@ 3drinks
I've looked at your multiplayer list and I have some criticisms based on my experience with Kaalia. I wrote a multi-player Primer that I had posted about earlier in your thread for commentary, but the link to that is in my signature.
MLD backed by Kaalia is a more efficient kill system than you think. More often than not, following up Kaalia with any form of MLD spells the end of the game. Even if Kaalia only ever puts one ADD target into play tapped and attacking that is usually enough board presence to kill the table. The Kaalia list I've written is heavy on the removal side, so the board is expected to be clear when the MLD spell hits and this expectation is usually met with great consistency.
I think the Reanimation package is not as efficient as a Hate-Bear and Stax package. If the overall goal of Kaalia, and which I understand to be your primary perspective on Kaalia, is to create an environment where you can safely cast, protect, and attack with Kaalia than I think Hate-Bears and Stax strategies is where it's at. Hate bears attract removal and attention to themselves, since they hinder opponents' game plans, leaving Kaalia ironically to be the lesser threat. The same is true for Stax elements (I do use the term 'Stax' pretty liberally to refer to any resource restricting card there is). When an opponent is holding a tutor spell in order to find a removal piece or a combo piece and your [CARD}Aven Mindcensor[/CARD] is censoring them, they have to rely on top-decks or raw card advantage to dig into a removal spell in order to execute their game plan. I explain this philosophy in my Kaalia thread, so I would be grateful for you to review it.
In order to optimally play stax, one needs a firm commitment to the strat. This requires substantial deck slots, and while effective, will naturally diminish the Kaalia aspect of the deck. As your A/D/D count goes down, indeed you're now asking yourself "why am I playing Kaalia?" and you begin looking for more efficient options (usually in the form of big Zurgo, Alesha, or Akiri/Tymna). Some sacrifices must be made of one wants to play this game plan, which is why I took a turn away from Stax and went into "cmc circumvention" - whether that be via reanimation or our legendary elvish piper.
Years ago the Kaalia --> MLD plan was solid if not exemplary, but as the game ages, so to do the quality of efficient removal. We all know just how fragile Kaalia is, and it's because of that, I feel, a geddon just won't get us enough mileage in a multiplayer game. Look at my list and the number of 1cmc answers. Imagine in a 3way game the odds of 1 person, post geddon with land + answer and...well, I'm not even playing all the best. It's not like we're playing Sigarda, hah.
But that said, you could replace decree of pain with a Wildfire, although you'd likely want another 2 - 4 rocks to smooth it over. YMMV.
You put Basandra back in after all these years. I guess shutting down spells during combat is very useful these days.
Only in multiplayer, but note it's wording as once you're in "beginning of combat" casting spells is turned off, until you pass through the "end of combat" step. It also has protection from 40% of the colour pie under Fellowship. Forcing certain creatures (lookin' at you Baral, Talrand...and similar...) to attack is worthwhile. Doesn't matter if they attack me or not, forcing these guys to attack likely ends in them not surviving combat. Which works out pretty well for us. The other part is being five cmc, that's kinda a sweet spot. She's hard castable but also isn't such a bad deploy off Kaalia's ability.
Worth noting that I wouldn't play this in 1v1 since we'd play Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation here to find the card we need to end the game right there. Basandra prevents casting such a tutour in response to Kaalia's ability.
You put Basandra back in after all these years. I guess shutting down spells during combat is very useful these days.
Only in multiplayer, but note it's wording as once you're in "beginning of combat" casting spells is turned off, until you pass through the "end of combat" step.
Sorry, I was not clear. I'm aware that "combat" encompasses the beginning and end steps of combat. Basandra would prevent instant speed removal or other effects. It generally does not matter to us, since we just want to protect Kaalia.
Are you going to be able to test your multiplayer deck on MTGO or paper to see how it works against real decks?
You put Basandra back in after all these years. I guess shutting down spells during combat is very useful these days.
Only in multiplayer, but note it's wording as once you're in "beginning of combat" casting spells is turned off, until you pass through the "end of combat" step.
