Making a Thraximundar control deck for 1v1 play, the gameplan being stall until i can play thrax with counterspell or removal backup and start swinging for commander damage. I know that the land base is particularly weak and shocks will be the first thing i add, replacing the vivid cycle lands. Are there any cards in the deck that seem particularly weak, and any suggestions for replacements?
As a fellow Thraximundar player, it brings me great pain to say: DO NOT play Thraximundar unless you can dump 5 million dollars into the mana base. It is imperative in Thraximundar to have all of your colors and lands on time and untapped(mostly - exceptions are Bojuka Bog and Creeping Tar Pit). I would suggest trying a two-color control shell such as Wydwen, the Biting Gale or Nin, the Pain Artist with a less restrictive mana base before trying to build Thrax.
However, if you're practicing on paper (and aren't signed up to use Cockatrice), I highly recommend printing off proxies of a tuned Thraximundar list and giving it a spin. It's what I did when I started the deck as I slowly replaced the proxies with real cards.
My thoughts on your list currently:
-Sol Ring is banned in Duel Commander (the 1v1 format). If you are just playing with the multiplayer list, it is legal.
-Olivia Voldaren is not great in this deck - if you want to run a mind control effect in this deck, run Treachery. It untaps your lands, leaving counter magic open and you really only ever need to steal one creature.
-Hinder does not tuck Commanders in Duel Commander. This is fine for multiplayer though.
-You will never have enough cards in hand to make full use of Reliquary Tower. You will be spending those cards to control your opponent.
-Wild Ricochet is very difficult to make work well. You might blow someone out by redirecting their Ancestral Vision to you but at that point, they're probably going to be able to stop you. A card that narrow that costs 4 mana does not have a place in the deck.
-Notion Thief is a card I really wanted to work, but like Wild Ricochet is too cute and never resolves, lives, or matters when you want it to. Someone who has enough mana to draw 3+ cards also has enough mana to kill or counter your Thief.
-Don't forget to include Chainer's Edict and Forbidden Alchemy. They're very good cards and this deck is usually in a position where they can comfortably flashback them.
-Drop Cruel Ultimatum - if you're not playing a perfect manabase, you will never have the right colors/untapped lands to play this when it matters. I'd replace it with more spot hand hate, like Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress.
-I've never been a fan of the Trinket Mage package but I also have no experience in using it so if it does well in your testing that's fine.
-Where's ROOFTOP STORM!?!!?!?! (Keep in mind general tax still applies here. But casting Thrax for 0, 2, 4, 6 colorless is really nice)
I can post my Duel Commander list here, if you would like. Let me know!
Thirst for Knowledge - Usually this card shines in way heavier artifact builds. I find that 3 mana to dig three deep and to keep all the best cards has always been worth it. Combined with the 5 artifacts we DO have, plus a nice suite of Flashback cards (Chainer's Edict, Forbidden Alchemy, Mystical Teachings) gives us nice value.
Lightning Bolt - This seems like an odd inclusion to 'odd card choices' list, but I initially didn't have it in the deck. 'Why would you play bolt when you have access to black removals?' 'You aren't going to kill someone with a bolt!'
1) It costs ONE MANA. And it can kills PLANESWALKERS! Anything it can kill is what you are afraid of (early game aggression).
2) Yes, I totally have.
Never leave home without Bolt.
Rakdos's Return - You win when this card resolves for X=3 or more. 'Dump your hand, kill your walker you just tapped out for.' Is one of the best possible scenarios. This deck can afford to play a few big, splashy spells. Speaking of which...
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - The deck needs to have wincons other than Thrax. If you build the entire deck just to resolve Thrax and protect him. The decks that can stop him will have a good chance to beat you. Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Liliana of the Veil make for fine 'win conditions' but only Nicol Bolas can truly end a game in 3 turns. Also he can blow up problem permanents and take creatures to use to block for himself. What's not to like! Also he can pitch to Force of Will!
Engineered Explosives - Survival of the Fittest, Earthcraft, Sylvan Library, Sword of What and Ever, Creature Swarms, Mana Elves, tokens, you name it. This card is awesome and can be played as we get Sunburst up to 3. Grixis normally has a problem with enchantments but this card answers the ones we care about most.
Underworld Connections - This card is Phyrexian Arena #2. It requires some setup, of course, and can get you blown out. If it DOESN'T though, the advantage is huge. Make sure to always fetch for a basic land to attach this to so your land doesn't get Wasteland'd
With Oloro, Ageless Ascetic out of the Duel Commander scene, I think that some aggro decks are going to make a resurgence in the metagame. I am actively looking to re-add Force Spike to my deck and Anger of the Gods as another sweeper.
Well, now that I bothered typing all of this up I think I have to make my own Thraximundar thread here sometime...
Did you consider Blightning? Seems like a good fit in your discard package.
