I'll try to explain in other words, and for the last time so we don't end up in circles: I remember the 2 month hiatus we had, I was there. That wasn't a format. It didn't have a banlist, we didn't even know if the Commander rule was still legal or which decks and cards were legal, and people were blindly playing with different banlists and with decks they half-handedly adapted to 20 life. That, FOR ME, isn't what we can call a format. You may say that was balanced, and maybe it was, but the results from that era are, at the very least, tainted data - meaning we have no way to tell if the format is the way it is because of C16 or because of 20 life. I still believe the format would narrow itself to 4-5 Tier 1 decks like it is now, as I believe it will happen if Vial, Breya, Zurgo or whatever are banned in the next annoucement.
I don't think this topic wants to talk only about C16 impact on the format. It was impactful, as probably will be EVERY COMMANDER SET EVER. That's the thing. What I hear people complaining about the format is that it's more fragile and susceptible to domination from fewer decks than it was before. That's it. I'm not even saying that's better or worse, just that it's the way it is and whoever dislikes it should better play something else.
(And before you come back to the subject, I don't even care if Vial is banned or partner is nerfed. Ban/nerf it, it probably deserves anyway. What I'm saying stands true even without Vial/Partner in the format imo)
Well, we clearly didn't see the same announcement because I remember the Committee announcing they'd unban "at least 5 cards".
EDIT: Also, I'm not saying the meta between the September and November 2016 wasn't balanced. I'm saying it doesn't matter because the format that was played in those 2 months never existed and never will. So whatever data we have from that period is basically useless.
Sorry blinketto, you can't get data from 10 tournaments after a huge annoucement and say that is diverse, its clear that even with Vial out, the strength in Geist, Zurgo, Titania and Breya are surpassing others, that is what people need to understand, the first 2 months are more of testing and adapting the decks, that can never be taken as how the meta will be.
I know being on the DC forum is a hard place to argue this, because most people that stoped playing DC are not here anymore (obviously), so the ones left are the ones that liked the change.
@Cainsson: This is the meta in 2016, with most at 30LP:
Titania, Protector of Argoth 87 7 %
Jenara, Asura of War 76 6 %
Abzan Tempo 42 3 %
Zurgo Bellstriker 39 3 %
Marath, Will of the Wild 28 2 %
Geist of Saint Traft 75 6 %
Narset, Enlightened Master 54 4 %
Maelstrom Wanderer 46 4 %
Keranos, God of Storms 36 3 %
Tasigur, the Golden Fang 35 3 %
High Tide 71 6 %
Elfball 49 4 %
Animar, Soul of Elements 41 3 %
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 40 3 %
Sidisi, Reanimator Vizier 27 2 %
Some points: Marath was at 4-5% when it got banned, and Zurgo at 1-2% but got a huge jump in the last 2 months of 2016. If you tell me that isn't a diverse meta, then I want to know what is more diverse then this? And after both Yisan and Tasigur ban, in those 3 months there wasn't any commander above 10% alone.
And for those that say it was counter go, only Keranos fit that role, Geist/Narset are more midrange and Tasigur got axed.
Anyway just to leave some information for those that don't remember...
I know for a fact that some of the small tourneys were still played on 30lp, and the 20lp tourneys were just the same decks with some tweaks, nobody wanted to dump a lot of money in a format that was changing so much, so a lot of ppl waited for the next bans/unbans announcement to start brewing.
Well I was playing DC since the beginning of the format. So I could closely see how the changes and bans of idiotic French commitees continually crippled the format. From the great start, up to this stupid format. So we know whom to celebrate and blame.
There are tons of problems with 20hp DC. Most of them are so obvious, that I can't understand how this madness could have happened.
1) Switching from 30HP to 20HP DC changes the format completely. It is the same like switching modern to sth like 12HP.
2) Introduction of this format brings the problem of what will be the most crucial part of the deck. And surprisigly it is general. That means, to be able to get most of it, you need to have general with very low cmc (breya as only valid 4mana lonesome general is effective, because it is only combo deck in T1, Titania is winning for the reason, that most players have not lowered cmc of their deck yet)
3)to support your low cmc general, you need to have extremely low curve. So you can forget about cards like FoW, for those who have not still understood the format, no this card is no longer playable, like the others which were THE cards for which EDH was played. I am always smiling to the guys coming to the tourneys with their foiled midrange decks, loosing to mindless 25$ zurgo in four turn.
4)to lesser the power of generals in this format. More powerful cards must be present in the decks. This is where those French comitees failed. And that is why (among other reasons I guess), Leviathan was created. With the introduction of this completely new 20HP format, almost all cards, mostly stupidly banned for 30HP, should have been unbanned. If not so, then at least highlander ban list should have been taken. This French failure is even harder then switching to 20HP.