Sorry, I was not clear. I'm aware that "combat" encompasses the beginning and end steps of combat. Basandra would prevent instant speed removal or other effects. It generally does not matter to us, since we just want to protect Kaalia.
Are you going to be able to test your multiplayer deck on MTGO or paper to see how it works against real decks?
Only on paper tbh. I recently cashed out of the online client for a tidy little sum based on not spending near enough time on it to justify maintaining that collection.
Are you going to be able to test your multiplayer deck on MTGO or paper to see how it works against real decks?
Only on paper tbh. I recently cashed out of the online client for a tidy little sum based on not spending near enough time on it to justify maintaining that collection.
Paper is fine. I know you previously didn't like multiplayer, but it would be nice to hear how your multiplayer deck does at your local scene. I also look forward to your complaints about people who can't assess threats correctly. lol
Are you going to be able to test your multiplayer deck on MTGO or paper to see how it works against real decks?
Only on paper tbh. I recently cashed out of the online client for a tidy little sum based on not spending near enough time on it to justify maintaining that collection.
Paper is fine. I know you previously didn't like multiplayer, but it would be nice to hear how your multiplayer deck does at your local scene. I also look forward to your complaints about people who can't assess threats correctly. lol
Gah, don't get me started on poor threat assessment haha. "No, let's not target the Memnarch with a Gauntlet of Power, nonono, Kaalia might play something next turn..."
I alreay made some room for Grand abolitioner, the grifing, stranglhold and warrs toll and I will be thinking what to cut for the other cards
Yeah, the thing with Stax is that sure the pieces are very strong (I myself like me some 3sphere in most decks) but it will very easily dilute your game plan such that you're playing less of what you wanted, and more of "piss the table off" cards. Which is fine if that's your thing; I really don't want to give people more of an incentive to throw hate Kaalia's way. Just let me play my Lord of the Void in peace... What's the worst that could happen...?
I understand, but..... when I play 1vs1 my standard non-stax list works perfectly fine and my winrate is absurd even when I do not use any combo or hand disruption effects that would be advisable for a more competitive 1v1 EDH decklist.
The thing is that in multiplayer I am always the "enemy" or at least is my perception, it seems the other players seems to think that even 1 creature kaalia have is too much, so even if I hardcast something I am being targeted.
In my playgroup when the table is 3-4 players, normally the agro is going to the people with more creature presense, I wont go full STAX because is not my game, but some cards as the abolitioner, the grifin, the orbs, the aven mindcensor or the enchants seems to be good enought to help me protect my plan, with or without kaalia.
EDIT: I will try to explain myself better, in a 3-4 ppl table I am often in the situation where I have Kaalia and one fattie or just one fattie.
I play things like apostle's blessing and faith's shield because I can protect my stuff from removal, not always kaalia but avavyn or iona are my main targets.
My plan adding some stax cards is to help me develop my plan with more assurance, we dont have counterspells, so the way we protect our plan is by counting in our opponents bad draws or having some reacting spells like the ones I use.
war's toll makes the opponents get tapped if they play anything, so, you want to play a removal on kaalia? ok, but all your lands will be tapped, if you drop a dude.. all your lands will be tapped, so I will be able to cast freely my stuff.
Stranglehold is a removal bait, I choose all day they spend the removal for enchants on it rather than my dragon tempest or necropotence, not to mention that the effect is asymetrical so THEY dont get to search in libraries and not take extra turns.
Rule of law is another dont mess with me kind of card, Kaalia doesnt need to cast more than one spell each turn, is shuts off combos, and many threats.
The birds are just awesome in the 3cmc, they shuts tutors, fetchs and triggered abilities like acidic slime in a instant speed , and because they are creatures they will be acting as another removal bait and if they dont, wel they are still flying 2/1 bodies.
The orbs also gives us 'tranquility' I want my opponents to spend their mana developing their game plan but not disturbing mine, so if they can untap only a single land each turn they will be forced to think carefully what they do with the mana, will they hold mana for removal or they will be casting their general?
