Abzan was never a trash, Anafenza was very very good against graveyard-centric decks and was very good "out-tempoing" a lot of decks. Doran was very very good against Titania, it was a very good tier 1 deck, I don't remember it taking the meta as other decks did, but I never found them leaving the 3-5% part of the meta, which are awesome numbers. Karador actually got left out EXACTLY because of Anafenza, Anafenza was almost an autowin against Karador, something like 85/15 the matchup if not even more loopsided, its funny because the reason an abzan combo deck (karador) got hated out has a lot to do with another one (Anafenza), but with a totally different style.
Abzan tempo was a tier 1 deck, and I bet if they balance MTGO now, it will become again, it is very very resilient, it just can't face the beasts (Vial, Tasigur, Baral), and things that crush their tempo.
Well I can only say from my own personal experience and maybe I wasn't very good with the deck but combo killed it imo. Jenara is very similar to Doran except it was able to remain tier 1 in a format full of combo. Being able to counter the combo is key because you simply cannot race a good combo deck. Blueless tempo didn't work because it had few efficient ways to disrupt a good combo deck. Anafenza is a sideboard card that's only good against decks that utilize creatures in the GY. Near the end of DC 30 there wasn't many and that's why she was trash. The fact that she's a value 4/4 for 3 is irrelevant at 30 life, It's just too slow. Doran was very good against Titania? I never found that to be the case. At best it may have been 50/50
@Fsecco - I agree, there shouldn't be a 100 percent deck but when the meta is full of bad matchups and only a handful of good ones it's probably a bad deck for the format.
@Yujipooji - Ok trash may have been too harsh. How about sub-par? Not trash but not good enough to feel like you have a real chance at winning against the meta.
I know the feeling, but for me I think you are talking specifically about high tide, that was indeed hard for abzan, elfball and reanimator strategies(Karador, Mimeoplasm, Meren) were matches very winnable from Abzan's side. About Doran vs Titania, I think Doran was not bad against it, of course I didn't mean a super good matchup, but it was not bad. The control matchups were also 50/50 most parts, Keranos was the hardest, but Keranos was not the tier 0 of the format so it is okay. For me abzan was loosing to high tide and Keranos, but was pretty good at outgrinding Geist and some other tempo or creature combo based strategies.
Remember we are not talking if abzan is competitive, that everyone that played DC will say of course it is, but instead talking if it is tier 1 or 2, which to me it is a tier 1, for you a tier 2, but I'm sure you would agree that Abzan Tempo is not a deck that you would bring to any old 30HP DC tournament and get beaten out.
Right now, it isn't competitive on MTGO and DC 20HP, so... its not really the best time to play it xD, but I bet it will be played on both if the formats balance themselves out.
I can't understand how people managed to play 300+ games in leagues these past 2 weeks, I barely made to 60 games and I'm very tired of playing already.
I just hope they ban Emrakul and not Baral this next update, and also that they start publishing all 5-0s and not only 10 randoms.
I agree, Karador, Mimeoplasm and Meren are great MU's for Anafenza. The problem is that for various reasons people stopped playing those decks in DC 30. Without an abundance of those in the meta their isn't a good enough reason to play Anafenza. Perhaps if the format unbans Griselbrand they would come back. I would totally play Mimeo if they unban him, keep the Ooze combo and entomb unbanned.
I actually don't agree with what you said before. I think Anafenza could get beaten out at some me random tourny. Especially if it's full of combo decks. It can probably make 5th-8th easily at a small tourny but I wouldn't bet on anything higher.
It's not just high tide. It had a hard time against stuff like Sidisi too. All they have to do is play Buried Alive when Ana isn't in play. She's easy to kill
@Yujipooji - Ok trash may have been too harsh. How about sub-par? Not trash but not good enough to feel like you have a real chance at winning against the meta.
I dint know you piloted abzan before lol. I think you'd know better if it's bad or not, so your assessment has more weight than mine. I have a friend with an optimized anafenza and it just felt so strong going against it. Though my playgroup had no combo, so maybe that was it. But come to think of it, anafenza's trend follows zurgo a little bit. Always makes top 8's, but never really wins the whole thing.
I can't believe I missed that part of the announcement! Thank you. That said, your post led me to believe this was the sanctioned, paper format we were waiting for. There will always be resistance to this format until Wizards comes out and says that it's meant to be for paper and/or that it's sanctioned. We need 1v1 GPs, for example.
