it bugs me that bad moon does nothing to falkenrath gorger and stromkirk noble (and maybe insolent neonate if he makes the cut). it will also get marginally worse once ixalan comes up with monoW vamps. strictly better than crusade for sure not sure if it's better than intangible virtue.. but then again i'd rather the pump hit nontokens than give tokens vigilance.
Virtue ended up sucking. We wouldn't use Always Watching b/c it only pumps half of our team. Bad Moon is ok but for one more mana you get Shared Animosity.
Will there be any good Mono W Vampires that we know of?
it bugs me that bad moon does nothing to falkenrath gorger and stromkirk noble (and maybe insolent neonate if he makes the cut). it will also get marginally worse once ixalan comes up with monoW vamps. strictly better than crusade for sure not sure if it's better than intangible virtue.. but then again i'd rather the pump hit nontokens than give tokens vigilance.
Virtue ended up sucking. We wouldn't use Always Watching b/c it only pumps half of our team. Bad Moon is ok but for one more mana you get Shared Animosity.
Will there be any good Mono W Vampires that we know of?
ixalan leak. 3 to cast 2/2, whenever one or more nontoken vamps attack, create a white 1/1 vamp with lifelink. he himself has no lifelink but at least he creates a token as soon as he's cast, then another when a vamp swings. even then though, my mention of crusade was a joke hehe
Personally my testing records, are meaningless since I just played 5 games against all my playgroup's decks but I kinda agree with you
Vs Zurgo 4-1
Vs Baral 4-1
Vs Karlov 3-2
Vs Kytheon 5-0
Vs Thalia 4-1
Vs Selvala 5-0
Vs Titania 2-3
Vs Tymna-Thrasios 5-0
Vs Tymna-Sidar Kondo 3-2
Vs Tymna-Kraum 5-0
Vs Ezuri 5-0
Vs Doran 2-3
Vs Alesha 4-1
Vs Hapatra 5-0
Vs Teferi 5-0
Vs Queen Marchesa 1-4
Vs Animar 1-4
Vs Ruhan 3-2
Only decks with much better creature quality or full of wraths can stand up to Edgar before possible meta adaptations.
For MTGO I only goldfished a 3-2 vs Breya and a 2-3 vs Baral before giving up because C17 doesn't come out online until november and a lot may have changed by then.[/[quote from="Cainsson »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-duel-commander/781212-is-edgar-markov-bannable-in-french?comment=64"]Personally my testing records, are meaningless since I just played 5 games against all my playgroup's decks but I kinda agree with you
Vs Zurgo 4-1
Vs Baral 4-1
Vs Karlov 3-2
Vs Kytheon 5-0
Vs Thalia 4-1
Vs Selvala 5-0
Vs Titania 2-3
Vs Tymna-Thrasios 5-0
Vs Tymna-Sidar Kondo 3-2
Vs Tymna-Kraum 5-0
Vs Ezuri 5-0
Vs Doran 2-3
Vs Alesha 4-1
Vs Hapatra 5-0
Vs Teferi 5-0
Vs Queen Marchesa 1-4
Vs Animar 1-4
Vs Ruhan 3-2
Only decks with much better creature quality or full of wraths can stand up to Edgar before possible meta adaptations.
For MTGO I only goldfished a 3-2 vs Breya and a 2-3 vs Baral before giving up because C17 doesn't come out online until november and a lot may have changed by then.
animar is barely played nowadays, and queen marchesa is also low on the representation department. looks like the deck performs great. he really is gonna get banned i think, and this is coming from a guy who really wants to brew mardu vamps..
at least i now have a top pick in case i decide to go mtgo.
It's not really a broken combo, you still need a billion mana to cast it all. Even if you are playing with enough mana rocks to always have them turn 2, you don't have the critical mass of the other pieces to always close the game down t4. Zurgo does.
with so many outs in the deck to gain life, along with each vampire spell producing an extra chump blocker, zurgo's got his hands full. i was abt to say cainsson's 4-1 could easily have been 5-0, but i guess stuff like sulfuric vortexand price of progress do exist lol. but barring those outs, vamps win.
I did in fact only lose to a PoP for 8 after disrespecting Zurgo with a couple fetches for untapped shocks.
Maybe a very burn-heavy Zurgo would do better, but the 26+ creatures list was stonewalled by 1/1s while fliers got in and I do play Authority of the Consuls/Blind Obedience which ruin their chances further by a) gaining life, b) virtually removing blockers/ignoring haste and c) neutralizing ball lightning and it's clones.
