[EDH] Zedruu the Greathearted - Donations Appreciated

  • #1
    So I've had this deck planned for some time. Finally got my hands on the one and only Minotaur Monk last night, so I've got her sleeved up today for my regular Sunday afternoon EDH!

    There are two angles of approach to Zedruu as I see her: inoffensive group hug (donate things and pray everyone recognizes you as a nice guy and stays off your back) and brutal nastiness (donating things like Transcendence over and over again). I've tried to find a "middle way" between those poles with this deck.

    Donations AppreciatedMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    General (1)
    1x Zedruu the Greathearted

    Lands (36)
    1x Maze of Ith
    1x Mystifying Maze
    1x Naya Panorama
    1x Reliquary Tower
    1x Homeward Path
    1x Temple of the False God
    1x Terrain Generator
    1x Exotic Orchard
    1x Mystic Gate
    1x Reflecting Pool
    1x Drifting Meadow
    1x Remote Isle
    1x Smoldering Crater
    1x Vivid Crag
    1x Vivid Creek
    1x Vivid Meadow
    1x Command Tower
    1x Azorius Chancery
    1x Boros Garrison
    1x Izzet Boilerworks
    1x Halimar Depths
    1x Glacial Fortress
    4x Island
    5x Plains
    5x Mountain

    Artifacts (13)
    1x Azorius Signet
    1x Boros Signet
    1x Izzet Signet
    1x Coalition Relic
    1x Darksteel Ingot
    1x Sol Ring
    1x Cauldron of Souls
    1x Crystal Shard
    1x Howling Mine
    1x Lightning Greaves
    1x Meekstone
    1x Mindlock Orb
    1x Vedalken Orrery

    Creatures (19)
    1x Primordial Ooze
    1x Blazing Archon
    1x Nin, the Pain Artist
    1x Roil Elemental
    1x Auramancer
    1x Phyrexian Metamorph
    1x Mulldrifter
    1x Kor Sanctifiers
    1x Mnemonic Wall
    1x Taniwha
    1x Molten Firebird
    1x Goblin Welder
    1x Galepowder Mage
    1x Swans of Bryn Argoll
    1x Myojin of Cleansing Fire
    1x Dominus of Fealty
    1x Wall of Omens
    1x Vedalken Plotter
    1x Chromeshell Crab

    Enchantments (18)
    1x Rise of the Hobgoblins
    1x Oblivion Ring
    1x Pyrohemia
    1x Pyromancer's Swath
    1x Volition Reins
    1x Propaganda
    1x Ghostly Prison
    1x Lightmine Field
    1x Puca's Mischief
    1x Stranglehold
    1x Smoke
    1x Cessation
    1x Delaying Shield
    1x Illusions of Grandeur
    1x Thought Lash
    1x Rhystic Study
    1x Leyline of Anticipation
    1x Vow of Flight

    Instants (8)
    1x Time Stop
    1x Master Warcraft
    1x Swords to Plowshares
    1x Ray of Command
    1x Evacuation
    1x Brand
    1x Oblation
    1x Chaos Warp

    Sorceries (4)
    1x Austere Command
    1x Insurrection
    1x Legerdemain
    1x Warp World

    Planeswalker (1)
    1x Venser, the Sojourner



    I'll post comments and thoughts in a few hours, after I've had a chance to play it. Let me know what you think. Smile

    PS Edric list coming in a week! Smile
    "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgment Day: None of us asked to be born in the first place."
    --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
    WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
  • #2
    As finishers Aeon Chronicler, Kiyomaro, First to Stand, and Soramaro, First to Dream are all amazing in my play so far. I have a lot of group hug draw effects, howling mine, font of mythos, ect. I donate them, so my average draw is around 4-6 cards.

    It's pretty damn amazing. These guys are usually 12/12 after my draw step. Soramaro is the best so far because of his evasion, but Kiyomaro is nice since he has vigilance and then sits pretty as a 7/7 after discarding to block.
    Standard: ???
  • #3
    OK, just got back from a LONG day of EDH, almost 12 hours of games!

    The first thing I've decided is that Goblin Welder has to go, all too often he's a dead card. I thought it might be funny to swap artifacts and then weld stuff but in practice it never could happen. He's going to be replaced by Dismantling Blow, which provides two things the deck needs more of - artifact and enchantment removal, and draw.

    The second thing I've discovered: WOW, can this deck defend! Zedruu is your general if you enjoy "Fortress Magic". Expect the game to go long because she's light on win-cons, but you can always win out of nowhere with Insurrection, Brand, etc. Or just steal THEIR win-cons. Wink Until then though, you can become nigh-unkillable with this deck.