Alexev, if you want some more Stax cards, try Defense Grid.
I tried.. but... is not asymetric, I dont want ppl casting stuf at my turn but I also dont want to pay 4 mana for a path to exile in my opponents turn.
Hi, I have actually a new decklist that has been working very good for me against a wide variety of decks and it does not includes any "combos" so is actualy fun to play and fun to play against.
The thing is, vs some decks, like control I need to tutor things and I have not yet aquire a vampiric tutor or demonic tutor , so I wonder how bad is Liliana Vess.
Hi, I have actually a new decklist that has been working very good for me against a wide variety of decks and it does not includes any "combos" so is actualy fun to play and fun to play against.
The thing is, vs some decks, like control I need to tutor things and I have not yet aquire a vampiric tutor or demonic tutor , so I wonder how bad is Liliana Vess.
BTW, my post is here just in case you want to give some extra input
Liliana Vess is pretty poor, tbh. I'd even play Diabolic Tutor over it. It's just........bleh. Expedition Map is pretty decent though, nothing wrong with that because it fetches nonbasics.
Yes I know she is pretty bad and I do not run it, I neither run Diabolic tutor because the 4cmc is just awfull, my 4cmc are enchants and certain utility dorks
Yes I know she is pretty bad and I do not run it, I neither run Diabolic tutor because the 4cmc is just awfull, my 4cmc are enchants and certain utility dorks
If you wanted a budget alternative; I've been a fan of Razaketh's Rite in the baseline deck, mainly because unlike diabolic, this card isn't dead so early on. Just my two cents.
Yes I know she is pretty bad and I do not run it, I neither run Diabolic tutor because the 4cmc is just awfull, my 4cmc are enchants and certain utility dorks
If you wanted a budget alternative; I've been a fan of Razaketh's Rite in the baseline deck, mainly because unlike diabolic, this card isn't dead so early on. Just my two cents.
I don't really like it a lot, I am thinking using insidious dreams (not for combo, just tutoring)
Yes I know she is pretty bad and I do not run it, I neither run Diabolic tutor because the 4cmc is just awfull, my 4cmc are enchants and certain utility dorks
If you wanted a budget alternative; I've been a fan of Razaketh's Rite in the baseline deck, mainly because unlike diabolic, this card isn't dead so early on. Just my two cents.
I don't really like it a lot, I am thinking using insidious dreams (not for combo, just tutoring)
To be fair, Tainted Pact requires building in a certain way. My decks are set up to use it (one of each basic, one of each snow basic, and a wastes - seven basics so I can have plenty of lands to not get Wasteland'd). Consultation does have a non-zero percent chance of losing the game on cast (if the named card is in the top six). I'd still play them, but these are real concerns that some players have justified in staying away from them. YMMV.
I have. But if @Alexev is a bit budget minded, Grim Tutour is not where he wants to be. I bought it, it's served me well. But that is a serious investment that may not feel completely worth the cash. I find myself forcing XB just to make sure I can get some mileage from it lol.
I've looked at your multiplayer list and I have some criticisms based on my experience with Kaalia. I wrote a multi-player Primer that I had posted about earlier in your thread for commentary, but the link to that is in my signature.
MLD backed by Kaalia is a more efficient kill system than you think. More often than not, following up Kaalia with any form of MLD spells the end of the game. Even if Kaalia only ever puts one ADD target into play tapped and attacking that is usually enough board presence to kill the table. The Kaalia list I've written is heavy on the removal side, so the board is expected to be clear when the MLD spell hits and this expectation is usually met with great consistency.