Also Jitte, Blood Artist, Nighthawk, 12 spot removal spells, this deck plays dirty.
interesting! is this consistent enough to set up though?
I would think so, we have access to plenty of tutors and card draw to get the two pieces needed. Can even throw in Blood Artist for non-combat wincon. Not having to actually cast the commander makes it even easier.
It's pretty much the same, you need counter backup anyway and while the altars don't have flash they're harder to interact with than Mite/Exarch. Few people are running good instant speed artifact removal other than Abrupt Decay/Kolaghan's Command since Breya got banned.
It's pretty much the same, you need counter backup anyway and while the altars don't have flash they're harder to interact with than Mite/Exarch. Few people are running good instant speed artifact removal other than Abrupt Decay/Kolaghan's Command since Breya got banned.
Guess I'm not most people then because I've always got a Torch Fiend around somewhere in a 99...
I did in fact only lose to a PoP for 8 after disrespecting Zurgo with a couple fetches for untapped shocks.
Maybe a very burn-heavy Zurgo would do better, but the 26+ creatures list was stonewalled by 1/1s while fliers got in and I do play Authority of the Consuls/Blind Obedience which ruin their chances further by a) gaining life, b) virtually removing blockers/ignoring haste and c) neutralizing ball lightning and it's clones.
Also Jitte, Blood Artist, Nighthawk, 12 spot removal spells, this deck plays dirty.
yep, PoP just as i thought. i really don't see zurgo taking a set against edgar. even if they go burn heavy, if they point them all to the dome they'll be dead via combat. if they point them at the creatures, well they won't have enough reach to kill, esp with the incidental life gain.
i would definitely play wear/tear and hide/seek along with anguished unmaking to get rid of sulfuric vortex and ankh of mishra.. not to mention opposing equipment, hall of gemstone, blood moon and artifact-based combo pieces in other matchups..
interesting! is this consistent enough to set up though?
I would think so, we have access to plenty of tutors and card draw to get the two pieces needed. Can even throw in Blood Artist for non-combat wincon. Not having to actually cast the commander makes it even easier.
this will definitely punish aggro decks that run zero utility. my zurgo list has a torch fiend, fiery confluence and smash to smithereens so at least there are outs. i still think twin exarch is easier to set up.. or maybe there's a way to run both combos..?
I just don't see the bannable traits. Once the dust settles from the newness, once the meta adapts and learns to fight it (in Edgar's case, it takes a timely Pyroclasm or, more accurately, Volcanic Fallout because instant) the turn before the critical turn. Consume the Meek is great here, and maybe now more people revert to cycling Decree of Pain.....
Edgar isn't the threat because if you can't see a six drop haster coming down a mile away, well that's YOUR bad, not the card's. No, I'm not saying "dies to removal". I'm saying strategic use of removal. Know what you need to answer, and what can be caught in collateral damage from your own sweepers. This will be strong against decks that don't get sweeps (Baral/Jace, because spamming free bodies is pretty powerful vs counterspell decks. Which is fair because **** mono-U, it deserves to be held back and kept down). I digress. Point is, this will have it's own answers. Will it shape the meta? Sure. Good decks do that. But bannable? That'd make this format that much more laughable. I'm not afraid of the Edgar deck, I welcome the challenge with open arms.
I just don't see the bannable traits. Once the dust settles from the newness, once the meta adapts and learns to fight it (in Edgar's case, it takes a timely Pyroclasm or, more accurately, Volcanic Fallout because instant) the turn before the critical turn. Consume the Meek is great here, and maybe now more people revert to cycling Decree of Pain.....
Edgar isn't the threat because if you can't see a six drop haster coming down a mile away, well that's YOUR bad, not the card's. No, I'm not saying "dies to removal". I'm saying strategic use of removal. Know what you need to answer, and what can be caught in collateral damage from your own sweepers. This will be strong against decks that don't get sweeps (Baral/Jace, because spamming free bodies is pretty powerful vs counterspell decks. Which is fair because **** mono-U, it deserves to be held back and kept down). I digress. Point is, this will have it's own answers. Will it shape the meta? Sure. Good decks do that. But bannable? That'd make this format that much more laughable. I'm not afraid of the Edgar deck, I welcome the challenge with open arms.
Unbanning fastbond was a mistake. Everyone said that when the card was unbanned.