No, Blighting is terrible in this deck. (Sadly )
It's Mind Rot with Lava Spike stapled to it... so what? We aren't going to win through damage most of the time. It also doesn't reveal their hand (information is important) and doesn't make them discard at random (Hymn to Tourach). It is a very weak 3 mana sorcery in a control deck.
1) It scales - you can blast a 5 card hand away from someone instantly if they tap out (or aren't blue).
2) It does more damage - it can hit planeswalkers who go above 3 loyalty and take them out immediately.
3) It fits better with the 'long game plan' - we're nearly always going to be casting it for a large X value - the Commander costs 7 mana so you can expect to always have around that amount most games, making Rakdos's Return devastating. On turn 3 I would much rather be reactive and stop an opponent from applying pressure than play Blightning
OH and one more thing - if I were to add a 3 mana sorcery that discarded cards that weren't my choice - I would play Stupor as it DOES get one card at random. That's important because it could get something that the opponent does not want to discard.
Hey Dan, how do you think Thraximundar fits into the current meta? I really want to build it, but Thraximundar decks always seem so ... clunky, I guess.
Also, what do you think about Order of Succession? Seems great in an almost creatureless build such as this. Any updates from Khans? I assume Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise could find a place here?
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personally, I think Thrax will work very fine in a creature heavy meta... it's seems clunky because tends to play slow grindy games, unless you disrupt them early enough and land Thrax and just protect the zombie assassin.
DTT will definitely take a spot in this one, but idk about TC.
I will never say that Thraximundar is a Tier 1 deck. He does sometimes have some consistency issues and has to survive getting to a large amount of mana before it can begin winning. However, it is my favorite deck and I have the whole list built in paper and have taken several first place finishes at tournaments with him. I would for sure rank him as Tier 1.5.
He does well versus decks like Narset, Enlightened Master, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, Griselbrand, or Zurgo Helmsmasher that, for the most part, try to go 'all-in' on a single creature. The entirety of the deck is answers and card advantage and Thraximundar is an edict on a stick so these decks are not difficult to defeat. I really tend to struggle with creature matchups. Despite what ninjajinx has experienced, Thraximundar decks do not have a lot of life to spare and don't always have a big enough sweeper on hand. Decks like Anafenza, the Foremost, Marath, Will of the Wild, and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant and Prossh, Skyraider of Kher really cause problems for the deck, but they aren't unbeatable. Control mirror matches for the most part are relatively evenly matched; the skill of each individual pilot and the power of cards drawn in the game really determine the outcome.
I do not like Order of Succesion. Thraximundar is one of our only win conditions so it's just a bad mind control that is unplayable if our general is out. I would rather play Treachery as it is 'free' or Gilded Drake as we can attack into it with Thraximundar. But I don't even want to play creature theft in this deck (except to Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker incidentally).
Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are both ridiculous and really warped how blue decks are constructed in Duel Commander. You'd be insane to not play both, especially in a three color deck with access to 9 fetches and plenty of deck filtering cards that then go to the graveyard.
Either way, here is my current list. It's evolved quite a bit since the last one. I'll work on formatting it later, just got off work.
I disagree with the above black gives thrax the best hand hate in the game which can help resolving him vs. Control. I also do not think you can say black is simply a worse color then white. Both colors have amqzing spot reoval white may be better at this but black certinally has better card draw and a 3 mana board wipe. I would honestly thrax is better in control heavy metas do to its hand hate abaility to generate card advantage and being able to cast its general for 0 via rooftop storm. In a creature heaveta i would agree with you since narset can win without having to interact with its opponent and has a stronger set of sweepers. Personally i have never liked decks like narset and wanderer that flip cards off the top of your deck since you have no control of what you find 80% of the time.
I will never say that Thraximundar is a Tier 1 deck. He does sometimes have some consistency issues and has to survive getting to a large amount of mana before it can begin winning. However, it is my favorite deck and I have the whole list built in paper and have taken several first place finishes at tournaments with him. I would for sure rank him as Tier 1.5.
I wanted so bad to make a competitive Thraxi, but came to the same conclusions.
I think overall, as a tricolored control deck, Narset is simply better. She swaps black for white, and that does make the overall list better. Narset is also an enabler on her own, unlike Thraxi who is just a kill.
I don't think this is the case. Black really is just a better color in this format than white - especially if you're pairing it with Blue and Red. Many of your disruption and card advantage engines are much better than those present in white. And, funnily enough, if Thraximundar ever plays versus Narset, it's normally not a difficult match. Thraxi as a commander nearly completely nullifies having Narset as a Commander with the edict effect.
Also, while Thrax can get the win easily just by swinging in, Narset can sometimes whiff on her own attacks, making her near useless for that turn. Thraximundar's attack phases are more consistent in that regard.
