MTG Salvation

If you're going to include the Harmonic Sliver, why not also add the Necrotic Sliver then? +1 recurring Aura Shards, basically.
Also surprised to not see Doomed Necromancer and Hell's Caretaker on lists.

Some other cards in my Karador deck:
Moonlight Bargain
Grimoire of the Dead (WinCon?)
Glory
Grindclock
Crime/Punishment
Big Game Hunter
Avatar of Woe
Demonic Collusion (with Discard Buyback make sense here)
Hunting Grounds (Threshold make sense here, no?)
Debtors Knell (if you're milling everyone with Mesmeric Orb, make sense to me)



Again, I'm not playing "French rules" here, but still thought I'd share.

Tried Necro Sliver, Doomed Necromancer, and Doomed Necromancer. They're too slow for it.

As for sliver, you need to cast 6 to pop something every turn. It's bit hard against a fast deck. Unless you can cast Primeval Titan early game.

Moonlight Bargain= bit in the grave

Grimoire of the Dead= expensive, discard fodder

Punishment= is a much more interesting once it's in your hand.

Avatar of Woe= Needs haste

Debtors Knell= expensive, discard fodder


French competitive or 1v1 competitive is much more brutal than you imagine. As for Karador, you rely mostly on creatures in the grave for commander cost and toolbox utilities. Most French decks are leaning towards competitive side and they're fast.

Quote from Acardus

Tried Necro Sliver, Doomed Necromancer, and Doomed Necromancer. They're too slow for it.

As for sliver, you need to cast 6 to pop something every turn. It's bit hard against a fast deck. Unless you can cast Primeval Titan early game.

Moonlight Bargain= bit in the grave

Grimoire of the Dead= expensive, discard fodder

Punishment= is a much more interesting once it's in your hand.

Avatar of Woe= Needs haste

Debtors Knell= expensive, discard fodder


French competitive or 1v1 competitive is much more brutal than you imagine. As for Karador, you rely mostly on creatures in the grave for commander cost and toolbox utilities. Most French decks are leaning towards competitive side and they're fast.

Fair points. I still think I'd find room for Mesmeric Orb, though.

Quote from Balmer

Fair points. I still think I'd find room for Mesmeric Orb, though.

The problem with the Orb is that it doesn't do anything. If you're going to play something in this format, it had better do something useful. Mesmeric Orb does nothing to effect the board state, is only decent when you're already winning, and doesn't change much about the game.

Orb is fairly bad.

Quote from Gaka

The problem with the Orb is that it doesn't do anything. If you're going to play something in this format, it had better do something useful. Mesmeric Orb does nothing to effect the board state, is only decent when you're already winning, and doesn't change much about the game.

Orb is fairly bad.

Something useful? Like...put 5-8 cards in your graveyard, per turn? Seems useful to me, if Karador is your commander.

What does that accomplish?
Gives your enough creatures to cast Karador for 3 mana, if you haven't already.
Gives you 3-4 more creatures to cast from if Karador is on the board (if Doomed Necro or Hell's Caretaker is on the board already, then that Sun Titan just cost you one mana (plus the 3 for Necro originally).
Gives you more abilities to copy with Necrotic Ooze, too.
It also mills your opponents, which gives more targets for Puppet, for Geth (in my deck, at least), etc., and potentially removes your opponents best cards.

Maybe that's just not how your deck rolls. I know it's French and all.

Quote from Balmer

Something useful? Like...put 5-8 cards in your graveyard, per turn? Seems useful to me, if Karador is your commander.

What does that accomplish?
Gives your enough creatures to cast Karador for 3 mana, if you haven't already.
Gives you 3-4 more creatures to cast from if Karador is on the board (if Doomed Necro or Hell's Caretaker is on the board already, then that Sun Titan just cost you one mana (plus the 3 for Necro originally).
Gives you more abilities to copy with Necrotic Ooze, too.
It also mills your opponents, which gives more targets for Puppet, for Geth (in my deck, at least), etc., and potentially removes your opponents best cards.

Maybe that's just not how your deck rolls. I know it's French and all.

You're staring at an unfavorable board. If you draw a body or removal, you can stabilize to pull out a win. Instead, you topdeck Mesmeric Orb. Your opponent untaps, mills ten cards he doesn't much care about, and kills you.