And sorry, but I GREATLY disagree with you. Of course, decks running red can play bunchs of pyroclasm effects, decks running black can play infect effects. However, when a deck warps the meta to the point you have to run cards in your main only to beat THAT particular deck, the deck is too strong (as someone who played pyroclam - the card is not good in our format, especially after Jace AND Geist got banned). Not to mention one of the most important aspects of all this story: emminence CAN'T be interacted with. You can take advantage from your commander without ever getting it out of the command zone, which puts other decks at a fundamental disadvantage. Even the 'bad' emminence commanders are not that far away from becoming broken - the Ur-Dragon needs more cheap dragons/changelings and Inalla needs better wizards.
The fact that you can meta for a deck does not mean the deck ISN'T broken. I don't see anything healthy coming from Edgar and Arahbo remaining in the format. I'm the first to complain about strong blue generals, but to not admit these emminence generals can't be allowed in the format because of an anti-blue bias is just bad.
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Eminence at least is fair-ish because it's tied to tribes that don't have the support other more established tribes do. if Arahbo was elves, Edgar was goblins, Inelia was Fish, and Ur-Dragon was...idk, like humans? Totally different scenario. I feel like you're complaining about the mechanic prematurely before waiting to see how the meta adapts. Metagames change, it's part of being an ever-evolving, vintage format. Calling for something's head before it even is released because it beats your decks is not constructive in the least, and if you make these kinds of snap judgments, then you're guilty of the same thing many accuse the DC committee of doing in knee-jerk announcements. It always takes about two months to determine if a metagame has successfully adapted or has become "X vs anti-X" (Edric). Are you saying Edgar is on Edric's level?
That's absurd. Almost as absurd as unbanning Fastbond. Almost. Nothing can be THAT bad.
Eminence at least is fair-ish because it's tied to tribes that don't have the support other more established tribes do. if Arahbo was elves, Edgar was goblins, Inelia was Fish, and Ur-Dragon was...idk, like humans? Totally different scenario. I feel like you're complaining about the mechanic prematurely before waiting to see how the meta adapts. Metagames change, it's part of being an ever-evolving, vintage format. Calling for something's head before it even is released because it beats your decks is not constructive in the least, and if you make these kinds of snap judgments, then you're guilty of the same thing many accuse the DC committee of doing in knee-jerk announcements. It always takes about two months to determine if a metagame has successfully adapted or has become "X vs anti-X" (Edric). Are you saying Edgar is on Edric's level?
That's absurd. Almost as absurd as unbanning Fastbond. Almost. Nothing can be THAT bad.
If edgar gets a knee-jerk ban based only on an assumption that it will warp the meta, yes i would agree it will be absurd.
but if we're going to talk about perceived power level (aka bannable traits), i think decent assessments can be made as early as now, particularly amongst players who have tested, whether as a pilot or opponent. i'm the latter. i playtested against a markov proxy a few hours ago that used a not-so-optimized list and manabase (no duals, no painlands even, even played fringe cards like blade of the bloodchief and 0 anthem effects) and i was piloting a deck that is almost designed to be able to not only keep up with markov's threat density, but also effectively shuts creatures in general out of the game (yes queen marchesa control lol).. so with that regard i believe my deck represents something that has already adjusted to markov.. and well, the matchup felt unnecessarily close simply because each topdecked vampire made 2 instead of 1. it's more than just getting scared of measly 1/1's.. one jitte or sword of x and y in play and each token becomes a must-remove threat. i went 1-1 (games took forever). i won by casting fiery confluence on a skullclamp, jitte and SOFAI combined with a sweep the turn before. lucky break if i ever saw one. i then lost next game by exhausting my resources keeping the vamps at bay (monarch driven resources mind you) only for marchesa to get bolted and markov himself to come out, steal the crown and finish me off.
my point is, i believe i play a deck that's a counterpick to that type of deck, and i still don't think i have more than a 50-60% chance of closing out a set with him (odds will also go down as the deck gets more optimized i'm sure). and i can only imagine what he does to other decks. another thing of note is that i felt like i was struggling against the mechanic itself instead of anything my opponent was doing. it felt oppressive despite having more outs than most decks in dealing with creatures.
btw i agree with the fastbond argument, and i'd take it a step further and say that even a titania with no fastbond could keep up with markov. 5/3's just beat 1/1's at the end of the day.
but for the rest of the meta, i don't see why non-green aggro should play anything other than edgar if he stays legal. i think his existence makes zurgo, karlov, kytheon and other aggressive strats kinda obsolete.
i'm torn though as to whether or not an obviously powerful mechanic should be allowed to be played around with before banning or should be just banned outright. i'm all for seeing firsthand what eminence does to the meta for a few months but that's only because i pilot a deck that happens to be able to counteract it to a certain extent. i'm not sure if other players, and more importantly the RC would think that such a thing can be afforded.