I think the Reanimation package is not as efficient as a Hate-Bear and Stax package. If the overall goal of Kaalia, and which I understand to be your primary perspective on Kaalia, is to create an environment where you can safely cast, protect, and attack with Kaalia than I think Hate-Bears and Stax strategies is where it's at. Hate bears attract removal and attention to themselves, since they hinder opponents' game plans, leaving Kaalia ironically to be the lesser threat. The same is true for Stax elements (I do use the term 'Stax' pretty liberally to refer to any resource restricting card there is). When an opponent is holding a tutor spell in order to find a removal piece or a combo piece and your [CARD}Aven Mindcensor[/CARD] is censoring them, they have to rely on top-decks or raw card advantage to dig into a removal spell in order to execute their game plan. I explain this philosophy in my Kaalia thread, so I would be grateful for you to review it.
UB Dralnu, Lich Lord
RBW [Primer]-Kaalia of the Vast
BUG [Primer]-Tasigur, the Golden Fang
GWU [Primer]-Arcades, the Strategist
WUB Primer-Aminatou, the Fateshifter
UBR Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Years ago the Kaalia --> MLD plan was solid if not exemplary, but as the game ages, so to do the quality of efficient removal. We all know just how fragile Kaalia is, and it's because of that, I feel, a geddon just won't get us enough mileage in a multiplayer game. Look at my list and the number of 1cmc answers. Imagine in a 3way game the odds of 1 person, post geddon with land + answer and...well, I'm not even playing all the best. It's not like we're playing Sigarda, hah.
But that said, you could replace decree of pain with a Wildfire, although you'd likely want another 2 - 4 rocks to smooth it over. YMMV.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You put Basandra back in after all these years. I guess shutting down spells during combat is very useful these days.
Only in multiplayer, but note it's wording as once you're in "beginning of combat" casting spells is turned off, until you pass through the "end of combat" step. It also has protection from 40% of the colour pie under Fellowship. Forcing certain creatures (lookin' at you Baral, Talrand...and similar...) to attack is worthwhile. Doesn't matter if they attack me or not, forcing these guys to attack likely ends in them not surviving combat. Which works out pretty well for us. The other part is being five cmc, that's kinda a sweet spot. She's hard castable but also isn't such a bad deploy off Kaalia's ability.
Worth noting that I wouldn't play this in 1v1 since we'd play Tainted Pact/Demonic Consultation here to find the card we need to end the game right there. Basandra prevents casting such a tutour in response to Kaalia's ability.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Sorry, I was not clear. I'm aware that "combat" encompasses the beginning and end steps of combat. Basandra would prevent instant speed removal or other effects. It generally does not matter to us, since we just want to protect Kaalia.
Are you going to be able to test your multiplayer deck on MTGO or paper to see how it works against real decks?
Only on paper tbh. I recently cashed out of the online client for a tidy little sum based on not spending near enough time on it to justify maintaining that collection.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Paper is fine. I know you previously didn't like multiplayer, but it would be nice to hear how your multiplayer deck does at your local scene. I also look forward to your complaints about people who can't assess threats correctly. lol
But, I think somethings are worth to try, Ill try Stranglehold, war's toll, Winter orb and perhaps static orb, I also like to try rule of law, Hushwing Gryff and aven mindcensor
I alreay made some room for Grand abolitioner, the grifing, stranglhold and warrs toll and I will be thinking what to cut for the other cards
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
Gah, don't get me started on poor threat assessment haha. "No, let's not target the Memnarch with a Gauntlet of Power, nonono, Kaalia might play something next turn..."
And I'm sitting here just "-_____________-"
Yeah, the thing with Stax is that sure the pieces are very strong (I myself like me some 3sphere in most decks) but it will very easily dilute your game plan such that you're playing less of what you wanted, and more of "piss the table off" cards. Which is fine if that's your thing; I really don't want to give people more of an incentive to throw hate Kaalia's way. Just let me play my Lord of the Void in peace... What's the worst that could happen...?
...Yeah, don't ask that question at the table.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The thing is that in multiplayer I am always the "enemy" or at least is my perception, it seems the other players seems to think that even 1 creature kaalia have is too much, so even if I hardcast something I am being targeted.