It doesn't do anything relevant to the board. It's a terrible topdeck, you only want to see it when you're already ahead, your opponent shouldn't care much about the ability, and it opens you to graveyard hate a lot quicker than other methods. Mill eight cards, draw step, and get hit with a crop rotation'd bojuka bog. Those eight cards you had no control over milling. Now, traditional methods allow you to control the speed at which you dump stuff to the graveyard, and can fight through or around hate without walking right into it.

Instead of eight every turn, 3 or so here, one here, two there, until you pile up the card advantage and win. Or you can dump your grave into the library and kill yourself through too MANY options, and only if you actually have Karador on the field. In fact, it's a sort of win-con in itself... for your opponents. All they need to do is keep Karador off the field, and you're forced to mill yourself to death. Yes, you don't need to tap things, but then your opponent is winning the tempo match, and this is a highly tempo oriented meta.

All of the situations you outlined just prove how bad the orb is. All of them were advantages for cards you've already got out, and are active. When you've got an untapped active Necrotic Ooze, mesmeric orb might be helpful to pitch something it can use. But it's not necessary. It's winmore in a deck that can't rely on winmore cards. If it does, the sheer level of irrelevancy will make it unplayable.

How much does this deck rely on Survival of the Fittestand/or Loyal Retainers? I have had Doran in my gauntlet but it isn't really that great. I have been thinking about switching to Karador. Is he viable if either or both of those cards gets banned? (Just rumors but something to think about)

Have you considered Oath of Druids? It fills your graveyard and gives you a creature at the same time!

Quote from Ted Elderhi

Have you considered Oath of Druids? It fills your graveyard and gives you a creature at the same time!

It also requires you to have less creatures on the battlefield than your opponent. With this deck, it's highly unlikely that it will trigger positively.

With painter's servant being unbanned, wouldn't it be a snap addition to this deck due to its interaction with Iona? That lock is a great win con.

Painter's Servant is only good with Iona, and Iona by herself should win most games anyway. Not worth it.

Kokusho is 6 mana for a death effect that is equally irrelevant (life totals don't really matter in French EDH, especially not for an attrition-combo deck like Karador).

Thalia looks good. I would consider cutting Teeg for her, as he's become increasingly irrelevant in such a low-curve meta. Thalia also does blocking and attacking like a boss.

Quote from Fluxuate

Thalia looks good. I would consider cutting Teeg for her, as he's become increasingly irrelevant in such a low-curve meta. Thalia also does blocking and attacking like a boss.

Yeah, but don't forget that Teeg can stop wraths, Jace 2.0, GSZ, and Fow... all of which see heavy play.

Looks like this deck will be harder to play in real life now. Loyal retainers sold like hotcakes today on ebay because it was a one of in the winning legacy decklist at the SCG open.

Uvenwald Tracker is definitely worth playing.
Somberwald Sage might be worth it (though I'm skeptical)
Agree that Sigarda is not really fit for Karador.

Overall, very little for Karador from this set.

Quote from Lyserg

I'm actually playing Acidic slime. The Stinkweed Imp doesnt work :/

I dont know which creature with deathtouch worth playing. Maybe a random 1/1 for 1 deathtouch because you can tutor Tracker + this one with Ranger of Eos

Well you dont really use Stinkweed Imp for destroy, you use it for the Dredge effect

Im just getting into commander i play on mtgo i am toying with a kaalia list a mimeoplasm and a karador list i absolutly love karador it feels far stronger than my other decks i feel the longer the game goes the more it turns in my favor and honestly i dont even have any dredge cards in yet im going to rework another list with dredge and see how it goes but i like the deck kudos

I've been playing this deck a lot recently (Edric gets old). I think one of the new cards that should be added in is Griselbrand. Normally my go to Legend is Elesh, but I've been testing Grisel as my Retainers target and it is fantastic. Not only does it let you continue to dredge, but you re-fill your hand with valuable lands. A lot of the time, you slowly run out of gas midgame until you can cast karador but Grisel just gives you pure card advantage again. And sneaking him into play is fairly easy. His ability is a little costly (-7 life is nothing to sneeze at) but since he has lifelink, you'll keep you healthy in pinch situations. I think this card needs to be tested and examined more.

I, too, have been testing this deck. Mostly for the last week.

