As to the main...well, idk but I'd have to imagine that's a pretty tough fit, all things considered.
That's what I thought. Your list is pretty tight, so I wasn't sure that a 4/3 flying angel with a good (but not necessarily must-have) ability would fit, so I wanted to confirm. Since it's an uncommon, it will be easy to obtain and test in various metas.
Do the skies really get that crowded? Since playing stormbreath dragon the only thing i actually miss abt tmaw is the additional 1 damage per turn. The worst i've seen as far as crowded skies is concerned is an opponent with 1 evasive blocker choosing between a trade with kaalia or chump blocking my beater. Other times it's clear skies, really. Could be a meta thing, since i did say i've never fought a sigarda. But aside from her, which matchups warrant those blinding light type of effects?
Do the skies really get that crowded? Since playing stormbreath dragon the only thing i actually miss abt tmaw is the additional 1 damage per turn. The worst i've seen as far as crowded skies is concerned is an opponent with 1 evasive blocker choosing between a trade with kaalia or chump blocking my beater. Other times it's clear skies, really. Could be a meta thing, since i did say i've never fought a sigarda. But aside from her, which matchups warrant those blinding light type of effects?
and I've slowly begun to realize that the Tower mostly just sits there and taps for mana because I forget to activate its ability plus I just don't have that many creatures to use it on in 1v1 (I run 12 ADDs). Do you guys still run this land? Would you run it in a Multiplayer variant? (in case I switch over out of necessity). I'm thinking a Sneak Attack and Phyrexian Tower
as for Ancient Tomb, too many colorless sources at the moment but would you run this and Phyrexian Tower and in a multiplayer variant? Since that build would run 16-18 ADDs and double colorless could help ramp and the sac effect "could be useful"
and I've slowly begun to realize that the Tower mostly just sits there and taps for mana because I forget to activate its ability plus I just don't have that many creatures to use it on in 1v1 (I run 12 ADDs). Do you guys still run this land? Would you run it in a Multiplayer variant? (in case I switch over out of necessity). I'm thinking a Sneak Attack and Phyrexian Tower
as for Ancient Tomb, too many colorless sources at the moment but would you run this and Phyrexian Tower and in a multiplayer variant? Since that build would run 16-18 ADDs and double colorless could help ramp and the sac effect "could be useful"
I run Phyrexian Tower in my multiplayer variant. It helps saves my creatures from an exiling effect, and it can occasionally be useful to use it to cast a spell that nobody was ever expecting. Players tend to count lands and artifacts, but they don't always remember Phyrexian Tower's second ability.
I've never been interested in Ancient Tomb in multiplayer, because while it does help you ramp mana for a bunch of A/D/Ds, those 2 points of damage begin to add up, and if 2 or more players decide to go against you, you will be in trouble. In multiplayer, I play a slightly slower game as I need to take out 3 players instead of one.
and I've slowly begun to realize that the Tower mostly just sits there and taps for mana because I forget to activate its ability plus I just don't have that many creatures to use it on in 1v1 (I run 12 ADDs). Do you guys still run this land? Would you run it in a Multiplayer variant? (in case I switch over out of necessity). I'm thinking a Sneak Attack and Phyrexian Tower
as for Ancient Tomb, too many colorless sources at the moment but would you run this and Phyrexian Tower and in a multiplayer variant? Since that build would run 16-18 ADDs and double colorless could help ramp and the sac effect "could be useful"
I find PhyTow acts like a Tower of the Magistrate in most games - a Wastes that has a beneficial effect in clutch moments. While this IS good, the fact remains if we're running a lower count, then this has an effectiveness that goes down. Similarly, Volrath's might also be a cut?? I admit Volrath's & PhyTow will decisively put in more work in a deck like my Alesha than this iteration of Kaalia. This is all assuming 1v1, ofc.
Which then means @ -2 colourless sources, I could justify Ancient Tomb at that point (and similarly Mana Crypt). The only reason I previously eschewed those was b/c I had a critical mass of colourless sources already.
Question to Yuji and 3drinks, how many colorless sources would you play in 1v1? and is the old mana ramp package obselete? I find myself wishing I had more at times
Question to Shiroe,
I have noticed that you run 7 colorless sources out of 38 lands, have u had problems with too many colorless sources in multiplayer?
if you dont mind me asking, you label your deck as semi competitive but you run a rather tight list, how would u scale your deck to a competitive label? (Other than MLD)
Question to Yuji and 3drinks, how many colorless sources would you play in 1v1? and is the old mana ramp package obselete? I find myself wishing I had more at times.