    I'm very glad I decided to run both Mazes, though the deck feels a bit land-light on many of its draws. If you're wondering why no Land Tax, look no further than Mindlock + Stranglehold. I've been wanting to combo these cards since Stranglehold was spoiled, and this is the deck for it! (in fact, Aven Mindcensor only narrowly missed the cut for the deck.) The singleton Panorama is probably going out for a Cascade Bluffs or Shivan Reef as soon as I can trade for one. You'd be surprised how utterly a "cannot search libraries" effect will hose out many decks. Especially mono-green ramp decks, which are VERY strong against Zedruu - stopping their overwhelming mana power is very crucial.

    But the double Maze, to return to my topic, is a lifesaver. The deck has enough lifegain that with the maze effects, oblation, etc., I have little chance of losing to general damage out of nowhere. It requires will and effort on my opponent's part to put me in a position where I can lose to general damage.

    That leaves mass token attack, which I have *many* answers to. Naturally if I start giving away tokens, I don't want them coming home to roost. It seems typically that when faced with the prospect of paying 2 to send them at me or swinging for free at someone else, well, as long as I'm not the prohibitive leader, they usually go elsewhere. Rise of the Hobs has been an all-star so far, I can donate the goblins if I want and I can definitely donate the enchantment itself, and if they don't have red or white it's useless to them. In one game I kept Vensering it to replay more tokens, since instead of a kicker, Rise of the Hobs has an enters-the-battlefield optional cost trigger. Grin

    At first I felt the deck was a bit wrath-light but now I feel it's very well balanced. The Austere is a wrath that I can focus on tokens or not as I choose, depending on what I've donated. The Myojin is a wrath I can then donate after I use it and I can just block it with tokens or whatever if it comes my way. Most people just take it and use it as a wall post-wrath to defend against speedy general decks like Skullbriar. Evacuation is essentially a wrath in that it saves my life and slows the game down massively, while resetting many of my tricks and letting me redonate cards to perhaps more deserving recipients. I considered running Kederekt Leviathan and he's still on the shortlist, just don't know what to cut for him. His mass-bounce is a great way to deal with problems of enemies who've assembled "defense in depth" (you know, things like Privileged Position + Greater Auramancy + Akroma's Memorial + Asceticism + guys = unstoppable vs. point removals). Bouncing all these toys could give me the window I need to disrupt them as the enemy tries to replay them. What say my readers? Does the Leviathan make the cut?

    Some individual card explanations, for the curious:

    Cauldron of Souls: creatures that persist return to the battlefield under their owner's control. Nuff said? Wink

    Crystal Shard: The insanity this card can produce is phenomenal. Not only does it tempo-screw all your opponents (esp. whoever's to your immediate right) by forcing them to leave mana up to prevent you from bouncing their most expensive thing, it also combos with every EtB trigger card in the deck (O-Ring trick anyone? 4-cost draw-2 with Mulldrifter?), and it lets you take back your donated stuff to redonate to new targets or reset upkeep costs. The combo with Illusions of Grandeur alone guarantees the Shard its pride of place as MVP in this deck.

    Howling Mine, Meekstone, Smoke, Lightmine Field: cards that provide an overall effect that I want, but don't care who controls them. So I donate them and they're still effective, plus I draw more and gain more life. Lightmine in particular is hilariously good vs. tokens, preventing even small pokes (unlike Propaganda), and unlike my previous fave token smasher, Magus of the Tabernacle, it doesn't let them sac my donations. (Well, it does - but they have to ALSO swing with other guys, and lose them too.) Plus I had this foil Lightmine Field sitting around... Wink

    Orrery / Blueline: these are pretty standard as one-ofs in my EDH decks, but two in this deck is crucial. You want to be Donating on end step, and typically you want to make the donation card on end step and immediately donate it as well, right before you untap. This gives your opponents the smallest window to *use* the donated cards in, and the smallest window in which to disrupt your plans. It also lets you remain flexible about what to donate and when. Time and time again my butt was saved by being able to cast my spells with flash. EDIT: an added note, just remembered. When a creature changes controllership, it's removed from combat. So flashing blockers and then donating them before damage dealing is a great way to deal with non-trampling attackers!

    Primordial Ooze: This card has languished in my box since I picked up about 20 from opening Chronicles packs in the day. Sixteen freaking years I have owned copies of this card. I have never put it in a deck. No one I know or have met has ever put one in a deck. It just. Sucks. So, here, have one!! Especially after Meekstone is out. Kekeke Notice that it's not an upkeep that sacs when you fail to pay, this is more along the lines of Lord of the Pit. I give this to whichever opponent also has lifegain, to keep them from gaining life at a rate similar to mine. That way when Pyrohemia comes along I can burn them out without killing myself.