5)I don't need to talk about failure to address problem of partners correctly
6)number of cards with low cmc, which you need to competitively play is very low. This will crawl into minds of all sane players sooner or later. There is no longer space for pet cards with 4+ cmc, for which 30HP format was so popular. There is no reason to play one of 5 possible T1 generals, when you can play legacy with identical curve and much more fun.
Simple consequences: Format is extremely boring. Yes it is format of just about 5-6 decks and NO this is not normal state for any competitive format but Standard. And as I was trying to lob at commitees just before they introduced officially this monstrousity, this format will make people leave (as my friends sadly already started to do so).
So please do not leave but switch back to the roots = Leviathan!!!
In my opinion "leviathan" is stale, boring and inherently not competitive. And my whole city's community seems to agree because there are 10x more people playing DC now than 6 months ago.
Some people want to play 4cmc funstuff and lose to Breya/Vial/Zurgo, some people want to play 4cmc funstuff and lose to Narset/Geist/Titania. 30lp didn't have more decks showing up in tops because it was actually viable to win with them in serious competition but because competition wasn't actually serious. Now deckbuilding, optimization and metagaming are a real thing you can expect even at FNM at least in my area, and sincerelly that's what I want moving forward for Duel Commander because if I'm driving to the LGS to "not take it so seriously" I'd rather play normal Commander then.
Singleton has evolved, now we have Highlander as our standin to Vintage, DC to Legacy, Leviathan to Frontier, and Commander for getting black out drunk while Johnny finishes his convoluted infinite turns combo that fizzles half the time.
As a player that is somewhat removed from the Duel Commander scene, I can honestly say that I think the issue is more metagame related rather than an issue with the life total change (although I would say that the life total change opened the door for the issue to begin with, so perhaps its both) I think that Duel Commander is going through a huge change due to the printing of Commander 2016 similar to the changes that Multiplayer Commander went through when Commander 2011 was released. The presence of a few new commanders, along with their newness and availability making them highly represented in the metagame, can make that metagame feel saturated, stale, and repetitive from a "competitive" standpoint. When C11 came out, it seemed like every game had an Animar, Ghave, Karador, Kaalia, or Edric. Now granted all those decks did something a little different so it didn't feel like it was saturated with aggro, but my assumption is that the current infatuation with Vial Smasher and Breya is very similar.
Well, I would like to see you deck building, what exactly? Since there is so huge gap between breya, zurgo, geist, partner aggro, partner control and the rest, you just need to really believe in luck, to try sth. else. All those T1 decks are mostly solved, so trying sth. else is just a matter of worsening the deck. Power of metagaming is very limited in singleton format.
E.g. zurgo against any midrange deck has prob. of winning at least 70%.
And to summarize, what archetypes are in T1:
tempo control, aggro, combo control
If you look into legacy, at least 15 decks are viable T1 and there is every archetype you can imagine. So I am laughing to people who are matching current edh with legacy.
Well I was playing DC since the beginning of the format. So I could closely see how the changes and bans of idiotic French commitees continually crippled the format. From the great start, up to this stupid format. So we know whom to celebrate and blame.
There are tons of problems with 20hp DC. Most of them are so obvious, that I can't understand how this madness could have happened.
1) Switching from 30HP to 20HP DC changes the format completely. It is the same like switching modern to sth like 12HP.
2) Introduction of this format brings the problem of what will be the most crucial part of the deck. And surprisigly it is general. That means, to be able to get most of it, you need to have general with very low cmc (breya as only valid 4mana lonesome general is effective, because it is only combo deck in T1, Titania is winning for the reason, that most players have not lowered cmc of their deck yet)
3)to support your low cmc general, you need to have extremely low curve. So you can forget about cards like FoW, for those who have not still understood the format, no this card is no longer playable, like the others which were THE cards for which EDH was played. I am always smiling to the guys coming to the tourneys with their foiled midrange decks, loosing to mindless 25$ zurgo in four turn.
4)to lesser the power of generals in this format. More powerful cards must be present in the decks. This is where those French comitees failed. And that is why (among other reasons I guess), Leviathan was created. With the introduction of this completely new 20HP format, almost all cards, mostly stupidly banned for 30HP, should have been unbanned. If not so, then at least highlander ban list should have been taken. This French failure is even harder then switching to 20HP.
