OK, a friend of mine talked me into building an EDH deck, so I threw one together with cards I had sitting around. I wanted to get some opinions and advice since I haven't played in this format. Please let me know what you think and which Commander I should use. Original Deck - Updated Below
I tried to use cards that would provide me with card advantage, such as fetch, draw, and a little cascade. A couple of cards that I would like to add are Wooded Bastion, Path to Exile, and Swords to Plowshares. I would also prefer to put in a few more Equipments that would better serve this deck. However, I don't want to spend a ton of time trading for the deck until I play and figure out if I like the format.
Any ideas or suggestions from experienced players would be greatly appreciated.
OK, before you start, you need to understand that EDH simply isn't the same as other formats like Standard or Extended or Limited. Cards that might be all-stars in those formats are not necessarily going to be good in EDH, and cards that are unplayable in other formats are going to be amazing in EDH. For example:
- In most formats Chalice of the Void is incredibly useful, but it is unplayable in EDH.
- Vicious Shadows is pretty awful in most other formats, but it rocks the house in EDH.
- Baneslayer Angel is just as good in EDH as it is in other formats.
Now then, the first rule of EDH is also very simple: GO BIG OR GO HOME. I cannot stress this one enough, because every new EDH player fails to understand it. If a card doesn't make people go "Dang, that's awesome!" or "Oh crap, that needs to be dealt with", it isn't worth running. For example:
- Ponder sucks in EDH. Don't EVER run it. You only get one in a 100 card deck, so the odds of drawing it are next to nothing, and when you do, you probably won't get much out of it.
- Conversely, Sensei's Divining Top is the single BEST card in EDH. Period. End of discussion. It can go in any EDH deck ever made. It allows you to Ponder as many times as you want, and there are very few ways to get rid of it besides a split second card or a counter.
Other deck-building basics that are exclusive to EDH:
- Ramping is critical. Every color combination has multiple different ways to ramp, including Ravnica-block Signets, Mirage-block Diamonds, Mirrodin-block Talismans, Invasion-block Cameos, Alara-block Obelisks or Borderposts, and Darksteel Ingot (another EDH all-star that almost every deck runs). Note that all of these artifacts are dirt-cheap, so no whining about budget. Depending on your colors, there could be many more choices.
- Tutoring is critical. You run 99 cards in your deck (plus your general), so the odds of drawing one specific card are pretty small. Therefore, you need to either pack your deck full of so many goodies that it doesn't matter what you draw, or you need to include more ways to find what you need.
- Abilities need to be repeatable. Doing something only once is not acceptable, unless that one thing is exceptionally good (like Wrath of God or Bribery or Vindicate). See the Ponder/Top example above.
- EDH is supposed to be a multi-player format, as opposed to other formats where it's just 1-on-1. This is important because cards that affect only one player are not as good, whereas global effects are much better.
- Because it is a multi-player format, creatures are very fragile in EDH. With 3-6 people in the game, the odds are pretty good that someone will have a Wrath-effect at least once every game. Therefore, another good rule of thumb is this: the smaller the creature, the better its ability needs to be, because its odds of survival are that much worse.
- Because creatures are often very fragile, auras are AWFUL. Since creatures die all the time, trying to put an Aura on them is just asking for card-disadvantage.
- Everyone starts with 40 life, not 20. So, Lightning Bolt-ing a player is not going to make much of a dent in their total, but it will piss them off and attract their wrath at you (which you won't be able to handle if you play weak stuff like Lightning Bolt).
Finally, some specific notes for you:
- On your general choice: it depends on what you want to do with your deck. Your general should be a large part of how you build your deck, but at the same time be able to operate without it in case someone Hinders it. If your goal is to utilize the double-strike ability of Rafiq, then make sure you have plenty of big guys that could get even better with double-strike. If your goal is to just win with 21 general damage, go with Jenara and include a bunch of equipment or things to clear a path between her and your opponent's dome.
Some things I would cut, and why (I apologize for being harsh, but it's best to learn the reality up front so you don't get discouraged when you try to play weaker cards and then flop):
- Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise: In standard, you can use these to accelerate yourself because there are four of them in a 60-card deck, as opposed to 2 out of 99. Do the math. There are better ways to accelerate yourself. Try using Signets or Talismans or Cameos.
