This was originally a thread mainly about whether or not he should be banned, but decklists and some tourney results are being discussed so I edited the title accordingly (thanks ashiok lol) and has been edited a second time due to the ban.
Some people may think this is too soon to discuss, but i know the people here are pretty good at extrapolating and i really want some feedback before i choose to invest on vamps.
you get a 1/1 even if the vamp spell gets countered. you get a 1/1 even for a killspell like nameless inversion. it becomes so easy to recover from sweeps.. and no one can do anything abt it since eminence is eminence lol.. i mean if we follow the ban rationale for bruse tarl and geist (cards that i did not find broken btw), i don't see how this guy won't eventually get banned too based on power level alone.. that's my impression at least. I'd like to be wrong though, this guy looks like a blast to play with.
Like partner, I think that Eminence should be banned simply it warps the game so much in 1v1 where card advantage is one of the primary forces behind a win.
About this card specifically, I don't think the restriction to Vampire spells is severe enough not to just make this card busted. A starting hand with a 1 and 2-drop vampire leaves you with FOUR creatures on the board turn 2, and you're in the best removal colors to keep the board clear. That's such a huge tempo advantage and it's hard for me to imagine the current decks-to-beat being able to keep up.
These cards will be really fun in multiplayer though
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Playing with proxied cards at sanctioned events is good, actually.
I just finished building my first version of the list but since we'll have a GP here this weekend I won't be able to test it. He has enough of a punch to be bannable but he also demands so much space for his tribe that he begins to lack on flex spots. We'll see if this is enough to nerf him just enough so that other decks can beat him.
My first impression, though, is that he is a tad too strong for this watered-down format we have right now.
Wow, a bit early, no? So, run bad cards to make use of eminence, and that leaves you with... bad cards on the field? There are ~5 playable 1-drops in the tribe, and ~15 2 drops. None of those do anything to supplement such an early advantage. If anything, you'll overextend into a wrath and then be dead in the water, sounds like aggro to me.
Also, most of the powerhouse 2-drops are BB, that's a tough pill to swallow for a 3-color deck.
Sometimes commanders turn bad cards, like 1/1s for 1, into good ones. Remember Edric? His creatures were so bad they used to refer to the deck as 'piss Edric'. Zurgo was also a deck that used a lot of 'bad' cards, came out of nowhere and became a real, though not ban worthy, deck.
About sideboards, if you play with house rules then the normal does not apply to you.
Maybe if vampires were actually good.
You get Nighthawk, Aetherhawk, Bloodghast, Artist and Gatekeeper. Everything else is limited trash or 4cmc+.
It's actually disheartening, Vampires were meant to become the characteristic black tribe from Zendikar onwards and 8 years later 90% creatures in the best Modern Vampire tribal decks are still from ZEN Standard. They haven't even tried to push the envelope, meanwhile Zombies, Goblins, Elves and Merfolk have all gotten new Eternal-playable cards in the same time period.
Why would you overextend if by casting 3 1/1s for 1 you end up with 6 power on the table?
This. plus the fact that this effect that gives free 1/1's that can't be interacted with or prevented. i also think being limited to vampires is mitigated somehow by all the tribal synergy.
i honestly don't want him banned, but based on the loosely defined ban rationales as of late, this particular eminence effect seems OP for 20 life..
Maybe if vampires were actually good.
You get Nighthawk, Aetherhawk, Bloodghast, Artist and Gatekeeper. Everything else is limited trash or 4cmc+.
It's actually disheartening, Vampires were meant to become the characteristic black tribe from Zendikar onwards and 8 years later 90% creatures in the best Modern Vampire tribal decks are still from ZEN Standard. They haven't even tried to push the envelope, meanwhile Zombies, Goblins, Elves and Merfolk have all gotten new Eternal-playable cards in the same time period.
having 4-5 cmc cards is fine, markov as a commander helps the deck get away with a slower midrange theme because of the naturally strong early game thanks to the eminence effect.
and i'm not sure how many 1-2 drop vampires can still be referred to as bad, when thanks to eminence they all have the extra clause of "when you cast this spell, create a 1/1 token with tribal synergy with the card you just cast"... i think having 2-3 anthem effects like shared triumph, captivating vampire or even the vanilla glorious makes the deck nasty. even non-vamps like hero of bladehold/oxid ridge seems scary here..
The deck is probably pretty great. Boros is actually the best combination for anthem effects, which helps when you're playing lots of tokens. It remains to be seen which ones would be the best cards for the deck, but between shared animosity, zealous persecution, intangible virtue, sorin, lord of innistrad and glory of warfare you can be sure that the 1/1s won't stay 1/1s for too long.