If this is a deck that suffers from a lack of sweepers, then would you consider running some of the red "sweepers" like Anger, Slagstorm, or Sudden Demise etc.? Maybe even Black Sun's Zenith/Consume the Meek? I do like that it matches up well vs Narset though, as that makes up a large part of my local meta.
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If this is a deck that suffers from a lack of sweepers, then would you consider running some of the red "sweepers" like Anger, Slagstorm, or Sudden Demise etc.? Maybe even Black Sun's Zenith/Consume the Meek? I do like that it matches up well vs Narset though, as that makes up a large part of my local meta.
They're absolutely cards that can be run in this deck if you feel the need to do so. The problem is that Pyroclasm and friends don't deal with cards like Anafenza, the Foremost who get to dodge the sweep based on their toughness. If anything, I would run Black Sun's Zenith as it can scale like Toxic Deluge does and doesn't cost you any life like Rolling Earthquake. There aren't yet enough creature decks in my local meta for me to consider running it yet.
I like the take on it, doesn't play big gamebreaker spells, but an array of answers, and emphasis on discard.
I don't like the 38 lands count, looks like it's way too few, however about 30 spells are 2 CC or less.
Alright, full disclosure. I asked ninjajinx so send me the Thraximundar list that beat his Anafenza deck at this tournament before the lists had been posted. Truly, tuned Anafenza lists and decks like it really beat up my Thrax list - especially when you get a 4/4 on turn 2 and follow it up with even more creatures. So I was pretty incredulous when he said that Thraximundar was consistently beating his Anafenza list. I wanted to see what he was doing differently.
And, I dislike being mean but this deck is my baby so I'm going to be very scathing.
1) NO LIGHTNING BOLT
2) The reason this Thraximundar build was beating Anafenza so handily is because it has removal up the wazoo. That's great! You have removal! Congrats. Go fight that hard control deck over there and let me know if you ever resolve that 7 drop sorcery in your command zone. Go on!
3) Off theme or unnecessary cards like Bribery, Solemn Simulacrum, Bitterblossom, Parallax Tide.
4) I love Ral Zarek to death but he is such a bad magic card for this deck. Ramp decks think he's cool. Where the Dack Fayden at?
5) No Tainted Pact. Running 5 Islands isn't going to save you from Blood Moon. Just go all in and don't let it resolve. Oh, right, your removal doesn't stop enchantments.
6) Blightning - Mogis, God of Slaughter called, he wants his deck ideas back.
7) Creatures.... why? Dualcaster Mage costs 1RR - yuck. Venser, Shaper Savant is aight but also meh at best and can't be abused (Riptide Laboratory), Dark Confidant and Notion Thief are both fine I suppose but this list isn't running Night of Souls' Betrayal which is way better.
8) Hilariously bad instant/sorcery choices like Stifle, Trickbind (we're not a tempo deck), Split Decision (What? Just run Muddle the Mixture... or a good counterspell), Lim-Dûl's Vault (Combo decks called, they want their digging piece back. Okay fine, this card is alright but I'm not a fan of card disadvantage and life loss in the same card only to set up a 'Top 5'), Slagstorm, Volcanic Fallout (more cards with RR in their cost, if you really want a small sweeper run Pyroclasm), Dissipate (so, a bad 3-mana counterspell?)
9) Lands. Needs to be 40. Needs to be Tainted Pact-able, needs to have way less lands that make B/R (Sulfurous Springs, Graven Cairns), and less CIPT lands that don't do anything (Crumbling Necropolis, Darkslick Shores)
Yes, the deck should also have Treasure Cruise as well. And really, the deck doesn't need theft effects. They're just a slot that doesn't need to be filled or considered. No Gilded Drake or Co.
The rest of the spells are decent. There are a few in there that I used to run but don't anymore that I won't chastise (Cyclonic Rift) because they're still decent in the deck.
Ok, that's out of my system. Sorry for the rant, everyone.
So this is a list tweaked for an aggro/midrange metagame. I read somewhere Manila was not very control. Hence combo and anti-aggro lists reaching top?
Anyway the lack of Lightning Bolt disturbs me greatly
edit:
In 3 weeks I will go to a pretty big tournament. I think metagame will be heavily blue and combo, I expect Narset, Rea 5C, Prossh, Animar, but also GAA4 and Geist.
I still don't know if I'll play Keranos or Thraximundar.
Any advices?
Well, yes, a full creature meta will be destroyed by removal.dec no matter what colors it is in. Problem is when you do run into combo/control decks removal.thrax falls flat on its face.
Play the assassin! Represent!
Eh, Wanderer is really fifty fifty. Tr to go 1 for 1 on all his early spells - it is hard to best good cascades but generally you out CA them if their ramp is completely stifled. And >most< wanderer decks don't have many creatures so countering cascades and then attacking through wanderer with thrax is a good way to take the clock back. It's all about that early game.