- Akrasan Squire: Way too small. Remember the first rule: go big or go home.
- Jhessian Infiltrator: Too small. Remember that people start at 40 life, and there should be 3-6 people per game.
- Steward of Valeron: Same as Birds of Paradise.
- Aven Squire: Same as Akrasan Squire.
- Valeron/Vedalken Outlander: Too small, plus you can't guarantee that you will be playing someone with those colors.
- Kor Skyfisher: Any card with a drawback or a penalty (like this one) is generally bad in EDH. Plus, it's too small.
- Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers: BORRRING. Go big or go home.
- Qasali Ambusher: OMG, there's a 2/3 creature that's going to try and "ambush" my Elder Dragon! OH NO!
- Nulltread Gargantuan: See "cards with drawbacks or penalties".
- Jhessian Balmgiver: Too fragile. Go big or go home.
- Kor Sanctifiers: The 2/3 body is pretty small and insignificant, so you're just playing four mana for a Disenchant. If you want a good way to Disenchant something, try Return to Dust or Krosan Grip (the latter is particularly good because it kills Tops).
- Kor Cartographer: Again, the body is insignificant, so you're paying four mana for a Plains. Try Sakura-Tribe Elder instead. At least when someone wraths, you can sacrifice it in response to get your land.
- Ranger of Eos: Not worth it, since there aren't many good one-drops in EDH.
- Sovereigns of Lost Alara: Remember your three A's: Auras. Are. Awful.
- Skyward Eye Prophets: 3/3 vigilance for 6 mana is weak. Try Mind's Eye for some serious draw power.
- Ponder: See above example on why it sucks.
- Angelsong: It doesn't kill anything, it only works once, it's just weak.
- Naturalize: Not terrible, but Krosan Grip is much better.
- Worldly Counsel: This card was barely usable in draft decks. Go big or go home.
- Flurry of Wings: Another card that wasn't even good in draft.
- Safewright Quest: Only works once, doesn't put the land into play, doesn't make the cut.
- Fabricate: Not bad, if you have a lot of good artifacts. Enlightened Tutor is cheaper and faster.
- Gift of the Gargantuan: Another bad limited card.
- Solemn Offering: See Krosan Grip.
- Divination: Try Mulldrifter or Mind's Eye or Coiling Oracle.
- Captured Sunlight: When you start with 40 life, gaining 4 life is not very exciting.
- Favor of the Overbeing: A.A.A. (why not just play the Overbeing itself?)
- Pacifism: A.A.A.
- Journey to Nowhere: Try Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares.
- Khalni Heart Expedition: Try Kodama's Reach instead. It's much safer.
- Ardent Plea: BORRRRRRRRRRING!
- Shield of the Oversoul: A.A.A.
- Sigil of the Nayan Gods: A.A.A.
- Asha's Favor: A.A.A.
If you want ideas on what to add for either general, try looking in the Deck Database thread for ideas. I'll give you a couple to start with:
I appreciate all of the feedback, no offense taken on anything. This will really give me a lot to think about on how to change things up as needed.
I tried to focus on cards that I had rather than netdeck and try to buy a bunch of stuff. However, I will probably pick up a bunch of the commons listed above to help fill out the deck. Some of the other cards you mentioned I already have.
OK, OCPunisher. With your suggestions in mind, I have been fevorishly hunting down cards and making a few trades. I have put together the following deck.
The mana base is running pretty smooth, but there's still a few changes I'd like to make. I'd like to get replacements for the Simic Growth Chamber and Vivids.
I have a Hinder, which I think would be better than the Cancel and I may swap that out. I Hinder/Condemn your General then cast Bribery. Is that possible?
I have a Hinder, which I think would be better than the Cancel and I may swap that out. I Hinder/Condemn your General then cast Bribery. Is that possible?
It is possible and its a very good play.
Have You considered Might of Oaks? It lets You 1 shot kill somebody with your general.
Have You considered Might of Oaks? It lets You 1 shot kill somebody with your general.