Yeah, this announcement is what made me hope for the format's future. I have no idea where I'd be if they just kept this lame joint banlist we have now. Good that they heard the players cryout and changed their initial line of thought.
There will NEVER be a Commander GP. Just deal with the reality and get over that right now
About being a paper format, I believe it's as legitimate as DC. Both are unsanctioned formats that depend on player acceptance to even exist. So I really don't think it being officially a MTGO format is a problem at all.
@Yujipooji - Ok trash may have been too harsh. How about sub-par? Not trash but not good enough to feel like you have a real chance at winning against the meta.
I dint know you piloted abzan before lol. I think you'd know better if it's bad or not, so your assessment has more weight than mine. I have a friend with an optimized anafenza and it just felt so strong going against it. Though my playgroup had no combo, so maybe that was it. But come to think of it, anafenza's trend follows zurgo a little bit. Always makes top 8's, but never really wins the whole thing.
It probably has to do with the decks you pilot. It has good MU's against Zurgo and Alesha.
Yep I've been a mardu guy ever since I started duel, never switched main colors since. I was 50-50 against anafenza with my kaalia back in 30. It would have been slightly positive since she's "combo", but I auto-lose to stuff like winter orb and tangle wire.
LSV playing commander competitively? This is truly a great time to be alive.
I don't know why you say there will never be commander GPs... this push with channel fireball certainly helps to spread the format. I'm aware there are issues with the reserved list, but depending on how things go for the format and how the banned list ends up, I can see big sanctioned tournaments happening.
Btw, commander already is the most played format if I'm not mistaken. I think it is only natural that it will eventually be taken under WoTC's wings.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
About the reserved list, I don't see it as a problem as I see it on legacy, you need much less reserved cards than legacy since its one of each. Also its important to note that a legacy deck that usually has reserved cards and is made without them, is like a 75% deck, on commander it will be a 95% deck, both because the life lost with shocks is much less relevant with 30HP and also the chances to actually drawing them (with fetches I always prefer basics if I have the colors needed). a set of underrground sea serves 4 different decks, its much easier to control the reserved list on commander.
Also yeah, I'm positive that this can go big :), let's see.
a legacy deck that usually has reserved cards and is made without them, is like a 75% deck, on commander it will be a 95% deck, both because the life lost with shocks is much less relevant with 30HP and also the chances to actually drawing them
ABUs still give you more fetchable duals. Speaking as the guy playing a full suite of fetch, abu, shock, tango, bicycles, and basics...there is really NOTHING like this mana base. Smoother than anything.
why would sideboard be a need for a main event GP if the format doesn't have one xD? That would actually be the best part of having commander as a main event, it would make the time between the matches smaller.
The rest yeah, but shuffling and deck checking in theory, you could bring a 200-card singleton (as long as you can shuffle alone) at a legacy/modern/standard main event, I mean, you won't win anyone, but hey, you can.
Don't mess with commander damage again u_u, some decks gets much better with it present (Rafiq, Prossh, Vendillion Clique, Wydwen...) its a trait from commander, it is historical (21 damage are 3 attacks from the Elder Dragons), they messed it up too much already, leave what is flavorful to the format alone :).
LSV playing commander competitively? This is truly a great time to be alive.
I don't know why you say there will never be commander GPs... this push with channel fireball certainly helps to spread the format. I'm aware there are issues with the reserved list, but depending on how things go for the format and how the banned list ends up, I can see big sanctioned tournaments happening.
Btw, commander already is the most played format if I'm not mistaken. I think it is only natural that it will eventually be taken under WoTC's wings.
Well, there COULD be, one day who knows. But the format is still behind even Legacy in popularity so I doubt there's any incentive to it. It needs to pick up steam on MTGO, be sanctioned and have a player base that warrants a GP. Not even Legacy does that consistently anymore.
And no, Commander is not he most played MTG format. Not the 1x1 Commander we're talking about. I guess a multiplayer Commander GP is not what we're aiming right?
EDIT: since there are a lot of VSL players playing this, what I can envision for the format is a Commander Super League, which would be incredibly awesome.
Oh man, only Strip Mine, Dig and Cruise banned? That seems very loose. Baral/Tasiguir will be driving people away from the leagues and the whole format for the next 2-4 weeks.