I actually like the design space Edgar Markov is taking. He is a mardu swarm general, the first of its kind, and in one of the best combinations to do swarm (probably the only thing better would be naya). I think the deck is going to be insanely strong, and competitive even in mtgo at 30 life. The only downside, as many mentioned, is that you have to play some suboptimal vampires due to limited options, such as quag vampires and vampire cutthroat, but that isn't too bad. First, it means that the deck has a lot of room for improvement the more better vampires are printed. Second, you should see all of the chaff vampires as coming with an extra token, which makes basically even the worst of them an imitation of mogg war marshal, a staple of goblin decks in commander, and a decent card overall (and you get the token even if it is countered, which is insane). Finally, some crappy vampires become hidden gems in a deck like this, such as Indulgent Aristocrat.
As for the topic at hand: yes, he will be banned. Maybe not shortly, but it definitely will happen in 20 life. If you want to build him, do it for mtgo. I'm 100% sure that he and Arahbo are gonna bite it.
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arahbo too huh.. i would have thought constant spot removals from decks that can afford to do so would keep him off the radar. depending on composition i really think zurgo beats the kitties coz he can just burn a cat while the pump is on the stack to stay ahead..
but yeah bout markov i really feel the eminence ability makes him overpowered in 20 life.
since mtgo was mentioned, would he be able to keep up with the meta there?
More people should play more Stony Silence. Or at least some Torch Fiend, guy is crazy under-rated. Not like a bomb by any means, but a solid roleplayer.
More people should play more Stony Silence. Or at least some Torch Fiend, guy is crazy under-rated. Not like a bomb by any means, but a solid roleplayer.
not sure if decks outside of monowhite can afford the room.. but shutting down equipment, rocks and potential combo pieces does warrant consideration. but an enchantment at the 2cmc spot that would compete is RIP so..
also realized, a markov ban would be historical. there are no non-blue, non-green legendaries on the banlist yet i think lol
Bruse just got banned.
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Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist seems way more busted than Edgar Markov, because the quality of Vampire tribal is nowhere near the quality of random ETB or T Wizards in this game.
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist seems way more busted than Edgar Markov, because the quality of Vampire tribal is nowhere near the quality of random ETB or T Wizards in this game.
i wonder if it's explosive enough to impact 20 life that much.. you get the haste token, but it requires you to pay an extra 1, so it delays your wizards a turn for the perk.. unlike markov who literally just gives a free body without altering the cost of the vamp you cast. unless inalla has some kind of broken t4 combo, i think zurgo's gonna plow her all night.. unless i'm missing something again lol
Inalla, Archmage Ritualist seems way more busted than Edgar Markov, because the quality of Vampire tribal is nowhere near the quality of random ETB or T Wizards in this game.
Agreed. She is probably the most busted of all the Eminence cards.
I think Edgar will be very good but not bannable good. At first I thought he was but his power is suppressed by the limitations of his tribe. Part of me almost wants to never cast him and just play him as a mono B deck in order to use Vampire Nocturnus. But there are some really good red vamps. Then again most are BR and would still activate the Nocturnus.
The shapeshifter spells like Nameless Inversion and Mirror Entity are super busted with all the Eminence commanders. In particular the tribal shapeshifter spells like Nameless and Crib Swap get infinite value from Haakon, Stromgald Scourge in play. Haakon already goes great with the Vampire madness/discard synergies and now he gets to spawn free 1/1 bodies with recurring removal spells.
The shapeshifter spells like Nameless Inversion and Mirror Entity are super busted with all the Eminence commanders. In particular the tribal shapeshifter spells like Nameless and Crib Swap get infinite value from Haakon, Stromgald Scourge in play. Haakon already goes great with the Vampire madness/discard synergies and now he gets to spawn free 1/1 bodies with recurring removal spells.
woah never thought that far. i wonder how easy that'll be to set up..
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Some people may think this is too soon to discuss, but i know the people here are pretty good at extrapolating and i really want some feedback before i choose to invest on vamps.
you get a 1/1 even if the vamp spell gets countered. you get a 1/1 even for a killspell like nameless inversion. it becomes so easy to recover from sweeps.. and no one can do anything abt it since eminence is eminence lol.. i mean if we follow the ban rationale for bruse tarl and geist (cards that i did not find broken btw), i don't see how this guy won't eventually get banned too based on power level alone.. that's my impression at least. I'd like to be wrong though, this guy looks like a blast to play with.