    Nin, the Pain Artist: At first I was very dubious. She has summoning sickness and is very flimsy. But if you untap with her, it's quite worth it. You can draw a sickening number of cards off her. Obviously, you wait until the last opponent's end step. That way if they try to kill, steal, or exile her, just have her blow her own brains out for cards. "I have ways of making me talk!" Kekeke Working on finding a Stuffy Doll to go with her.

    Roil Elemental: woops, shouldn't have given you that guy. Gimme that back. OR: Gimme that. *turn to other opponent* here, you take it. Kekeke

    Phyrexian Metamorph: OK, this is a new strict rule. If your general has a blue mana symbol in their color identity and this card is not in your deck, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG.

    Kor Sanctifiers: ahh, the things decks without green must stoop to. :*( Where are you, Acidic Slime, my love?

    Warp World, Mnemonic Wall: proving that this deck also harbors a secret combo. I warped 3x in one turn one game, basically using WW as a sorcery with Annihilator 20ish on all opponents. Mnemo wall also tag teams nicely with Venser to regrow Master Warcrafts and Legerdemains, providing endless tricks.

    Taniwha: if I cast this, it is only to donate it. And it is only donated to someone who, for instance, nuked three of my lands with a Terastodon and then O-Stoned. That sort of rough handling deserves the Phasing Yosei. Another example of a brutality donation is Pyro Swath, which I donate to counterspell-heavy decks. These cards are what is called, in politics, "throwing an elbow". The point being that once you prove you're willing to throw an elbow when it's called for, you'll never have to do it again. The deck needs a few flashy, terrifying "revenge" plays to scare people into not messing with you. Just *showing* a player Taniwha can sometimes encourage more... loyalty. :p

    Molten Firebird: I'm running this over Ivory Gargoyle (the original, of which Firebird is the color-shifted reprint) because red is a rarer color than white among EDH decks, so it's more likely that one of my opponents will be unable to activate the exile ability. Donate it, kill it with Pyrohemia, get it back, and they skip their next draw. Soft lock anyone? Not effective until the game is down to one opponent, do this with multiple opponents left and they'll gang up on you out of pity for your victim.

    Chromeshell Crab: I don't own a Gilded Drake. Working on it.

    Vedalken Plotter: I wanted to find room for Political Trickery to have two of these effects. Finally had to cut PT, but it's high on the waiting list. Swapping lands is very effective, especially when they're basics as there's little targeted basic removal in the format, and few would bother to do so. So it basically guarantees a card for Zedruu every turn from then on. And then Plotter can be bounced or Vensered! Kekeke

    Pyrohemia: token suppression that doubles as a draw mechanic when Swans are online. Yes, please.

    Puca's Mischief: Probably second only to shard for nuttiness. The two in combination are a staggeringly dangerous and flexible force, leading to many permanently stolen... well, permanents! :p Plus the card exemplifies the flavor of Zedruu at this stage of the game: mischievous tricks. The art on Insurrection is a better clue to what endgame looks like.

    Delaying Shield: I was thrilled to discover this card in a bulk box. I think I fell in love with Odyssey all over again just because of it. Kekeke The abusiveness of this spell beggars description. One can use it solely to prevent some damage, or Shard it to prevent all damage, but that is for those without the vision to see its true power. Not only does it make you immune to general damage - the only true vulnerability of a lifegain deck - but it lets you threaten horrific retribution for any attempted alpha strike. "If you send that 20-power attack at me, I'll give you the shield. And you don't even have white mana. Oh, attacking him instead? Thought so."

    Thought Lash: I need help with this spell. It's nasty enough as-is: donate to give opponent a factorial mill-to-exile trigger on upkeep that they can't get out of by choosing not to pay. But I've read posts by some who believe Thoughtlash contains an even more vicious possibility. Here is what I have been told, and opinions seem conflicted on whether this works: Pass to your own upkeep while controlling the Lash and Zedruu. Put the age counter on, then choose NOT to pay the upkeep. Put the "exile my library" punishment trigger on the stack, and without letting that resolve, donate the cursed thing. According to some, the unlucky winner of this booby prize will be the one who exiles their library. According to others, I would just wind up exiling my own library while everyone points and laughs. I need to know if this works or not. I will probably pull TL if it *does* work, because I wouldn't feel comfortable running such a harsh "I win" combo. (It's the same reason I'm not running Transcendence.)