I thought about it, but since it's a one-shot I kind of avoided it. I'm enjoying the equipment thing. Especially when I tutor for a Stonehewer and bring him out with Lurking Predators.
I actually got out Kaldra against my son with Tatsumasa and Whispersilk Cloak attached (14/14 Indestrucible, Unblockable, Haste, First Strike, Shroud) and I was hitting him for 30 a turn, but the little turd beat me with flying, buffed, lifelinked slivers:o Now I'm debating whether I really want to get him that Sliver Queen.
I thought about it, but since it's a one-shot I kind of avoided it. I'm enjoying the equipment thing. Especially when I tutor for a Stonehewer and bring him out with Lurking Predators.
I actually got out Kaldra against my son with Tatsumasa and Whispersilk Cloak attached (14/14 Indestrucible, Unblockable, Haste, First Strike, Shroud) and I was hitting him for 30 a turn, but the little turd beat me with flying, buffed, lifelinked slivers:o Now I'm debating whether I really want to get him that Sliver Queen.
Get him the Queen! You're not AFRAID, are you!?
I highly suggest the best creature auras ever: Rancor and Armadillo Cloak. They have never let my Rafiq down. Hulk smash!
The analysis of kor cartographer in the second post isnt entirely right. Because it fetches for plains you can get duals like hallowed fountain, savannah, or tundra. Wood elves is better though. It costs less and the land does not enter tapped, and there is a badass looking promo done by rebecca guay of it. Decks running beta or ravnica block duals and green should probably be running wood elves. Similarly natures lore is good for this reason. It targets a basic land type, not basic lands, so you can get good lands with it.
Original Deck - Updated Below
1 Rafiq of the Many
2 Jenara, Asura of War
Creatures (28):
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
5 Akrasan Squire
6 Stoneforge Mystic
7 Jhessian Infiltrator
8 Stewart of Valeron
9 Aven Squire
10 Valeron Outlander
11 Vedalken Outlander
12 Kor Skyfisher
13 Qasali Pridemage
14 Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
15 Dauntless Escort
16 Qasali Ambusher
17 Rhox Warmonk
18 Borderland Ranger
19 Nulltread Gargantuan
20 Winged Coatl
21 Giltspire Avenger
22 Jhessian Balmgiver
23 Kor Sanctifiers
24 Kor Cartographer
25 Oracle of Mul Daya
26 Ranger of Eos
27 Oversoul of Dusk
28 Sovereigns of Lost Alara
29 Skyward Eye Prophets
30 Hindering Light
31 Angelsong
32 Natualize
33 Worldly Counsel
34 Bant Charm
35 Flurry of Wings
Sorceries (11):
36 Safewright Quest
38 Rampant Growth
39 Fabricate
40 Gift of the Gargantuan
41 Solemn Offering
42 Diviniation
43 Breath of Life
44 Captured Sunlight
45 Primal Command
46 Wargate
Enchantments (10):
47 Favor of the Overbeing
48 Journey to Nowhere
49 Pacifism
50 Khalani Heart Expedition
51 Shield of the Oversoul
52 Sigil of the Nayan Gods
53 Ardent Plea
54 Asha's Favor
55 Oblivion Ring
56 Finest Hour
57 Armillary Sphere
58 Gorgon Flail
59 Behemoth Sledge
60 Whispersilk Cloak
Lands (40):
61 Seaside Citadel
62 Rupture Spire
63 Graypelt Refuge
64 Kabrira Crossroads
65 Sejiri Refuge
66 Stirring Wildwood
67 Celestial Colonnade
68 Halimar Depths
69 Seijiri Steppe
70 Vivid Meadow
71 Vivid Grove
72 Vivid Creek
73 Nata Panorama
74 Esper Panorama
75 Bant Panorama
76 Terramorphic Expanse
77 Ancient Ziggurat
78 Exotic Orchard
79 Mystic Gate
80 Reliquary Tower
81 Dread Statuary
I tried to use cards that would provide me with card advantage, such as fetch, draw, and a little cascade. A couple of cards that I would like to add are Wooded Bastion, Path to Exile, and Swords to Plowshares. I would also prefer to put in a few more Equipments that would better serve this deck. However, I don't want to spend a ton of time trading for the deck until I play and figure out if I like the format.
Any ideas or suggestions from experienced players would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Rory
EDH:
:symw::symw::symw:Darien:symw::symw::symw:
:symr::symr::symr:Lovisa:symr::symr::symr:
:symu::symw::symg:Rafiq:symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg:Karrthus:symb::symr::symg:
:symr::symw::symb:Kaalia:symr::symw::symb:
- In most formats Chalice of the Void is incredibly useful, but it is unplayable in EDH.
- Vicious Shadows is pretty awful in most other formats, but it rocks the house in EDH.
- Baneslayer Angel is just as good in EDH as it is in other formats.
Now then, the first rule of EDH is also very simple: GO BIG OR GO HOME. I cannot stress this one enough, because every new EDH player fails to understand it. If a card doesn't make people go "Dang, that's awesome!" or "Oh crap, that needs to be dealt with", it isn't worth running. For example:
- Ponder sucks in EDH. Don't EVER run it. You only get one in a 100 card deck, so the odds of drawing it are next to nothing, and when you do, you probably won't get much out of it.
- Conversely, Sensei's Divining Top is the single BEST card in EDH. Period. End of discussion. It can go in any EDH deck ever made. It allows you to Ponder as many times as you want, and there are very few ways to get rid of it besides a split second card or a counter.
Other deck-building basics that are exclusive to EDH:
- Ramping is critical. Every color combination has multiple different ways to ramp, including Ravnica-block Signets, Mirage-block Diamonds, Mirrodin-block Talismans, Invasion-block Cameos, Alara-block Obelisks or Borderposts, and Darksteel Ingot (another EDH all-star that almost every deck runs). Note that all of these artifacts are dirt-cheap, so no whining about budget. Depending on your colors, there could be many more choices.
- Tutoring is critical. You run 99 cards in your deck (plus your general), so the odds of drawing one specific card are pretty small. Therefore, you need to either pack your deck full of so many goodies that it doesn't matter what you draw, or you need to include more ways to find what you need.
- Abilities need to be repeatable. Doing something only once is not acceptable, unless that one thing is exceptionally good (like Wrath of God or Bribery or Vindicate). See the Ponder/Top example above.
- EDH is supposed to be a multi-player format, as opposed to other formats where it's just 1-on-1. This is important because cards that affect only one player are not as good, whereas global effects are much better.
- Because it is a multi-player format, creatures are very fragile in EDH. With 3-6 people in the game, the odds are pretty good that someone will have a Wrath-effect at least once every game. Therefore, another good rule of thumb is this: the smaller the creature, the better its ability needs to be, because its odds of survival are that much worse.
- Because creatures are often very fragile, auras are AWFUL. Since creatures die all the time, trying to put an Aura on them is just asking for card-disadvantage.
- Everyone starts with 40 life, not 20. So, Lightning Bolt-ing a player is not going to make much of a dent in their total, but it will piss them off and attract their wrath at you (which you won't be able to handle if you play weak stuff like Lightning Bolt).
Finally, some specific notes for you:
- On your general choice: it depends on what you want to do with your deck. Your general should be a large part of how you build your deck, but at the same time be able to operate without it in case someone Hinders it. If your goal is to utilize the double-strike ability of Rafiq, then make sure you have plenty of big guys that could get even better with double-strike. If your goal is to just win with 21 general damage, go with Jenara and include a bunch of equipment or things to clear a path between her and your opponent's dome.
Some things I would cut, and why (I apologize for being harsh, but it's best to learn the reality up front so you don't get discouraged when you try to play weaker cards and then flop):
- Noble Hierarch/Birds of Paradise: In standard, you can use these to accelerate yourself because there are four of them in a 60-card deck, as opposed to 2 out of 99. Do the math. There are better ways to accelerate yourself. Try using Signets or Talismans or Cameos.
- Akrasan Squire: Way too small. Remember the first rule: go big or go home.
- Jhessian Infiltrator: Too small. Remember that people start at 40 life, and there should be 3-6 people per game.
