I have to disagree. Look at Narglfrob's tournament results: he just beat a Grand Arbiter list with about 30 counterspells, and he beat Killkeny's control Sharuum too. I've found that the deck is heavily favored against Sygg, which also has plenty of disruption. Generals like Azami and Zur are barely even relevant because this deck's fundamental turn occurs before those generals are played. With the possible exception of Clique, none of the blue decks consistently have multiple counterspells up by turn 3. And that's what is necessary to have a shot against Hermit Druid. Clique probably does beat this deck, but Clique is equally broken and beats all combo decks, so what did you expect.
I don't think color pie balancing is an appropriate way to balance a format. Saying that Hermit Druid is fine because it isn't a blue deck is meaningless. Especially because you do need to be playing blue to abuse it. I know you've included a Hermit Druid combo into Adun, Moondust, but it's only fair in that deck. Without Narcomoba and to some extent Fatestitcher, your list is much slower and fairer. You're even playing basics. In your deck, Hermit Druid is reasonable. In a deck like this one though, which goes all out to abuse it, it's much more degenerate.
lol Khymera you give me so little credit. My GAA list runs less than 20 counters and plenty of dead/irrelevant cards. I think the matchup is favorable for me if I didn't draw so poorly and if Narglfrob didn't go turn 1 disruption -> turn 2 hermit games 2 and 3. The updated GAA list also has a few more cheap counters and better spot removal, and kicking out a lot of the useless stuff.
That said, I still think hermit is kind of ridiculous against decks that aren't packing a critical mass of counters and/or cheap spot removal. Even against my old GAA list, if I didn't keep a hand with at least 2 cheap answers, I was in trouble.
And let us not that this deck has the capability to instantly bounce back into a game winning position with a single card after Hermit Druid has been dealt with the first time.
It is not like Rofellos where the pilot is left either casting a 4 mana elf or a mono green deck after Rofellos is killed the first time. After Hermit Druid is killed the first time, there is roughly 21 cards in the deck that can win by themselves with a typical total mana investment of 1-5. In addition, while slow, the general also "wins the game" with one activation. This gives the Hermit deck a very high threat density post Druid #1 which should not be overlooked.
And let us not that this deck has the capability to instantly bounce back into a game winning position with a single card after Hermit Druid has been dealt with the first time.
It is not like Rofellos where the pilot is left either casting a 4 mana elf or a mono green deck after Rofellos is killed the first time. After Hermit Druid is killed the first time, there is roughly 21 cards in the deck that can win by themselves with a typical total mana investment of 1-5. In addition, while slow, the general also "wins the game" with one activation. This gives the Hermit deck a very high threat density post Druid #1 which should not be overlooked.
Agreed.
Beyond the fact that this deck has an insanely good plan A, there are so many alternate paths to victory, including bringing hermit back from the dead.
I have been trying to refine this concept and I think I am on to something. I have trimmed the deck and removed some of the dredge package, the stuff that returns the druid from exile, and plan B and replaced it with a package that is a guarantee. Discard protects the combo more than anything else as very few permanents disrupt this combo. Being able to see their hand and know the coast is clear or prevent them from playing spells is very important. I would rather slow down the combo and wait for that 100% guarantee that I win the game.
Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Inquisition of Kozilek,
I strongly believe in not passing the turn so Concordant Crossroads, Mass Hysteria are key!
this is the optimal game plan but if it takes you and extra few turns don't worry, odds are most other decks especially the control ones we are worried about take many more turns to go off.
T1 mana excel or tutor
T2 man excel, tutor, and haste creator
T3 discard or silence guarantee, druid activate FTW
have been trying to refine this concept and I think I am on to something. I have trimmed the deck and removed some of the dredge package, the stuff that returns the druid from exile, and plan B and replaced it with a package that is a guarantee. Discard protects the combo more than anything else as very few permanents disrupt this combo. Being able to see their hand and know the coast is clear or prevent them from playing spells is very important. I would rather slow down the combo and wait for that 100% guarantee that I win the game.
Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Inquisition of Kozilek,
I strongly believe in not passing the turn so Concordant Crossroads, Mass Hysteria are key!
this is the optimal game plan but if it takes you and extra few turns don't worry, odds are most other decks especially the control ones we are worried about take many more turns to go off.
T1 mana excel or tutor
T2 man excel, tutor, and haste creator
T3 discard or silence guarantee, druid activate FTW
How consistently have you been able to do this?
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Stop wasting your time here and come to a forum that actually fosters intelligent discussion: Fires Rf Salvation
You need to mulligan aggressively for tutors and pieces but that is the majority of the deck. actually something like 90% of it fits into one of those categories
"How consistently have you been able to do this? "
I cant really answer your question accurately
I feel it is more consistent than trying to re combo or win through a plan B
also waiting for an opponent with a non blue general to tap out is as good as a silence.
Not sure if anyone else caught this, but on the other Commander forum, Sheldon says
Don't know how he came to the conclusion of "nowhere near bannable", but I expect he'll change his mine once "the format is warped," heh.
If they banned Staff of Domination, they'll ban Hermit Druid. Does anyone visit Armada Games? Have I got a deck for you! I mean, this deck is ridiculous in multiplayer as well you know. Especially because a multiplayer table generally has less spot removal among all opponents combined than a 1v1 opponent has.
The problem with defining [EDH] by what is "fun" is that everyone seems to define fun as what they don't lose to. If you keep losing to easily answered cards, that means you should improve your deck. If you don't want to improve your deck, then you should come to peace with the idea that you are going to lose because you chose to not interact with better strategies.
If they banned Staff of Domination, they'll ban Hermit Druid. Does anyone visit Armada Games? Have I got a deck for you! I mean, this deck is ridiculous in multiplayer as well you know. Especially because a multiplayer table generally has less spot removal among all opponents combined than a 1v1 opponent has.
Yeah, I thought that was kind of a jump-the-gun response from Sheldon. I can't imagine he hasn't seen this deck, but then again maybe he hasn't…
If they banned Staff of Domination, they'll ban Hermit Druid. Does anyone visit Armada Games? Have I got a deck for you! I mean, this deck is ridiculous in multiplayer as well you know. Especially because a multiplayer table generally has less spot removal among all opponents combined than a 1v1 opponent has.
On the other hand, Hermit Druid on its own is not really broken per se. It is the entire deck configuration which makes it broken. The deck is not exactly cheap to begin with and players who would actually invest that sum for real life paper EDH would be far and few to begin with. As such, I won't say that it is going to dominate multiplayer games all too often.
Staff of Domination wasn't broken on its own either. It required other cards to make it truly tick.
While Hermit combo is hugely expensive (mostly due to the mana base) not banning it because the rest of the deck is costly doesnt make much sense if the card itself feuls a degenerate IWIN! combo.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
People who want to make broken decks will make broken decks no matter if you ban Hermit Druid or not. They will either build a different broken deck, or they and their friends will simply ignore the banlist. It does't really matter if Druid happens to be the most broken. In either case, banning Hermit Druid has had very little effect while at the same time constricting everyone who wanted to use Hermit Druid in a fun way.
The banlist should be reserved for cards that can't help but ruin games, cards that some innocent blindly adds to their new deck with all the best intentions and ruins the play experience for them and his/her friends.
Annnnyways, this is way OT and should be reserved for a different thread.
You need to mulligan aggressively for tutors and pieces but that is the majority of the deck. actually something like 90% of it fits into one of those categories
"How consistently have you been able to do this? "
I cant really answer your question accurately
I feel it is more consistent than trying to re combo or win through a plan B
also waiting for an opponent with a non blue general to tap out is as good as a silence.
There's no real reason to cut Plan B from the equation. When you can have a backup plan that comprises of only two cards, you're doing it *right*. Look at any combo deck from well...any format, ever.
There is almost always at least one backup plan, even if that backup plan involves using the same means (such as Storm).
Tournament Report for the Salvation MWS tournament concluded in April 2011, excuse my note taking skills.