    Only running the blue vow because IMO the red and white ones suck. They don't grant evasion! P.S. Vow of Malice is strictly the best of them, for this reason: what precisely can block an Eldrazi or Blightsteel Colossus with Intimidate? Artifact creatures only, unless a Scuttlemutt gives that Eldrazi a color. Kekeke So, when Ulamog / BSC / insert your favorite silly colorless post-Emmy-banning win-stick here comes along, Vow of M = your other opponents die screaming. Vow of Flight is merely OK, not great. Might wind up cutting it for a Shackles or Prison Term.

    Master Warcraft: It's not perfect in every deck with R/W, but in a deck like this, that wants to be a fortress and then win out of nowhere, this is perfect. Nothing beats dropping Blazing Archon, passing the turn, and instructing opponent A to kill opponent B, and opponent B to stand by meekly and take it. (You don't control where the creatures attack, so make sure there's only one possible way they CAN go, or that you have other angles covered.) It's also a fine fog, denying attack steps.

    Oblation, Chaos Warp: Not only are these spectacular removals & tuck effects, they're also great ways to punish someone who tries to use one of your donated toys against you. You remain the owner of the card so YOU get the draw or free permanent. And this deck has a lot of permanents because...

    Warp World. Yeah, deck's secretly a Warp World deck. Who knew? Kekeke

    If anyone would like to try my Zedruu list and let me know how it works for them, or post your own card choices and critiques, I'd love to hear them! Smile
    Last edited by Kasreyn: 6/27/2011 3:14:41 AM
    "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgment Day: None of us asked to be born in the first place."
    --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
    WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
  • #4
    Fyi crystal shards is only creature bounce

    Edit: donating thought lash with unpaid upkeep exiles their library, the donate goes off giving it to them, then unpaid upkeep and they are the new controller even though they did not choose to pay. I use it as a deterrence more than griefing, its a good way to end games
    Last edited by stereosound: 6/27/2011 8:13:54 AM
    EDH Decks:
    RG Wort, the Raidmother GR - 1v1
    UGW Rafiq of the Many WGU - Multiplayer
    BW Ghost Council of Orzhova WB - Multiplayer
  • #5
    So played a two 5 persons games with Zedruu and over the course of 2 games Z got cast 6 times, never once did it survive until the next upkeep.

    Day of Judgement, Gravepact (and shenanigans), Hour of Reckoning, Sulfurous Blast (doubled with Riku), Phyrexian Metamorph (copying Reiver Demon). etc. I know there is not one single card that will address all of these issues, but I need to see a bit more survivability for poor ole Z.

    Darksteel Plate seems fair, but lacks synergy with the rest of the deck. Asceticism is out of color, Safe Haven seems mana intensive and slow. Lightning Greaves is the equipage of choice, but few people are targeting Mr. Goat, he is just inadvertently dying. Maybe equipment is the way to go, using an equipment search subtheme, I will investigate good donate-able equipment.
  • #6
    I'd prefer the Mindcensor over Mindlock Orb so that both your search-hating effects only affect your opponents, and let you search for things yourself. Wild Research is far too powerful to ignore.
  • #7
    Quote from stereosound
    Fyi crystal shards is only creature bounce

    Edit: donating thought lash with unpaid upkeep exiles their library, the donate goes off giving it to them, then unpaid upkeep and they are the new controller even though they did not choose to pay. I use it as a deterrence more than griefing, its a good way to end games


    Can you elaborate more on the Thought lash move...?

    @Beralt
    There are Lighting Greaves Champion's Helm and Clout of the Dominus to star off.
    Also, you can use recursion to outlast them in resources...Like:

    The best ideas often come from the worst minds Evil
    BIG thanks to SB4 at High Light Studios for my humble banner
    EDH
  • #8
    Not to hijack this thread but I have a question I need clarification on, if I Threaten or Act of Treason a creature then give it away to someone else will the original person lose the creature for good or do they get it back at the EOT, if this works do I get life and draw for the creature off Zedruu? Thanks.
    EDH DECKS:

    GBW Ghave
    BWR Kaalia
    UBG Mineoplasm
    URG Riku
    GRW Uril
    GBR Prossh, I need food
    BWU Oloro Lock
    UGW Derevi Blink
    RBU Nekusar, the Mindrazer
    UBRWG Progenitus
    BR Lyzolda
    UB Vela & Her Ninjas
    UG Edric, Spymaster of Trest
    W Lin Sivvi

    Retired:
    RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed
    RWU Zedruu
  • #9
    Best way to deal with hate is to 1. Slowroll it and 2. Run counterspells. You need to be reactive so that way they are not in control. If they are still hating you out, design the deck so it doesn't rely on zed. The thing is, zed himself isn't a threat so he shouldn't be hated on nearly as much.