Surely Nin is the best choice for that meta? In a meta of control decks, Nin is the truest control deck with the most CA attached to her. Also, moon effects are good against 5C reanimator. Geist is probably the worst matchup of the decks mentioned here, but even that is manageable with the right draw.
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Surely Nin is the best choice for that meta? In a meta of control decks, Nin is the truest control deck with the most CA attached to her. Also, moon effects are good against 5C reanimator. Geist is probably the worst matchup of the decks mentioned here, but even that is manageable with the right draw.
Oh, of course Nin is the best choice, but everyone knows what you're up to so you lose the element of surprise. It would be way more fun to go in and assassinate people
Thraximundar usually prompts a read, a brow furrowing, and the mental exclamation from your opponent of 'What does he know that I don't!?' Because, on paper, Thraximundar does not appear to be playable in Duel Commander at all (that mana cost!)
But yeah if you really just want to win at all costs play a tuned Nin list and practice, practice, practice.
I play on MTGO so 1v1 is normal banlist. In B decks, I love Mind Twist.
Unfortunatly Mind Twist is banned in French. We play Rakdos's Return instead. I wonder if Mind Shatter would be playable. In Griselbrand that's pretty good with Boseiju to wreck any MU. But Griselbrand decks play ramp spells. So I guess it's just a cool idea, but not competitive.
Rakdos Return does kill walkers nicely. Mind Shatter is a decent card but we get to play Cruel Ultimatum which is better for a similar mana cost.
Cruel sadly might be getting the axe for Ugin soon though...
Did you test Ugin, the Spirit Dragon? I was wondering what to cut to enter that beast.
Without any test I think he'll completly rock against any deck.
On FTF topic, are there other cards from it that are interesting?
Oh boy I've wanted to do this for a long time.
Look at Ugin
Now look at Thrax
Now look back to Ugin
Now look at Ugin's second ability
That's right, it's a scaleable boardwipe
Now look back at Thrax
His converted mana cost is 7
Now look back to Ugin's second ability
He can do it for -6 and still have 1 loyalty left over
Now look back to Thrax
He's still on board, swinging at your opponents' empty board
Now look back to Ugin
Give him a high five for clearing the way
Assassins for life
I personally love Rakdos Charm, and think it's very strong. Unfortunately I'm not sure what to cut for it. What is so weak in the list currently that it should be replaced by Rakdos Charm?
Side Note: How is the matchup vs 5C reanimator? It looks pretty even on paper, but that deck does ridiculous things in practice.
I would be wary of adding more 7+ mana bombs. This isn't regular EDH, and while Karn is powerful, Nicol Bolas is equally, if not more so. Ugin also functions similarly, except he acts as scale-able boardwipe (as Dan so trendily pointed out), which is far superior to any of Karn's ability's.
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Rakdos Charm: is a fine card if and only if your meta is overrun by graveyard decks (not counting decks that run the delve spells). The artifact destruction mode is rendered useless by the superior Crosis's Charm and/or Counterspells and the damage mode will rarely be relevant. You might blow out a Kiki/Scripts combo once every 1000 games or something. The instant speed graveyard exile is nice BUT it uses a card from your hand for no additional benefit. Bojuka Bog is a land and will produce mana later. Nihil Spellbomb cycles itself for a new card. It's average at best but the most likely scenario will be that you wish you had a removal or counterspell when the charm is in your hand.
Karn Liberated is a fine card in 'big' control decks that don't get to run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. The thing that you have to consider is that Bolas goes UP with loyalty to victory in three turns while still affecting the board, whereas Karn only goes DOWN to affect the board, and UP to victory. Bolas is usually removing an extremely problematic permanent from the board upon his being cast which allows you to take control of the game and he still has plenty of loyalty. Karn dies to bolt upon exiling a permanent. Karn also can't pitch to Force of Will.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is superior than Karn in this deck in every way. It is a mass colored removal in a deck that has problems with resolved non-creature permanents. It goes UP to victory, just like Bolas. And it can 'wrath' for 6 of its loyalty counters without dying nor exiling Thraximundar. It might have been possible to justify Karn in Thrax prior to Ugin being printed but now it is impossible.