Round 1 vs Asimov’s Jhoira:
Game 1:
Mull to 4, but manage to Green Sun Zenith turn 3 into druid after Jhoira taps out for a mana rock
It dies to a mystical tutor > magma jet, but get reanimated by Reanimate afterwards.
Druid activates, and I go off through one counterspell.
Game 2:
Mull to 5. Turn 2 demonic tutor resolves. I put him on a counterspell so I go t3 birds of paradise.
T4 I go vindicate an island, he mana drains it, I cast druid. He EOT mystical tutors for Fire and Ice and kills birds and druid.
Next turn I cast Scion which is met with force of will. We are both now in top deck mode.
He begins to beat with Jhoira, and eventually casts an Oblivion stone, I Regrowth > cast druid forcing him to blow the stone and kill Jhoira.
I draw but hold Phyrexian Revoker, He casts Fact of Fiction mainphase, reveals 4 lands (tectonic edge + wasteland) + ponder, as a bit of a gamble I give him a 4-1 pile (Top vs 4 lands)
He takes ponder, looks at top 3, shuffles and draws, then casts Sensei's Divining Top.
I cast Revoker, when I ask if it resolves I name Top.
I eventually draw into some red lands, cast Scion and win.
Round 2 vs Evergreen’s Iname
Game 1:
Opening hand is Survival, Birds, Ray of Revelation, Morselhoarder and lands.
Go survival route, pitch hoarder for genesis in resp to distress.
I pass turn with survival mana open, Evergreen casts needle which I foolishly let resolve, it names Survival (I had had a bunch of mana open)
I cast Scion, Evergreen casts Plunge through darkness for 17 and apparently wiffs, casts recurring nightmare.
I swing with Dragon Tryrant for lethal.
Game 2:
GSZ, Hermit Druid, Dark Confidant, Regrowth, lands
Iname is cast turn 2 off of mana vault ancient tomb
My t2 I cast Tidehollow Sculler (top deck!) and take Krov Horr, he top decks Sadistic and casts it Sacrament (exiling Necrotic Ooze, Survival and something else)
I cast Druid and pass
He casts grim monollith and oblivion stone
I untap and pass the turn with an active druid
He untaps mana vault, passes with Oblivion Stone mana up, end of turn I activate druid.
On upkeep I can Krosan Reclation on Pull thru eternity and Reanimate. I draw Pull thru eternity which I cast. In response he O stones
I pass the turn
He draws, and concedes.
Round 3 vs LennonMarx’s Horde of Notions:
Game 1:
I make a critical misplay that opens me up unnecessarily to graveyard hate. I use my Mystical Tutor to go for Buried Alive (Life//Death in hand) and he vamp tutors for Nihil Spellbomb the turn after Buried Alive to wipe out my combo. Oops. I should have Mystical tutored for Green Sun Zenith in hindsight. I draw no action and die to a Yawg’s Will fueled tendrils.
Game 2:
Is a classic turn 2 Hermit Druid hand. In response to Hermit Druid he cast Orim’s Chant and then Balances on his turn. I Krosan Reclamation > Reanmite for lethal.
Game 3:
Starts as a slow hand (Intuition, Cabal Therapy, brainstorm, 4 lands incl 2 fetches). I draw mystical tutor which speeds it up. At this point I Therapy to see (Island, Dark Rital and Tol Academy) and I get optimistic.
He top decks Demonic Tutor and gets Oath.
I answer turn 3 Oath of druids with Quiet speculation for a Ray of Revelation and kill it. I also mystical for GSZ. GSZ for druid. I Therapy him before druids ability (sacrificing a spirit token donated by Lennon’s Forbidden Orchard) and see abeyance. He casts abeyance in resp to druid’s ability.
I pass the turn. On his turn he HARD CASTS IONA. I try to recover with Krosan Reclamation > Pull from eternity looping, planning on ramping into Dragon Tyrant. Yes my deck has a weakness to Iona. But his second top deck is a Memory Jar which kills me.
Round 4 vs Mutedequillibrium's Akroma, Angel of Fury
Lost my notes.
