Kinda feel like Mordant Dragon should come back into this deck. Solid removal, and on-damage triggers is where this deck prefers to be anyway.
I also feel like I want to play Glorybringer, despite it's Flameblast Syndrome, it's hardcastable, hasty, and an easy way to make sure Kaalia can get through. Imagine someone having a post-combat chump and getting blown out by the Glorybringer they didn't know about. In this vein, it's a second Thundermaw Hellkite........and it's quite documented how much I do enjoy some Thundermaw.
I also feel like I want to play Glorybringer, despite it's Flameblast Syndrome, it's hardcastable, hasty, and an easy way to make sure Kaalia can get through. Imagine someone having a post-combat chump and getting blown out by the Glorybringer they didn't know about. In this vein, it's a second Thundermaw Hellkite........and it's quite documented how much I do enjoy some Thundermaw.
I am confused by your last sentence on Glorybringer. How does an opponent's post-combat chump get blown out by Glorybringer? Glorybringer's exertion happens during the declare attackers step of combat, so you can't use Kaalia's ability on it. If you hard cast Glorybringer, your opponents have an opportunity to stop it from damaging any of their potential blockers before combat starts.
I also feel like I want to play Glorybringer, despite it's Flameblast Syndrome, it's hardcastable, hasty, and an easy way to make sure Kaalia can get through. Imagine someone having a post-combat chump and getting blown out by the Glorybringer they didn't know about. In this vein, it's a second Thundermaw Hellkite........and it's quite documented how much I do enjoy some Thundermaw.
I am confused by your last sentence on Glorybringer. How does an opponent's post-combat chump get blown out by Glorybringer? Glorybringer's exertion happens during the declare attackers step of combat, so you can't use Kaalia's ability on it. If you hard cast Glorybringer, your opponents have an opportunity to stop it from damaging any of their potential blockers before combat starts.
My fault. I meant when they play a post combat blocker in their 2nd main to deter a Kaalia attack. Normally Thundermaw would handle that for us, but Glorybringer is a 2nd copy of the effect. And repeatable. Albeit, less efficient than Thundermaw sure.
Maybe I'm just nostalgic for an [on type] pseudo Flametongue Kavu.
I also feel like I want to play Glorybringer, despite it's Flameblast Syndrome, it's hardcastable, hasty, and an easy way to make sure Kaalia can get through. Imagine someone having a post-combat chump and getting blown out by the Glorybringer they didn't know about. In this vein, it's a second Thundermaw Hellkite........and it's quite documented how much I do enjoy some Thundermaw.
I am confused by your last sentence on Glorybringer. How does an opponent's post-combat chump get blown out by Glorybringer? Glorybringer's exertion happens during the declare attackers step of combat, so you can't use Kaalia's ability on it. If you hard cast Glorybringer, your opponents have an opportunity to stop it from damaging any of their potential blockers before combat starts.
My fault. I meant when they play a post combat blocker in their 2nd main to deter a Kaalia attack. Normally Thundermaw would handle that for us, but Glorybringer is a 2nd copy of the effect. And repeatable. Albeit, less efficient than Thundermaw sure.
Maybe I'm just nostalgic for an [on type] pseudo Flametongue Kavu.
Thanks for clarifying. Since our opponents could block Kaalia with their blockers, I think we just need creatures with good ETB triggers like Thundermaw Hellkite. At one point, your list had Bogardan Hellkite. It costs too much mana, but Wizards needs to release more of those things that costs 5-6. I wish Scourge of Valkas wasn't based on the number of dragons, but on the number of Mountains.
I also feel like I want to play Glorybringer, despite it's Flameblast Syndrome, it's hardcastable, hasty, and an easy way to make sure Kaalia can get through. Imagine someone having a post-combat chump and getting blown out by the Glorybringer they didn't know about. In this vein, it's a second Thundermaw Hellkite........and it's quite documented how much I do enjoy some Thundermaw.
I am confused by your last sentence on Glorybringer. How does an opponent's post-combat chump get blown out by Glorybringer? Glorybringer's exertion happens during the declare attackers step of combat, so you can't use Kaalia's ability on it. If you hard cast Glorybringer, your opponents have an opportunity to stop it from damaging any of their potential blockers before combat starts.
My fault. I meant when they play a post combat blocker in their 2nd main to deter a Kaalia attack. Normally Thundermaw would handle that for us, but Glorybringer is a 2nd copy of the effect. And repeatable. Albeit, less efficient than Thundermaw sure.
Maybe I'm just nostalgic for an [on type] pseudo Flametongue Kavu.
Thanks for clarifying. Since our opponents could block Kaalia with their blockers, I think we just need creatures with good ETB triggers like Thundermaw Hellkite. At one point, your list had Bogardan Hellkite. It costs too much mana, but Wizards needs to release more of those things that costs 5-6. I wish Scourge of Valkas wasn't based on the number of dragons, but on the number of Mountains.