Thoughts?
About this card specifically, I don't think the restriction to Vampire spells is severe enough not to just make this card busted. A starting hand with a 1 and 2-drop vampire leaves you with FOUR creatures on the board turn 2, and you're in the best removal colors to keep the board clear. That's such a huge tempo advantage and it's hard for me to imagine the current decks-to-beat being able to keep up.
These cards will be really fun in multiplayer though
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
RC, stay off my Mardu toys, dang it!
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
My first impression, though, is that he is a tad too strong for this watered-down format we have right now.
Also, most of the powerhouse 2-drops are BB, that's a tough pill to swallow for a 3-color deck.
Until Ixalan comes out, Edgar is a RB deck with ~6 white cards cards in it. The mana base is fine.
I see you missed that "bad cards" bit. I'm sorry, but I'm not playing bad 1-drops just to trigger eminence...
Also, if you play in an area where they employ sideboards(becoming much more common) this is just a very bad strategy that will lead to a blowout.
About sideboards, if you play with house rules then the normal does not apply to you.
You get Nighthawk, Aetherhawk, Bloodghast, Artist and Gatekeeper. Everything else is limited trash or 4cmc+.
It's actually disheartening, Vampires were meant to become the characteristic black tribe from Zendikar onwards and 8 years later 90% creatures in the best Modern Vampire tribal decks are still from ZEN Standard. They haven't even tried to push the envelope, meanwhile Zombies, Goblins, Elves and Merfolk have all gotten new Eternal-playable cards in the same time period.
This. plus the fact that this effect that gives free 1/1's that can't be interacted with or prevented. i also think being limited to vampires is mitigated somehow by all the tribal synergy.
i honestly don't want him banned, but based on the loosely defined ban rationales as of late, this particular eminence effect seems OP for 20 life..
having 4-5 cmc cards is fine, markov as a commander helps the deck get away with a slower midrange theme because of the naturally strong early game thanks to the eminence effect.
and i'm not sure how many 1-2 drop vampires can still be referred to as bad, when thanks to eminence they all have the extra clause of "when you cast this spell, create a 1/1 token with tribal synergy with the card you just cast"... i think having 2-3 anthem effects like shared triumph, captivating vampire or even the vanilla glorious makes the deck nasty. even non-vamps like hero of bladehold/oxid ridge seems scary here..
I actually like the design space Edgar Markov is taking. He is a mardu swarm general, the first of its kind, and in one of the best combinations to do swarm (probably the only thing better would be naya). I think the deck is going to be insanely strong, and competitive even in mtgo at 30 life. The only downside, as many mentioned, is that you have to play some suboptimal vampires due to limited options, such as quag vampires and vampire cutthroat, but that isn't too bad. First, it means that the deck has a lot of room for improvement the more better vampires are printed. Second, you should see all of the chaff vampires as coming with an extra token, which makes basically even the worst of them an imitation of mogg war marshal, a staple of goblin decks in commander, and a decent card overall (and you get the token even if it is countered, which is insane). Finally, some crappy vampires become hidden gems in a deck like this, such as Indulgent Aristocrat.
As for the topic at hand: yes, he will be banned. Maybe not shortly, but it definitely will happen in 20 life. If you want to build him, do it for mtgo. I'm 100% sure that he and Arahbo are gonna bite it.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
but yeah bout markov i really feel the eminence ability makes him overpowered in 20 life.
since mtgo was mentioned, would he be able to keep up with the meta there?
More people should play more Stony Silence. Or at least some Torch Fiend, guy is crazy under-rated. Not like a bomb by any means, but a solid roleplayer.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
not sure if decks outside of monowhite can afford the room.. but shutting down equipment, rocks and potential combo pieces does warrant consideration. but an enchantment at the 2cmc spot that would compete is RIP so..
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
slipped my mind lol
i wonder if it's explosive enough to impact 20 life that much.. you get the haste token, but it requires you to pay an extra 1, so it delays your wizards a turn for the perk.. unlike markov who literally just gives a free body without altering the cost of the vamp you cast. unless inalla has some kind of broken t4 combo, i think zurgo's gonna plow her all night.. unless i'm missing something again lol
I think Edgar will be very good but not bannable good. At first I thought he was but his power is suppressed by the limitations of his tribe. Part of me almost wants to never cast him and just play him as a mono B deck in order to use Vampire Nocturnus. But there are some really good red vamps. Then again most are BR and would still activate the Nocturnus.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
woah never thought that far. i wonder how easy that'll be to set up..