Quaterfinals vs Killkeny’s Sharuum:
Game 1:
mulled everything to 6 (only thing resembling action was entomb) into a sick hand
Phyrexian Revoker, S library, GSZ, Cabal Therapy, Land, Chrome Mox
t1 I go Mox (therapy), land Sylvan Library, I get my GSZ discarded by a duress.
T2 I draw Imperial seal, thoughtsieze and Pact of Negation
Thoughtsieze hits Shred Memory, I combo out with Pact Backup
Game 2:
I mull keeping Dark Confidant, Demonic Tutor and 2 lands, and draw into entomb and a land
I t2 demonic tutor
t3 strip mine and druid
t4 combo out without protection, Killkeny tries to Trickbind Necrotic Ooze which does not work.
Semifinals vs MCR’s Grand Arbiter Augustine:
Game 1:
Opening 7 is a slow hand 2 lands, Buried alive, intuition shred memory, phyrexian revoker. I keep
Top deck mystical tutor on turn 1 (on the draw), I EOT mystical which resolves tutor demonic tutor, t2 demonic tutor meets white force spike.
t3 I mesmeric fiend which meets mana drain into arbiter on his turn.
In the top 18 cards of my deck I see 3 lands (he draws a strip mine at one point). So i never see over 2 lands with an arbiter in play
On my last turn I had drawn brainstorm, I checked and the top 3 next cards were lands, go figure
I die to arbiter beats.
Game 2:
Opening 7 is 4 lands, Worldy Tutor, Orim Chant and Thoughtsieze, I play
t1 thought seize which sees Force Spike Repeal and a mana rock, I take repeal
t2 I main phase wordly tutor for druid, he casts rock
t3 I cast druid, he casts arbiter
t4 I actually made a mistake here, I thought Dread return would cost 2 to play and not 1, so I could have gone off with orim chant protection for force of will, but I don’t, he doesn’t have force of will anyways.
G3
i mull a decent hand, heavy on land, worldy tutor, dread return, phyrexian revoker into a BROKEN one (partial paris is busted) of wordly tutor, vampiric tutor, inquisition of koziliek, chrome mox, 2 lands.
t1 chrome mox imprinting a black dregescape zombie cast inquisition of kozilek, see wasteland, mana rock, condemn, propaganda, tolarion academy, Ii take mana rock
t2 he wastelands and I worldly tutor for druid casting it on my turn.
t3 he draws and says gg
Finals vs LennonMarx’s Horde of Notions
Game 1:
I keep a killer hand which had Ponder, Dark Confidant, Wordly Tutor and lands
My first druid is met with a tutored for Swords to plowshares. I follow up with a Dark Confidant and Ponder.
Two turns later I cast Scion. He High Tides into Time Spiral, into Wheel of Fortune passing the turn with a little mana open.
On my Lennon attempts to cast Snap on Scion in response to my Mystical Tutor in my upkeep, but it is met with a Muddle the Mixture. Scion swings in as Nicol Bolas, and then Dragon Tyrant the next turn for lethal.
Game 2:
I mulligan down to 4 cards keeping 1 land each time. I keep a hand with Sylvan tutor.
T1 Horde: land, Fastbond, land | Druid: land, Sylvan tutor fetching Hermit Druid
T2 Horde: land, demonic tutor | Druid: land, Hermit Druid.
T3 Horde: High Tide, Frantic Search, Wheel of Fortune, land, land, land etc etc gg
G3
I keep my opening 7 with Demonic Tutor, Green Sun Zenith, Sylvan Library, 4 lands
On the Play
T1 Druid: land | Horde: land
T2 Druid: land, Sylvan Library | Horde: land, Nature's Claim
T3 Druid: land, Mesmeric Fiend finding Silence, Lotus Petal, Helm of Awakening (take silence) | Horde: land, Ponder
T4 Druid: land, Green Sun Zenith for Hermit Druid | Horde: land: Recoup targeting Poner, Ponder, Nihil Spellbomb
T5 Druid: land, Demonic Tutor fetching Ancient Grudge, Ancient Grudge targeting Spellbomb leave 1 mana open to combo out with. gg
I appreciate the report, but I'd love to hear more about your choices in deckbuilding (like cutting Cephalid Illusionist) and your thoughts on which cards over or underperformed. Also, your thoughts on just how overpowered Hermit Druid is, and whether it deserves a ban.
