Just a quick recap of the multiplayer event from yesterday with my CoA build. It was pretty ugly.
1st table I am playing against Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Ertai, the Corrupted, and Wort, the Raidmother. I develop my mana for a few turns, and no one else really does much of note, playing a couple of creatures here and there, with the most relevant being Ertai getting both Bloodghast and Reassembling Skeleton, which could potentially be an issue with his General. I end up with 7 mana and drop Child, which resolves, and just kind of sit and play the waiting game, dishing out some attacks until I feel the board needs wiped, dumping Child into the bin via Worthy Cause. I more or less never run out of reanimation or sac outlets, wiping the board at my leisure until I kill each player with Lord of Extinction in combat.
2nd table was Savra again, Oros, the Avenger, and Akroma, Angel of Fury. Again, I do some mana development, and more creatures get played, with me using Eternal Witness to get back some mana ramp to keep hitting my drops and wiping the board once with Child. I eventually get up to Tooth and Nail mana, and go for the situational duo of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Sower of Temptation. Savra casts Necrogenesis, which would be very annoying if I didn't have Krosan Grip, so that is taken care of quickly. I copy Witness with Kiki, getting back Tooth, and cast it again the following turn, searching up Body Double and Reveillark; I again copy Witness to return Tooth for my next turn, and for the third casting I get Karmic Guide and Duplicant. I also lay down Lord of Extinction and start swinging. All of this action is not taken lightly by the others, but they just don't draw the right answers. The Oros player attempts to mitigate things by playing his freshly drawn Desolation Angel (with kicker), but the writing is on the wall, as my board presence is just too much to overcome, and I again win via Lord of Extinction killing everyone.
So, yeah. I built my deck with a heavy multiplayer bent for obvious reasons, and it just seemed no one was really prepared for the type of deck I brought aside from Savra, which, coincidentally, was also my deck (as in my build AND my physical cards). I'm looking forward to a more developed "metagame" in future multiplayer events, and we are also tweaking our point system, so hopefully I'll have a more interesting recap next time.
I probably arrived to the party late, but I thought I'd throw my 2c out there.
I mostly just wanted to point out some weaknesses. (Not trying to be "that guy", just trying to help with the deck in any way I can since I've never played with/against Child)
You stated in your OP that you don't run creatures/mana rocks that produce mana because Child blows them up. (Which is fine) But how do you deal with LD then, mass LD in particular? (Or Sundering Titan...) There's a few other cards that could really mess up your day such as Winter Orb, Blood Moon, Hall of Gemstone..etc. Now all of these are permanents so Child can get rid of them, but it becomes extremely tedious trying to cast a 5C general under such duress. Also, you flat out scoop to Ritual of Subdual, Contamination and Infernal Darkness since without artifacts or creatures you are unable to generate the required mana for a disenchant effect. I don't know about your playgroup, but seeing at least one of these effects is very common here, sometimes you'll see all of them.
Now, on to the actual suggestions!
The first card I would include is Darksteel Ingot, since it produces any colored mana and is indestructible so it lives through Child. Even though it's only a single card, it at least gives you an out against anything really, as long as you have the removal in hand.
Steel Hellkite is decent as it provides a colorless answer to the above enchantments. Actually I like Spine of Ish Sah better as it doesn't require an attack, you don't have to wait a turn, and it's a lot more precise. It's especially good if you decide to run Greater Gargadon.
It might seem redundant, but All Is Dust is still good here. It's different than Child in that it's colorless (so can be cast pretty much anytime you have 7 mana), plus it forces a sacrifice which is important for things that's can't be destroyed with Child, or have Regeneration.
I'll go ahead and recommend Global Ruin for pretty much any 5C deck. It's such a beating again 1-2 color decks and helps you get into the game if you fall behind. I'd recommend Collective Restraint as well, but it doesn't have much synergy with your general.
Life From the Loam might be a better option than Crucible of Worlds. It doesn't die to Child, plus it dredges so you can use it over and over. Dredge is particularly good because you can cast an instant speed draw spell in response to graveyard hate. Intuition puts it over the top as well.
Lastly, I'd play a few utility counterspells as sort of "catch all" answers. Forbid is good as it allows you to discard cards for a good effect. There's a ton of good ones I won't list them all.
Good luck. =)
You are right about the weakness of this deck. There are some cards (like the one you mention, and Humility) that really give Child a very hard time. In my defense, the list have some cards that solve this kind of problems in certin situations, and tutors to look for them. However they are not optimal all the time.