- Steward of Valeron: Same as Birds of Paradise.
- Aven Squire: Same as Akrasan Squire.
- Valeron/Vedalken Outlander: Too small, plus you can't guarantee that you will be playing someone with those colors.
- Kor Skyfisher: Any card with a drawback or a penalty (like this one) is generally bad in EDH. Plus, it's too small.
- Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers: BORRRING. Go big or go home.
- Qasali Ambusher: OMG, there's a 2/3 creature that's going to try and "ambush" my Elder Dragon! OH NO!
- Nulltread Gargantuan: See "cards with drawbacks or penalties".
- Jhessian Balmgiver: Too fragile. Go big or go home.
- Kor Sanctifiers: The 2/3 body is pretty small and insignificant, so you're just playing four mana for a Disenchant. If you want a good way to Disenchant something, try Return to Dust or Krosan Grip (the latter is particularly good because it kills Tops).
- Kor Cartographer: Again, the body is insignificant, so you're paying four mana for a Plains. Try Sakura-Tribe Elder instead. At least when someone wraths, you can sacrifice it in response to get your land.
- Ranger of Eos: Not worth it, since there aren't many good one-drops in EDH.
- Sovereigns of Lost Alara: Remember your three A's: Auras. Are. Awful.
- Skyward Eye Prophets: 3/3 vigilance for 6 mana is weak. Try Mind's Eye for some serious draw power.
- Ponder: See above example on why it sucks.
- Angelsong: It doesn't kill anything, it only works once, it's just weak.
- Naturalize: Not terrible, but Krosan Grip is much better.
- Worldly Counsel: This card was barely usable in draft decks. Go big or go home.
- Flurry of Wings: Another card that wasn't even good in draft.
- Safewright Quest: Only works once, doesn't put the land into play, doesn't make the cut.
- Fabricate: Not bad, if you have a lot of good artifacts. Enlightened Tutor is cheaper and faster.
- Gift of the Gargantuan: Another bad limited card.
- Solemn Offering: See Krosan Grip.
- Divination: Try Mulldrifter or Mind's Eye or Coiling Oracle.
- Captured Sunlight: When you start with 40 life, gaining 4 life is not very exciting.
- Favor of the Overbeing: A.A.A. (why not just play the Overbeing itself?)
- Pacifism: A.A.A.
- Journey to Nowhere: Try Path to Exile or Swords to Plowshares.
- Khalni Heart Expedition: Try Kodama's Reach instead. It's much safer.
- Ardent Plea: BORRRRRRRRRRING!
- Shield of the Oversoul: A.A.A.
- Sigil of the Nayan Gods: A.A.A.
- Asha's Favor: A.A.A.
If you want ideas on what to add for either general, try looking in the Deck Database thread for ideas. I'll give you a couple to start with:
For Rafiq:
- Iridescent Angel would look good with double-strike.
- So would Cold-Eyed Selkie.
- So would Loxodon Warhammer.
- So would the three Kaldra equipments (and the token they make).
For Jenara:
- Spearbreaker Behemoth would help her stay alive.
- Lightning Greaves would keep her alive.
Hope that helps you.
I tried to focus on cards that I had rather than netdeck and try to buy a bunch of stuff. However, I will probably pick up a bunch of the commons listed above to help fill out the deck. Some of the other cards you mentioned I already have.