I'd like to note that the deck isn't actually dead if Hermit Druid is banned. Cephalid Illusionist and a number of other cards can produce the same effect, just obviously with a bit less speed and consistency. The overall concept should still work without Hermit Druid though.
I think he's laughing at the "deck isn't dead without hermit druid" because from where i am sitting, the deck loses alot of its "iwin" with the druid gone.... and therefore it's competitive-ness.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
I appreciate the report, but I'd love to hear more about your choices in deckbuilding (like cutting Cephalid Illusionist) and your thoughts on which cards over or underperformed. Also, your thoughts on just how overpowered Hermit Druid is, and whether it deserves a ban.
Overall I feel there is alot of room to improve on my list. For one I am completely cold to a resolved Iona naming Black which cost me a game in the preliminary rounds and makes me fear Oath of Druids when playing this deck. Luckily it appears this list can get Hermit Druid into play faster and more consistently than LennonMarx's D3 list can get Oath of Druids into play.
While testing initial drafts of the deck I never liked Cephalid Illusionist. If I had tutors available and had not drawn either Lightning Greaves nor Illusionist then other alternate paths to victory were always superior. If I had drawn either Greaves or Illusionist, then the option for tutoring for the missing piece was never that much more attractive than either tutoring Shallow Grave or Survival of the Fittest.
Some cards that underperformed:
Genesis - Never used it once in the tournament, better suited for a different metagame.
Tidehollow Sculler - Nice effect / cost, but the colours are a bit to difficult I think.
Pull from Eternity - It's a scary cut because you can feel vulnerable with no cards in your library, but in the end I do not think it is necessary.
Does Druid need to be banned?
Absolutely yes. (Sorry Moondust) It is simply to fast and consistent and would require the entire format to warp in order to defeat it consistently and in the process drive out a number of otherwise viable strategies / decks which in turn narrows the format, drives players away and overall makes the format less interesting.
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Also how does this deck do against those kinda hardcore control decks?
It loses pretty hard. Luckily not everything in the meta is Azami or Clique.
^ Ninja Edit: I don't mean that it can't beat those decks (obviously), but it's a pretty uphill battle.
I don't think color pie balancing is an appropriate way to balance a format. Saying that Hermit Druid is fine because it isn't a blue deck is meaningless. Especially because you do need to be playing blue to abuse it. I know you've included a Hermit Druid combo into Adun, Moondust, but it's only fair in that deck. Without Narcomoba and to some extent Fatestitcher, your list is much slower and fairer. You're even playing basics. In your deck, Hermit Druid is reasonable. In a deck like this one though, which goes all out to abuse it, it's much more degenerate.
That said, I still think hermit is kind of ridiculous against decks that aren't packing a critical mass of counters and/or cheap spot removal. Even against my old GAA list, if I didn't keep a hand with at least 2 cheap answers, I was in trouble.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
It is not like Rofellos where the pilot is left either casting a 4 mana elf or a mono green deck after Rofellos is killed the first time. After Hermit Druid is killed the first time, there is roughly 21 cards in the deck that can win by themselves with a typical total mana investment of 1-5. In addition, while slow, the general also "wins the game" with one activation. This gives the Hermit deck a very high threat density post Druid #1 which should not be overlooked.
Agreed.
Beyond the fact that this deck has an insanely good plan A, there are so many alternate paths to victory, including bringing hermit back from the dead.
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Inquisition of Kozilek,
I strongly believe in not passing the turn so Concordant Crossroads, Mass Hysteria are key!
this is the optimal game plan but if it takes you and extra few turns don't worry, odds are most other decks especially the control ones we are worried about take many more turns to go off.
T1 mana excel or tutor
T2 man excel, tutor, and haste creator
T3 discard or silence guarantee, druid activate FTW
How consistently have you been able to do this?