Ideally, I'd run Waste/Strip, Bandit Lord, Cavern, and Ancient Tomb. Then I have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, and I can try the Moxen again (though I don't much like them). I might run a Wastes, so I can have the seventh basic and still use Tainted Pact efficiently. Doing so would also justify running Thought-Knot Seer for another disruption, as well as Warping Wail for added protection.
The old two drop rocks seemingly conflict with your disruption, putting you in an awkward position of "do I ramp or peek at your hand?"
Hmmmmmmm..........I think I'm seeing another new direction in this deck's progression. Who'd have thunk, after creating this list in 2011, here we are five years latre and still busting it wide open.
Question to Shiroe,
I have noticed that you run 7 colorless sources out of 38 lands, have u had problems with too many colorless sources in multiplayer?
if you dont mind me asking, you label your deck as semi competitive but you run a rather tight list, how would u scale your deck to a competitive label? (Other than MLD)
I haven't had problems with my 7 colorless sources, but I'm sure eventually statistics will catch up with me. Volrath's Stronghold has saved me once, where an opponent tried to exile a creature card in my graveyard that I wanted to re-animate. Once I get Gisela, the Broken Blade, I would probably swap out Vault of the Archangel for a colored land, like Nomad Outpost.
If I need to scale for a really competitive build (excluding MLD), I would make a similar deck building decisions as 3drinks for 1 vs. 1 or Duel. First, I would add the ABUR dual lands for more colored mana lands. Add in Mana Crypt for additional acceleration. In an unknown competitive meta, I would expect blue-based decks, so I would add anything that would slow down blue's strategy down, but other than Defense Grid and Stranglehold, I don't know what else to add. Against three players, discard is not a good strategy, because you run out of discard cards fast. There are only a few cards that force all opponents to discard, and even fewer that forces all players to discard. All those discard cards don't have efficient casting costs, so that is why I focus on reanimation instead. In terms of creatures, make sure every creature has value beyond combat abilities like first strike, trample, etc. I'm not sure Master of Cruelties will work well in multiplayer, but it would likely take out one player quickly.
That was incredibly fast. Though I have yet to look over your deck thoroughly, our decks are incredibly similar http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalias-weapons-of-mass-land-destruction/
with main differences being: I have yet to cut the colorless lands like I plan to but I will take them out and slot in the OP ramps
Personally not a fan of the Eldrazi and thats probably why I won't run them
Apostle's Blessing is interesting, why not run Boros Charm instead due to its flexibility? Is it just to prevent Exile effects?
How has Bitterblossom worked out for you? Seems like we take quite a bit of damage already and the tokens will mostly be blockers
If they ever came out with a full cycle of Smoldering Marsh, would you run them all? I've never tested but with only 7 basics and needing 2 in play, wont it come in tapped almost always?
@ Shiroe
I run Master of Cruelties in my MP deck and I almost exclusively save it for the last player or when I desperately need to take out a dangerous player
So in MP, you would still consider the 2 mana rocks as good enough? Or would you replace them, ideally speaking
That was incredibly fast. Though I have yet to look over your deck thoroughly, our decks are incredibly similar http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalias-weapons-of-mass-land-destruction/
with main differences being: I have yet to cut the colorless lands like I plan to but I will take them out and slot in the OP ramps
Personally not a fan of the Eldrazi and thats probably why I won't run them
Apostle's Blessing is interesting, why not run Boros Charm instead due to its flexibility? Is it just to prevent Exile effects?
How has Bitterblossom worked out for you? Seems like we take quite a bit of damage already and the tokens will mostly be blockers
If they ever came out with a full cycle of Smoldering Marsh, would you run them all? I've never tested but with only 7 basics and needing 2 in play, wont it come in tapped almost always?
I find I rather blank their removal, regardless if it's bounce, destroy, or exile, whereas Charm only blanks a destroy. Blessing is also easier to cast as it asks for simply two life and one untapped land. I would even play Benevolent Bodyguard before I play Charm.
I think Thought-Knot Seer is really, really good, and should be played. Plus, I cracked a sick foil copy. I'd also much rather permanently take their card and give them a random draw when it dies, rather than giving the offending spell I didn't want to see back to them. Since we have the colourless to support it, we can also support Warping Wail (and Spatial Contortion, but I feel like I'm pretty good on creature removal). Having the pains AND filters really makes it all but elementary to ensure we have a colourless source to 'Drazi our opponents.