Yea, Bogardan works in a similar way, albeit uncastable outside the commander's effect. Wizards is warming up to more and more five drop dragons and family, and glorybringer being on type, reusable even, it makes it #2 after Thundermaw.
That and I am working on the draconic version too, so I can try to make Scourge of Valkas more reliable as well.
Hey 3drinks, sorry if this has been asked before, but with the length of this thread now I couldn't really find anything. I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on Anguished Unmaking? It feels to me like it would hit a lot of possible targets, and the price never really felt that bad. And seeing that Chaos Warp is a thing in your deck, it made my wonder why you don't run Anguished.
Hey 3drinks, sorry if this has been asked before, but with the length of this thread now I couldn't really find anything. I'm just curious, what are your thoughts on Anguished Unmaking? It feels to me like it would hit a lot of possible targets, and the price never really felt that bad. And seeing that Chaos Warp is a thing in your deck, it made my wonder why you don't run Anguished.
Oh, I play it...most of the time. It does conflict with Earnest Fellowship to a point (more chances to get blocked by it). Whereas say...my Arsenal Chaos Warp and even Unexpectedly Absent, only have that single colour to worry about. While Vindicate also has the same issue as Unmaking, it gets a pass since it can hit any single card, which is beyond useful. Plus, I have that super sick judge promo with the guy slamming the sword into the ground.
I do need to retool the main list though with all these more modern removals, such as Fatal Push and Abrade though. Will look into that again after I get this Dragonstorm build online.
Yes you all heard that right. I'm trying to Kaalia-flavour storm.
Yes you all heard that right. I'm trying to Kaalia-flavour storm.
Turning Kaalia into a combo deck? Good luck!
Also, I don't always use Anguished Unmaking on creatures. It's still useful against pesky artifacts and enchantments.
Well, I've always viewed her as combo by definition. But I'm trying right now to make Dragonstorm happen. It's not easy...but oh, the payoff if it works (it probably doesn't).
With Unmaking, it's kinda obnoxious holding up three mana for a single target removal, even Wear//Tear is a two-for-one.
I just kind of noticed it last night, but the "Baseline" build just got several reasonable upgrades thanks to Iconic Masters - Bladewing the Risen & Indulgent Tormentor downshifted to Uncommon, and a few others. I'm going to have to go back and take a closer look. Good project for me since I'm looking into the main list as well.
EDIT: Baseline is updated through IMA/XLN/C17. Nothing gained from Ixalan, and I suspect this to be the case for the rest of the block (unless another fatal push/abrade level removal comes along, which I don't expect), but IMA added a lot (thanks to downshifted rarities) and c17 added a little bit.
IDK if I should share the main Dragonstorm version of the list yet since I've only played a handful of games (which were victorious, mind you), but I will say this; in true, vintage 3drinks fashion, it's not a cheap deck.
Well, I've always viewed her as combo by definition. But I'm trying right now to make Dragonstorm happen. It's not easy...but oh, the payoff if it works (it probably doesn't).
With Unmaking, it's kinda obnoxious holding up three mana for a single target removal, even Wear//Tear is a two-for-one.
I have always viewed your list as a "Valuetown" list where many of your A/D/D creatures have extra ETB or non-combat abilities that make the deck not an aggro deck. There isn't really a game-ending combo like more competitive EDH decks. The Dragonstorm idea is a game-ending combo, especially if you can generate extra turns or additional combat phases.
You have a point about Wear / Tear. For the same mana as Unmaking, you can target two permanents.
See, that's wierd to me because I've always felt "the combo" was setting up a board state where Kaalia attacks safely, repetitively, and maybe even profitably. With the more direct definitions of combo being Master of Cruelties & Rakdos the Defiler, although the latter less so I suppose nowadays. In prior versions, the Yosei + SoLaS was a combo lock too.
Im still working on perfecting how to get an optimum Dragonstorm turn where I can "go off" for more than a extra spell, like more traditional storm decks do.
See, that's wierd to me because I've always felt "the combo" was setting up a board state where Kaalia attacks safely, repetitively, and maybe even profitably. With the more direct definitions of combo being Master of Cruelties & Rakdos the Defiler, although the latter less so I suppose nowadays. In prior versions, the Yosei + SoLaS was a combo lock too.
Im still working on perfecting how to get an optimum Dragonstorm turn where I can "go off" for more than a extra spell, like more traditional storm decks do.
I would agree that Yosei + SoLaS is a combo lock. My idea of a combo deck is that the deck is tuned to get that combo as quickly as possible, and once that combo goes off, it's either a lock or game-ending. I did not really see your Kaalia deck function that way. Yosei + SoLaS is a "small combo" but the deck doesn't really go out of its way to get that combo. Based on your further elaboration of your deck, I can view your deck as having a lot of "little combos" that help with the game plan, but the deck doesn't feel like the other EDH combo decks. Dragonstorm, however, is a game-defining combo, especially if you build your deck around to get that to work. We just have a different view of what "combo" is. Regardless, we agree that Kaalia cannot just be a linear aggro deck. Modifying the deck to have a game-defining combo, a lot of little combos, or generates tons on value works towards that goal.