"How consistently have you been able to do this? "
I cant really answer your question accurately
I feel it is more consistent than trying to re combo or win through a plan B
also waiting for an opponent with a non blue general to tap out is as good as a silence.
If they banned Staff of Domination, they'll ban Hermit Druid. Does anyone visit Armada Games? Have I got a deck for you! I mean, this deck is ridiculous in multiplayer as well you know. Especially because a multiplayer table generally has less spot removal among all opponents combined than a 1v1 opponent has.
Yeah, I thought that was kind of a jump-the-gun response from Sheldon. I can't imagine he hasn't seen this deck, but then again maybe he hasn't…
twitter.com/bccarlso
On the other hand, Hermit Druid on its own is not really broken per se. It is the entire deck configuration which makes it broken. The deck is not exactly cheap to begin with and players who would actually invest that sum for real life paper EDH would be far and few to begin with. As such, I won't say that it is going to dominate multiplayer games all too often.
While Hermit combo is hugely expensive (mostly due to the mana base) not banning it because the rest of the deck is costly doesnt make much sense if the card itself feuls a degenerate IWIN! combo.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Assuming multiplayer:
People who want to make broken decks will make broken decks no matter if you ban Hermit Druid or not. They will either build a different broken deck, or they and their friends will simply ignore the banlist. It does't really matter if Druid happens to be the most broken. In either case, banning Hermit Druid has had very little effect while at the same time constricting everyone who wanted to use Hermit Druid in a fun way.
The banlist should be reserved for cards that can't help but ruin games, cards that some innocent blindly adds to their new deck with all the best intentions and ruins the play experience for them and his/her friends.
Annnnyways, this is way OT and should be reserved for a different thread.
There's no real reason to cut Plan B from the equation. When you can have a backup plan that comprises of only two cards, you're doing it *right*. Look at any combo deck from well...any format, ever.
There is almost always at least one backup plan, even if that backup plan involves using the same means (such as Storm).
No problem, I'd really like to see the list if you can get it as consistent as your touting says you can.
Round 1 vs Asimov’s Jhoira:
Game 1:
Mull to 4, but manage to Green Sun Zenith turn 3 into druid after Jhoira taps out for a mana rock
It dies to a mystical tutor > magma jet, but get reanimated by Reanimate afterwards.
Druid activates, and I go off through one counterspell.
Game 2:
Mull to 5. Turn 2 demonic tutor resolves. I put him on a counterspell so I go t3 birds of paradise.
T4 I go vindicate an island, he mana drains it, I cast druid. He EOT mystical tutors for Fire and Ice and kills birds and druid.
Next turn I cast Scion which is met with force of will. We are both now in top deck mode.
He begins to beat with Jhoira, and eventually casts an Oblivion stone, I Regrowth > cast druid forcing him to blow the stone and kill Jhoira.
I draw but hold Phyrexian Revoker, He casts Fact of Fiction mainphase, reveals 4 lands (tectonic edge + wasteland) + ponder, as a bit of a gamble I give him a 4-1 pile (Top vs 4 lands)
He takes ponder, looks at top 3, shuffles and draws, then casts Sensei's Divining Top.
I cast Revoker, when I ask if it resolves I name Top.
I eventually draw into some red lands, cast Scion and win.
Round 2 vs Evergreen’s Iname
Game 1:
Opening hand is Survival, Birds, Ray of Revelation, Morselhoarder and lands.
Go survival route, pitch hoarder for genesis in resp to distress.
I pass turn with survival mana open, Evergreen casts needle which I foolishly let resolve, it names Survival (I had had a bunch of mana open)
I cast Scion, Evergreen casts Plunge through darkness for 17 and apparently wiffs, casts recurring nightmare.
I swing with Dragon Tryrant for lethal.
Game 2:
GSZ, Hermit Druid, Dark Confidant, Regrowth, lands
Iname is cast turn 2 off of mana vault ancient tomb
My t2 I cast Tidehollow Sculler (top deck!) and take Krov Horr, he top decks Sadistic and casts it Sacrament (exiling Necrotic Ooze, Survival and something else)
I cast Druid and pass
He casts grim monollith and oblivion stone
I untap and pass the turn with an active druid
He untaps mana vault, passes with Oblivion Stone mana up, end of turn I activate druid.