Blossom is there with the Jitte, b/c sometimes you need a backup. "Jitterblossom" will take over a game in and of itself (an interaction that Yuji and I discussed here several pages ago). It's worth noting this also gives our Kaalia "Protection from Edicts".
YES I would play the enemy cycle of Tangos! More fetchable duals is always good. To combat their EBT status, I find I generally fetch them first (like you would fnd the EoT tapped shock), knowing that if I need more, I can always go fetch into the shock untapped. Or I can fetch it tapped on their end step.
The craziest part of that list of mine, is that I have only two sweepers (and Fire Covenant isn't one of them, b/c Fellowship). Although I've never played many sweepers anyway.
@ Shiroe
I run Master of Cruelties in my MP deck and I almost exclusively save it for the last player or when I desperately need to take out a dangerous player
So in MP, you would still consider the 2 mana rocks as good enough? Or would you replace them, ideally speaking
I sometimes don't make it to the last player. But, you have a point about using Master of Cruelties against a dangerous player. In my games, I haven't had much luck with him, because my opponents often have blockers, which stop Master of Cruelties. Eventually, I just took him out. In more competitive games, which I suspect has more players trying to combo out, those opponents won't bother setting up blocking creatures, so Master of Cruelties is more potent.
As for your mana rocks comment, which 2 mana rocks are you talking about? I think I lost your context, so I don't know what you are referring to.
I should've been clearer, 2 mana rocks as in the Signets, the Talisman, Coldsteel Heart and Fellwar Stone. the reason I am bringing it up is because 3drinks made a very good point that the 2 CMC mana rocks create this "do i disrupt or ramp" scenario. In 1v1, I agree that discarding would be more valuable, curious what your thoughts are in MP
I'm very new to MP becasue i moved and my playgroup has almost no traditional 1v1 edh players (and very little DC), so I was hoping a MP vet could help out
I should've been clearer, 2 mana rocks as in the Signets, the Talisman, Coldsteel Heart and Fellwar Stone. the reason I am bringing it up is because 3drinks made a very good point that the 2 CMC mana rocks create this "do i disrupt or ramp" scenario. In 1v1, I agree that discarding would be more valuable, curious what your thoughts are in MP
I'm very new to MP becasue i moved and my playgroup has almost no traditional 1v1 edh players (and very little DC), so I was hoping a MP vet could help out
Thanks for the context. As I said previously, I don't think the discard package scales against 3 opponents. You could use your discard package to dismantle a dangerous player selectively, like you use Master of Cruelties, but I really don't believe you have enough discard cards to stop all 3 opponents. However, RBW has trouble against combo decks, so after a few games, if you find you're running into a lot of combo players, you may want to keep the discard package to snipe them selectively.
In my multiplayer deck, I focus more on my value creatures and the "long game," so I find mana ramping a bit more important, because I probably want to attack with Kaalia as soon as I get 4 mana, or I want to hard cast a creature if Kaalia is offline. In addition, although my deck doesn't have mass land destruction, if I do put such cards in, I'm most certainly going to want some mana rocks around.
I don't play in ultra-competitive metas like 3drinks has, so I don't run into too many combo or blue decks, and I usually get to the long game. But my experience with combo and blue decks has told me to pack MLD, Defense Grid, Stranglehold, or anything that slows them down. Also, 3drinks hates multiplayer politics, but I would brush up your diplomacy skills. It helps to make temporary alliances, at least in my games.
Off topic, but is the new card succumb to temptation worth playing over read the bones? It's an instant speed night's whisper for 3. Just wondering if the interrupt effect is at least worth considering over the scry 2. thanks
Duel commander update:
1.) Marath has been banned as a commander (Our dreams have come true)
2.) Treasure cruise is banned
3.) Necrotic ooze is banned
4.) Dig through time is banned
5.) Watchlist system abolished
6.) I'm so freaking happy
Fantastic for the Silverblack list too.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Retired Lists: Ghave - Hanna - Thrun - Zur
Pauper: Crypt Rats
It's uncommon, what do you expect lol?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Is the silverback list the commons/uncommons deck list?
If this is good enough for your main list, where would it go?