    What do you need to know about thought lash? Beginning of your upkeep choose not to pay with the effect on the stack donate it. They now own it, the cost wasn't paid so controller removes their library which is now then.
    EDH Decks:
    RG Wort, the Raidmother GR - 1v1
    UGW Rafiq of the Many WGU - Multiplayer
    BW Ghost Council of Orzhova WB - Multiplayer
  • #10
    ilcapo,

    Actually Clout of the Dominus is another route I could go if I chose to go the enchantment route, seems to work well with Wild Research as mentioned above. Idyllic Tutor would fit well with Oblivion Ring, Prison Term, Journey to Nowhere, Propoganda and the Vows, then include Crystal Chimes and other recursion methods.

    This will tailor into Thoughtlash, Illusions and Swath Combos.
  • #11
    Quote from Beralt
    I know there is not one single card that will address all of these issues, but I need to see a bit more survivability for poor ole Z.


    My favorite means to protect Z? Giving her Flash. Most of the things you named are sorcery-speed. I run Orrery + Leyline so that I make her on my last opponent's end step, donate something, untap, get cards, and then Greaves her. They need an instant to shoot her. And I've netted at least one, if not more, cards from her. Then I try to use bounce effects to save her if possible. (Crystal Shard is a wonder for rescuing Z.)

    Quote from luminum can
    I'd prefer the Mindcensor over Mindlock Orb so that both your search-hating effects only affect your opponents, and let you search for things yourself. Wild Research is far too powerful to ignore.


    Umm, I tend to ignore cards that make me discard at random. Shocked All too often with Z. I find myself stockpiling things like Insurrection, extra Propagandas, and say Mindlock while I have Stranglehold online, so as to lose fewer permanents when someone disks. And someone *always* disks, this being EDH. Since my hand is usually a Goodstuff Stockpile, I generally don't have many blanks I'm willing to pitch.

    The true beauty of Stranglehold in this deck is a hidden factor I recognized some time ago about Mindlock Orb: Preventing search gives the advantage to the blue player. Why? Because blue can just dig for its answers, drawing tons until it finds them. Other colors, when locked out of search effects, are reduced to topdecking and occasionally scrying effects to try to dig. Therefore Mindlock Orb benefits blue mages primarily. Stranglehold obviously advantages blue mages and its caster w.r.t. searching, but disadvantages blue mages other than yourself w.r.t. taking extra turns, another blue specialty. I'd say it's still an overall gain even though extra turns combos VERY nicely with drawing multiple per turn. But then, I also like my opponents to still want to play games of EDH with me, and running a lot of extra-turn effects tends to kill that.

    In short, aside from Land Tax and fetchlands, there were practically no search effects I really wanted to include. So Mindlock was a gimme. Stranglehold just provides double the nasty.

    Quote from ilcapo
    Can you elaborate more on the Thought lash move...?


    Here's how it is said to work (Still not sure if I believe that this is legit):

    You cast your Thought Lash. Rather than donating it, you let it go back to your own turn. (You might need to flash it in with Orrery/Leyline or else smart opponents will blow it up on sight.) You put the cumulative upkeep trigger on the stack, then resolve it (no Donate yet). As you resolve the cumu upk trigger you add an age counter, then choose whether to pay the mill-to-exile cost. Choose not to. This triggers the "exile my library" effect. The cumu upk trigger has now resolved fully. The stack clears and state based is checked. Exile-my-library is put on the stack, "my" being "controller of TL". With this on the stack, donate the TL with Zedruu. Donate resolves. Finally, Exile-my-library resolves, and mills out whoever currently controls the TL.

    My only concern is whether the exile-my-library effect will hit the current controller of TL, or the person who controlled the TL when the ability triggered.

    @Beralt
    There are Lighting Greaves Champion's Helm and Clout of the Dominus to star off.


    Not to mention Whispersilk Cloak. Unlike in other EDH decks no one's going to hateswing you to death for Cloaking Zedruu, as she's obviously not a potential source of general-damage victory. It's more expensive is all.

    M12 has an upgraded Greaves coming out that should *definitely* be first pick. Second pick is Greaves, and third pick is Crystal Shard. (Who needs shroud when you can just rescue her?)

    Clout is nice if you can get it attached. Remember that it's sorcery speed and it's an aura, not an equip. You lose it off the first wrath, unlike Greaves.

    Have you considered Totem Armors? Hyena Umbra is a very cheap (1 CMC) way to prevent destruction. Can't stop bounce/exile/tuck though.

