I've found a Sunforger package helps with my multiplayer Kaalia deck. Ripping out a Boros Charm or a Ghostway can really help break symmetrical effects, plus the variety of other instants you can pull gives you a lot of chances to save yourself in the nick of time.
Ya, I was thinking I attack with Kaalia cast Twilight shepherd and then Wrath of god or something.
The Sunforger is an interesting idea the only problem I see is even if I already had it out it still costs 5 to search. It might not replace the spot of a straight up tutor but is an option if I need another thanks.
Alright I have made some changes with those suggestions. I went back and found a neat suggestion by 3drink's to add Academy Rector which is a cool way to get my enchantments going.
Ya, I was thinking I attack with Kaalia cast Twilight shepherd and then Wrath of god or something.
The Sunforger is an interesting idea the only problem I see is even if I already had it out it still costs 5 to search. It might not replace the spot of a straight up tutor but is an option if I need another thanks.
Alright I have made some changes with those suggestions. I went back and found a neat suggestion by 3drink's to add Academy Rector which is a cool way to get my enchantments going.
Kaalia -> Twilight Shepherd -> Board wipe is a long sequence of events. You need either 8 mana (4 to cast Kaalia + 4 to cast a typical board wipe) or 10 mana (6 to cast Shepherd + 4 to cast a typical board wipe). That's a risky play to me, but if it works in your playgroup, go for it. Generally, I make sure that if I cheat any creature in with Kaalia, it's going to have an immediate impact in combat (Rakdos the Defiler, Balefire Dragon, etc.). If I have to hard cast a creature, it has a ETB (Rune-scarred Demon, Angel of Despair). That way your mana expenditure is just what it takes to cast Kaalia.
I have used a Sunforger "package" in the past. It's fine, but I just didn't like to rely on a single card that takes 5 mana to get going. Sunforger has the same problem as Whispersilk Cloak. I had to make sure anything I tutor for from Sunforger had a CMC of 3 or less, so I could hardcast it. Academy Rector is much better at the tutoring, which makes it compatible with a lot of the enchantments in your deck already.
If your playgroup has lots of removal, then either Akroma is fine. If you are looking for more color protected creatures, try Stormbreath Dragon. It's a 4/4, but protection from white is generally relevant in most matchups. In addition, the monstrous ability will hit people who hoard cards in their hands (such as combo players).
Lastly, both 3drinks and I have employed Earnest Fellowship. It is a symmetrical effect that affects all players, but Kaalia is basically protected from the three colors with the most removal. Likewise, most of your creatures are protected from one or more colors. It's a good card if you want the game to go faster, and with 5 opponents, you may want to consider this.
Actually, with 5 opponents at the table, another card that makes the game go faster is Havoc Festival. It will clearly make you a target, but if you make it stick, your opponents will be within lethal damage range fairly quickly. If one of your opponents has 40 or more life (either because they haven't been attacked or through lifegain), this card will be a useful countermeasure.
What's the sweet spot on lands for this? Can Kaalia get away with 35?
No. Absolutely not. In fact, I don't even like playing less than thirty-seven (and would rather be on thirty-eight at the minimum).
Will the main decklist in the first post be updated to reflect this? All of the lists in the first post currently recommend 36 lands, I'm curious where cuts have been made
I've been on 36 and maybe just been lucky. Seems like I may even want to go up one or two.
You are just beating the probabilities of drawing needed land. Eventually, you will get a game here you aren't drawing enough land. Without mana rocks, you need 4 lands to cast Kaalia, so in one way, you have to view your chances in that light.
I run my multiplayer Kaalia at 38 lands and a good shuffle.
What's the sweet spot on lands for this? Can Kaalia get away with 35?
No. Absolutely not. In fact, I don't even like playing less than thirty-seven (and would rather be on thirty-eight at the minimum).
Will the main decklist in the first post be updated to reflect this? All of the lists in the first post currently recommend 36 lands, I'm curious where cuts have been made
Yeah, the initial play has been with 36 lands, a sol ring, and a smattering of diamonds & signets. The theory list, started by Yuji, suggested 38 lands with Moxen/Petal/Amulet for surprise factour, or just going to 40. I myself haven't been able to commit to testing this theory b/c my LGS is rather cutthroat, and Kaalia may not be a good fit (although I am hopeful, however I am still trying to ram my head into a wall with this Alesha build of mine).
However should the OG decklist change, then yes the thread will be updated to compensate.
Yeah, I have 36 with the standard artifact rocks and seem to be OK so far. 37 intrigues me but I'd be so torn on what to cut lol. Played a 4ish hour game between Roon, Ezuri, Nicol Bolas, Kaalia, and the Mizzix.