1x Thraximundar
Lands (36)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Command Tower
1x Crumbling Necropolis
1x Desolate Lighthouse
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Ghost Quarter
6x Island
3x Mountain
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Shivan Reef
1x Sulfur Falls
5x Swamp
1x Tainted Peak
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of Deceit
1x Temple of Epiphany
1x Temple of Malice
1x Terramorphic Expanse
1x Underground River
1x Vivid Crag
1x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Marsh
Trinket Mage Package (3 lands, 5 artifacts, 1 creature)
1x Great Furnace
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Expedition map
1x sol ring
1x engineered explosives
1x nihil spellbomb
1x pithing needle
1x trinket mage
1x Counterflux
1x Counterspell
1x Hinder
1x Mana Leak
1x Mental Misstep
1x Misdirection
1x Negate
1x Pact of Negation
1x Spell Crumple
1x Spell Snare
1x Swan Song
1x Wild Ricochet
Spot removal (2 instants, 2 sorceries, 1 creature)
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Terminate
1x Dreadbore
1x Slave of Bolas
1x Olivia Voldaren
Hand disruption (4 sorceries)
1x Cruel Ultimatum
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Thoughtseize
Card draw (1 enchantment, 4 instants, 2 creatures, 6 sorceries)
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Fact or Fiction
1x impulse
1x Opportunity
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Bloodgift Demon
1x Notion Thief
1x Night's Whisper
1x Ponder
1x Preordain
1x Read the Bones
1x Sign in Blood
1x Tidings
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Volcanic Fallout
1x Inferno Titan
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Black Sun's Zenith
1x Mizzium Mortars
1x Pyroclasm
1x Toxic Deluge
Tutors and Utility (7 instants, 1 sorcery)
1x Crosis's Charm
1x Grixis Charm
1x Izzet Charm
1x Muddle the Mixture
1x Mystical Teachings
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Diabolic Tutor
Mana rocks (4)
1x chromatic lantern
1x dimir signet
1x rakdos signet
1x izzet signet
1 Commander
39 Lands
1 enchantment
9 artifacts
5 creatures
18 sorceries
27 instants
Making a Thraximundar control deck for 1v1 play, the gameplan being stall until i can play thrax with counterspell or removal backup and start swinging for commander damage. I know that the land base is particularly weak and shocks will be the first thing i add, replacing the vivid cycle lands. Are there any cards in the deck that seem particularly weak, and any suggestions for replacements?
However, if you're practicing on paper (and aren't signed up to use Cockatrice), I highly recommend printing off proxies of a tuned Thraximundar list and giving it a spin. It's what I did when I started the deck as I slowly replaced the proxies with real cards.
My thoughts on your list currently:
-Sol Ring is banned in Duel Commander (the 1v1 format). If you are just playing with the multiplayer list, it is legal.
-Olivia Voldaren is not great in this deck - if you want to run a mind control effect in this deck, run Treachery. It untaps your lands, leaving counter magic open and you really only ever need to steal one creature.
-Hinder does not tuck Commanders in Duel Commander. This is fine for multiplayer though.
-You will never have enough cards in hand to make full use of Reliquary Tower. You will be spending those cards to control your opponent.
-Wild Ricochet is very difficult to make work well. You might blow someone out by redirecting their Ancestral Vision to you but at that point, they're probably going to be able to stop you. A card that narrow that costs 4 mana does not have a place in the deck.
-Replace Tidings with Jace's Ingenuity. Instant speed advantage.
-Notion Thief is a card I really wanted to work, but like Wild Ricochet is too cute and never resolves, lives, or matters when you want it to. Someone who has enough mana to draw 3+ cards also has enough mana to kill or counter your Thief.
-Grixis Charm is REALLY BAD but Crosis's Charm is amazing.
-Replace Diabolic Tutor with Demonic Tutor.
-Don't forget to include Chainer's Edict and Forbidden Alchemy. They're very good cards and this deck is usually in a position where they can comfortably flashback them.
-Drop Cruel Ultimatum - if you're not playing a perfect manabase, you will never have the right colors/untapped lands to play this when it matters. I'd replace it with more spot hand hate, like Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress.
-I've never been a fan of the Trinket Mage package but I also have no experience in using it so if it does well in your testing that's fine.
-Where's ROOFTOP STORM!?!!?!?! (Keep in mind general tax still applies here. But casting Thrax for 0, 2, 4, 6 colorless is really nice)
I can post my Duel Commander list here, if you would like. Let me know!
1 Thraximundar
Lands: (40)
Fetches (9):
1 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
Tri Color (4):
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Command Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
Dual Color (12):
1 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
Blue Lands (4):
1 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tolaria West
Black Lands (5):
1 Urborg, Tomg of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Wasteland
1 Dust Bowl
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Academy Ruins
1 Temple of the False God
1 Cavern of Souls
Instants (31):
Counterspells (13):
1 Memory Lapse
1 Pact of Negation
1 Force of Will
1 Counterflux
1 Cryptic Command
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Remand
1 Miscalculation
1 Izzet Charm
1 Logic Knot
1 Mana Leak
1 Condescend
Removals (8):
1 Fire // Ice
1 Crosis's Charm
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Far // Away
1 Go for the Throat
1 Electrolyze
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
Card Advantage/Quality (7):
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Impulse
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tainted Pact
Sorceries (12):
Hand Disruption (5):
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Rakdos's Return
Card Advantage/Quality (3):
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Preordain
1 Night's Whisper
Mass Removal (2):
1 Damnation
1 Toxic Deluge
Spot Removal (1):
1 Chainer's Edict
Tutors (1):
1 Demonic Tutor
Planeswalkers (5):
1 Jace Beleren
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
Artifacts (5):
Mana Fixing/Ramp (4):
1 Izzet Signet
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Dimir Signet
1 Talisman of Dominance
Removal (1):
1 Engineered Explosives
Creatures (3):
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Enchantments (3):
Card Advantage (2):
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Underworld Connections
BOOM BABY (1):
1 ROOFTOP STORM
Odd-Card Explanations:
Academy Ruins - I am willing to give up a colored land slot for this card. There are many draw, then discard effects (Dack Fayden, Thirst for Knowledge, Forbidden Alchemy, Izzet Charm) in the deck that allow you to dump Engineered Explosives or Chromatic Lantern to your yard, and this gives you the utility to re-use them. Getting Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or Chromatic Lantern out also makes it worth using.