On upkeep I can Krosan Reclation on Pull thru eternity and Reanimate. I draw Pull thru eternity which I cast. In response he O stones
I pass the turn
He draws, and concedes.
Round 3 vs LennonMarx’s Horde of Notions:
Game 1:
I make a critical misplay that opens me up unnecessarily to graveyard hate. I use my Mystical Tutor to go for Buried Alive (Life//Death in hand) and he vamp tutors for Nihil Spellbomb the turn after Buried Alive to wipe out my combo. Oops. I should have Mystical tutored for Green Sun Zenith in hindsight. I draw no action and die to a Yawg’s Will fueled tendrils.
Game 2:
Is a classic turn 2 Hermit Druid hand. In response to Hermit Druid he cast Orim’s Chant and then Balances on his turn. I Krosan Reclamation > Reanmite for lethal.
Game 3:
Starts as a slow hand (Intuition, Cabal Therapy, brainstorm, 4 lands incl 2 fetches). I draw mystical tutor which speeds it up. At this point I Therapy to see (Island, Dark Rital and Tol Academy) and I get optimistic.
He top decks Demonic Tutor and gets Oath.
I answer turn 3 Oath of druids with Quiet speculation for a Ray of Revelation and kill it. I also mystical for GSZ. GSZ for druid. I Therapy him before druids ability (sacrificing a spirit token donated by Lennon’s Forbidden Orchard) and see abeyance. He casts abeyance in resp to druid’s ability.
I pass the turn. On his turn he HARD CASTS IONA. I try to recover with Krosan Reclamation > Pull from eternity looping, planning on ramping into Dragon Tyrant. Yes my deck has a weakness to Iona. But his second top deck is a Memory Jar which kills me.
Round 4 vs Mutedequillibrium's Akroma, Angel of Fury
Lost my notes.
Quaterfinals vs Killkeny’s Sharuum:
Game 1:
mulled everything to 6 (only thing resembling action was entomb) into a sick hand
Phyrexian Revoker, S library, GSZ, Cabal Therapy, Land, Chrome Mox
t1 I go Mox (therapy), land Sylvan Library, I get my GSZ discarded by a duress.
T2 I draw Imperial seal, thoughtsieze and Pact of Negation
Thoughtsieze hits Shred Memory, I combo out with Pact Backup
Game 2:
I mull keeping Dark Confidant, Demonic Tutor and 2 lands, and draw into entomb and a land
I t2 demonic tutor
t3 strip mine and druid
t4 combo out without protection, Killkeny tries to Trickbind Necrotic Ooze which does not work.
Semifinals vs MCR’s Grand Arbiter Augustine:
Game 1:
Opening 7 is a slow hand 2 lands, Buried alive, intuition shred memory, phyrexian revoker. I keep
Top deck mystical tutor on turn 1 (on the draw), I EOT mystical which resolves tutor demonic tutor, t2 demonic tutor meets white force spike.
t3 I mesmeric fiend which meets mana drain into arbiter on his turn.
In the top 18 cards of my deck I see 3 lands (he draws a strip mine at one point). So i never see over 2 lands with an arbiter in play
On my last turn I had drawn brainstorm, I checked and the top 3 next cards were lands, go figure
I die to arbiter beats.
Game 2:
Opening 7 is 4 lands, Worldy Tutor, Orim Chant and Thoughtsieze, I play
t1 thought seize which sees Force Spike Repeal and a mana rock, I take repeal
t2 I main phase wordly tutor for druid, he casts rock
t3 I cast druid, he casts arbiter
t4 I actually made a mistake here, I thought Dread return would cost 2 to play and not 1, so I could have gone off with orim chant protection for force of will, but I don’t, he doesn’t have force of will anyways.