See, that's wierd to me because I've always felt "the combo" was setting up a board state where Kaalia attacks safely, repetitively, and maybe even profitably. With the more direct definitions of combo being Master of Cruelties & Rakdos the Defiler, although the latter less so I suppose nowadays. In prior versions, the Yosei + SoLaS was a combo lock too.
Im still working on perfecting how to get an optimum Dragonstorm turn where I can "go off" for more than a extra spell, like more traditional storm decks do.
I would agree that Yosei + SoLaS is a combo lock. My idea of a combo deck is that the deck is tuned to get that combo as quickly as possible, and once that combo goes off, it's either a lock or game-ending. I did not really see your Kaalia deck function that way. Yosei + SoLaS is a "small combo" but the deck doesn't really go out of its way to get that combo. Based on your further elaboration of your deck, I can view your deck as having a lot of "little combos" that help with the game plan, but the deck doesn't feel like the other EDH combo decks. Dragonstorm, however, is a game-defining combo, especially if you build your deck around to get that to work. We just have a different view of what "combo" is. Regardless, we agree that Kaalia cannot just be a linear aggro deck. Modifying the deck to have a game-defining combo, a lot of little combos, or generates tons on value works towards that goal.
I think this just helped point me in the right direction. Liter a few small combos to hold down the fort (Yosei lock) while buying time to the game ending combo (Dragonstorm). I just need to figure out how to "storm off" without blue, to keep combing through the deck and net mana (more than with just Paradox Engine plus rocks), and still find the Dragonstorm and the mana to cast it that turn. I guess Wheel of Fortune would help with that, and Dragon Mage can too (for no mana even, launched via Kaalia).
All while keeping a proper threat density to make our lady-in-red still able to function consistently. It's a puzzle.
See, that's wierd to me because I've always felt "the combo" was setting up a board state where Kaalia attacks safely, repetitively, and maybe even profitably. With the more direct definitions of combo being Master of Cruelties & Rakdos the Defiler, although the latter less so I suppose nowadays. In prior versions, the Yosei + SoLaS was a combo lock too.
Im still working on perfecting how to get an optimum Dragonstorm turn where I can "go off" for more than a extra spell, like more traditional storm decks do.
I would agree that Yosei + SoLaS is a combo lock. My idea of a combo deck is that the deck is tuned to get that combo as quickly as possible, and once that combo goes off, it's either a lock or game-ending. I did not really see your Kaalia deck function that way. Yosei + SoLaS is a "small combo" but the deck doesn't really go out of its way to get that combo. Based on your further elaboration of your deck, I can view your deck as having a lot of "little combos" that help with the game plan, but the deck doesn't feel like the other EDH combo decks. Dragonstorm, however, is a game-defining combo, especially if you build your deck around to get that to work. We just have a different view of what "combo" is. Regardless, we agree that Kaalia cannot just be a linear aggro deck. Modifying the deck to have a game-defining combo, a lot of little combos, or generates tons on value works towards that goal.
I think this just helped point me in the right direction. Liter a few small combos to hold down the fort (Yosei lock) while buying time to the game ending combo (Dragonstorm). I just need to figure out how to "storm off" without blue, to keep combing through the deck and net mana (more than with just Paradox Engine plus rocks), and still find the Dragonstorm and the mana to cast it that turn. I guess Wheel of Fortune would help with that, and Dragon Mage can too (for no mana even, launched via Kaalia).
All while keeping a proper threat density to make our lady-in-red still able to function consistently. It's a puzzle.
I'm glad that our discussion is helping your deckbuilding.
Is there anything that can allow you to cast Dragonstorm for free? Or if your are going to cast it, can you copy it?
9 mana is a lot, and with a lot of blue-based decks in the meta, it can be countered unless you can keep the other decks from doing anything (i.e Stax strategy).
I'm glad that our discussion is helping your deckbuilding.
Is there anything that can allow you to cast Dragonstorm for free? Or if your are going to cast it, can you copy it?
9 mana is a lot, and with a lot of blue-based decks in the meta, it can be countered unless you can keep the other decks from doing anything (i.e Stax strategy).
Because of the way the Storm mechanic works, it has to be cast from hand (I'm not worried about a counterspell, since you'd have to Stifle the trigger and counter the spell to fully stop it). You could put a copy of it on the stack, but that copy won't trigger Storm as copies aren't cast. I'd almost have to start Forking Rituals but that runs into the problem of limited deck slots and trading dragons for rituals and support, which also hurts the Kaalia plan.
