I'm probably not going to spend the time to make this deck, but it's a pretty decent concept if anyone wants to run with it.
I was thinking "melira, sylvok outcast is just a totally worthless general, isn't she? I mean, unless someone's playing poison, she's useless." but then I realized that her -1/-1 ability is absolutely nuts with persist. So here's the deck idea: lots and lots of sac outlets with woodfall primus, and any available tutors for woodfall primus.
Aboroth is completely unplayable with Melira for the same reason Devoted Druid is, since you can't pay the cost (putting -1/-1 on them) you can't get the benefit of paying the cost (paying the upkeep/getting mana). In the case of Aboroth, that means you have to sacrifice it since you didn't pay the cost.
But Persist should be nuts with her.
Oh yeah, blurg. Kinda forgot about that. At least the other two are pretty cool, though.
meh, not really. The deck wants to be fast as fast is fast. one cipt land could slow you down an entire turn. And with the general, oran-rief is just unecessary.
It's sort of a "riding the rails" combo deck, I don't have a lot of backups. Just blow everything except creatures, hopefully wipe out flyers with aerie ouphes, and sac your beaters to untap them for pseudo-vigilance so you always have blockers. If you pull it off fast enough, you win, if not, you lose.
Sort of a boring strategy, but I couldn't think of any other great ways to break her.
Two things tho, first I agree with other people that Cauldron of Souls deserves a slot here, many of your sac outlets are beneficial in and of themselves so it works.
With cauldron of souls in there's probably a few other artifact or green creatures with ETB or sac abilities which could be very useful. Havn't looked any up yet tho personally.
But like, even bottle gnomes is decent if you can just be gaining 3 every turn due to cauldron.
Two things tho, first I agree with other people that Cauldron of Souls deserves a slot here, many of your sac outlets are beneficial in and of themselves so it works.
With cauldron of souls in there's probably a few other artifact or green creatures with ETB or sac abilities which could be very useful. Havn't looked any up yet tho personally.
Also, I think bottle gnomes work slightly better than Cathodion here (especially with cauldron of souls to gain 3 life every turn, and 6 life when necessary)... Although then again I guess with your sac outlets cathodion is quite nice... Tough call really.
Cathodion is in the deck solely as mana accelerant. The deck's only goal is to hit enough mana to cast primus. So ideally you cast cathodion turn 2, and sac it turn 3 for 3 mana and dump woodfall primus. I only need that mana boost once, after that I don't really ever need mana again. So bottle gnomes doesn't make any sense, life is unimportant, it's all about fast acceleration.
cauldron's effect won't allow for infinite triggers of anything since the persist effect is lost when the creature changes zones. So it does provide some protection for melira, but I'm not even running lightning greaves.
If you wanted to make a less combo-centric deck, you could get good mileage out of cauldron by making your creatures capable of being killed/targeted once a turn without any downside. unnecessary for this deck, though. I don't really care enough about melira to spend the time to make a balanced decklist - naked combo decks are the easiest to make, and they pushed my post from the general EDH discussion into the multiplayer decklists, so I made it as quickly and simply as possible.
I am not convinced it would work with "persist" either...
return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it
Seems like this is a cost, and if you cannot put the -1/-1 counter, the effect of bringing it back would fizzle.
... or it is occurring before the creature is "in play"
If you stifle "persist" then the card fails to come into play entirely, as the -1/-1 and "return it to the battlefield" are mutually inclusive as the ability "persist", thus if you stop one part of it (the -1/-1), you stop all of it.
...besides we really do not need another infinite combo in EDH.
I think the persist combo doesn't work like you say it does, Woodfall Primus enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter, before Melira has anything to say about it. Same diffrence of Fertilid, which enters the battlefield with counters, compared to Oran-Rief Survivalist, which has an EBT ability that gives it counters.
I am not convinced it would work with "persist" either...
return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it
Seems like this is a cost, and if you cannot put the -1/-1 counter, the effect of bringing it back would fizzle.