Played a BUNCH of multiplayer games and boy the hate is fierce against Kaalia. Mana seems to be perfect for me. I T4'ed Kaalia every game minus one, where she came out T3. If any of you are running a more reanimator-centric build, one all-star was Sheoldred, Whispering One paired with Karmic Guide. If you don't pay the echo cost, you can stack the triggers so Karmic Guide is sacked then brought back by Sheoldred, Whispering One reanimating another target from the graveyard. It took over the board one game.
Played a BUNCH of multiplayer games and boy the hate is fierce against Kaalia. Mana seems to be perfect for me. I T4'ed Kaalia every game minus one, where she came out T3. If any of you are running a more reanimator-centric build, one all-star was Sheoldred, Whispering One paired with Karmic Guide. If you don't pay the echo cost, you can stack the triggers so Karmic Guide is sacked then brought back by Sheoldred, Whispering One reanimating another target from the graveyard. It took over the board one game.
I need to play more 1v1 with her but she's a blast in Multiplayer. Make an ally early and go crush some faces.
That's awesome! Do you always run Kaalia out turn 4? I've only a few games with her, I don't like playing her without protection/haste. Otherwise it's extremely unlikely I'll untapped with her on board.
My LGS is doing a summer league for commander. My main commander is Eight-and-a-Half-Tails. I built it to go long term in a group setting. It's not very competitive (imo) but it's a ton of fun. Anyways, upon announcement I assumed they're talking 1v1 and since I was slowly turning the C15 Boros deck into Kaalia (long story short, a group of us were playing the C15 decks, minor changes each week), I decided I'd just run with it.
Of all the lists I've reviewed, I liked 3Drink's & Sanity's_Eclipse the best. I was borrowing from both, tho mostly from this primer.
So I went to play test it. Found out we're doing multiplayer, much to my dismay! I converted it to reanimator, bringing in the suggestions here. I'll keep the hand disruption so I can reconvert it accordingly.
I was wondering why no Living Death? Also, what's the thought on Doomed Necromancer? Seems like he'd fit right in with the recursion package.
Edit: Here's my Kaalia decklist. 8.5 for those interested as well.
If any of you are running a more reanimator-centric build, one all-star was Sheoldred, Whispering One paired with Karmic Guide. If you don't pay the echo cost, you can stack the triggers so Karmic Guide is sacked then brought back by Sheoldred, Whispering One reanimating another target from the graveyard. It took over the board one game.
I don't think this works since you have to choose the targets when you put triggers on the stack and in that time Karmic Guide is not yet in the graveyard.
Tho the advantage (compared to just targeting sheoldred's trigger to the creature you really want from the grave) is quite narrow anyway, a 2/2 flier with summoning sickness on the table for a turn.
It sounds like he was using Sheoldred to recycle Karmic to repeatedly bring back other creatures onto the battlefield that may have ETB abilities, not necessarily for combat purposes.
You are correct that he is playing the cards wrong. The abilities need valid targets when they trigger (put on the stack), not when they resolve. While both Karmic Guide and Sheoldred's "at the beginning of your upkeep" abilities go on the stack in the order of active player's choosing, Sheoldred cannot target Karmic Guide, as Karmic Guide isn't in the graveyard yet when targets need to be chosen.
You are correct that he is playing the cards wrong. The abilities need valid targets when they trigger (put on the stack), not when they resolve. While both Karmic Guide and Sheoldred's "at the beginning of your upkeep" abilities go on the stack in the order of active player's choosing, Sheoldred cannot target Karmic Guide, as Karmic Guide isn't in the graveyard yet when targets need to be chosen.
Thanks for the clarification. Seems like everyone missed that when I asked about it. I was basically going in this order:
Upkeep> Sacrifice Karmic Guide (Echo cost) > Sac resolves and placed in graveyard > Sheoldred trigger > bring back Karmic Guide > ETB trigger > Graveyard Trigger.
Well that's disappointing!
*EDIT* Was just told by a judge that I was doing it right, so now I'm confused. Basically you put Sheoldred's trigger on the stack first, then Karmic Guide. Karmic Guide's Echo trigger goes off, sacrifices Karmic Guide and places it in the Graveyard, then Sheoldred's trigger goes off, and now Karmic Guide is a valid target in the graveyard.
You are correct that he is playing the cards wrong. The abilities need valid targets when they trigger (put on the stack), not when they resolve. While both Karmic Guide and Sheoldred's "at the beginning of your upkeep" abilities go on the stack in the order of active player's choosing, Sheoldred cannot target Karmic Guide, as Karmic Guide isn't in the graveyard yet when targets need to be chosen.
Thanks for the clarification. Seems like everyone missed that when I asked about it. I was basically going in this order:
Upkeep> Sacrifice Karmic Guide (Echo cost) > Sac resolves and placed in graveyard > Sheoldred trigger > bring back Karmic Guide > ETB trigger > Graveyard Trigger.