Unlike the Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond play, I can't do that with Dragonstorm since I don't need the mana after casting, and it's a sorcery so I can't use the Lion's Eye to help cast this (barring YawgWin/Past in Flames...which is just adding more complications). I could add more "big" rocks (i.e. Basalt Monolith and Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo, Khalni Gem and even Gilded Lotus...but from where? That's replacing Signets which are helping cast the commander. Kaalia only benefits so much off of colourless mana. It's a puzzle, but it's a fun puzzle.
I'm glad that our discussion is helping your deckbuilding.
Is there anything that can allow you to cast Dragonstorm for free? Or if your are going to cast it, can you copy it?
9 mana is a lot, and with a lot of blue-based decks in the meta, it can be countered unless you can keep the other decks from doing anything (i.e Stax strategy).
Because of the way the Storm mechanic works, it has to be cast from hand (I'm not worried about a counterspell, since you'd have to Stifle the trigger and counter the spell to fully stop it). You could put a copy of it on the stack, but that copy won't trigger Storm as copies aren't cast. I'd almost have to start Forking Rituals but that runs into the problem of limited deck slots and trading dragons for rituals and support, which also hurts the Kaalia plan.
Unlike the Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond play, I can't do that with Dragonstorm since I don't need the mana after casting, and it's a sorcery so I can't use the Lion's Eye to help cast this (barring YawgWin/Past in Flames...which is just adding more complications). I could add more "big" rocks (i.e. Basalt Monolith and Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo, Khalni Gem and even Gilded Lotus...but from where? That's replacing Signets which are helping cast the commander. Kaalia only benefits so much off of colourless mana. It's a puzzle, but it's a fun puzzle.
Oops, I need to read card text better. I totally missed Storm required the spell to be cast. I don't play Storm and haven't played a Storm card for a long while, so that shows how much I know. Hahaha.
Yeah, I can't in good conscience play any of those cards. Between too much mana or letting the opponent choose, they're just not reliable. In a similar vein though is Temporal Aperture - but that is both mana heavy, and randomized such that it can't be manipulated. It's almost like I have to Morality Shift into a huge Past in Flames turn...oh but wait, if I do that then I probably don't have any dragons left for the big Dragonstorm finale.
All these tricks work better on a Grapeshot or Tendrils of Agony kill......waitaminute, what if I ran those as well? Come in disguised as a Kaalia deck, then oops, Tendrils, I win...but can sometimes go the flashy route with Dragons instead.
........this sounds like I'm two steps away from building @ Reddit's r/badmtgcombos. >_<
Yeah, I can't in good conscience play any of those cards. Between too much mana or letting the opponent choose, they're just not reliable. In a similar vein though is Temporal Aperture - but that is both mana heavy, and randomized such that it can't be manipulated. It's almost like I have to Morality Shift into a huge Past in Flames turn...oh but wait, if I do that then I probably don't have any dragons left for the big Dragonstorm finale.
All these tricks work better on a Grapeshot or Tendrils of Agony kill......waitaminute, what if I ran those as well? Come in disguised as a Kaalia deck, then oops, Tendrils, I win...but can sometimes go the flashy route with Dragons instead.
........this sounds like I'm two steps away from building @ Reddit's r/badmtgcombos. >_<
Agreed. Don't go making bad combos. You would only dilute your deck further if you tried to add other, more usable combos like Tendrils or Grapeshot. In those cases, you would just abandon Kaalia and build those decks instead.
Just brainstorming here...
It doesn't look like there is anything that lets you convert all that colorless mana from artifacts into colored mana. That way, you keep colored mana for casting Kaalia and other spells and then can use the colorless for Dragonstorm.
And, there aren't any good cost-reduction effects either.
Lotus Petal isn't banned, but you need an artifact recursion combo to keep bringing it back. That might dilute the deck and bring it back to a bad combo. However, if you bring the artifact back 9 times, that would be a lot of Dragons.
It looks like Wizards correctly costed Dragonstorm, because of all the ways we are trying to cheat it in.
Yeah, I can't in good conscience play any of those cards. Between too much mana or letting the opponent choose, they're just not reliable. In a similar vein though is Temporal Aperture - but that is both mana heavy, and randomized such that it can't be manipulated. It's almost like I have to Morality Shift into a huge Past in Flames turn...oh but wait, if I do that then I probably don't have any dragons left for the big Dragonstorm finale.
All these tricks work better on a Grapeshot or Tendrils of Agony kill......waitaminute, what if I ran those as well? Come in disguised as a Kaalia deck, then oops, Tendrils, I win...but can sometimes go the flashy route with Dragons instead.
........this sounds like I'm two steps away from building @ Reddit's r/badmtgcombos. >_<
Agreed. Don't go making bad combos. You would only dilute your deck further if you tried to add other, more usable combos like Tendrils or Grapeshot. In those cases, you would just abandon Kaalia and build those decks instead.
Just brainstorming here...
It doesn't look like there is anything that lets you convert all that colorless mana from artifacts into colored mana. That way, you keep colored mana for casting Kaalia and other spells and then can use the colorless for Dragonstorm.