... or it is occurring before the creature is "in play"
If you stifle "persist" then the card fails to come into play entirely, as the -1/-1 and "return it to the battlefield" are mutually inclusive as the ability "persist", thus if you stop one part of it (the -1/-1), you stop all of it.
...besides we really do not need another infinite combo in EDH.
Costs are anything before a colon. Persist is not a cost. It's a triggered ability. If one part of it does not work, it will try to do as much of it as possible. In other words, it will come back into play but it won't put a -1/-1 counter on it.
The combo works just fine. In fact, it's pretty well known by now.
the combo works wonders, Melira inf combo decks are pretty fun in modern with finks and redcap -
this deck has some awesome potential i think with its MVP being primus
I know the combo would be nice, if the card says "when the creature is returned to play, put a -1/-1 counter on it." However, it does not. It instead says put it into play with it already on it. The creature you are attempting to abuse here, says that creatures you control (only those already in play) cannot have such counters put on them, but, does not specify the state of which it coming into play or already having them on them.
I think the persist combo doesn't work like you say it does, Woodfall Primus enters the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter, before Melira has anything to say about it. Same diffrence of Fertilid, which enters the battlefield with counters, compared to Oran-Rief Survivalist, which has an EBT ability that gives it counters.
I completely agree with your observation... People fail to read their cards and understand the definition of come into play, and creatures that the owner controls.
Costs are anything before a colon. Persist is not a cost. It's a triggered ability. If one part of it does not work, it will try to do as much of it as possible. In other words, it will come back into play but it won't put a -1/-1 counter on it.
The combo works just fine. In fact, it's pretty well known by now.
There is nothing preventing the come into play effect... It comes into play in a specified state, that being with -1/-1 counter on it. It is not a cost, it is a state in which it may return. Nothing mentioned prevented the counter from being on it, or having it. The argument here only states that counters cannot be put on creature's the owner controls. A creature is not under the owner's control until it comes into play. The counter is already on the creature before that happens... It is a status effect.
I was thinking "melira, sylvok outcast is just a totally worthless general, isn't she? I mean, unless someone's playing poison, she's useless." but then I realized that her -1/-1 ability is absolutely nuts with persist. So here's the deck idea: lots and lots of sac outlets with woodfall primus, and any available tutors for woodfall primus.
Also, phyrexian hydra, witherscale wurm, and aboroth just got playable.
pretty sure devoted druid doesn't work, but if it does, hey, infinite mana!
EDIT: fine, fine, here's the stupid decklist.
1 Melira, Sylvok outcast
Combo (2)
1 Aerie Ouphes
1 Woodfall Primus
Sac Outlets (9)
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Ashnod's Altar
1 Blasting Station
1 Claws of Gix
1 Greater Good
1 Perilous Forays
1 Phyrexian Altar
1 Spawning Pit
1 Starved Rusalka
Tutor (17)
1 Cathodion
1 Chord of Calling
1 Citanul Flute
1 Defense of the Heart
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fierce Empath
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Grim Monolith
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Natural Order
1 Palladium Myr
1 Pattern of Rebirth
1 Planar Portal
1 Primal Command
1 Skyship Weatherlight
1 Su-Chi
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Tutor
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Time of Need
1 Weird Harvest
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Panglacial Wurm
Accel (34)
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Boreal Druid
1 Citanul Heirophants
1 Coalition Relic
1 Devoted Druid
1 Eladamri's Vineyard
1 Elvish Archdruid
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Fyndhorn Elder
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Gaea's Touch
1 Greenweaver Druid
1 Horn of Ramos
1 Jeweled Amulet
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Llanowar Mentor
1 Magus of the Vineyard
1 Mana Crypt
1 Nantuko Elder
1 Overgrowth
1 Paradise Mantle
1 Priest of Titania
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Sachi, daughter of Seshiro
1 Shizuko, Caller of Autumn
1 Sisay's Ring
1 Sol Ring
1 Springleaf Drum
1 Ur-Golem's Eye
1 Vernal Bloom
1 Wild Growth
1 Worn Powerstone
35 Forest
1 Yavimaya Hollow
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
EDIT: Hey, looks like you have to make the deck now
Mighty Emergence - Backup general for the combo
Spike Weaver - Good creature for defense and backup if need be
Asceticism - Protects combo pieces
Dense Foliage - Ditto
Dosan the Falling Leaf & City of Solitude - Counterspell protection
erg, what the hell, mtgs? I was just opening it up as a discussion, I don't really care that much about the deck to actually make it. Oh well.
yeah, cauldron would be solid.