Well that's disappointing!
*EDIT* Was just told by a judge that I was doing it right, so now I'm confused. Basically you put Sheoldred's trigger on the stack first, then Karmic Guide. Karmic Guide's Echo trigger goes off, sacrifices Karmic Guide and places it in the Graveyard, then Sheoldred's trigger goes off, and now Karmic Guide is a valid target in the graveyard.
JUDGE! haha
I'm just a Rules Advisor, but my understanding is that the target must be valid when the triggered ability is put on the stack. Therefore, at the beginning of your upkeep, when you decide to put Sheoldred's triggered ability on to the stack first, you need a valid target in your graveyard. At this point, Karmic Guide is not in your graveyard.
I also did some google searching for this interaction, and the results I found also confirmed this. I'm not sure if the rules have changed or whether the judge you discussed this with is wrong or confused.
Below are the rules from the latest comprehensive rules guide, dated Nov. 13, 2015.
114.1d A triggered ability is targeted if it identifies something it will affect by using the phrase
“target [something],” where the “something” is a phrase that describes an object, player, or
zone. The target(s) are chosen as the ability is put on the stack; see rule 603.3d.
603.3d The remainder of the process for putting a triggered ability on the stack is identical to the
process for casting a spell listed in rules 601.2c–d. If a choice is required when the triggered
ability goes on the stack but no legal choices can be made for it, or if a rule or a continuous
effect otherwise makes the ability illegal, the ability is simply removed from the stack.
Alright I was able to play test the deck. It didn't do to bad there was one game where i had land tax out turn one and all i drew were lands so with tower out i had a 28 card pure land hand. Other than that the draw was pretty solid and I won one out of 4 games i played with it in a 5 man group. I played Cataclysm + kaalia after someone board wiped with my Harvester of Souls on the battlefield so i was also able to draw 7 cards. I won pretty fast after that.
Some issues were actually not having some creatures in hand when I swung with Kaalia so I have added some card draw.
Akroma, Angel of Fury for Vindicate Maybe I should take out wrath instead? It can't be brought back by dance of the dead/animate dead/necromancy. Neither is amazing but it is still nice to have Angels in hand that are kind of sticky and Wrath is a good defender still which is sort of relevant. Sorin Markov for Erebos, God of the Dead This should probably be read the bones instead of Erebos but he does have a higher upside and we have a life gain deck in our play group which is nice to shut down so I gave Erebos the slight edge. Grave Betrayal for Necropotence Pretty easy call for me needed the card draw and Rector is going to search for Debtor's Kneel more often than Betrayal since it is always good where Betrayal needs some setup. Utvara Hellkite for Boros Charm The ability to dodge board wipes or save Kaalia is pretty big.
Unexpected MVP cards. Harvester of Souls I underrated this card in Kaalia he is pretty great since he will usually always get value by at least drawing one card since he isn't the most threatening thing on the board. People also might consider not board sweeping with him out. Master of Cruelties He ended up killing 2 people one guy out of the gate which I felt bad about but still awesome (its Kaalia multiplayer have to work to your strengths if you want to win at all). Then i grabbed him out of the Graveyard with Angel of Serenity and used him again after a board wipe to kill a guy at over 100 life.
So I am still looking for potential creature cards to move in and out. I used Wave of Aggression once to kill someone with Giselia and aggrevated assault. Not sure if this sub theme with those two and Aurelia are worth it, but so far they seem like solid choices. I just need to have the creatures to make it worth it usually which is where I am kinda stuck. That being said I think Aurelia is easy enough in most cases to hard cast and is very worth a spot in this deck not sure why you guys shy away from her. At worst she is a free cast 3/4 haste vigilance that has to die next turn which is solid in my book. She could bring attention, but in my circle the decks are all pretty crazy where often she doesn't.
Akroma, Angel of Fury for Vindicate Maybe I should take out wrath instead? It can't be brought back by dance of the dead/animate dead/necromancy. Neither is amazing but it is still nice to have Angels in hand that are kind of sticky and Wrath is a good defender still which is sort of relevant. Sorin Markov for Erebos, God of the Dead This should probably be read the bones instead of Erebos but he does have a higher upside and we have a life gain deck in our play group which is nice to shut down so I gave Erebos the slight edge. Grave Betrayal for Necropotence Pretty easy call for me needed the card draw and Rector is going to search for Debtor's Kneel more often than Betrayal since it is always good where Betrayal needs some setup. Utvara Hellkite for Boros Charm The ability to dodge board wipes or save Kaalia is pretty big.
Unexpected MVP cards. Harvester of Souls I underrated this card in Kaalia he is pretty great since he will usually always get value by at least drawing one card since he isn't the most threatening thing on the board. People also might consider not board sweeping with him out. Master of Cruelties He ended up killing 2 people one guy out of the gate which I felt bad about but still awesome (its Kaalia multiplayer have to work to your strengths if you want to win at all). Then i grabbed him out of the Graveyard with Angel of Serenity and used him again after a board wipe to kill a guy at over 100 life.
So I am still looking for potential creature cards to move in and out. I used Wave of Aggression once to kill someone with Giselia and aggrevated assault. Not sure if this sub theme with those two and Aurelia are worth it, but so far they seem like solid choices. I just need to have the creatures to make it worth it usually which is where I am kinda stuck. That being said I think Aurelia is easy enough in most cases to hard cast and is very worth a spot in this deck not sure why you guys shy away from her. At worst she is a free cast 3/4 haste vigilance that has to die next turn which is solid in my book. She could bring attention, but in my circle the decks are all pretty crazy where often she doesn't.
Vindicate is expensive to buy these days, but it is a "must-have" in just about any competitive deck with BW. I didn't realize you didn't have it in your list. That should always be in your deck. Although it's a sorcery, it takes out any permanent, including Planeswalkers (or some future card type that Wizards might invent).
Akroma, Angel of Fury is arguably weaker than Akroma, Angel of Wrath. Akroma, Angel of Fury doesn't have haste (which seems an odd exclusion given its color and flavor) and its morph and +1/+0 ability aren't that relevant in some matchups.
Eberos, God of the Dead can be useful as a card draw outlet. Alternatively, Painful Truths and Read the Bones have their own uses. Also, Necropotence is very useful for refilling your hand in multiplayer. As I noted in an earlier post, if you really want to stop that lifegain player, try Havoc Festival.
3drinks's deck focus on efficient creatures with ETB abilities or combat abilities that are not just damage, because in the competitive games, it's not just about dealing damage. A lot of threats happen through comboing and lockdown, so the creatures he picked try to attack those angles in some way.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath: Not my first pick, but if you need to dodge red and black removal often, this is OK.
Demon of Wailing Agonies: Too reliant on Kaalia to get its bonus. Would be fine in 1 vs. 1 or Duel, but not in multiplayer.
Stormbreath Dragon: As I mentioned in an earlier post, you should consider this. It has protection from white and haste, and its monstrous ability hurts players holding cards in their hands for comboing or countering.
Utvara Hellkite: It has flameblast syndrom. Pass for multiplayer.
Kokusho, the Evening Star: As I mentioned in an earlier post, this scales up with more players. Against 5 other players, when this creature dies, you get 25 life. Using this dragon will likely make the other players team up against you though.
Akroma, Angel of Fury: Not as potent as Angel of Wrath. Skip.
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen: Unless you can play a lot of lands on your turn, this creature is too weak in multiplayer. Skip
Aurelia has flameblast syndrome. Even if you hard cast it, you have to wait through 5 other players (at least the beginning), before you can attack with her. EDIT: Didn't read the card correctly.
Well Aurelia, the Warleader has Haste so my assumption is on the hard cast you mean each player has a chance at removing her with instants not going around the table again, I am not great with terminology still a little new to magic sorry. Removal is usually used pretty fast in our games and I am fine if they want to use removal on her since I run a lot of recursion. I feel Havoc Festival will get me more hate than Kokusho though since most people will not run into my Kokusho and just let it chill for the most part. Everyone is going to hate me for playing Havoc Festival even though they do for me playing things like Armageddon and cataclysm they usually can't do anything about it if those resolve lol.
I appreciate the advice again man I will keep at it and let you guys know. After this advice I think I will keep Angel of wrath add stormbreath and give Havoc festival a try. Maybe add back in Sorin or throw in read the bones instead not 100%.
I don't know if I will ever take Aurelia out she looks too cool lol.
Well Aurelia, the Warleader has Haste so my assumption is on the hard cast you mean each player has a chance at removing her with instants not going around the table again, I am not great with terminology still a little new to magic sorry. Removal is usually used pretty fast in our games and I am fine if they want to use removal on her since I run a lot of recursion. I feel Havoc Festival will get me more hate than Kokusho though since most people will not run into my Kokusho and just let it chill for the most part. Everyone is going to hate me for playing Havoc Festival even though they do for me playing things like Armageddon and cataclysm they usually can't do anything about it if those resolve lol.
I appreciate the advice again man I will keep at it and let you guys know. After this advice I think I will keep Angel of wrath add stormbreath and give Havoc festival a try. Maybe add back in Sorin or throw in read the bones instead not 100%.
I don't know if I will ever take Aurelia out she looks too cool lol.
I misread Aurelia's card text. Sorry about that! "Flameblast syndrome" was coined by 3drinks referring to the titular card, Flameblast Dragon. Basically, such cards have an ability phrased as "Whenever [this creature] attacks, [do something]." The problem is that these abilities do not trigger if they are put into the battlefield with Kaalia's ability. Aurelia's ability will work when you hard cast it, but it won't work if you put it directly into the battlefield from Kaalia. This likely means you will hold Aurelia in your hand until you can hard cast it, which makes it a little less strategically valuable than other creatures that have ETB abilities (Example: Angel of Despair), have activated abilities that are immediately usable (Example: Steel Hellkite), or do something during combat (Example: Balefire Dragon). If you look at 3drink's list of creatures, you'll see creatures that are probably better picks than Aurelia.
Regarding Havoc Festival, if you play with enough mana rocks, you can cast it and then destroy all lands with Armageddon. Your opponents can't team up against you if you have denied them mana. Erebos will work fine to stop the lifegain player and not incur as much attention from your opponents.
Ultimately, your card choices for your deck must consider what your local meta is doing. 3drinks has always said that his meta is cutthroat and highly competitive, so he is choosing the most efficient cards to deal with his meta. Your meta has a lot more players and sounds a little less competitive, so you can make different card choices.
Any suggestions on fighting through an oppressive Roon player? Once he starts blinking, it get's almost impossible to deal with him. More hand disruption and library hate? Is the only way to try and strip his pieces from the deck or deny him mana by destroying lands?
Any suggestions on fighting through an oppressive Roon player? Once he starts blinking, it get's almost impossible to deal with him. More hand disruption and library hate? Is the only way to try and strip his pieces from the deck or deny him mana by destroying lands?
Is there any more information you can share?
1) Is this 1 vs. 1 or multiplayer? (It sounds like 1 vs. 1.)
2) "Oppressive" implies a competitive, tuned deck. Is that correct?
3) What kind of cards are in this player's deck?
4) What kind of plays/card combos are allowing the player to "go infinite" with his blinking?
You probably have this in your deck already, but it sounds like you may need to board in Torpor Orb as part of the counter-strategy.
Any suggestions on fighting through an oppressive Roon player? Once he starts blinking, it get's almost impossible to deal with him. More hand disruption and library hate? Is the only way to try and strip his pieces from the deck or deny him mana by destroying lands?
Is there any more information you can share?
1) Is this 1 vs. 1 or multiplayer? (It sounds like 1 vs. 1.)
2) "Oppressive" implies a competitive, tuned deck. Is that correct?
3) What kind of cards are in this player's deck?
4) What kind of plays/card combos are allowing the player to "go infinite" with his blinking?
You probably have this in your deck already, but it sounds like you may need to board in Torpor Orb as part of the counter-strategy.
We mainly play multiplayer but it's not uncommon to play 1v1 before we begin a draft. I've definitely added Torpor Orb, as it shuts down another player pretty hard with their Ezuri deck.
Once he get's rolling, it's very hard to remove any of them because he can generally just blink something you're targeting. Or steal something. Or destroy a bunch of permanents. The decks is semi-tuned to be very competetive. It's a casual meta but everyone built degenerate, powerful decks (LOL). I've resorted to trying to target what you can before he get's the engine rolling but it's hard -- so many answers.
I added Scourge of Kher Ridges and Stormbreath Dragon. I think these are two solid impact cards and I was lower on D/D/A's than I liked I think this is a good # now.
My last little quandary is with Aggravated Assault. It has the upside of being tutor'd for by Academy Rector and Enlightened Tutor however it costs 8 if it comes from hand and it is very visible. Where as cards like Waves of Aggression, Savage Beating, and World at War are all much sneakier and have replay ability. I was wondering if any of you guys have played with these or had any general insight on which you would prefer. I think adding all of them would be a mistake since it really is just a finisher for me which is why currently I am leading towards Waves of Aggression or Savage Beating.
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The Sunforger is an interesting idea the only problem I see is even if I already had it out it still costs 5 to search. It might not replace the spot of a straight up tutor but is an option if I need another thanks.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia-multi-player-commander-deck/
Alright I have made some changes with those suggestions. I went back and found a neat suggestion by 3drink's to add Academy Rector which is a cool way to get my enchantments going.
Not sure what I want to replace the Akroma Angel's with the protection they get makes them rather sticky in my current groups meta. I was thinking Kokusho, the Evening Star. I also didn't see Thunder Dragon on anyone's list he seems ok. I wish Scourge of the Throne or Hellkite Charger worked haha.