And, there aren't any good cost-reduction effects either.
Lotus Petal isn't banned, but you need an artifact recursion combo to keep bringing it back. That might dilute the deck and bring it back to a bad combo. However, if you bring the artifact back 9 times, that would be a lot of Dragons.
It looks like Wizards correctly costed Dragonstorm, because of all the ways we are trying to cheat it in.
And I have all the [legal] Moxen. My primary "reduction" effect is Paradox Engine (float mana between triggers) but I need a stream of spells to get the critical mass to go off. Seal of the Guildpact, Helm of Awakening, & Stone Calendar are the best cost reducers I can play, with of course the three on-colour TMP block Medallions after that. Foundry Inspector is probably more narrow than Medallions. Now I'm hitting Nightscape Familiar/Thunderscape territory and I'm not sure how much I like that. If it's just an abundance of colourless mana and the need for a slight sprinkle of coloured, then Gemstone Array could be the fix. However, it sounds like I need a steady stream of cards moreso than the mana engine itself...
Bubbling MuckIS a BHigh Tide...and Rain of Filth gives me some last ditch, all-in mana. Similarly, I'm not opposed to Lake of the Dead as it can provide a sudden mana boost which can still hardcast our dragons without our commander or the signature spell. And this gives rise to the notion of re-adding Crucible of Worlds.......
If I add Faithless Looting, Tormenting Voice, Cathartic Reunion, and Wild Guess that could help, and Seal of the Guildpact (name BR I think) would make a lot of mana with Engine and Signets. Null Profussion exists, although like it's predecessor Recycle I can easily get locked under it with a pair of bad draws. Dangerous Wager is...true to it's name, a bit of a gambit and also likely a bit too risky to storm with.
Quote from Bit of Dragonstorm Theorycrafting »
So, I resolve Lion's Eye Diamond, then Morality Shift to dump my library, then flashback Past in Flames. From here, then cast the Infernal Tutor and respond to it on the stack with Lion's Eye Diamond to turn Infernal into a Demonic Tutour for Feldon's Cane. Then flashback any remaining rituals to build storm, finally ending the sequence by casting the Cane from my hand. then with the remaining mana, I flashback the Dragonstorm, put the storm copies on the stack, then respond by activating Feldon's Cane to shuffle my graveyard back into my library, then let the Dragonstorm copies resolve. One, by one, these will come in triggering Scourge of Valkas each time, and possibly copies of Warstorm Surge or Pandemonium, until all opponents are dead to Dragonstorm.
...yeah, this sounds like it's certainly...err, "something"?
Yeah, I can't in good conscience play any of those cards. Between too much mana or letting the opponent choose, they're just not reliable. In a similar vein though is Temporal Aperture - but that is both mana heavy, and randomized such that it can't be manipulated. It's almost like I have to Morality Shift into a huge Past in Flames turn...oh but wait, if I do that then I probably don't have any dragons left for the big Dragonstorm finale.
All these tricks work better on a Grapeshot or Tendrils of Agony kill......waitaminute, what if I ran those as well? Come in disguised as a Kaalia deck, then oops, Tendrils, I win...but can sometimes go the flashy route with Dragons instead.
........this sounds like I'm two steps away from building @ Reddit's r/badmtgcombos. >_<
Agreed. Don't go making bad combos. You would only dilute your deck further if you tried to add other, more usable combos like Tendrils or Grapeshot. In those cases, you would just abandon Kaalia and build those decks instead.
Just brainstorming here...
It doesn't look like there is anything that lets you convert all that colorless mana from artifacts into colored mana. That way, you keep colored mana for casting Kaalia and other spells and then can use the colorless for Dragonstorm.
And, there aren't any good cost-reduction effects either.
Lotus Petal isn't banned, but you need an artifact recursion combo to keep bringing it back. That might dilute the deck and bring it back to a bad combo. However, if you bring the artifact back 9 times, that would be a lot of Dragons.
It looks like Wizards correctly costed Dragonstorm, because of all the ways we are trying to cheat it in.
Actually, Auriok Salvagers would help the storm count, since it brings Lotus Petal back to your hand. Then, you cast Lotus Petal for 0. However, Auriok Salvagers needs 2 mana each time you need its ability, so you would be losing mana over time, and possibly not have enough to hard cast Dragonstorm. If you can bring Lotus Petal back to your hand for free, you would increase the storm count and get mana to cast Dragonstorm. Even if such cards exist to enable you to do that, you would have to analyze if those enablers dilute the Kaalia deck further.
Whoops, my bad, I thought Salvagers was returning the card to the battlefield. So that would, but it doesn't really help with storm count as I lose mana. I could with LED...but then I wouldn't have a hand, including Dragonstorm. Lotus Bloom could...but it'd need time.
Well, I have been playing Kaalia as my main EDH for a couple of months, my meta is wide, there are combos but most of my friends just hate combo decks and refuse to play against them, so in my LGS if you play some deck that has as main moto a combo you will be set aside from certain tables.