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
That's what I thought. Your list is pretty tight, so I wasn't sure that a 4/3 flying angel with a good (but not necessarily must-have) ability would fit, so I wanted to confirm. Since it's an uncommon, it will be easy to obtain and test in various metas.
Mainly Bitterblossom decks.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
and I've slowly begun to realize that the Tower mostly just sits there and taps for mana because I forget to activate its ability plus I just don't have that many creatures to use it on in 1v1 (I run 12 ADDs). Do you guys still run this land? Would you run it in a Multiplayer variant? (in case I switch over out of necessity). I'm thinking a Sneak Attack and Phyrexian Tower
as for Ancient Tomb, too many colorless sources at the moment but would you run this and Phyrexian Tower and in a multiplayer variant? Since that build would run 16-18 ADDs and double colorless could help ramp and the sac effect "could be useful"
I run Phyrexian Tower in my multiplayer variant. It helps saves my creatures from an exiling effect, and it can occasionally be useful to use it to cast a spell that nobody was ever expecting. Players tend to count lands and artifacts, but they don't always remember Phyrexian Tower's second ability.
I've never been interested in Ancient Tomb in multiplayer, because while it does help you ramp mana for a bunch of A/D/Ds, those 2 points of damage begin to add up, and if 2 or more players decide to go against you, you will be in trouble. In multiplayer, I play a slightly slower game as I need to take out 3 players instead of one.
I find PhyTow acts like a Tower of the Magistrate in most games - a Wastes that has a beneficial effect in clutch moments. While this IS good, the fact remains if we're running a lower count, then this has an effectiveness that goes down. Similarly, Volrath's might also be a cut?? I admit Volrath's & PhyTow will decisively put in more work in a deck like my Alesha than this iteration of Kaalia. This is all assuming 1v1, ofc.
Which then means @ -2 colourless sources, I could justify Ancient Tomb at that point (and similarly Mana Crypt). The only reason I previously eschewed those was b/c I had a critical mass of colourless sources already.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
This would mean I am running only 6 Colorless sources out 38 Lands and 3 "Fast Land Ramps"
My 6 colorless sources are Wasteland Strip Mine Rishadan Hall of the Bandit Lord Boseiju Cavern of Souls
My 3 Fast Land Ramps are Mox Diamond Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal (yuji's old/current package)
Question to Yuji and 3drinks, how many colorless sources would you play in 1v1? and is the old mana ramp package obselete? I find myself wishing I had more at times
Question to Shiroe,
I have noticed that you run 7 colorless sources out of 38 lands, have u had problems with too many colorless sources in multiplayer?
if you dont mind me asking, you label your deck as semi competitive but you run a rather tight list, how would u scale your deck to a competitive label? (Other than MLD)
Ideally, I'd run Waste/Strip, Bandit Lord, Cavern, and Ancient Tomb. Then I have Sol Ring and Mana Crypt, and I can try the Moxen again (though I don't much like them). I might run a Wastes, so I can have the seventh basic and still use Tainted Pact efficiently. Doing so would also justify running Thought-Knot Seer for another disruption, as well as Warping Wail for added protection.
The old two drop rocks seemingly conflict with your disruption, putting you in an awkward position of "do I ramp or peek at your hand?"
Hmmmmmmm..........I think I'm seeing another new direction in this deck's progression. Who'd have thunk, after creating this list in 2011, here we are five years latre and still busting it wide open.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I haven't had problems with my 7 colorless sources, but I'm sure eventually statistics will catch up with me. Volrath's Stronghold has saved me once, where an opponent tried to exile a creature card in my graveyard that I wanted to re-animate. Once I get Gisela, the Broken Blade, I would probably swap out Vault of the Archangel for a colored land, like Nomad Outpost.
If I need to scale for a really competitive build (excluding MLD), I would make a similar deck building decisions as 3drinks for 1 vs. 1 or Duel. First, I would add the ABUR dual lands for more colored mana lands. Add in Mana Crypt for additional acceleration. In an unknown competitive meta, I would expect blue-based decks, so I would add anything that would slow down blue's strategy down, but other than Defense Grid and Stranglehold, I don't know what else to add. Against three players, discard is not a good strategy, because you run out of discard cards fast. There are only a few cards that force all opponents to discard, and even fewer that forces all players to discard. All those discard cards don't have efficient casting costs, so that is why I focus on reanimation instead. In terms of creatures, make sure every creature has value beyond combat abilities like first strike, trample, etc. I'm not sure Master of Cruelties will work well in multiplayer, but it would likely take out one player quickly.