Oh yeah, blurg. Kinda forgot about that. At least the other two are pretty cool, though.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
EDH:▼
(links to 3D generals)
Playing: Designing:
Retired:
It might become an amazing combo in standard though.
It might become an amazing combo in standard though.
It might become an amazing combo in standard though.
Phyrexian Unlife anyone?
It might become an amazing combo in standard though.
her plus kitchen finks plus sac outlet = infy life
i might make this deck, of course it would have to have a diff general and be jund or naya or 4 color
Or you could have a playgroup who is casual enough to let you get away with hybrids. I really want to do this now.
Generals meant to be drafted first in a single pack of 6 cards.
And here is the actual cube, meant to be drafted in 4 regular sized packs. (60 card decks)
meh, not really. The deck wants to be fast as fast is fast. one cipt land could slow you down an entire turn. And with the general, oran-rief is just unecessary.
It's sort of a "riding the rails" combo deck, I don't have a lot of backups. Just blow everything except creatures, hopefully wipe out flyers with aerie ouphes, and sac your beaters to untap them for pseudo-vigilance so you always have blockers. If you pull it off fast enough, you win, if not, you lose.
Sort of a boring strategy, but I couldn't think of any other great ways to break her.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Two things tho, first I agree with other people that Cauldron of Souls deserves a slot here, many of your sac outlets are beneficial in and of themselves so it works.
With cauldron of souls in there's probably a few other artifact or green creatures with ETB or sac abilities which could be very useful. Havn't looked any up yet tho personally.
But like, even bottle gnomes is decent if you can just be gaining 3 every turn due to cauldron.
Cathodion is in the deck solely as mana accelerant. The deck's only goal is to hit enough mana to cast primus. So ideally you cast cathodion turn 2, and sac it turn 3 for 3 mana and dump woodfall primus. I only need that mana boost once, after that I don't really ever need mana again. So bottle gnomes doesn't make any sense, life is unimportant, it's all about fast acceleration.
cauldron's effect won't allow for infinite triggers of anything since the persist effect is lost when the creature changes zones. So it does provide some protection for melira, but I'm not even running lightning greaves.
If you wanted to make a less combo-centric deck, you could get good mileage out of cauldron by making your creatures capable of being killed/targeted once a turn without any downside. unnecessary for this deck, though. I don't really care enough about melira to spend the time to make a balanced decklist - naked combo decks are the easiest to make, and they pushed my post from the general EDH discussion into the multiplayer decklists, so I made it as quickly and simply as possible.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a -1/-1 counter on it
Seems like this is a cost, and if you cannot put the -1/-1 counter, the effect of bringing it back would fizzle.
... or it is occurring before the creature is "in play"
If you stifle "persist" then the card fails to come into play entirely, as the -1/-1 and "return it to the battlefield" are mutually inclusive as the ability "persist", thus if you stop one part of it (the -1/-1), you stop all of it.
...besides we really do not need another infinite combo in EDH.
Azusa - Derevi - Glissa - Mizzix - Sharuum - Wanderer - Wort
The combo works just fine. In fact, it's pretty well known by now.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
this deck has some awesome potential i think with its MVP being primus
Currently Playing
UTron
Tahngarth, Talruum Hero
TRADE ME!!!
I completely agree with your observation... People fail to read their cards and understand the definition of come into play, and creatures that the owner controls.
There is nothing preventing the come into play effect... It comes into play in a specified state, that being with -1/-1 counter on it. It is not a cost, it is a state in which it may return. Nothing mentioned prevented the counter from being on it, or having it. The argument here only states that counters cannot be put on creature's the owner controls. A creature is not under the owner's control until it comes into play. The counter is already on the creature before that happens... It is a status effect.