My Kaalia deck has some combos but they are not the kind of offensive combos my playmates dislike so I am tolerated
I by myself dont like combos very much either but I added them in order to stand a chance in a multiplayer table, normally in 1vs1 games I do very well even against some control decks, but in a multiplayer enviroment with heavy control or annoying things like marchesa, mereen, atraxa, etc. Kaalia's life is a pain.
So I will share my decklist looking for some advice on how to improve it to get better results in a 3-4 man table against control, atraxa, mereen, nekusar, etc.
Sometimes I just think 100 cards are to few, I want to add other stuffs, matbe 1-2 extra board wipes (Damnation and Planar cleansing), sometimes I think my card draw is just too low, sometimes I feel I need a Reverberate but sometimes I just miss the 2nd red source
In a 1vs1 this decklist works really fine, but in a 4ppl table.... is a pain
I would love to read some advices on how to improve it and also on how to play some things, maybe you have some 'tricks' you want to share against blue mages
I also feel like I want to play Glorybringer, despite it's Flameblast Syndrome, it's hardcastable, hasty, and an easy way to make sure Kaalia can get through. Imagine someone having a post-combat chump and getting blown out by the Glorybringer they didn't know about. In this vein, it's a second Thundermaw Hellkite........and it's quite documented how much I do enjoy some Thundermaw.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I am confused by your last sentence on Glorybringer. How does an opponent's post-combat chump get blown out by Glorybringer? Glorybringer's exertion happens during the declare attackers step of combat, so you can't use Kaalia's ability on it. If you hard cast Glorybringer, your opponents have an opportunity to stop it from damaging any of their potential blockers before combat starts.
My fault. I meant when they play a post combat blocker in their 2nd main to deter a Kaalia attack. Normally Thundermaw would handle that for us, but Glorybringer is a 2nd copy of the effect. And repeatable. Albeit, less efficient than Thundermaw sure.
Maybe I'm just nostalgic for an [on type] pseudo Flametongue Kavu.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Thanks for clarifying. Since our opponents could block Kaalia with their blockers, I think we just need creatures with good ETB triggers like Thundermaw Hellkite. At one point, your list had Bogardan Hellkite. It costs too much mana, but Wizards needs to release more of those things that costs 5-6. I wish Scourge of Valkas wasn't based on the number of dragons, but on the number of Mountains.
At one point, I have even used Beacon of Destruction as a reusable bolt.
Yea, Bogardan works in a similar way, albeit uncastable outside the commander's effect. Wizards is warming up to more and more five drop dragons and family, and glorybringer being on type, reusable even, it makes it #2 after Thundermaw.
That and I am working on the draconic version too, so I can try to make Scourge of Valkas more reliable as well.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Oh, I play it...most of the time. It does conflict with Earnest Fellowship to a point (more chances to get blocked by it). Whereas say...my Arsenal Chaos Warp and even Unexpectedly Absent, only have that single colour to worry about. While Vindicate also has the same issue as Unmaking, it gets a pass since it can hit any single card, which is beyond useful. Plus, I have that super sick judge promo with the guy slamming the sword into the ground.
I do need to retool the main list though with all these more modern removals, such as Fatal Push and Abrade though. Will look into that again after I get this Dragonstorm build online.
Yes you all heard that right. I'm trying to Kaalia-flavour storm.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Turning Kaalia into a combo deck? Good luck!
Also, I don't always use Anguished Unmaking on creatures. It's still useful against pesky artifacts and enchantments.
Well, I've always viewed her as combo by definition. But I'm trying right now to make Dragonstorm happen. It's not easy...but oh, the payoff if it works (it probably doesn't).
With Unmaking, it's kinda obnoxious holding up three mana for a single target removal, even Wear//Tear is a two-for-one.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
EDIT: Baseline is updated through IMA/XLN/C17. Nothing gained from Ixalan, and I suspect this to be the case for the rest of the block (unless another fatal push/abrade level removal comes along, which I don't expect), but IMA added a lot (thanks to downshifted rarities) and c17 added a little bit.
IDK if I should share the main Dragonstorm version of the list yet since I've only played a handful of games (which were victorious, mind you), but I will say this; in true, vintage 3drinks fashion, it's not a cheap deck.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I have always viewed your list as a "Valuetown" list where many of your A/D/D creatures have extra ETB or non-combat abilities that make the deck not an aggro deck. There isn't really a game-ending combo like more competitive EDH decks. The Dragonstorm idea is a game-ending combo, especially if you can generate extra turns or additional combat phases.
You have a point about Wear / Tear. For the same mana as Unmaking, you can target two permanents.