July 5th will be the big change, this is a good temporary change.
I truly don't understand what people were expecting from the bans. Do you want to stop blue dominance? The only real way to do that is to put the format at 20 life, which is a point of contention amongst the community.
All throughout DC existence blue was the dominant color (Tasigur, despite being black, is a blue general). The only commanders who could compete against the control strategies were powerful combo/toolbox commanders, such as Marath, Yisan and Animar. Barring that, blue ALWAYS was the dominant color. Before Baral came, Jace VP was a tier 1 deck, but it wasn't played much because it was very tricky to pilot correctly and it took ages to win. Baral has two advantages over Jace: it is easier to play (though still not a cake walk) and has a clear win-plan (Emrakul). Draw-go control always was a strategy with V-clique, and it became truly tier 1 with Baral.
Now, banning Emrakul will not change that. Banning Baral will not change that. You cannot stop blue dominance of the format, just take a look at the history of DC. What is funny is that Yisan, Marath and Necrotic Ooze were all banned because they destroyed other creatures strategies, but most control decks had a fairly reasonable gameplan against them.
Bottomline: don't want BLUE to dominate? Go down to 20 life. Are you bothered especifically by baral? Fine. Have him banned. However, keep in mind that Jace will take his place, and you will have to ban it too, and then V-clique will come along. Btw, I strongly disagree with strip mine banning, since I think mana denial is a good strategy against control decks as well. I agree with banning the delve spells though, merely on the grounds that they're too strong, including outside control shells (in combo and tempo shells, for instance).
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Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
lel the strip min ban will eradicate all the strip mine decks.
So there is even more space for blue.
Just for note banning the dredge draws wont help,they just get replaced with normal instant draws.
Blue has still access to all of his 2-mana counterspells which are the true core of all those decks.
Those spells are so devastating bc they can answer nearly everything relevant and most of the time score a tempo advantage by costing only 2 mana answering for example a 3 or 4 mana card.
On a sidenote one of the advantages of green is that it can break this tempo advantage with one mana elves (1<2 see)
Also blue has still the fastest clock with polymorph-emrakul, tasigur or smasher.
To wrap is up blue has now the best answers + a superior clock in comparison to all other decks.
Get ****ed
This sounds about right. It's so annoying from a game design perspective because blue is supposed to have the slowest win conditions. They are supposed to fight hard to get to the end game and then win if they can get there. Instead they have the end game gift wrapped on a silver platter. I think that if you want to hurt blue at 30 life you have to take away all their good win conditions. But that's a BS response when the real response is to just lower the life total.
Magicmarvin91, what do you think of 25 as a compromise for those who hate 30 and those who hate 20?
Oh man, only Strip Mine, Dig and Cruise banned? That seems very loose. Baral/Tasiguir will be driving people away from the leagues and the whole format for the next 2-4 weeks.
July 5th will be the big change, this is a good temporary change.
No. Attendance dropped because the league was ending and players didn't want to join the league only to be forced to finish them all by Tuesday night.
I'm a bit worried that it will drive people away from the format meanwhile, because I've seen how the numbers of people playing in league dropped recently. I can imagine it's mostly because everyon is sick of the blue on blue Baral/JVP mirrors. And this is not going to change with this ban update. I hope I'm wrong and they'll get it right eventually before people get too frustrated and annoyed.
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They announced a change in the banlist a while ago. Maybe 2 weeks? I'll find it.
EDIT: there you go
http://wizardsmtgo.tumblr.com/post/160343614814/update-mtgo-commander
@Fsecco - I agree, there shouldn't be a 100 percent deck but when the meta is full of bad matchups and only a handful of good ones it's probably a bad deck for the format.
@Yujipooji - Ok trash may have been too harsh. How about sub-par? Not trash but not good enough to feel like you have a real chance at winning against the meta.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Remember we are not talking if abzan is competitive, that everyone that played DC will say of course it is, but instead talking if it is tier 1 or 2, which to me it is a tier 1, for you a tier 2, but I'm sure you would agree that Abzan Tempo is not a deck that you would bring to any old 30HP DC tournament and get beaten out.
Right now, it isn't competitive on MTGO and DC 20HP, so... its not really the best time to play it xD, but I bet it will be played on both if the formats balance themselves out.
I just hope they ban Emrakul and not Baral this next update, and also that they start publishing all 5-0s and not only 10 randoms.