Originally it started out as convenient one-stop-argument to illustrate why certain cards have been considered on the 1v1 Ban list (Cavern of Souls, Survival of the Fittest, Loyal Retainers, Skullclamp, Sylvan Library, Demonic Tutor). I've got a personal vendetta vs Cavern of Souls (as a control player, as well as someone who values interaction), and it seemed obvious to me that this would be the best deck to illustrate that.

However, I've since fallen in love with this deck. Cavern is mindless, as to be expected, but the amount of decision making in this deck is unreal. Little mistakes cost you everything. Complex decision paths will lead to unbeatable board positions. I'm inspired to learn the ins and outs of this thing, and I'm pretty sure I'll be better for it, afterward.

Now that I'm hooked, and have completely read through this entire thread, I've got some feedback based on my own early observations as well as conversations with Fluxuate himself.

1. The Humility problem
This deck cannot deal with a resolved Humility. It's incredibly frustrating to grind out a game for 20-30 minutes, only to have that drop, and then just flat out lose. Obvious inclusion should be Ray of Revelation, since you can still be dredging with Humility in play.

2. Creature Theft
Getting Karador stolen at the wrong time has been a big issue for me. Whether it's Treachery, Vedalken Shackles, or Sower of Temptation, if the appropriate answer is already in the graveyard, you might have just lost Karador for the rest of the game. That's not cool. I think Volrath's Stronghold could be a good plan B to get the right answer to whatever is stealing Karador, get him back, and resume shenanigans. Also, Stony Silence / Null Rod to deal with Shackles. Notice that Ray also deals with Treachery & Co. Cabal Pit is another answer you can get back with Life from the Loam to deal with Sower, or a lot of other dudes. Threshold shouldn't be a problem, here.

3. Graveyard Hate
Other than Bojuka Bog, Scavenging Ooze, and Shred Memory, most gy hate I see is in artifact form like Nihil Spellbomb, Phyrexian Furnace, Relic of Progenitus, and Tormod's Crypt. Stony Silence / Null Rod might be good, here, too?

I haven't had enough experience with Animar / Geist yet to be able to comment on those matchups, but it seems Animar is really tough, and Geist could go either way. Stoked to get more testing in and find out for myself.

Changes I'll be testing soon:
+1 Ray of Revelation, -1 Hymn to Tourach
+1 Stony Silence, -??
+1 Cabal Pit, -1 Forest
+1 Volrath's Stronghold, -1 Twilight Mire
+1 Raven's Crime, -1 Thoughtseize
+1 Dakmor Salvage, -1 Wooded Bastion
+1 Worm Harvest, -1 Living Death

I hate the filter lands, so I'll probably cut Fetid Heath and one of the green ones for Pit and Stronghold.

Raven's Crime seems insane in this list, and I was glad to see Khymera thought of this, too. Most of the time, Thoughtseize ends up being stuck in my grave and I have to use Witness to get it back. Seems like I could be using her for better things. Again, Loam pretty much breaks Crime. On a similar note, Worm Harvest also seems more promising than Living Death for the same reasons.

By including Crime and Harvest, Dakmor Salvage now makes sense.

Thoughts?

I've been playing this deck for about a month in a non-french environment (sol ring, mana crypt, etc) so the meta is probably very different.

1. The Humility problem
This deck cannot deal with a resolved Humility. It's incredibly frustrating to grind out a game for 20-30 minutes, only to have that drop, and then just flat out lose. Obvious inclusion should be Ray of Revelation, since you can still be dredging with Humility in play.

I play pernicious deed as a generic answer. It goes well with a Sun Titan soft lock and call kill random hard to deal with permanents. It does kill a lot of my own permanents, but creatures in the graveyard isn't totally a bad thing.

2. Creature Theft
Getting Karador stolen at the wrong time has been a big issue for me. Whether it's Treachery, Vedalken Shackles, or Sower of Temptation, if the appropriate answer is already in the graveyard, you might have just lost Karador for the rest of the game. That's not cool. I think Volrath's Stronghold could be a good plan B to get the right answer to whatever is stealing Karador, get him back, and resume shenanigans. Also, Stony Silence / Null Rod to deal with Shackles. Notice that Ray also deals with Treachery & Co. Cabal Pit is another answer you can get back with Life from the Loam to deal with Sower, or a lot of other dudes. Threshold shouldn't be a problem, here.