In my playgroup when the table is 3-4 players, normally the agro is going to the people with more creature presense, I wont go full STAX because is not my game, but some cards as the abolitioner, the grifin, the orbs, the aven mindcensor or the enchants seems to be good enought to help me protect my plan, with or without kaalia.
EDIT: I will try to explain myself better, in a 3-4 ppl table I am often in the situation where I have Kaalia and one fattie or just one fattie.
I play things like apostle's blessing and faith's shield because I can protect my stuff from removal, not always kaalia but avavyn or iona are my main targets.
My plan adding some stax cards is to help me develop my plan with more assurance, we dont have counterspells, so the way we protect our plan is by counting in our opponents bad draws or having some reacting spells like the ones I use.
war's toll makes the opponents get tapped if they play anything, so, you want to play a removal on kaalia? ok, but all your lands will be tapped, if you drop a dude.. all your lands will be tapped, so I will be able to cast freely my stuff.
Stranglehold is a removal bait, I choose all day they spend the removal for enchants on it rather than my dragon tempest or necropotence, not to mention that the effect is asymetrical so THEY dont get to search in libraries and not take extra turns.
Rule of law is another dont mess with me kind of card, Kaalia doesnt need to cast more than one spell each turn, is shuts off combos, and many threats.
The birds are just awesome in the 3cmc, they shuts tutors, fetchs and triggered abilities like acidic slime in a instant speed , and because they are creatures they will be acting as another removal bait and if they dont, wel they are still flying 2/1 bodies.
Linvala, keeper of silence and angel of finality are both awesome flyers too, for a cheap 4cmc they give us a GREAT value, and they are 3/4 in the right creature types.
The orbs also gives us 'tranquility' I want my opponents to spend their mana developing their game plan but not disturbing mine, so if they can untap only a single land each turn they will be forced to think carefully what they do with the mana, will they hold mana for removal or they will be casting their general?
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
I tried.. but... is not asymetric, I dont want ppl casting stuf at my turn but I also dont want to pay 4 mana for a path to exile in my opponents turn.
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
Hi, I have actually a new decklist that has been working very good for me against a wide variety of decks and it does not includes any "combos" so is actualy fun to play and fun to play against.
The thing is, vs some decks, like control I need to tutor things and I have not yet aquire a vampiric tutor or demonic tutor , so I wonder how bad is Liliana Vess.
Sometimes I just need a Boseiju. who shelters all or other utility land, I run expedition map to tutor them but I know is just suboptimal
Any ideas?
BTW, my post is here just in case you want to give some extra input
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
Liliana Vess is pretty poor, tbh. I'd even play Diabolic Tutor over it. It's just........bleh. Expedition Map is pretty decent though, nothing wrong with that because it fetches nonbasics.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
If you wanted a budget alternative; I've been a fan of Razaketh's Rite in the baseline deck, mainly because unlike diabolic, this card isn't dead so early on. Just my two cents.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I don't really like it a lot, I am thinking using insidious dreams (not for combo, just tutoring)
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
But it's four cmc and just a top deck tutour. Better to just Tainted Pact or Demonic Consultation, I think. Even Cruel Tutor is stronger (usually), and I'd play Demonic Collusion over this as well.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
Cheers!
To be fair, Tainted Pact requires building in a certain way. My decks are set up to use it (one of each basic, one of each snow basic, and a wastes - seven basics so I can have plenty of lands to not get Wasteland'd). Consultation does have a non-zero percent chance of losing the game on cast (if the named card is in the top six). I'd still play them, but these are real concerns that some players have justified in staying away from them. YMMV.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Probably something like this, I'd imagine; http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia-of-the-tabernacle/
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think you once mentioned Grim Tutor as well.
I have. But if @Alexev is a bit budget minded, Grim Tutour is not where he wants to be. I bought it, it's served me well. But that is a serious investment that may not feel completely worth the cash. I find myself forcing XB just to make sure I can get some mileage from it lol.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This build might be scarier than most I've seen from you.
And that's scary.