It's funny that you mention this deck being weak agaist LD because that was the biggest problem in the begginings...My group love to hate the Lands...so I addded cards to combat this:
Life from the loam
Crucible of Worlds (even though it's a permanent) Tilling treefolk
Spine is interesting as Ulamog could be too. The only thing about Ulamog is that it doesnt take care of Humility. Spine does a good job at this, and it goes back to my hand if it gets blown up by Child. So it would be a permanent that i dont care much.
Im also thinking to add few more spot removal answer and few more tutors:
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre does in fact kill the crap out of Humility. I think Genesis would be a great add and a way to recur Child fairly cheaply if he's been killed a couple times.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre does in fact kill the crap out of Humility. I think Genesis would be a great add and a way to recur Child fairly cheaply if he's been killed a couple times.
Very good point my dear enemy. The only thing i dont like about Ula is its way to shuffle my whole graveyard. It could be very counterproductive.:-/
About Genesis, It doesnt seem that It has good synergy with Mr. Ula, but It's looks like a great card for this deck overall.
So, how about Spine? It gets around color or creature hosers, reusable, and not afraid of Child mass destruction effects...Or would be another spot removal like Mortify better?
Spine is a good way to get rd of problematic things like Blood/Magus of the Moon and the like, but costing 7, even with ramp, is pretty harsh sometimes. I think it's worth considering, especially since you can always blow up Child with it if necessary.
Spine is a good way to get rd of problematic things like Blood/Magus of the Moon and the like, but costing 7, even with ramp, is pretty harsh sometimes. I think it's worth considering, especially since you can always blow up Child with it if necessary.
Thats exactly my point. My doubt is if the Spine is better that just running a generic spot removal
I don't know how competetive your meta is, but Spine has huge synergy with both Child and Greater Gargadon. Plus it's colorless so it's an answer to things like Ritual of Subdual where an otherwise cheaper, one-shot colored card would fail.
Private Mod Note
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My apologies, children, for I am afraid I cannot save you all.
I don't know how competetive your meta is, but Spine has huge synergy with both Child and Greater Gargadon. Plus it's colorless so it's an answer to things like Ritual of Subdual where an otherwise cheaper, one-shot colored card would fail.
I'd say the odds of running into an Infernal Darkness type card in this group in any given game is maybe 20%. Mass land destruction is much more common and a nice thing about Infernal Darkness is that it is usually a huge problem for everyone but the caster so it generally doesn't stick around long as most of the other decks are running mana rocks to get around it enough to remove it. I think the cost of Spine doesn't outweigh the utility of the card and if I were going to run a colorless Infernal Darkness answer it would be All is Dust because it also dodges Karmic Justice which sees a good amount of play.
Yeah, i kinda like All is Dust more than the Spine, however the fact that I can reuse the Spine to get out of tough spots is a BIG plus...And yeah, that Karmic Justice is a b...tch.
Another card that im cosidering is Yawgmoth's Will This deck can generate TONS of mana and late game It seems like a gamebreaker...kinda like Praetor's Consul
I also finally added Mystical Teachings to the deck. This opened so many other options to add on. My first MT tool is Cauldron Haze.
Im planing to add more instants for Teachings like Mortify or Chord of Calling besides the ones the deck already have. Another tech Mystical Teachings allow me to add to the deck are creatures with flash, like:
There are three card looking for a spot in the deck: Ulamog (Not sure about the forced shuffling effect) Praetor's Council (Depends on how Nostalgic Dreams performs)
I like all those adds but I feel like Regrowth is the least necessary if you only end up adding 3 cards. Cuts are rough though and it was tough to find even 4 cards I don't like. Brutalizer Exarch is my least favorite card on your list. Just feels overcosted for the effect and you have access to more efficient tutors and disruption. After that I'd cut some of the following:
Duplicant - In a 5 color deck you should be able to answer creatures more efficiently. 6 mana removal that only hits creatures is really expensive even if it comes with a body.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalkers - I've seen him do some pretty powerful things but I really wonder if he's necessary. He's very expensive, doesn't do anything a 5 color deck couldn't already do and he's not on theme at. Plus he's a permanent and aren't you anti-permanent in this deck?
Primal Command - I'd rather have Eladamri's Call. Cheaper, instant and the main reason to run Primal Command is to fetch creatures.