What's that?? (waiting to re-up the Primer specifics with this list with ample testing. who is excited to test with me??)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
with main differences being: I have yet to cut the colorless lands like I plan to but I will take them out and slot in the OP ramps
Personally not a fan of the Eldrazi and thats probably why I won't run them
Apostle's Blessing is interesting, why not run Boros Charm instead due to its flexibility? Is it just to prevent Exile effects?
How has Bitterblossom worked out for you? Seems like we take quite a bit of damage already and the tokens will mostly be blockers
If they ever came out with a full cycle of Smoldering Marsh, would you run them all? I've never tested but with only 7 basics and needing 2 in play, wont it come in tapped almost always?
@ Shiroe
I run Master of Cruelties in my MP deck and I almost exclusively save it for the last player or when I desperately need to take out a dangerous player
So in MP, you would still consider the 2 mana rocks as good enough? Or would you replace them, ideally speaking
I find I rather blank their removal, regardless if it's bounce, destroy, or exile, whereas Charm only blanks a destroy. Blessing is also easier to cast as it asks for simply two life and one untapped land. I would even play Benevolent Bodyguard before I play Charm.
I think Thought-Knot Seer is really, really good, and should be played. Plus, I cracked a sick foil copy. I'd also much rather permanently take their card and give them a random draw when it dies, rather than giving the offending spell I didn't want to see back to them. Since we have the colourless to support it, we can also support Warping Wail (and Spatial Contortion, but I feel like I'm pretty good on creature removal). Having the pains AND filters really makes it all but elementary to ensure we have a colourless source to 'Drazi our opponents.
Blossom is there with the Jitte, b/c sometimes you need a backup. "Jitterblossom" will take over a game in and of itself (an interaction that Yuji and I discussed here several pages ago). It's worth noting this also gives our Kaalia "Protection from Edicts".
YES I would play the enemy cycle of Tangos! More fetchable duals is always good. To combat their EBT status, I find I generally fetch them first (like you would fnd the EoT tapped shock), knowing that if I need more, I can always go fetch into the shock untapped. Or I can fetch it tapped on their end step.
The craziest part of that list of mine, is that I have only two sweepers (and Fire Covenant isn't one of them, b/c Fellowship). Although I've never played many sweepers anyway.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I sometimes don't make it to the last player. But, you have a point about using Master of Cruelties against a dangerous player. In my games, I haven't had much luck with him, because my opponents often have blockers, which stop Master of Cruelties. Eventually, I just took him out. In more competitive games, which I suspect has more players trying to combo out, those opponents won't bother setting up blocking creatures, so Master of Cruelties is more potent.
As for your mana rocks comment, which 2 mana rocks are you talking about? I think I lost your context, so I don't know what you are referring to.
I'm very new to MP becasue i moved and my playgroup has almost no traditional 1v1 edh players (and very little DC), so I was hoping a MP vet could help out
Thanks for the context. As I said previously, I don't think the discard package scales against 3 opponents. You could use your discard package to dismantle a dangerous player selectively, like you use Master of Cruelties, but I really don't believe you have enough discard cards to stop all 3 opponents. However, RBW has trouble against combo decks, so after a few games, if you find you're running into a lot of combo players, you may want to keep the discard package to snipe them selectively.
In my multiplayer deck, I focus more on my value creatures and the "long game," so I find mana ramping a bit more important, because I probably want to attack with Kaalia as soon as I get 4 mana, or I want to hard cast a creature if Kaalia is offline. In addition, although my deck doesn't have mass land destruction, if I do put such cards in, I'm most certainly going to want some mana rocks around.
I don't play in ultra-competitive metas like 3drinks has, so I don't run into too many combo or blue decks, and I usually get to the long game. But my experience with combo and blue decks has told me to pack MLD, Defense Grid, Stranglehold, or anything that slows them down. Also, 3drinks hates multiplayer politics, but I would brush up your diplomacy skills. It helps to make temporary alliances, at least in my games.
1.) Marath has been banned as a commander (Our dreams have come true)
2.) Treasure cruise is banned
3.) Necrotic ooze is banned
4.) Dig through time is banned
5.) Watchlist system abolished
6.) I'm so freaking happy
Full update with explanations in the official site:
http://www.duelcommander.com