO IT I second, third, fourth, and oh hell, ALL of the recommend this guy.
I want to try running angel's trumpet now and see how badly it gets me killed in my Jor deck. Sounds like a fun way to get rid of blockers.
Level 1 Judge
Now that I've splurged all over the good stuff, let me go over what wasn't so hot. I was actually rather unimpressed by the offensive equipment in the deck. Granted, I only really run Obsidian Battle-Axe and Sword of Fire and Ice, I always felt like they were too clunky unless my curve played out perfectly. I thought that I would've needed cards like Mask of Memory to make sure I keep my cards flowing, but most of the time I just didn't care. I'd rather have more density in creatures, acceleration, or disruption. I think I'm going to boot some equipment in favor of those three categories, or at least run more protection equipment over offensive equipment. Jor Kadeen, by himself, can kill a player outright when equipped with a Whispersilk Cloak. This also means I'm going to ditch a few cards, like Stonehewer Giant and Steelshaper's Gift. I just never felt like I wanted or even needed them.
Ok so maybe I was wrong - the deck could use a few removal spells. Not a ton, but just enough so that you can get rid of problematic creatures. Not really impressed by Parallax Wave today - it was slow, I never wanted to use it defensively, but most of all, the effect was too temporary. I'd rather have just run Swords to Plowshares. I'm going to have to look more into this. Some other cards I'm not 100% sure of include:
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
White Sun's Zenith
Voltaic Key
Mishra's Workshop
The first two are mainly because the deck has a hard time generating tons of colored mana, let alone keeping them all open. I'd probably ditch 8.5 Tails for Devoted Caretaker. I'm also going to add in Leonin Arbiter. I cut Puresteel Paladin, and will probably favor trying Grafted Wargear and Ronin Warclub.
I'll post a more cohesive list of changes soon (it's like 630 AM and I haven't slept yet). But it was fun. Not exactly my playstyle, but it was interesting and enjoyable. Also, stop talking about Wheel of Fortune. The last thing I want to do is help refill my opponents hands or allow them to filter into their answers. This deck doesn't need gas - it's extremely good at what it does, so it needs consistency and density instead.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
That's my understanding of the use of this card.
Level 1 Judge
WUBRGPauper Battle BoxWUBRG ... and why I am not a fan of Wayne Reynolds' Illustrations.
Level 1 Judge
Also your build seems heavy on artifact destruction, but not so much on enchantment removal, is that dictated by your specific meta or something I am missing?
Also Dispatch along with Swords to Plowshares?
Since the curve is low, the first few turns are generally spent dumping your hand of artifacts and creatures. Jor will usually hit play turn 3 or 4 (although oftentimes turn 2), and you can begin your offense. Generally you want to keep a hand with an accelerant, a red and white source, and some form of land disruption. It's cool if you don't have the LD, but it's imperative that you have acceleration so you can cast Jor early and recuperate if he is removed. I must say that the majority of the decks in my meta are not prepared for a turn 3 Jor and turn 4 geddon, where I then begin to kill players in two attack phases, one at a time.
The build is heavy on artifact destruction for a reason. The only thing keeping players in the game after a geddon are stray artifacts like Coalition Relic. I haven't run into too many problematic enchantments, but adjust your deck accordingly.
Dispatch is good, and I have added it in my latest build (which I have not posted yet - will do that soon).
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
WUBRG Some of these decks can actually win games...WUBRG
How I know I should build a deck:
This deck will not be running Stranglehold. It does nothing for the list; it's too reactive of a card.
I do have a big update on the list, I just haven't posted it yet. I'll get around to that sometime soon. This deck is pretty good, but I personally don't like it because it's very one-dimensional. Those of you who are looking for something aggro and something efficient, Jor Kadeen is for you.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
R/W can be more interesting, but at the cost of winning consistently. I find it hard to create situations for awesome or incredible plays - most of the cards just involve blowing stuff up or cute combat tricks. If you're looking for some interesting and powerful stuff, you're going to have to jump into blue sadly.
I'm actually cutting WSZ because it's too late in the game where it becomes relevant. At least DoJ cycles and is easy to cast for a large number. Also, both of these cards are instant, allowing you to 'surprise' eot token dump and then untap, play Jor, and swing at their face for a ton. The same luxury is not allowed with Rise of the Hobgoblins. I think I've probably gone through every major 'obvious' possibility for this deck, and what looks good on paper really isn't here.
I will post my new list soon, but these new generals are a pretty big distraction. Luckily none of them fit my bill perfectly, so I won't be abandoning anything just yet.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Hey sorry for the delay. I haven't played this deck for a while because I've been preoccupied working on two other decks. In fact, I can't even clearly remember my changelog, but after playing several games with the deck, I came across some big realizations.
1) Jor Kadeen can kill by himself. I really, really wanted to include cards like Trailblazer's Boots and Neurok Hoversail, but I could not justify the slots.
2) Manakin are the key to success. As I've stated before, the provide everything you need: mana acceleration, metalcraft, a body to attack with Jor Kadeen, and the ability to produce mana after a geddon. I couldn't ask for anything more.
3) Disruption is the heart of the deck. For those of you who wish to truly develop this list further, I will say that heavy Stax is the way to go.
1 Skullclamp
1 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Darksteel Plate
1 Whispersilk Cloak
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Obsidian Battle-Axe
Creatures (24)
1 Mother of Runes
1 Devoted Caretaker
1 Planar Guide
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Manic Vandal
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Oxidda Scrapmelter
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Leonin Abunas
1 Loxodon Gatekeeper
1 Indomitable Archangel
1 Keldon Firebombers
1 Urabrask the Hidden
1 Reveillark
1 Duplicant
1 Sun Titan
1 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Boom/Bust
1 Catastrophe
1 Decree of Annihilation
1 Blood Moon
1 Winter Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Smokestack
Utility Spells (2)
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Enlightened Tutor
Acceleration (22)
1 Iron Myr
1 Gold Myr
1 Alloy Myr
1 Scuttlemutt
1 Palladium Myr
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Opal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
1 Boros Signet
1 Sphere of the Suns
1 Fire Diamond
1 Marble Diamond
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Mind Stone
1 Guardian Idol
1 Thunder Totem
1 Coalition Relic
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Great Furnace
1 Ancient Den
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Mishra’s Factory
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Kher Keep
1 Glimmervoid
1 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Rugged Praerie
1 Ancient Amphitheater
1 Boros Garrison
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
10 Plains
9 Mountains
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain