MTG Salvation

I agree. I think that these proposed changes (plus just the general direction of the meta) make an extremely graveyard based Karador viable again; no more Rock necessary!

Revamped the deck to take advantage of the banning of Humility, plus the unbanning of Bitterblossom and Hulk.

Hulk combo included into the deck. Look forward to seeing how it plays out.

Updated deck list contained in the original post.

You left out your Bile Urchin / Blood Cultist in your list. You can't actually insta-win with Protean Hulk with your current list. Just thought you should know

Is aggro never the option? And if no, would Lotleth Troll and/or Tarmogoyf fit in?

Also, Orzhoz Charm seems pretty good here.

That's entirely true.

-Razorverge Thicket (39 lands is probably overkill for the deck)
+ Saffi Eriksdotter

Adding Saffi lets you go infinite with Reveillark + Karmic Guide + Viscera Seer + Hulk. You still don't win on the spot, but you get infinite of everything in your deck, so its probably close enough. Its also more useful than Bile Urchin or Blood Cultist (and gets around leyline of sanctity for what that's worth).

Edit: Goyf + Lotleth Troll would be awkward as the lone aggressive cards in the deck (even if Lotleth Troll is slightly on theme because of the discard ability).

Orzhov Charm is better suited to a more rock version. I'm not worried about recurring the 1 mana creatures anyway (it's pretty easy to cast Karador with 1 mana open, and replay them while you still have priority).

Did you know your OP doesn't actually link to Karador's card?

Good point haha. Fixed.

I think the dredge version is much better. The combo version doesn't really have that many more ways to get Protean Hulk into your graveyard, and thus plays a gameplan that is heavily reliant on lucking into your win condition.

Meanwhile, the dredge version is no weaker to GY hate (though no stronger either) and can stall the game out more than amptly until you can successfully protect the Protean Hulk wn.

I'm pretty amazed how the unbanning of one card let a Tier B-Low Tier A deck become so much stronger and scary. After talking with a few of the French players and Cockatrice players it's become evident that this is most likely might be one of the decks to beat in the coming months.

I too am a fan of the dredge line of thinking in that you don't need to completely lean on the combo to win. In fact, Karador has like 3-4 win conditions already packed inside of it.

1) Aggro beats with the help of Elesh Norn
2) Survival comboes with the help of Loyal Retainers and Iona/Elesh/Grisel
3) Combo wins with Hulk and Seer
4) Karador lock with Spore frog

Is there any deck that Karador doesn't match up well against? The only one I can think of is Zur because he toolboxes Rest in Peace and shuts the game down instantly.

EDIT:
[16:28] Evergreen: it's really good
the biggest problem w karador before was that it was too slow
so decks like iname, wanderer, animar etc all could win much faster
but this gives them a way to win very quickly
and still have crazy inevitability in the late game

In addition to that, Zur might get tied up with Karador... I've seen a lot of Zur arming Rest in Peace and Animate Dead just to disrupt you guys. It drastically shift the meta BEFORE the official ban date.

Turn 4 Frog is always annoying for me.

Quote from perfekt

Is there any deck that Karador doesn't match up well against? The only one I can think of is Zur because he toolboxes Rest in Peace and shuts the game down instantly.

Even if Zur is the only deck Karador loses to, its a significant weight over how the deck can be built.

It means you proactively have to avoid many of the cards you'd like to play (Bone Shredder, Spore Frog, etc.) simply to avoid having dead cards against Zur. That's not to say Zur is unwinnable, but its definitely a difficult matchup that you need to be as positive as possible.

Edit: A number of changes after testing

-Iona
-Bitterblossom
+Elesh Norn
+Yosei

More reliable win conditions. Bitterblossom isn't even that good turn 2, simply because this deck can't put any additional pressure. Bitterblossom is good, but only when you're playing the cards to back it up. Iona is also just not reliable enough in a multicolor meta, especially one where the colors are W + B, meaning Iona is almost guaranteed to still eat removal.

-Mindslicer
+Sin Collector

Mindslicer is competing with better cards at 4 mana, and I think Sin Collector is a better repeat effect.

-Golari Thug
Not an upgrade type change. I just found the thug the weakest dredge card by far to draw (the on death ability is super annoying since its not a may)

-Wood Elves
Additional change. Wood Elves just isnt that this deck wants to be doing with 3 mana. I felt too often like I had too much ramp.

+Academy Rector
+Pattern of Rebirth
+Carrion Feeder

Additional slots to speed up the combo, and an additional sac outlet (since viscera seer has been caught in the GY before with Karador dead, and me stuck not being able to win that turn)

And finally, because both Pattern of Rebirth, NO, and Garruk 3.0 are in,
-Teeg

I know you have a good mu with Maelstrom, have you find a deck that's a bad matchup for Karador.

I haven't seen them in action so my interpretation for the matchup is inconclusive.

anyone have an updated list of this? been looking at this guy as my new edh general.

Quote from Uzagonner

anyone have an updated list of this? been looking at this guy as my new edh general.

The original post has the updated decklist I'm playing.

Also, most recent change.

-Elesh Norn
+Griselbrand

Agree with Jibux on this one.

As for Animar matchup, let's just say don't bank on winning it. If that really concerns you, add Beast Within, and Orzhov Pontiff (in addition to Ulvenwald Tracker which Im already playing)

Quote from Lyserg

Fluxuate : I think your build is a bit all over the place. You have some dredge, some removal, some Hulk combo part but no real gameplan you are trying to execute. The removal package is not needed in the combo version because you have many tutors + 3 creature-removal for the important ones and comboing off just trumps any number number a creature an aggro deck would provide (which is generally a very, very positive MU).

I agree entirely, but the removal isn't there for aggro decks, it's there for Zur.

After having thought about it, I can't see any way for the all-in-combo version to prevent
Turn 2: Signet
Turn 3: Zur
Turn 4: Rest in Peace

Except of course with removal. Given that one of your creature removal is Bone Shredder, you basically have 2/99 cards to not ensure an immediate guaranteed loss to Zur.

I don't really think having a 100% loss rate to the best deck in the format is an acceptable game plan. And to avoid that, I think its necessary to dilute the game plan to some extent.

As per multiple suggestions, I'll try out a more combo oriented build of the deck and see how it goes.

-Golgari Grave Troll
-Grisly Savage
-Greenseeker
-Garruk Relentless
-Phyrexian Arena

+Necromancy
+Recurring Nightmare
+Aven Mindcensor
+Wood Elves
+Vindicate

After recent testing, I will concede defeat and admit the all in combo version really is preposterously strong.

My only problem was I sometimes found I might run out of gas if I didnt assemble the full combo (Karmic Guide with nothing to recur = sad times), so I want more bombs.

With that in mind I'm cutting Unburial Rites (which lacks decent targets now, and can't even really be dredged anyway), and putting in Sun Titan, which has a lot of sweet targets now that Saffi / Recurring Nightmare / and Necromancy are in (credit to HansonWK for the suggestion).

Noticed the deck list is out of sync with the change log. From what I can tell;
-Greenseeker
-Unburial Rites
+Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
+Sun Titan

Also now that you're running Recurring Nightmare, any thoughts on Kokusho, the Evening Star?

I'm curious why you didn't include Voice of Resurgence? Is he mostly for aggro/control-ish decks like Rafiq and Teeg?

Speaking of Hobbit, I've seen people using Teegs for its meta online. On turn 2, he managed to get 1-2 tokens and beat the snot out of blue players. Is he worth a spot in your deck?

This may be a silly question, but I have not played for a number of years and I am just getting back into the game, but is there a reason why the deck is running City of Brass instead of Murmuring Bosk, aside from coming into play tapped, of course.

What meta did you faced in your tourney aside from Geist?

And congrats on your win!

Not bad. I was hoping to see Hulk-Flash!

Well done Lyserg!

Quick question:

Was Sin Collector your only form of hand disruption? Do you not like Mesmeric Fiend or Tidehollow Sculler?