Kaalia -> Twilight Shepherd -> Board wipe is a long sequence of events. You need either 8 mana (4 to cast Kaalia + 4 to cast a typical board wipe) or 10 mana (6 to cast Shepherd + 4 to cast a typical board wipe). That's a risky play to me, but if it works in your playgroup, go for it. Generally, I make sure that if I cheat any creature in with Kaalia, it's going to have an immediate impact in combat (Rakdos the Defiler, Balefire Dragon, etc.). If I have to hard cast a creature, it has a ETB (Rune-scarred Demon, Angel of Despair). That way your mana expenditure is just what it takes to cast Kaalia.
I have used a Sunforger "package" in the past. It's fine, but I just didn't like to rely on a single card that takes 5 mana to get going. Sunforger has the same problem as Whispersilk Cloak. I had to make sure anything I tutor for from Sunforger had a CMC of 3 or less, so I could hardcast it. Academy Rector is much better at the tutoring, which makes it compatible with a lot of the enchantments in your deck already.
If your playgroup has lots of removal, then either Akroma is fine. If you are looking for more color protected creatures, try Stormbreath Dragon. It's a 4/4, but protection from white is generally relevant in most matchups. In addition, the monstrous ability will hit people who hoard cards in their hands (such as combo players).
Lastly, both 3drinks and I have employed Earnest Fellowship. It is a symmetrical effect that affects all players, but Kaalia is basically protected from the three colors with the most removal. Likewise, most of your creatures are protected from one or more colors. It's a good card if you want the game to go faster, and with 5 opponents, you may want to consider this.
Actually, with 5 opponents at the table, another card that makes the game go faster is Havoc Festival. It will clearly make you a target, but if you make it stick, your opponents will be within lethal damage range fairly quickly. If one of your opponents has 40 or more life (either because they haven't been attacked or through lifegain), this card will be a useful countermeasure.
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
No. Absolutely not. In fact, I don't even like playing less than thirty-seven (and would rather be on thirty-eight at the minimum).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
Will the main decklist in the first post be updated to reflect this? All of the lists in the first post currently recommend 36 lands, I'm curious where cuts have been made
You are just beating the probabilities of drawing needed land. Eventually, you will get a game here you aren't drawing enough land. Without mana rocks, you need 4 lands to cast Kaalia, so in one way, you have to view your chances in that light.
I run my multiplayer Kaalia at 38 lands and a good shuffle.
Yeah, the initial play has been with 36 lands, a sol ring, and a smattering of diamonds & signets. The theory list, started by Yuji, suggested 38 lands with Moxen/Petal/Amulet for surprise factour, or just going to 40. I myself haven't been able to commit to testing this theory b/c my LGS is rather cutthroat, and Kaalia may not be a good fit (although I am hopeful, however I am still trying to ram my head into a wall with this Alesha build of mine).
However should the OG decklist change, then yes the thread will be updated to compensate.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
Also lived the dream with a T5 4 player scoop after a T4 Kaalia with Lightning Greaves (and haste from Hall of the Bandit Lord), dropping Avacyn, Angel of Hope, then T5 Armageddon. It was awesome.
I need to play more 1v1 with her but she's a blast in Multiplayer. Make an ally early and go crush some faces.
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
That's awesome! Do you always run Kaalia out turn 4? I've only a few games with her, I don't like playing her without protection/haste. Otherwise it's extremely unlikely I'll untapped with her on board.
My LGS is doing a summer league for commander. My main commander is Eight-and-a-Half-Tails. I built it to go long term in a group setting. It's not very competitive (imo) but it's a ton of fun. Anyways, upon announcement I assumed they're talking 1v1 and since I was slowly turning the C15 Boros deck into Kaalia (long story short, a group of us were playing the C15 decks, minor changes each week), I decided I'd just run with it.
Of all the lists I've reviewed, I liked 3Drink's & Sanity's_Eclipse the best. I was borrowing from both, tho mostly from this primer.
So I went to play test it. Found out we're doing multiplayer, much to my dismay! I converted it to reanimator, bringing in the suggestions here. I'll keep the hand disruption so I can reconvert it accordingly.
I was wondering why no Living Death? Also, what's the thought on Doomed Necromancer? Seems like he'd fit right in with the recursion package.
Edit: Here's my Kaalia decklist. 8.5 for those interested as well.
Kaalia of the Vast
It sounds like he was using Sheoldred to recycle Karmic to repeatedly bring back other creatures onto the battlefield that may have ETB abilities, not necessarily for combat purposes.
You are correct that he is playing the cards wrong. The abilities need valid targets when they trigger (put on the stack), not when they resolve. While both Karmic Guide and Sheoldred's "at the beginning of your upkeep" abilities go on the stack in the order of active player's choosing, Sheoldred cannot target Karmic Guide, as Karmic Guide isn't in the graveyard yet when targets need to be chosen.