Thirst for Knowledge - Usually this card shines in way heavier artifact builds. I find that 3 mana to dig three deep and to keep all the best cards has always been worth it. Combined with the 5 artifacts we DO have, plus a nice suite of Flashback cards (Chainer's Edict, Forbidden Alchemy, Mystical Teachings) gives us nice value.
Lightning Bolt - This seems like an odd inclusion to 'odd card choices' list, but I initially didn't have it in the deck. 'Why would you play bolt when you have access to black removals?' 'You aren't going to kill someone with a bolt!'
1) It costs ONE MANA. And it can kills PLANESWALKERS! Anything it can kill is what you are afraid of (early game aggression).
2) Yes, I totally have.
Never leave home without Bolt.
Rakdos's Return - You win when this card resolves for X=3 or more. 'Dump your hand, kill your walker you just tapped out for.' Is one of the best possible scenarios. This deck can afford to play a few big, splashy spells. Speaking of which...
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker - The deck needs to have wincons other than Thrax. If you build the entire deck just to resolve Thrax and protect him. The decks that can stop him will have a good chance to beat you. Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Liliana of the Veil make for fine 'win conditions' but only Nicol Bolas can truly end a game in 3 turns. Also he can blow up problem permanents and take creatures to use to block for himself. What's not to like! Also he can pitch to Force of Will!
Pact of Negation - People don't like this free counterspell because it costs five. You're trying to resolve Thraximundar and Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. This card is fine.
Engineered Explosives - Survival of the Fittest, Earthcraft, Sylvan Library, Sword of What and Ever, Creature Swarms, Mana Elves, tokens, you name it. This card is awesome and can be played as we get Sunburst up to 3. Grixis normally has a problem with enchantments but this card answers the ones we care about most.
Underworld Connections - This card is Phyrexian Arena #2. It requires some setup, of course, and can get you blown out. If it DOESN'T though, the advantage is huge. Make sure to always fetch for a basic land to attach this to so your land doesn't get Wasteland'd
Temple of the False God - Can allow SURPRISE Turn 5 Thraximundar with a Signet/Lantern OR Turn 5 Rooftop Storm -> Thrax. This land is worth in Thrax.
Tolaria West - This card can find Pact of Negation, Engineered Explosives, Ancestral Vision (do this on turn 4 so you can suspend as well), or any of the lands you need right now (Cavern of Souls, Dust Bowl, Wasteland etc)
With Oloro, Ageless Ascetic out of the Duel Commander scene, I think that some aggro decks are going to make a resurgence in the metagame. I am actively looking to re-add Force Spike to my deck and Anger of the Gods as another sweeper.
Well, now that I bothered typing all of this up I think I have to make my own Thraximundar thread here sometime...
Did you consider Blightning? Seems like a good fit in your discard package.
No, Blighting is terrible in this deck. (Sadly
It's Mind Rot with Lava Spike stapled to it... so what? We aren't going to win through damage most of the time. It also doesn't reveal their hand (information is important) and doesn't make them discard at random (Hymn to Tourach). It is a very weak 3 mana sorcery in a control deck.
Blightning plays much better in sligh or denial decks such as Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch or Mogis, God of Slaughter
Rakdos's Return is much better than it for a few reasons:
1) It scales - you can blast a 5 card hand away from someone instantly if they tap out (or aren't blue).
2) It does more damage - it can hit planeswalkers who go above 3 loyalty and take them out immediately.
3) It fits better with the 'long game plan' - we're nearly always going to be casting it for a large X value - the Commander costs 7 mana so you can expect to always have around that amount most games, making Rakdos's Return devastating. On turn 3 I would much rather be reactive and stop an opponent from applying pressure than play Blightning
OH and one more thing - if I were to add a 3 mana sorcery that discarded cards that weren't my choice - I would play Stupor as it DOES get one card at random. That's important because it could get something that the opponent does not want to discard.
Also, what do you think about Order of Succession? Seems great in an almost creatureless build such as this. Any updates from Khans? I assume Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise could find a place here?