I play in a sol ring environment, hence, Viridian Shaman, Harmonic Sliver, Wickerbough Elder, Acidic Slime, Quasali Pridemage, Ogtubi Orangatun, Sylvlok Replica are all in the deck. In addition, I play Mother of Runes, Viscera Seer and Phyrexian Tower. All of these help deal with theft. I've been thinking about adding Homeward Path and Sylvan Safekeeper but havent tried them yet.

3. Graveyard Hate
Other than Bojuka Bog, Scavenging Ooze, and Shred Memory, most gy hate I see is in artifact form like Nihil Spellbomb, Phyrexian Furnace, Relic of Progenitus, and Tormod's Crypt. Stony Silence / Null Rod might be good, here, too?

I haven't lost to graveyard removal yet. I play card draw (Phyrexian Arena, Necropotence, Grisebrand, Ohran Viper, Dark Confidant, Sylvan Library, Skullclamp, Stoneforge Mystic to get Skullclamp) so that even if they remove the graveyard there is gas left to win the game.

On a side note. I added in Griselbrand and removed Iona. Iona is way more powerful in my opinion, however, Griselbrand games are more interactive. From a pure power perspective I would play Iona over Griselbrand in a heart beat. Plus, you can pod into Iona if Karador is in play!

Just building this deck, so I don't have any play experience with it yet, but here's some thoughts for other inclusions:

Haakon, Stromgald Scourge + Nameless Inversion: Solid repeatable removal, Haakkon also lets you replay Knight of the Reliquary.

Reassembling Skeleton: Cheap Skullclamp fodder with built-in recursion.

Genesis: Provides a second way to recur your grave and to soft-lock with Spore Frog or hard lock with Yosei, The Morning Star (Mana intensive though)

Proclamation of Rebirth: Soft lock with Spore Frog, but probably too mana intensive to be useful.

Gigapede: Free discard outlet. Although possibly not relevant enough as a creature.

Time of Need: Yosei grabber.

Enduring Renewal: Nothing lost by playing it, as anything going to the grave becomes a Karador target. Serves as a backup to Karador when he dies.

Mindlash Sliver: When your opponent is down to 0 cards in hand, can lock them out in combination with Karador (Sac at end of draw step)

Undead Gladiator: Discard outlet.

Glory: Free protection, but may cost too much to be viable.

Rootrunner: Locks an opponent out of drawing new cards (Put a land back on top each turn). 2GGGG is probably hard to pull off though. Bonus: Also recurs various spirits.

Tilling Treefolk: A weaker version of Life from the Loam, playable off of Karador?

what do you guys think about Bazaar of Baghdad? does it worth a spot? plan to get one next week

I throw in a terastadon regardless of the downfalls. My main opponent likes to use a lot of artifacts and runs super friends in his damia deck. Gets rather annoying so having three permanent removals never hurts. Going to order a windfall primus and use that as a replacement for terastadon

I agree with PtaQ that grisly salvage is a worthwhile card. The other day my top 5 cards were 4 lands and knights of the reliquary.

Quote from PtaQ

What do you think about Hokori, Dust Drinker as next Yosei, the Morning Star in deck? Ofc you need sacrifice him at end of enemy turn

You can easy tutor Hokori, Dust Drinker from Captain Sisay and can't be countered from Cavern of Souls

Yosei is leagues better than Hokori. Hokori hurts you more than it does your opponent at times.. there are zero legitimate reasons to run him at all.

I agree, Hokori seems just overall not good enough.

More importantly, I've escaped alive from finals, and have time again to work on our favorite Graveyard abuse Centaur...Spirit...Thingy.

Given Edric's banning, Karador can be drastically overhauled, to take advantage of the new meta filled with extinction type control decks, that abuse huge CMC generals and ramp to win the game.

This means I'm looking at axing many of the cards like Spore Frog, and Peacekeeper to instead fit in cards like Acidic Slime.

Similarly, I think that Elesh Norn has outlived her usefulness, and is much better replaced by Iona.

Regardless, these are just musings, and Ill try and get a more constructive decklist finished sometime soon. But if you have suggestions, I'd love to hear them!

Has anyone thought of using Altar of DementIa? I found it useful against board wipes orother forms of control.