Im still working on perfecting how to get an optimum Dragonstorm turn where I can "go off" for more than a extra spell, like more traditional storm decks do.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I would agree that Yosei + SoLaS is a combo lock. My idea of a combo deck is that the deck is tuned to get that combo as quickly as possible, and once that combo goes off, it's either a lock or game-ending. I did not really see your Kaalia deck function that way. Yosei + SoLaS is a "small combo" but the deck doesn't really go out of its way to get that combo. Based on your further elaboration of your deck, I can view your deck as having a lot of "little combos" that help with the game plan, but the deck doesn't feel like the other EDH combo decks. Dragonstorm, however, is a game-defining combo, especially if you build your deck around to get that to work. We just have a different view of what "combo" is. Regardless, we agree that Kaalia cannot just be a linear aggro deck. Modifying the deck to have a game-defining combo, a lot of little combos, or generates tons on value works towards that goal.
I think this just helped point me in the right direction. Liter a few small combos to hold down the fort (Yosei lock) while buying time to the game ending combo (Dragonstorm). I just need to figure out how to "storm off" without blue, to keep combing through the deck and net mana (more than with just Paradox Engine plus rocks), and still find the Dragonstorm and the mana to cast it that turn. I guess Wheel of Fortune would help with that, and Dragon Mage can too (for no mana even, launched via Kaalia).
All while keeping a proper threat density to make our lady-in-red still able to function consistently. It's a puzzle.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I'm glad that our discussion is helping your deckbuilding.
Is there anything that can allow you to cast Dragonstorm for free? Or if your are going to cast it, can you copy it?
9 mana is a lot, and with a lot of blue-based decks in the meta, it can be countered unless you can keep the other decks from doing anything (i.e Stax strategy).
Because of the way the Storm mechanic works, it has to be cast from hand (I'm not worried about a counterspell, since you'd have to Stifle the trigger and counter the spell to fully stop it). You could put a copy of it on the stack, but that copy won't trigger Storm as copies aren't cast. I'd almost have to start Forking Rituals but that runs into the problem of limited deck slots and trading dragons for rituals and support, which also hurts the Kaalia plan.
Unlike the Infernal Tutor + Lion's Eye Diamond play, I can't do that with Dragonstorm since I don't need the mana after casting, and it's a sorcery so I can't use the Lion's Eye to help cast this (barring YawgWin/Past in Flames...which is just adding more complications). I could add more "big" rocks (i.e. Basalt Monolith and Grim Monolith, Thran Dynamo, Khalni Gem and even Gilded Lotus...but from where? That's replacing Signets which are helping cast the commander. Kaalia only benefits so much off of colourless mana. It's a puzzle, but it's a fun puzzle.
Dream Halls & Omniscience could cast it for free...but wrong colours. Mindclaw Shaman...but only hits opponents.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Oops, I need to read card text better. I totally missed Storm required the spell to be cast. I don't play Storm and haven't played a Storm card for a long while, so that shows how much I know. Hahaha.
Oracle of Bones requires opponent not to pay tribute.
Oracle's Vault and Omen Machine cost a lot and require library manipulation.
All these tricks work better on a Grapeshot or Tendrils of Agony kill......waitaminute, what if I ran those as well? Come in disguised as a Kaalia deck, then oops, Tendrils, I win...but can sometimes go the flashy route with Dragons instead.
........this sounds like I'm two steps away from building @ Reddit's r/badmtgcombos. >_<
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Agreed. Don't go making bad combos. You would only dilute your deck further if you tried to add other, more usable combos like Tendrils or Grapeshot. In those cases, you would just abandon Kaalia and build those decks instead.
Just brainstorming here...
It doesn't look like there is anything that lets you convert all that colorless mana from artifacts into colored mana. That way, you keep colored mana for casting Kaalia and other spells and then can use the colorless for Dragonstorm.
And, there aren't any good cost-reduction effects either.
Lotus Petal isn't banned, but you need an artifact recursion combo to keep bringing it back. That might dilute the deck and bring it back to a bad combo. However, if you bring the artifact back 9 times, that would be a lot of Dragons.
It looks like Wizards correctly costed Dragonstorm, because of all the ways we are trying to cheat it in.
Agree'd. Hmm. I could use Salvaging Station/Auriok Salvagers to recur Lotus Bloom/Petal to cover the mana, but that doesn't build storm count.
And I have all the [legal] Moxen. My primary "reduction" effect is Paradox Engine (float mana between triggers) but I need a stream of spells to get the critical mass to go off. Seal of the Guildpact, Helm of Awakening, & Stone Calendar are the best cost reducers I can play, with of course the three on-colour TMP block Medallions after that. Foundry Inspector is probably more narrow than Medallions. Now I'm hitting Nightscape Familiar/Thunderscape territory and I'm not sure how much I like that. If it's just an abundance of colourless mana and the need for a slight sprinkle of coloured, then Gemstone Array could be the fix. However, it sounds like I need a steady stream of cards moreso than the mana engine itself...