DTT will definitely take a spot in this one, but idk about TC.
He does well versus decks like Narset, Enlightened Master, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, Griselbrand, or Zurgo Helmsmasher that, for the most part, try to go 'all-in' on a single creature. The entirety of the deck is answers and card advantage and Thraximundar is an edict on a stick so these decks are not difficult to defeat. I really tend to struggle with creature matchups. Despite what ninjajinx has experienced, Thraximundar decks do not have a lot of life to spare and don't always have a big enough sweeper on hand. Decks like Anafenza, the Foremost, Marath, Will of the Wild, and Sidisi, Brood Tyrant and Prossh, Skyraider of Kher really cause problems for the deck, but they aren't unbeatable. Control mirror matches for the most part are relatively evenly matched; the skill of each individual pilot and the power of cards drawn in the game really determine the outcome.
I do not like Order of Succesion. Thraximundar is one of our only win conditions so it's just a bad mind control that is unplayable if our general is out. I would rather play Treachery as it is 'free' or Gilded Drake as we can attack into it with Thraximundar. But I don't even want to play creature theft in this deck (except to Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker incidentally).
Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are both ridiculous and really warped how blue decks are constructed in Duel Commander. You'd be insane to not play both, especially in a three color deck with access to 9 fetches and plenty of deck filtering cards that then go to the graveyard.
Either way, here is my current list. It's evolved quite a bit since the last one. I'll work on formatting it later, just got off work.
1 Thraximundar
Land - 40
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Arid Mesa
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Dust Bowl
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 City of Brass
1 Mana Confluence
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Temple of Deceit
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Shivan Reef
1 Tolaria West
1 Underground River
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Command Tower
1 Snapcaster Mage
Enchantments - 3
1 Rooftop Storm
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
Sorceries - 17
1 Deep Analysis
1 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Serum Visions
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Damnation
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Rakdos's Return
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
1 Night's Whisper
Instant - 30
1 Force Spike
1 Miscalculation
1 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterflux
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Mystical Teachings
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tainted Pact
1 Dismember
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Izzet Charm
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Dig Through Time
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Crosis's Charm
1 Condescend
1 Spell Snare
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Force of Will
1 Pact of Negation
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Memory Lapse
1 Electrolyze
1 Brainstorm
1 Far // Away
1 Fire // Ice
1 Remand
1 Go for the Throat
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Chromatic Lantern
Planeswalkers - 5
1 Dack Fayden
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Jace Beleren
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Edit: Formatting updated
I don't think this is the case. Black really is just a better color in this format than white - especially if you're pairing it with Blue and Red. Many of your disruption and card advantage engines are much better than those present in white. And, funnily enough, if Thraximundar ever plays versus Narset, it's normally not a difficult match. Thraxi as a commander nearly completely nullifies having Narset as a Commander with the edict effect.
Also, while Thrax can get the win easily just by swinging in, Narset can sometimes whiff on her own attacks, making her near useless for that turn. Thraximundar's attack phases are more consistent in that regard.
They're absolutely cards that can be run in this deck if you feel the need to do so. The problem is that Pyroclasm and friends don't deal with cards like Anafenza, the Foremost who get to dodge the sweep based on their toughness. If anything, I would run Black Sun's Zenith as it can scale like Toxic Deluge does and doesn't cost you any life like Rolling Earthquake. There aren't yet enough creature decks in my local meta for me to consider running it yet.
Thraximundar Playlist
Alright, full disclosure. I asked ninjajinx so send me the Thraximundar list that beat his Anafenza deck at this tournament before the lists had been posted. Truly, tuned Anafenza lists and decks like it really beat up my Thrax list - especially when you get a 4/4 on turn 2 and follow it up with even more creatures. So I was pretty incredulous when he said that Thraximundar was consistently beating his Anafenza list. I wanted to see what he was doing differently.
And, I dislike being mean but this deck is my baby so I'm going to be very scathing.
1) NO LIGHTNING BOLT
2) The reason this Thraximundar build was beating Anafenza so handily is because it has removal up the wazoo. That's great! You have removal! Congrats. Go fight that hard control deck over there and let me know if you ever resolve that 7 drop sorcery in your command zone. Go on!
3) Off theme or unnecessary cards like Bribery, Solemn Simulacrum, Bitterblossom, Parallax Tide.
4) I love Ral Zarek to death but he is such a bad magic card for this deck. Ramp decks think he's cool. Where the Dack Fayden at?
5) No Tainted Pact. Running 5 Islands isn't going to save you from Blood Moon. Just go all in and don't let it resolve. Oh, right, your removal doesn't stop enchantments.
6) Blightning - Mogis, God of Slaughter called, he wants his deck ideas back.
7) Creatures.... why? Dualcaster Mage costs 1RR - yuck. Venser, Shaper Savant is aight but also meh at best and can't be abused (Riptide Laboratory), Dark Confidant and Notion Thief are both fine I suppose but this list isn't running Night of Souls' Betrayal which is way better.