Thanks for the clarification. Seems like everyone missed that when I asked about it. I was basically going in this order:
Upkeep> Sacrifice Karmic Guide (Echo cost) > Sac resolves and placed in graveyard > Sheoldred trigger > bring back Karmic Guide > ETB trigger > Graveyard Trigger.
Well that's disappointing!
*EDIT* Was just told by a judge that I was doing it right, so now I'm confused. Basically you put Sheoldred's trigger on the stack first, then Karmic Guide. Karmic Guide's Echo trigger goes off, sacrifices Karmic Guide and places it in the Graveyard, then Sheoldred's trigger goes off, and now Karmic Guide is a valid target in the graveyard.
JUDGE! haha
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
I'm just a Rules Advisor, but my understanding is that the target must be valid when the triggered ability is put on the stack. Therefore, at the beginning of your upkeep, when you decide to put Sheoldred's triggered ability on to the stack first, you need a valid target in your graveyard. At this point, Karmic Guide is not in your graveyard.
I also did some google searching for this interaction, and the results I found also confirmed this. I'm not sure if the rules have changed or whether the judge you discussed this with is wrong or confused.
Below are the rules from the latest comprehensive rules guide, dated Nov. 13, 2015.
EDIT: I see that you asked this in the Rulings forums, and you received the same answer I gave you from another judge.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/661585-judge-sheoldred-with-karmic-guide
It sounds like the first person you talked to gave you an erroneous ruling.
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
Some issues were actually not having some creatures in hand when I swung with Kaalia so I have added some card draw.
Akroma, Angel of Fury for Vindicate Maybe I should take out wrath instead? It can't be brought back by dance of the dead/animate dead/necromancy. Neither is amazing but it is still nice to have Angels in hand that are kind of sticky and Wrath is a good defender still which is sort of relevant.
Sorin Markov for Erebos, God of the Dead This should probably be read the bones instead of Erebos but he does have a higher upside and we have a life gain deck in our play group which is nice to shut down so I gave Erebos the slight edge.
Grave Betrayal for Necropotence Pretty easy call for me needed the card draw and Rector is going to search for Debtor's Kneel more often than Betrayal since it is always good where Betrayal needs some setup.
Utvara Hellkite for Boros Charm The ability to dodge board wipes or save Kaalia is pretty big.
Unexpected MVP cards. Harvester of Souls I underrated this card in Kaalia he is pretty great since he will usually always get value by at least drawing one card since he isn't the most threatening thing on the board. People also might consider not board sweeping with him out. Master of Cruelties He ended up killing 2 people one guy out of the gate which I felt bad about but still awesome (its Kaalia multiplayer have to work to your strengths if you want to win at all). Then i grabbed him out of the Graveyard with Angel of Serenity and used him again after a board wipe to kill a guy at over 100 life.
So I am still looking for potential creature cards to move in and out. I used Wave of Aggression once to kill someone with Giselia and aggrevated assault. Not sure if this sub theme with those two and Aurelia are worth it, but so far they seem like solid choices. I just need to have the creatures to make it worth it usually which is where I am kinda stuck. That being said I think Aurelia is easy enough in most cases to hard cast and is very worth a spot in this deck not sure why you guys shy away from her. At worst she is a free cast 3/4 haste vigilance that has to die next turn which is solid in my book. She could bring attention, but in my circle the decks are all pretty crazy where often she doesn't.
So since everyone and me to an extent down plays a lot of the creatures I was wondering if you guys thought any of these creatures beat out Akroma, Angel of Wrath. Demon of Wailing Agonies, Stormbreath Dragon, Utvara Hellkite, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Akroma, Angel of Fury, Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. These are some I thought of I am trying to see if i missed something that might be more impact than the Akroma's or possibly Utvara Hellkite.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/kaalia-multi-player-commander-deck/ <--- My deck list for those interested.
Vindicate is expensive to buy these days, but it is a "must-have" in just about any competitive deck with BW. I didn't realize you didn't have it in your list. That should always be in your deck. Although it's a sorcery, it takes out any permanent, including Planeswalkers (or some future card type that Wizards might invent).
Akroma, Angel of Fury is arguably weaker than Akroma, Angel of Wrath. Akroma, Angel of Fury doesn't have haste (which seems an odd exclusion given its color and flavor) and its morph and +1/+0 ability aren't that relevant in some matchups.
Eberos, God of the Dead can be useful as a card draw outlet. Alternatively, Painful Truths and Read the Bones have their own uses. Also, Necropotence is very useful for refilling your hand in multiplayer. As I noted in an earlier post, if you really want to stop that lifegain player, try Havoc Festival.
3drinks's deck focus on efficient creatures with ETB abilities or combat abilities that are not just damage, because in the competitive games, it's not just about dealing damage. A lot of threats happen through comboing and lockdown, so the creatures he picked try to attack those angles in some way.