    Also, you can use recursion to outlast them in resources...Like:



    I considered this. But then, almost all my EDH decks typically turn into graveyard decks. I wanted to try my hand at a deck that ignores avenues of interaction: by hating out searching, I prevent my opponents from hitting their answers, and by ignoring graveyards and running Relic, I can play an anti-graveyard game as well. As for resources, well, I plan to just draw a lot of cards. Shocked Simplistic I know, but so far it's working well. I'm thinking of finding room for an Elixir of Immortality though, as I've been having problems nearing millout before finding a win-con.

    Quote from bt67
    Not to hijack this thread but I have a question I need clarification on, if I Threaten or Act of Treason a creature then give it away to someone else will the original person lose the creature for good or do they get it back at the EOT, if this works do I get life and draw for the creature off Zedruu? Thanks.


    Act of Treason will wear off on end step but it won't matter because it'll be one "layer" (essentially) "beneath" the Donate, which has the most recent timestamp. Zedruu's donate is permanent, so the person you donate the creature to will retain control until one of the following happens:

    a. They are eliminated
    b. The creature is gotten rid of or is stolen by someone
    c. You (Zedruu's owner) are eliminated.

    If the creature is alive after a or c, then it will revert to whoever controlled it before the Act of Treason, since that will be the most recent (timestamp order) controller.

    Quote from stereosound
    Best way to deal with hate is to 1. Slowroll it and 2. Run counterspells. You need to be reactive so that way they are not in control. If they are still hating you out, design the deck so it doesn't rely on zed. The thing is, zed himself isn't a threat so he shouldn't be hated on nearly as much.


    Buuuutt... I really love this as a Warp World deck!! Shocked I don't want to include too many instants and sorceries. I'll try to find room for Glen Elendra Archmage (can always donate it to a non-blue player), Cryptic, and Dissipate, which are (IMO) the best counters available in the format. Other than Time Stop, which may just be the best counter ever, ignoring mana cost...

    What do you need to know about thought lash? Beginning of your upkeep choose not to pay with the effect on the stack donate it. They now own it, the cost wasn't paid so controller removes their library which is now then.


    Well, that's the thing. My concern was whether the person who will remove their library is set in stone when it triggers (ie., independently of who controls the TL), or whether it only checks on resolution who to punish.

    Quote from Beralt
    ilcapo,

    Actually Clout of the Dominus is another route I could go if I chose to go the enchantment route, seems to work well with Wild Research as mentioned above. Idyllic Tutor would fit well with Oblivion Ring, Prison Term, Journey to Nowhere, Propoganda and the Vows, then include Crystal Chimes and other recursion methods.


    Good idea on Crystal Chime, I think I'll definitely adopt that idea! Smile But as for the vows, I feel all creatures need to gain from them is evasion, so in this deck the only one worth running is the blue one. I don't want the creature I vowed to get blocked when opponent a swings it at opponent b - it might die, after all, and then I lose my aura I paid good mana for! :p When I vow a creature I want it to be beating one of my other opponents down, every turn. Evasion is needful. Trample can be considered a form of evasion, so the green one's ok. The white one is by far the worst, because now the vowed creature can attack one of my opponents and block me. Not good!

    I run Cessation over Prison Term because, while Prison Term is amazing, it's suicide to donate it. If they can kill Zedruu they can lock your entire gameplan out until you find a way to kill the Prison Term, because then you can't recast Zedruu. Prison Term is a fine card, just not for this deck. Cessation works almost like a vow, plus it regrows itself if it dies, so they can't just use a one-off sac effect to spite your card draw.
    Last edited by Kasreyn: 6/27/2011 6:32:07 PM
    "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgment Day: None of us asked to be born in the first place."
    --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
    WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
  • #12
    The risk of randomly discarding a key card when you have a massive grip of cards thanks to Zedruu is pretty minimal. Mistveil Plains is a common pairing with Wild Research as well, just in case something important gets tossed. The ability to tutor for any enchantment or instant, as many times as you want, at instant speed, for only two mana each, is more than worth the additional cost. Even good stuff hoarded in your hand is worth pitching if it means you can get exactly the right tool exactly when you need it.

    You don't have to run it if you really dislike the random discard, obviously. Smile I just want to impress just how strong that card is.
  • #13
    Rainbow Vale is a nice addition since it makes patriotic mana ( Tongue ) and self donates (albeit temporarily). Even if everyone knows what youre up to with Zedruu and makes sure to use it and send it right back to you, you can tap it for mana and send it away again even if you dont spend the mana.