Bubbling Muck IS a B High Tide...and Rain of Filth gives me some last ditch, all-in mana. Similarly, I'm not opposed to Lake of the Dead as it can provide a sudden mana boost which can still hardcast our dragons without our commander or the signature spell. And this gives rise to the notion of re-adding Crucible of Worlds.......
If I add Faithless Looting, Tormenting Voice, Cathartic Reunion, and Wild Guess that could help, and Seal of the Guildpact (name BR I think) would make a lot of mana with Engine and Signets. Null Profussion exists, although like it's predecessor Recycle I can easily get locked under it with a pair of bad draws. Dangerous Wager is...true to it's name, a bit of a gambit and also likely a bit too risky to storm with.
...yeah, this sounds like it's certainly...err, "something"?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Actually, Auriok Salvagers would help the storm count, since it brings Lotus Petal back to your hand. Then, you cast Lotus Petal for 0. However, Auriok Salvagers needs 2 mana each time you need its ability, so you would be losing mana over time, and possibly not have enough to hard cast Dragonstorm. If you can bring Lotus Petal back to your hand for free, you would increase the storm count and get mana to cast Dragonstorm. Even if such cards exist to enable you to do that, you would have to analyze if those enablers dilute the Kaalia deck further.
I'll figure this out. Haha.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
My Kaalia deck has some combos but they are not the kind of offensive combos my playmates dislike so I am tolerated
I by myself dont like combos very much either but I added them in order to stand a chance in a multiplayer table, normally in 1vs1 games I do very well even against some control decks, but in a multiplayer enviroment with heavy control or annoying things like marchesa, mereen, atraxa, etc. Kaalia's life is a pain.
So I will share my decklist looking for some advice on how to improve it to get better results in a 3-4 man table against control, atraxa, mereen, nekusar, etc.
1x Mountain
4x plains
4x Swamp
1x Cavern of souls
1x Tainted field
1x Isolated chapel
1x Dragonskull summit
1x Sacred foundry
1x Battlefield forge
1x Caves of koilos
1x tainted peak
1x piranha marsh
1x city of brass
1x Command tower
1x Arid mesa
1x Bloodstained mire
1x Marsh flats
1x Tectonic edge
1x Godless shrine
1x Hall of the bandit lord
1x Sulfurous springs
1x Blood crypt
1x Bojuka bog
1x Boseiju, who shelters all
1x Shivan Gorge
1x Blackcleave cliffs
1x Clifftop retreat
1x Maze of ith
1x Homeward path
Mortify
wear/tear
Vyndicate
Path to exile
Anguished unmaking
Terminate
Dreadbore
Read the bones
Necropotence
Earnest fellowship
Apostle's blessing
Faith's shield
Armageddon
Wrath of god
Merciless eviction
Cataclysm
Enlightened tutor
Tithe (I will replace it with Land tax)
Dragon tempest
Swiftfoot boots
Lightning greaves
Good stuff
Defense grid (He will be replaced for great abolitioner)
Sensei's divining top (AKA the reason I sstarted play EDH)
Mimic vat (Candidate to leave the team, maybe for an MIraculous recovery)
Umezawa's JItte
Graveyard plays: 7
Buried alive
Entomb
Reanimate
Exhumate
Necromancy
Animate dead
Unburial rites
Mana rocks: 6
Mana vault
Orzhov signet
Boros signet
Sol ring
Talisman of indulgence
Rakdos signet
Magical dudes: 26
Restoration angel
Kiki-jiki, the mirror breaker
Bloodgift demon
Avacyn, angel of hope
Baneslayer angel
Gisela, blade of goldnight
Utvara hellkite
Sire of insanity
Steel hellkite
ANgel of despair
IOna, shield of emeria
Worldgorger DRagon (yes, the combo)
Dragon mage
Thundermaw hellkite
Rakdos the defiler (my 1vs1 hero of the day)
Admonition angel
Rune-scarred demon
ANgel of serenity
Harvester of souls
Master of cruelties (OP as hell even without Kaalia)
Balefire dragon
Sometimes I just think 100 cards are to few, I want to add other stuffs, matbe 1-2 extra board wipes (Damnation and Planar cleansing), sometimes I think my card draw is just too low, sometimes I feel I need a Reverberate but sometimes I just miss the 2nd red source
In a 1vs1 this decklist works really fine, but in a 4ppl table.... is a pain
I would love to read some advices on how to improve it and also on how to play some things, maybe you have some 'tricks' you want to share against blue mages
Thanks a lot in advance for your help
EDH: RWB Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
EDH: UWG Phelddagrif, The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
EDH: WUB Alela, Artful provocateur The current updated decklist is here
EDH: GB Hapatra, vizier of poisons The current updated decklist is here
Kaalia of the Vast 2017 - Multiplayer
And as a bonus, the last Dragonstorm attempt I made, now available in list form;
Kaalia of the Vast - Dragonstorm Outta Nowhere
Lastly, for those on a budget/on the fence about getting into Kaalia;
Kaalia of the Vast - The Baseline
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.