8) Hilariously bad instant/sorcery choices like Stifle, Trickbind (we're not a tempo deck), Split Decision (What? Just run Muddle the Mixture... or a good counterspell), Lim-Dûl's Vault (Combo decks called, they want their digging piece back. Okay fine, this card is alright but I'm not a fan of card disadvantage and life loss in the same card only to set up a 'Top 5'), Slagstorm, Volcanic Fallout (more cards with RR in their cost, if you really want a small sweeper run Pyroclasm), Dissipate (so, a bad 3-mana counterspell?)
9) Lands. Needs to be 40. Needs to be Tainted Pact-able, needs to have way less lands that make B/R (Sulfurous Springs, Graven Cairns), and less CIPT lands that don't do anything (Crumbling Necropolis, Darkslick Shores)
Yes, the deck should also have Treasure Cruise as well. And really, the deck doesn't need theft effects. They're just a slot that doesn't need to be filled or considered. No Gilded Drake or Co.
The rest of the spells are decent. There are a few in there that I used to run but don't anymore that I won't chastise (Cyclonic Rift) because they're still decent in the deck.
Ok, that's out of my system. Sorry for the rant, everyone.
Well, yes, a full creature meta will be destroyed by removal.dec no matter what colors it is in. Problem is when you do run into combo/control decks removal.thrax falls flat on its face.
Play the assassin! Represent!
Eh, Wanderer is really fifty fifty. Tr to go 1 for 1 on all his early spells - it is hard to best good cascades but generally you out CA them if their ramp is completely stifled. And >most< wanderer decks don't have many creatures so countering cascades and then attacking through wanderer with thrax is a good way to take the clock back. It's all about that early game.
Also overload counterflux relevant in this MU
Oh, of course Nin is the best choice, but everyone knows what you're up to so you lose the element of surprise. It would be way more fun to go in and
Thraximundar usually prompts a read, a brow furrowing, and the mental exclamation from your opponent of 'What does he know that I don't!?' Because, on paper, Thraximundar does not appear to be playable in Duel Commander at all (that mana cost!)
But yeah if you really just want to win at all costs play a tuned Nin list and practice, practice, practice.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Rakdos Return does kill walkers nicely. Mind Shatter is a decent card but we get to play Cruel Ultimatum which is better for a similar mana cost.
Cruel sadly might be getting the axe for Ugin soon though...
Oh boy I've wanted to do this for a long time.
Look at Ugin
Now look at Thrax
Now look back to Ugin
Now look at Ugin's second ability
That's right, it's a scaleable boardwipe
Now look back at Thrax
His converted mana cost is 7
Now look back to Ugin's second ability
He can do it for -6 and still have 1 loyalty left over
Now look back to Thrax
He's still on board, swinging at your opponents' empty board
Now look back to Ugin
Give him a high five for clearing the way
Assassins for life
...Just in case we need a reference
Side Note: How is the matchup vs 5C reanimator? It looks pretty even on paper, but that deck does ridiculous things in practice.
I would be wary of adding more 7+ mana bombs. This isn't regular EDH, and while Karn is powerful, Nicol Bolas is equally, if not more so. Ugin also functions similarly, except he acts as scale-able boardwipe (as Dan so trendily pointed out), which is far superior to any of Karn's ability's.
Rakdos Charm: is a fine card if and only if your meta is overrun by graveyard decks (not counting decks that run the delve spells). The artifact destruction mode is rendered useless by the superior Crosis's Charm and/or Counterspells and the damage mode will rarely be relevant. You might blow out a Kiki/Scripts combo once every 1000 games or something. The instant speed graveyard exile is nice BUT it uses a card from your hand for no additional benefit. Bojuka Bog is a land and will produce mana later. Nihil Spellbomb cycles itself for a new card. It's average at best but the most likely scenario will be that you wish you had a removal or counterspell when the charm is in your hand.
Karn Liberated is a fine card in 'big' control decks that don't get to run Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker. The thing that you have to consider is that Bolas goes UP with loyalty to victory in three turns while still affecting the board, whereas Karn only goes DOWN to affect the board, and UP to victory. Bolas is usually removing an extremely problematic permanent from the board upon his being cast which allows you to take control of the game and he still has plenty of loyalty. Karn dies to bolt upon exiling a permanent. Karn also can't pitch to Force of Will.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is superior than Karn in this deck in every way. It is a mass colored removal in a deck that has problems with resolved non-creature permanents. It goes UP to victory, just like Bolas. And it can 'wrath' for 6 of its loyalty counters without dying nor exiling Thraximundar. It might have been possible to justify Karn in Thrax prior to Ugin being printed but now it is impossible.
And those are my thoughts
And, do you have a multiplayer list?