Thanks a bunch
EDH:
:symw::symw::symw:Darien:symw::symw::symw:
:symr::symr::symr:Lovisa:symr::symr::symr:
:symu::symw::symg:Rafiq:symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg:Karrthus:symb::symr::symg:
:symr::symw::symb:Kaalia:symr::symw::symb:
1 Rafiq of the Many
Creatures (22):
2 Jenara, Asura of War
3 Akroma, Angel of Wrath (DvD Foil)
4 Reya Dawnbringer
5 Treva, the Renewer
6 Spearbreaker Behemoth
7 Stoneforge Mystic (Foil)
8 Qasali Pridemage (Foil)
9 Giltspire Avenger
10 Rhox War Monk
11 Eternal Witness
12 Yavimaya Elder
13 Cold-Eyed Selkie
14 Trinket Mage
15 Dauntless Escort
16 Magus of the Tabernacle
17 Magus of the Disk
18 Glen Elendra Archmage
19 Oracle of Mul Daya (Foil)
20 Stonehewer Giant
21 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
22 Acidic Slime
23 Mulldrifter
Destruction (8):
24 Path to Exile (Foil)
25 Swords to Plowshares
26 Condemn
27 Treva's Charm
28 Bant Charm
29 Krosan Grip
30 Oblivion Ring (FNM Foil)
31 Catastrophe
32 Counterspell
33 Mana Short
34 Hinder
35 Bribery
36 Cryptic Command
Tutor (7):
37 Mystical Tutor
38 Enlightened Tutor
39 Worldly Tutor
40 Breath of Life
41 Time of Need
42 Primal Command (Foil)
43 Wargate
Enchantments (3):
44 Rhystic Study
45 Lurking Predators
46 Finest Hour
Ramp (5):
47 Sol Ring
48 Darksteel Ingot
49 Coalition Relic
50 Untamed Wilds
51 Kodama's Reach (Foil)
Artifacts (9):
52 Sensei's Divining Top
53 Isochron Scepter
54 Behemoth Sledge
55 Whispersilk Cloak
56 Crucible of Worlds
57 Helm of Kaldra
58 Shield of Kaldra
59 Sword of Kaldra
60 Tatsumasa, the Dragon's Fang
61 Terramorphic Expanse
62 Bant Panorama
63 Naya Panorama
64 Esper Panorama
65 Seaside Citadel
66 Treva's Ruins
67 Stirring Wildwood
68 Celestial Colonnade
69 Glacial Fortress
70 Savannah
71 Vivid Meadow
72 Vivid Grove
73 Vivid Creek
74 Adakar Wastes
75 Yavimaya Coast
76 Brushland
77 Nimbus Maze
78 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
79 Simic Growth Chamber
80 Mystic Gate
81 Flooded Grove
82 Wooded Bastion
83 Pillar of the Paruns
84 Academy Ruins
85 Vesuva
The mana base is running pretty smooth, but there's still a few changes I'd like to make. I'd like to get replacements for the Simic Growth Chamber and Vivids.
I have a Hinder, which I think would be better than the Cancel and I may swap that out. I Hinder/Condemn your General then cast Bribery. Is that possible?
Academy Rector would also be a good addition.
Let me know if you have any thoughts or suggestions.
Thanks
Change Log:
-1 Cancel, +1 Hinder
-1 Sunpetal Grove, +1 Savannah
EDH:
:symw::symw::symw:Darien:symw::symw::symw:
:symr::symr::symr:Lovisa:symr::symr::symr:
:symu::symw::symg:Rafiq:symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg:Karrthus:symb::symr::symg:
:symr::symw::symb:Kaalia:symr::symw::symb:
It is possible and its a very good play.
Have You considered Might of Oaks? It lets You 1 shot kill somebody with your general.
I thought about it, but since it's a one-shot I kind of avoided it. I'm enjoying the equipment thing. Especially when I tutor for a Stonehewer and bring him out with Lurking Predators.
I actually got out Kaldra against my son with Tatsumasa and Whispersilk Cloak attached (14/14 Indestrucible, Unblockable, Haste, First Strike, Shroud) and I was hitting him for 30 a turn, but the little turd beat me with flying, buffed, lifelinked slivers:o Now I'm debating whether I really want to get him that Sliver Queen.
EDH:
:symw::symw::symw:Darien:symw::symw::symw:
:symr::symr::symr:Lovisa:symr::symr::symr:
:symu::symw::symg:Rafiq:symu::symw::symg:
:symb::symr::symg:Karrthus:symb::symr::symg:
:symr::symw::symb:Kaalia:symr::symw::symb:
Get him the Queen! You're not AFRAID, are you!?
I highly suggest the best creature auras ever: Rancor and Armadillo Cloak. They have never let my Rafiq down. Hulk smash!
Also great additions, if you can acquire them: Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of Light and Shadow, and Umezawa's Jitte. They're expensive and difficult to trade for, but they are the BEST equipment ever printed. o.0