    In terms of protecting Zedruu, if you are going the enchantment route there is Diplomatic Immunity. Tutorable through Enlightened Tutor and Wild Research, protects her and itself, and adds to my Serra's Sanctum count. (You have to be running enough enchantments that you dont plan on donating to make the Sanctum really worth it, though.)
    ლ(゚д゚)ლ - Trades
  • #14
    Q: I control Puca's Mischief and Thought Lash. On my upkeep, I stack my triggers so that the Mischief ability will resolve before Thought Lash's cumulative upkeep and then trade Thought Lash for something. Will my opponents library be removed?

    A: Assuming you choose not to pay the cumulative upkeep, that's exactly what will happen. Thought Lash has an ability that triggers when its cumulative upkeep isn't paid. At the time you don't pay, Thought Lash is controlled by your opponent, so he'll control the triggered ability, and it'll be his library that gets eaten.

    Note that you'll also be instructed to sacrifice the Thought Lash, but you won't be able to, because you don't control it.

    From http://mtgsalvation.com/989-cranial-insertion-under-the-weather.html

    Can we put it to rest that it works now?
    EDH Decks:
    RG Wort, the Raidmother GR - 1v1
    UGW Rafiq of the Many WGU - Multiplayer
    BW Ghost Council of Orzhova WB - Multiplayer
  • #15
    I understand you about not wanting to turn this deck into graveyard recursion. It happens to me everytime i build a new deck. It seems inevitable not to use graveyard and its massive resourceable quality.
    I'd say that not using graveyard recursion in EDH (im not talking about Reanimation decks) is not using 100% of the potential that any giving Commander can offer.

    The other route (as you mentioned) is becoming a Hater Deck...you know, hate tutor effects, graveyard, drawing, life gain...Kaervek the Merciless is a good commander for that type of deck.
    The best ideas often come from the worst minds Evil
    BIG thanks to SB4 at High Light Studios for my humble banner
    EDH
  • #16
    I like the idea behind this deck Smile
    I'll keep checking this page and if I find enough of the cards, will probably give it a shot! if anything comes to my mind, I'll try and give my 2 cents as well!

    This evil idea came up to me while going through my binder, and decided I wanted to share:

    celestial dawn
    for us, would be the perfect mana fixer.
    but also a terrible menace for others, as in cutting them out of their colors TOTALLY! Am I wrong? (rule 4 A deck may not generate mana outside its colours. If an effect would generate mana of an illegal colour, it generates colourless mana instead.)
    If it works, its a really nasty threat, but it can stay on our field happily while illusion, transcendece and the others, are not really welcome "chez nous" either.
    Unless, of course, they play white too, in which case, better stick it to our side :S
    Last edited by TankReady: 7/9/2011 9:46:43 PM
    I'm saving Swans of Bryn Argoll from Chain of Plasma attacks.
    If you wanna help me, send your Swans to the "Swans of Bryn Argoll Rescue Center"
    48 Swans rescued so far

    EdH:
    Kresh,the Bloodbraided
    Scion of the ur dragon (work in progress)
    Zedruu the greathearted
    Ashling the pilgrim
    Random WUR for swans
  • #17
    Seems like you lack wicked creatures to donate. Steel Golem, Grid Monitor, and Akron Legionnaire aren't as devastating to a player as donating them a Celestial Dawn, Transcendence, or Thought Lash, but they certainly can be fun things to trade. They're also great with Chromeshell Crab, Puca's Mischief, Legerdemain, Juxtapose, Spawnbroker, Cultural Exchange, or any other exchange effect.
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  • #18
    Quote from TankReady

    This evil idea came up to me while going through my binder, and decided I wanted to share:

    celestial dawn
    for us, would be the perfect mana fixer.
    but also a terrible menace for others, as in cutting them out of their colors TOTALLY! Am I wrong? (rule 4 A deck may not generate mana outside its colours. If an effect would generate mana of an illegal colour, it generates colourless mana instead.)
    If it works, its a really nasty threat, but it can stay on our field happily while illusion, transcendece and the others, are not really welcome "chez nous" either.
    Unless, of course, they play white too, in which case, better stick it to our side :S


    That IS truly nasty! Kudos... O_o;;; you scare me.

    But: wouldn't the Celestial Dawn also turn their general (whether in play or not) white, and thus allow white mana as part of their general's color definition? Or is that pre-set at the start of the game based on the general's printed mana symbols?

    Quote from Wildfire393
    Seems like you lack wicked creatures to donate. Steel Golem, Grid Monitor, and Akron Legionnaire aren't as devastating to a player as donating them a Celestial Dawn, Transcendence, or Thought Lash, but they certainly can be fun things to trade.