I think "Eminence" mechanic is still worse than "Partners".
I know that Eminence is like an emblem of a planeswalker and it's really strong but we're talking about a possible ban when Partners are still legal.
by worse do you mean less powerful or more degenerate?
I think "Eminence" mechanic is still worse than "Partners".
I know that Eminence is like an emblem of a planeswalker and it's really strong but we're talking about a possible ban when Partners are still legal.
by worse do you mean less powerful or more degenerate?
i think he means partner is posing a bigger problem than eminence could possibly cause on release.
i guess it depends on which eminence ability is being compared to which partner pairing. i really believe shared tax was more warranted than banning bruse. he was really more of a menace when paired with another aggressive color with ramp like green and a partner that curved perfectly into him like reyhan or a guaranteed early threat like akiri. overall partner tax rules should be given a second look. a compromise i can think of is paying extra 1 for each partner death instead of 2, but that feels like a nightmare to keep track of.
overall though, eminence to me is a bigger threat to the format because even though partner commanders are generally more resilient and difficult to lock out via tax than solo commanders, they are still creatures that can be interacted with in various ways. eminence is just there the whole game, start to finish. i mean short of playing engineered plague (offset by a single anthem btw), i dunno how else to adjust to vampballing.
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how's purphoros? not too slow?
I'd definitely add urge to feed. vamps aren't hasty anyway, so more often than not you'll often have untapped vamps to pump.
Virtue ended up sucking. We wouldn't use Always Watching b/c it only pumps half of our team. Bad Moon is ok but for one more mana you get Shared Animosity.
Will there be any good Mono W Vampires that we know of?
ixalan leak. 3 to cast 2/2, whenever one or more nontoken vamps attack, create a white 1/1 vamp with lifelink. he himself has no lifelink but at least he creates a token as soon as he's cast, then another when a vamp swings. even then though, my mention of crusade was a joke hehe
animar is barely played nowadays, and queen marchesa is also low on the representation department. looks like the deck performs great. he really is gonna get banned i think, and this is coming from a guy who really wants to brew mardu vamps..
at least i now have a top pick in case i decide to go mtgo.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Cainson reported 4-1.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist + Bloodline Necromancer + Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Altar
A couple of early rocks and there you go!
It's not really a broken combo, you still need a billion mana to cast it all. Even if you are playing with enough mana rocks to always have them turn 2, you don't have the critical mass of the other pieces to always close the game down t4. Zurgo does.
with so many outs in the deck to gain life, along with each vampire spell producing an extra chump blocker, zurgo's got his hands full. i was abt to say cainsson's 4-1 could easily have been 5-0, but i guess stuff like sulfuric vortexand price of progress do exist lol. but barring those outs, vamps win.
interesting! is this consistent enough to set up though?
Maybe a very burn-heavy Zurgo would do better, but the 26+ creatures list was stonewalled by 1/1s while fliers got in and I do play Authority of the Consuls/Blind Obedience which ruin their chances further by a) gaining life, b) virtually removing blockers/ignoring haste and c) neutralizing ball lightning and it's clones.
Also Jitte, Blood Artist, Nighthawk, 12 spot removal spells, this deck plays dirty.
I would think so, we have access to plenty of tutors and card draw to get the two pieces needed. Can even throw in Blood Artist for non-combat wincon. Not having to actually cast the commander makes it even easier.
Looks way worse than just running Twin combo, tbh. Yes, yes, I know combo with the commander. Don't care. Twin combo is just more efficient.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Guess I'm not most people then because I've always got a Torch Fiend around somewhere in a 99...
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
yep, PoP just as i thought. i really don't see zurgo taking a set against edgar. even if they go burn heavy, if they point them all to the dome they'll be dead via combat. if they point them at the creatures, well they won't have enough reach to kill, esp with the incidental life gain.
i would definitely play wear/tear and hide/seek along with anguished unmaking to get rid of sulfuric vortex and ankh of mishra.. not to mention opposing equipment, hall of gemstone, blood moon and artifact-based combo pieces in other matchups..
this will definitely punish aggro decks that run zero utility. my zurgo list has a torch fiend, fiery confluence and smash to smithereens so at least there are outs. i still think twin exarch is easier to set up.. or maybe there's a way to run both combos..?
Edgar isn't the threat because if you can't see a six drop haster coming down a mile away, well that's YOUR bad, not the card's. No, I'm not saying "dies to removal". I'm saying strategic use of removal. Know what you need to answer, and what can be caught in collateral damage from your own sweepers. This will be strong against decks that don't get sweeps (Baral/Jace, because spamming free bodies is pretty powerful vs counterspell decks. Which is fair because **** mono-U, it deserves to be held back and kept down). I digress. Point is, this will have it's own answers. Will it shape the meta? Sure. Good decks do that. But bannable? That'd make this format that much more laughable. I'm not afraid of the Edgar deck, I welcome the challenge with open arms.