I like all those adds but I feel like Regrowth is the least necessary if you only end up adding 3 cards. Cuts are rough though and it was tough to find even 4 cards I don't like. Brutalizer Exarch is my least favorite card on your list. Just feels overcosted for the effect and you have access to more efficient tutors and disruption. After that I'd cut some of the following:
Duplicant - In a 5 color deck you should be able to answer creatures more efficiently. 6 mana removal that only hits creatures is really expensive even if it comes with a body.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalkers - I've seen him do some pretty powerful things but I really wonder if he's necessary. He's very expensive, doesn't do anything a 5 color deck couldn't already do and he's not on theme at. Plus he's a permanent and aren't you anti-permanent in this deck?
Primal Command - I'd rather have Eladamri's Call. Cheaper, instant and the main reason to run Primal Command is to fetch creatures.
A nice bonus is that all these cards are 5+ mana and the cards you're adding are all 3 or less so this should be a nice reduction in your curve.
All the cards you mentioned are part of the cutting block...plus one more: Fauna Shamman .I know she is fine, but sometimes I don't care about activating her.
Brutalizer Exarch can deal with indestructable of agaist recursion, something I dont have in the rest of the list....besides All is Dust. I haven't got the chance to play him that much, so I'll give him another full weekend.
Duplicant...You know what, I agree with you, however Im cutting another Reveillark target. I dont mind getting rid of Duplicant, but I need to watch the Lark count...This deck can't afford to cut too many creatures.
Putrified and Primal Command are nice, but I guess I can find something more efficient. I like the Putrified since I want to have a spot removal option in a Mass control deck. You know, sometimes you want to get rid of a pesky permanent but it's not worthy blowing up Child.
About Mr. Bolas the explanation is simple...He's my pet card of this deck. I know it has no synergy with the deck, but everytime He came out He did it with greatness...lol...I guess it's time for a little vacation for Mr. Bolas. He deserves it.
1st table I am playing against Savra, Queen of the Golgari, Ertai, the Corrupted, and Wort, the Raidmother. I develop my mana for a few turns, and no one else really does much of note, playing a couple of creatures here and there, with the most relevant being Ertai getting both Bloodghast and Reassembling Skeleton, which could potentially be an issue with his General. I end up with 7 mana and drop Child, which resolves, and just kind of sit and play the waiting game, dishing out some attacks until I feel the board needs wiped, dumping Child into the bin via Worthy Cause. I more or less never run out of reanimation or sac outlets, wiping the board at my leisure until I kill each player with Lord of Extinction in combat.
2nd table was Savra again, Oros, the Avenger, and Akroma, Angel of Fury. Again, I do some mana development, and more creatures get played, with me using Eternal Witness to get back some mana ramp to keep hitting my drops and wiping the board once with Child. I eventually get up to Tooth and Nail mana, and go for the situational duo of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Sower of Temptation. Savra casts Necrogenesis, which would be very annoying if I didn't have Krosan Grip, so that is taken care of quickly. I copy Witness with Kiki, getting back Tooth, and cast it again the following turn, searching up Body Double and Reveillark; I again copy Witness to return Tooth for my next turn, and for the third casting I get Karmic Guide and Duplicant. I also lay down Lord of Extinction and start swinging. All of this action is not taken lightly by the others, but they just don't draw the right answers. The Oros player attempts to mitigate things by playing his freshly drawn Desolation Angel (with kicker), but the writing is on the wall, as my board presence is just too much to overcome, and I again win via Lord of Extinction killing everyone.
So, yeah. I built my deck with a heavy multiplayer bent for obvious reasons, and it just seemed no one was really prepared for the type of deck I brought aside from Savra, which, coincidentally, was also my deck (as in my build AND my physical cards). I'm looking forward to a more developed "metagame" in future multiplayer events, and we are also tweaking our point system, so hopefully I'll have a more interesting recap next time.
You are right about the weakness of this deck. There are some cards (like the one you mention, and Humility) that really give Child a very hard time. In my defense, the list have some cards that solve this kind of problems in certin situations, and tutors to look for them. However they are not optimal all the time.
Im a little confussed that you suggested few cards that i already have in my built: Life from the Loam, Greater Gargadon, or Darksteel Ingot.