I actually don't agree with what you said before. I think Anafenza could get beaten out at some me random tourny. Especially if it's full of combo decks. It can probably make 5th-8th easily at a small tourny but I wouldn't bet on anything higher.
It's not just high tide. It had a hard time against stuff like Sidisi too. All they have to do is play Buried Alive when Ana isn't in play. She's easy to kill
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I dint know you piloted abzan before lol. I think you'd know better if it's bad or not, so your assessment has more weight than mine. I have a friend with an optimized anafenza and it just felt so strong going against it. Though my playgroup had no combo, so maybe that was it. But come to think of it, anafenza's trend follows zurgo a little bit. Always makes top 8's, but never really wins the whole thing.
I can't believe I missed that part of the announcement! Thank you. That said, your post led me to believe this was the sanctioned, paper format we were waiting for. There will always be resistance to this format until Wizards comes out and says that it's meant to be for paper and/or that it's sanctioned. We need 1v1 GPs, for example.
There will NEVER be a Commander GP. Just deal with the reality and get over that right now
About being a paper format, I believe it's as legitimate as DC. Both are unsanctioned formats that depend on player acceptance to even exist. So I really don't think it being officially a MTGO format is a problem at all.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt6-c3oIOEU
I don't know why you say there will never be commander GPs... this push with channel fireball certainly helps to spread the format. I'm aware there are issues with the reserved list, but depending on how things go for the format and how the banned list ends up, I can see big sanctioned tournaments happening.
Btw, commander already is the most played format if I'm not mistaken. I think it is only natural that it will eventually be taken under WoTC's wings.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Also yeah, I'm positive that this can go big :), let's see.
ABUs still give you more fetchable duals. Speaking as the guy playing a full suite of fetch, abu, shock, tango, bicycles, and basics...there is really NOTHING like this mana base. Smoother than anything.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
The rest yeah, but shuffling and deck checking in theory, you could bring a 200-card singleton (as long as you can shuffle alone) at a legacy/modern/standard main event, I mean, you won't win anyone, but hey, you can.
Don't mess with commander damage again u_u, some decks gets much better with it present (Rafiq, Prossh, Vendillion Clique, Wydwen...) its a trait from commander, it is historical (21 damage are 3 attacks from the Elder Dragons), they messed it up too much already, leave what is flavorful to the format alone :).
Well, there COULD be, one day who knows. But the format is still behind even Legacy in popularity so I doubt there's any incentive to it. It needs to pick up steam on MTGO, be sanctioned and have a player base that warrants a GP. Not even Legacy does that consistently anymore.
And no, Commander is not he most played MTG format. Not the 1x1 Commander we're talking about. I guess a multiplayer Commander GP is not what we're aiming right?
EDIT: since there are a lot of VSL players playing this, what I can envision for the format is a Commander Super League, which would be incredibly awesome.
i'd like to know the answer to this as well
July 5th will be the big change, this is a good temporary change.
All throughout DC existence blue was the dominant color (Tasigur, despite being black, is a blue general). The only commanders who could compete against the control strategies were powerful combo/toolbox commanders, such as Marath, Yisan and Animar. Barring that, blue ALWAYS was the dominant color. Before Baral came, Jace VP was a tier 1 deck, but it wasn't played much because it was very tricky to pilot correctly and it took ages to win. Baral has two advantages over Jace: it is easier to play (though still not a cake walk) and has a clear win-plan (Emrakul). Draw-go control always was a strategy with V-clique, and it became truly tier 1 with Baral.
Now, banning Emrakul will not change that. Banning Baral will not change that. You cannot stop blue dominance of the format, just take a look at the history of DC. What is funny is that Yisan, Marath and Necrotic Ooze were all banned because they destroyed other creatures strategies, but most control decks had a fairly reasonable gameplan against them.
Bottomline: don't want BLUE to dominate? Go down to 20 life. Are you bothered especifically by baral? Fine. Have him banned. However, keep in mind that Jace will take his place, and you will have to ban it too, and then V-clique will come along. Btw, I strongly disagree with strip mine banning, since I think mana denial is a good strategy against control decks as well. I agree with banning the delve spells though, merely on the grounds that they're too strong, including outside control shells (in combo and tempo shells, for instance).
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Magicmarvin91, what do you think of 25 as a compromise for those who hate 30 and those who hate 20?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)