You know what's faster than this, especially with Fastbond in 20 life? Titania, Protector of Argoth.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
And sorry, but I GREATLY disagree with you. Of course, decks running red can play bunchs of pyroclasm effects, decks running black can play infect effects. However, when a deck warps the meta to the point you have to run cards in your main only to beat THAT particular deck, the deck is too strong (as someone who played pyroclam - the card is not good in our format, especially after Jace AND Geist got banned). Not to mention one of the most important aspects of all this story: emminence CAN'T be interacted with. You can take advantage from your commander without ever getting it out of the command zone, which puts other decks at a fundamental disadvantage. Even the 'bad' emminence commanders are not that far away from becoming broken - the Ur-Dragon needs more cheap dragons/changelings and Inalla needs better wizards.
The fact that you can meta for a deck does not mean the deck ISN'T broken. I don't see anything healthy coming from Edgar and Arahbo remaining in the format. I'm the first to complain about strong blue generals, but to not admit these emminence generals can't be allowed in the format because of an anti-blue bias is just bad.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
That's absurd. Almost as absurd as unbanning Fastbond. Almost. Nothing can be THAT bad.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
If edgar gets a knee-jerk ban based only on an assumption that it will warp the meta, yes i would agree it will be absurd.
but if we're going to talk about perceived power level (aka bannable traits), i think decent assessments can be made as early as now, particularly amongst players who have tested, whether as a pilot or opponent. i'm the latter. i playtested against a markov proxy a few hours ago that used a not-so-optimized list and manabase (no duals, no painlands even, even played fringe cards like blade of the bloodchief and 0 anthem effects) and i was piloting a deck that is almost designed to be able to not only keep up with markov's threat density, but also effectively shuts creatures in general out of the game (yes queen marchesa control lol).. so with that regard i believe my deck represents something that has already adjusted to markov.. and well, the matchup felt unnecessarily close simply because each topdecked vampire made 2 instead of 1. it's more than just getting scared of measly 1/1's.. one jitte or sword of x and y in play and each token becomes a must-remove threat. i went 1-1 (games took forever). i won by casting fiery confluence on a skullclamp, jitte and SOFAI combined with a sweep the turn before. lucky break if i ever saw one. i then lost next game by exhausting my resources keeping the vamps at bay (monarch driven resources mind you) only for marchesa to get bolted and markov himself to come out, steal the crown and finish me off.
my point is, i believe i play a deck that's a counterpick to that type of deck, and i still don't think i have more than a 50-60% chance of closing out a set with him (odds will also go down as the deck gets more optimized i'm sure). and i can only imagine what he does to other decks. another thing of note is that i felt like i was struggling against the mechanic itself instead of anything my opponent was doing. it felt oppressive despite having more outs than most decks in dealing with creatures.
btw i agree with the fastbond argument, and i'd take it a step further and say that even a titania with no fastbond could keep up with markov. 5/3's just beat 1/1's at the end of the day.
but for the rest of the meta, i don't see why non-green aggro should play anything other than edgar if he stays legal. i think his existence makes zurgo, karlov, kytheon and other aggressive strats kinda obsolete.
i'm torn though as to whether or not an obviously powerful mechanic should be allowed to be played around with before banning or should be just banned outright. i'm all for seeing firsthand what eminence does to the meta for a few months but that's only because i pilot a deck that happens to be able to counteract it to a certain extent. i'm not sure if other players, and more importantly the RC would think that such a thing can be afforded.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
i think he means partner is posing a bigger problem than eminence could possibly cause on release.
i guess it depends on which eminence ability is being compared to which partner pairing. i really believe shared tax was more warranted than banning bruse. he was really more of a menace when paired with another aggressive color with ramp like green and a partner that curved perfectly into him like reyhan or a guaranteed early threat like akiri. overall partner tax rules should be given a second look. a compromise i can think of is paying extra 1 for each partner death instead of 2, but that feels like a nightmare to keep track of.
overall though, eminence to me is a bigger threat to the format because even though partner commanders are generally more resilient and difficult to lock out via tax than solo commanders, they are still creatures that can be interacted with in various ways. eminence is just there the whole game, start to finish. i mean short of playing engineered plague (offset by a single anthem btw), i dunno how else to adjust to vampballing.