It's funny that you mention this deck being weak agaist LD because that was the biggest problem in the begginings...My group love to hate the Lands...so I addded cards to combat this:
Life from the loam
Crucible of Worlds (even though it's a permanent)
Tilling treefolk
Spine is interesting as Ulamog could be too. The only thing about Ulamog is that it doesnt take care of Humility. Spine does a good job at this, and it goes back to my hand if it gets blown up by Child. So it would be a permanent that i dont care much.
Im also thinking to add few more spot removal answer and few more tutors:
Very good point my dear enemy. The only thing i dont like about Ula is its way to shuffle my whole graveyard. It could be very counterproductive.:-/
About Genesis, It doesnt seem that It has good synergy with Mr. Ula, but It's looks like a great card for this deck overall.
So, how about Spine? It gets around color or creature hosers, reusable, and not afraid of Child mass destruction effects...Or would be another spot removal like Mortify better?
Thats exactly my point. My doubt is if the Spine is better that just running a generic spot removal
I'd say the odds of running into an Infernal Darkness type card in this group in any given game is maybe 20%. Mass land destruction is much more common and a nice thing about Infernal Darkness is that it is usually a huge problem for everyone but the caster so it generally doesn't stick around long as most of the other decks are running mana rocks to get around it enough to remove it. I think the cost of Spine doesn't outweigh the utility of the card and if I were going to run a colorless Infernal Darkness answer it would be All is Dust because it also dodges Karmic Justice which sees a good amount of play.
Another card that im cosidering is Yawgmoth's Will This deck can generate TONS of mana and late game It seems like a gamebreaker...kinda like Praetor's Consul
Latest additions to the deck:
In:
Out:
Bench:
In:
Out:
I also finally added Mystical Teachings to the deck. This opened so many other options to add on. My first MT tool is Cauldron Haze.
Im planing to add more instants for Teachings like Mortify or Chord of Calling besides the ones the deck already have. Another tech Mystical Teachings allow me to add to the deck are creatures with flash, like:
- Aven Mindsensor
- Mystic Snake
- Draning Whelk
...you got the point.There are three card looking for a spot in the deck:
Ulamog (Not sure about the forced shuffling effect)
Praetor's Council (Depends on how Nostalgic Dreams performs)
Ok, I need to make some cuts for some cards that I want to fit in, some I really need suggestions, please....
The ones I know for sure I want in are Entomb and Flash
The other two are Forbidden Alchemy and Regrowth The inclussion on these two will depend if the cut makes sense.
Duplicant - In a 5 color deck you should be able to answer creatures more efficiently. 6 mana removal that only hits creatures is really expensive even if it comes with a body.
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalkers - I've seen him do some pretty powerful things but I really wonder if he's necessary. He's very expensive, doesn't do anything a 5 color deck couldn't already do and he's not on theme at. Plus he's a permanent and aren't you anti-permanent in this deck?
Primal Command - I'd rather have Eladamri's Call. Cheaper, instant and the main reason to run Primal Command is to fetch creatures.
Putrefy - Do you have an extra Vindicate or even Maelstrom Pulse?
A nice bonus is that all these cards are 5+ mana and the cards you're adding are all 3 or less so this should be a nice reduction in your curve.
All the cards you mentioned are part of the cutting block...plus one more: Fauna Shamman .I know she is fine, but sometimes I don't care about activating her.
Brutalizer Exarch can deal with indestructable of agaist recursion, something I dont have in the rest of the list....besides All is Dust. I haven't got the chance to play him that much, so I'll give him another full weekend.
Duplicant...You know what, I agree with you, however Im cutting another Reveillark target. I dont mind getting rid of Duplicant, but I need to watch the Lark count...This deck can't afford to cut too many creatures.
Putrified and Primal Command are nice, but I guess I can find something more efficient. I like the Putrified since I want to have a spot removal option in a Mass control deck. You know, sometimes you want to get rid of a pesky permanent but it's not worthy blowing up Child.
About Mr. Bolas the explanation is simple...He's my pet card of this deck. I know it has no synergy with the deck, but everytime He came out He did it with greatness...lol...I guess it's time for a little vacation for Mr. Bolas. He deserves it.
EDIT-(11/14/2011)
Out:
In:
I will have more info after this weekend.
Reading your old post from 2009-2011 about your COA deck. Its been a few years, have you made any changes? If so, can I take a peek at it?
Godo, Bandit Warlord EDH
Angus Mackenzie Control/Beat
Reanimator Legacy
Burn Legacy
Abzan aggro Standard
I will come back with that list sometime tomorrow or next day. I have few other deck that I'd liked to update too.