    I'm trying to get my hands on a Cultural Exchange. No luck yet. Shocked I'm considering throwing in Rust Elemental, but then they could sac other donated things. Would also tend to eat a lot of mana rocks, and messing with people's mana draws serious hate. Also, Steel Golem worries me. If I make it and they, say, Trickbind the Donate and then kill Zedruu, I'm in big trouble - I can't recast her!! I don't like cards that, if I can't donate them immediately, I'm hosed. >_
    "Extenuating circumstance to be mentioned on Judgment Day: None of us asked to be born in the first place."
    --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
    WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
  • #19
    It is the will of Zedruu.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should have … this Howling Mine.
    Take it.
    I bequeath it to you.
    While you possess it, it shall draw both of us extra cards.
    I’m going to gain a life now.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should have … these Goblin Cadets.
    May they serve you well. Although they flinch in battle, they occasionally reach through to an opponent.
    I want you to have them.
    I will be over here, drawing extra cards.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should have … the rest of this sandwich.
    Do you not want the rest of this sandwich?
    I haven’t even eaten half of it.
    It is good, it is an asiago turkey club.
    From Panera.
    Right, the one near the college.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should take the sandwich, and finish most of it.
    Take it. I insist.
    I will be over here, gaining extra life.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should have … this parking ticket.
    I obtained it downtown.
    How was I to know that that was a one-hour parking zone?
    It is ironic that I should get a parking ticket so near the courthouse.
    You see, I will have to go back there to pay it.
    Take it.
    You should have the parking ticket. I insist.
    I will just … there. I will just draw this extra card.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should have … this cold.
    Yes. It is a doozy.
    I missed a day of work because of it.
    There you go. You’ll start sneezing soon.
    I will be over here, drawing extra cards.
    I feel better already.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should have … this venereal disease.
    It is my gift to you.
    Don’t worry, it is a minor one.
    It’s not one of the big ones.
    Just some weird goat VD.
    A doctor will clear it right up.
    Try not to scratch when it itches.
    I will be over here, gaining extra life.
    Ah, that’s so much better.
    It is the will of Zedruu that you should have many pleasing things.
    Here, this is a bag of used needles.

    (as found here http://magiclampoon.com/blog/2011/06/19/it-is-the-will-of-zedruu)


    Take it, I insist!
    ^______^
    I'm saving Swans of Bryn Argoll from Chain of Plasma attacks.
    If you wanna help me, send your Swans to the "Swans of Bryn Argoll Rescue Center"
    48 Swans rescued so far

    EdH:
    Kresh,the Bloodbraided
    Scion of the ur dragon (work in progress)
    Zedruu the greathearted
    Ashling the pilgrim
    Random WUR for swans
  • #20
    Quote from Kasreyn
    That IS truly nasty! Kudos... O_o;;; you scare me.

    But: wouldn't the Celestial Dawn also turn their general (whether in play or not) white, and thus allow white mana as part of their general's color definition? Or is that pre-set at the start of the game based on the general's printed mana symbols?


    Your commander's colors are set at the start of the game.

    I locked out a guy with it Saturday, he had stolen Zedruu so I had to go to plan B and use Puca's Mischief to give him the CD. He wasn't happy with me using such a brutal tactic (we keep it pretty casual) but I explained to him that the deck was light on win conditions.
  • #21
    Quote from Kasreyn

    I'm trying to get my hands on a Cultural Exchange. No luck yet. Shocked I'm considering throwing in Rust Elemental, but then they could sac other donated things. Would also tend to eat a lot of mana rocks, and messing with people's mana draws serious hate. Also, Steel Golem worries me. If I make it and they, say, Trickbind the Donate and then kill Zedruu, I'm in big trouble - I can't recast her!! I don't like cards that, if I can't donate them immediately, I'm hosed. >_


    Rust Elemental seems a little underwhelming.

    Steel Golem/Grid Monitor are really good in the deck. Yes, you run the risk of having Zedruu killed in response, but you should have other outs to them in the deck, whether it's other swap cards like Juxtapose, Legerdemain, and Cultural Exchange, or sac outlets like High Market and Phyrexia's Core.
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  • #22
    ARCHMAGE ASCENSION
    OHMYGOD!


    and whatabout embargo (dont know if its already been mentioned)

    also bulwark and grafted skullcap seems to be nice Smile

    going to build my deck and post as soon as I have feedbacks!
    Last edited by TankReady: 7/22/2011 3:36:21 PM
    I'm saving Swans of Bryn Argoll from Chain of Plasma attacks.
    If you wanna help me, send your Swans to the "Swans of Bryn Argoll Rescue Center"
    48 Swans rescued so far

    EdH:
    Kresh,the Bloodbraided
    Scion of the ur dragon (work in progress)
    Zedruu the greathearted
    Ashling the pilgrim
    Random WUR for swans
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