G3
i mull a decent hand, heavy on land, worldy tutor, dread return, phyrexian revoker into a BROKEN one (partial paris is busted) of wordly tutor, vampiric tutor, inquisition of koziliek, chrome mox, 2 lands.
t1 chrome mox imprinting a black dregescape zombie cast inquisition of kozilek, see wasteland, mana rock, condemn, propaganda, tolarion academy, Ii take mana rock
t2 he wastelands and I worldly tutor for druid casting it on my turn.
t3 he draws and says gg
Finals vs LennonMarx’s Horde of Notions
Game 1:
I keep a killer hand which had Ponder, Dark Confidant, Wordly Tutor and lands
My first druid is met with a tutored for Swords to plowshares. I follow up with a Dark Confidant and Ponder.
Two turns later I cast Scion. He High Tides into Time Spiral, into Wheel of Fortune passing the turn with a little mana open.
On my Lennon attempts to cast Snap on Scion in response to my Mystical Tutor in my upkeep, but it is met with a Muddle the Mixture. Scion swings in as Nicol Bolas, and then Dragon Tyrant the next turn for lethal.
Game 2:
I mulligan down to 4 cards keeping 1 land each time. I keep a hand with Sylvan tutor.
T1 Horde: land, Fastbond, land | Druid: land, Sylvan tutor fetching Hermit Druid
T2 Horde: land, demonic tutor | Druid: land, Hermit Druid.
T3 Horde: High Tide, Frantic Search, Wheel of Fortune, land, land, land etc etc gg
G3
I keep my opening 7 with Demonic Tutor, Green Sun Zenith, Sylvan Library, 4 lands
On the Play
T1 Druid: land | Horde: land
T2 Druid: land, Sylvan Library | Horde: land, Nature's Claim
T3 Druid: land, Mesmeric Fiend finding Silence, Lotus Petal, Helm of Awakening (take silence) | Horde: land, Ponder
T4 Druid: land, Green Sun Zenith for Hermit Druid | Horde: land: Recoup targeting Poner, Ponder, Nihil Spellbomb
T5 Druid: land, Demonic Tutor fetching Ancient Grudge, Ancient Grudge targeting Spellbomb leave 1 mana open to combo out with. gg
twitter.com/bccarlso
One-Eyed Black | Orzhov Combo | Ooze Reanimator | Mindwheeling Pain
I appreciate the report, but I'd love to hear more about your choices in deckbuilding (like cutting Cephalid Illusionist) and your thoughts on which cards over or underperformed. Also, your thoughts on just how overpowered Hermit Druid is, and whether it deserves a ban.
I'd like to note that the deck isn't actually dead if Hermit Druid is banned. Cephalid Illusionist and a number of other cards can produce the same effect, just obviously with a bit less speed and consistency. The overall concept should still work without Hermit Druid though.
I second that.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
Overall I feel there is alot of room to improve on my list. For one I am completely cold to a resolved Iona naming Black which cost me a game in the preliminary rounds and makes me fear Oath of Druids when playing this deck. Luckily it appears this list can get Hermit Druid into play faster and more consistently than LennonMarx's D3 list can get Oath of Druids into play.
While testing initial drafts of the deck I never liked Cephalid Illusionist. If I had tutors available and had not drawn either Lightning Greaves nor Illusionist then other alternate paths to victory were always superior. If I had drawn either Greaves or Illusionist, then the option for tutoring for the missing piece was never that much more attractive than either tutoring Shallow Grave or Survival of the Fittest.
Some cards that underperformed:
Genesis - Never used it once in the tournament, better suited for a different metagame.
Tidehollow Sculler - Nice effect / cost, but the colours are a bit to difficult I think.
Crippling Fatigue - There is nothing relevant to kill with this atm. (Note we are not blocked by an opposing Gaddok Teeg if we Krosan Reclamation > Reanimate)
Pull from Eternity - It's a scary cut because you can feel vulnerable with no cards in your library, but in the end I do not think it is necessary.
Does Druid need to be banned?
Absolutely yes. (Sorry Moondust) It is simply to fast and consistent and would require the entire format to warp in order to defeat it consistently and in the process drive out a number of otherwise viable strategies / decks which in turn narrows the format, drives players away and overall makes the format less interesting.