Akroma, Angel of Wrath: Not my first pick, but if you need to dodge red and black removal often, this is OK.
Demon of Wailing Agonies: Too reliant on Kaalia to get its bonus. Would be fine in 1 vs. 1 or Duel, but not in multiplayer.
Stormbreath Dragon: As I mentioned in an earlier post, you should consider this. It has protection from white and haste, and its monstrous ability hurts players holding cards in their hands for comboing or countering.
Utvara Hellkite: It has flameblast syndrom. Pass for multiplayer.
Kokusho, the Evening Star: As I mentioned in an earlier post, this scales up with more players. Against 5 other players, when this creature dies, you get 25 life. Using this dragon will likely make the other players team up against you though.
Akroma, Angel of Fury: Not as potent as Angel of Wrath. Skip.
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen: Unless you can play a lot of lands on your turn, this creature is too weak in multiplayer. Skip
Aurelia has flameblast syndrome.
Even if you hard cast it, you have to wait through 5 other players (at least the beginning), before you can attack with her.EDIT: Didn't read the card correctly.I appreciate the advice again man I will keep at it and let you guys know. After this advice I think I will keep Angel of wrath add stormbreath and give Havoc festival a try. Maybe add back in Sorin or throw in read the bones instead not 100%.
I don't know if I will ever take Aurelia out she looks too cool lol.
I misread Aurelia's card text. Sorry about that! "Flameblast syndrome" was coined by 3drinks referring to the titular card, Flameblast Dragon. Basically, such cards have an ability phrased as "Whenever [this creature] attacks, [do something]." The problem is that these abilities do not trigger if they are put into the battlefield with Kaalia's ability. Aurelia's ability will work when you hard cast it, but it won't work if you put it directly into the battlefield from Kaalia. This likely means you will hold Aurelia in your hand until you can hard cast it, which makes it a little less strategically valuable than other creatures that have ETB abilities (Example: Angel of Despair), have activated abilities that are immediately usable (Example: Steel Hellkite), or do something during combat (Example: Balefire Dragon). If you look at 3drink's list of creatures, you'll see creatures that are probably better picks than Aurelia.
Regarding Havoc Festival, if you play with enough mana rocks, you can cast it and then destroy all lands with Armageddon. Your opponents can't team up against you if you have denied them mana. Erebos will work fine to stop the lifegain player and not incur as much attention from your opponents.
Ultimately, your card choices for your deck must consider what your local meta is doing. 3drinks has always said that his meta is cutthroat and highly competitive, so he is choosing the most efficient cards to deal with his meta. Your meta has a lot more players and sounds a little less competitive, so you can make different card choices.
Good luck!
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
Is there any more information you can share?
1) Is this 1 vs. 1 or multiplayer? (It sounds like 1 vs. 1.)
2) "Oppressive" implies a competitive, tuned deck. Is that correct?
3) What kind of cards are in this player's deck?
4) What kind of plays/card combos are allowing the player to "go infinite" with his blinking?
You probably have this in your deck already, but it sounds like you may need to board in Torpor Orb as part of the counter-strategy.
We mainly play multiplayer but it's not uncommon to play 1v1 before we begin a draft. I've definitely added Torpor Orb, as it shuts down another player pretty hard with their Ezuri deck.
Some of the problem childs it seems to be:
Mistmeadow Witch
Prophet of Kruphix
Conjurer's Closet
coalition relic
Gilded Drake
Terastodon
Once he get's rolling, it's very hard to remove any of them because he can generally just blink something you're targeting. Or steal something. Or destroy a bunch of permanents. The decks is semi-tuned to be very competetive. It's a casual meta but everyone built degenerate, powerful decks (LOL). I've resorted to trying to target what you can before he get's the engine rolling but it's hard -- so many answers.
GWUBAtraxa and Her Superfriends
WUB Oloro, the Life Drain Train
URG Animar, Soul of Elements
WBR Kaalia of the Vast
BWTeysa Karlov, Scion of Orzhov
R Purphoros, Goblins of Pain ($100 Budget Challenge)
U Talrand, Fun Police (Needs updating)
I added Scourge of Kher Ridges and Stormbreath Dragon. I think these are two solid impact cards and I was lower on D/D/A's than I liked I think this is a good # now.
My last little quandary is with Aggravated Assault. It has the upside of being tutor'd for by Academy Rector and Enlightened Tutor however it costs 8 if it comes from hand and it is very visible. Where as cards like Waves of Aggression, Savage Beating, and World at War are all much sneakier and have replay ability. I was wondering if any of you guys have played with these or had any general insight on which you would prefer. I think adding all of them would be a mistake since it really is just a finisher for me which is why currently I am leading towards Waves of Aggression or Savage Beating.