5)I don't need to talk about failure to address problem of partners correctly
6)number of cards with low cmc, which you need to competitively play is very low. This will crawl into minds of all sane players sooner or later. There is no longer space for pet cards with 4+ cmc, for which 30HP format was so popular. There is no reason to play one of 5 possible T1 generals, when you can play legacy with identical curve and much more fun.
Simple consequences: Format is extremely boring. Yes it is format of just about 5-6 decks and NO this is not normal state for any competitive format but Standard. And as I was trying to lob at commitees just before they introduced officially this monstrousity, this format will make people leave (as my friends sadly already started to do so).
So please do not leave but switch back to the roots = Leviathan!!!
I don't like 20hp either, but wow, I disagree with so much of what you wrote that I'll have to use the numbers you provided to answer them so I can be organized.
2) No, Breya and Titania are not good because Breya is combo and Titania is bad but no one realized it. They are good because they have a built in card-advantage/tempo engine in them. Breya is not necessarily a combo deck, but mostly a control one, where Breya is used to stabilize the board since its mere presence is a force to be reckoned with. Untap with Breya on board and you're way ahead any other deck. Titania is a ramp deck and although it costs 5, it comes into play turns 2 or 3 and its very tempo-aggressive. And I'm talking about the obvious stuff here, things that any player should spot miles away.
3) That you put FoW as a high curve card baffles me. You do understand you rarely play its CMC right? Sying it's no longer playable makes me, unfortunately, question everything you have to say about the format
4) I love unbanning cards, but it should really be done cautiously because we don't want a format that even faster and more degenerate than it is right now. Do you have any suggestions? Because I look at that list and the only stuff I'd consider is Food Chain. Highlander's banlist is awesome, but for a casual format. It's a very hard list to enforce.
5) They had 1 opportunity so far to deal with partner, and did the right thing in waiting.
6) what are CMC 4+ pet card? I don't see people playing Dismiss anymore. But you do realize this isn't Tiny Leaders and we do need stronger effects that make it possible to come back from losing positions or to further establish control of the game right? If you pack your decks with "CMC 3 minus" only, you're bound to lose mid-game to a more powerful card you can't come back from. Of course there are decks that play lesser CMC cards for tempo reasons, like Zurgo. But making a broad comment about how higher CMC cards are just unplayable is just wrong.
Also, every format has few Tier 1 decks. Those are not the only decks viable, but they are complimented by Tier 2 decks. That stand true to DC too. Tier 1 being Vial/Kraum, Breya, Geist, Zurgo and Titania right now; followed by Tier 2 Jace, Baral, Leovold, Narset, Saskia, Jenara and Partner aggro (which is mixed).
What I do agree, and have always said, is that an Eternal format that is 40% aggro is bound to have less viable decks. Fast aggro plays much like Combo decks, in which you need an answer NOW or you're dead. Sure, aggro decks are easier to answer because we have a plethora of spot and global removal to do it, but in a singleton format, it is not a consistent answer. So yeah, there are fewer viable decks and casual strategies are no longer welcome, but that's not a necessarily bad thing I guess. You're welcome to dislike it though, as I do to.
Singleton has evolved, now we have Highlander as our standin to Vintage, DC to Legacy, Leviathan to Frontier, and Commander for getting black out drunk while Johnny finishes his convoluted infinite turns combo that fizzles half the time.
I'd personally put DC to Modern and Leviathan to Legacy. DC is now widely a midrange format, which resembles Modern much, much more than Legacy.
As a player that is somewhat removed from the Duel Commander scene, I can honestly say that I think the issue is more metagame related rather than an issue with the life total change (although I would say that the life total change opened the door for the issue to begin with, so perhaps its both) I think that Duel Commander is going through a huge change due to the printing of Commander 2016 similar to the changes that Multiplayer Commander went through when Commander 2011 was released. The presence of a few new commanders, along with their newness and availability making them highly represented in the metagame, can make that metagame feel saturated, stale, and repetitive from a "competitive" standpoint. When C11 came out, it seemed like every game had an Animar, Ghave, Karador, Kaalia, or Edric. Now granted all those decks did something a little different so it didn't feel like it was saturated with aggro, but my assumption is that the current infatuation with Vial Smasher and Breya is very similar.
So, suppose for the sake of argument they do ban Vial and Breya. What do you expect the meta to be then? You do realize you're banning 2 of the best control decks in the format, which opens space for aggro to expand its realm even more, right? Don't you think another 2-3 decks will just dominate the meta again and we'll have this domination/ban cycle repeat itself? And then, if and when we stabilize, Commander 2017 comes out and we're back to square one again?
Any potential ground you were trying to break was instantly nullified the moment you classified an archetype as "mindless". Saying an aggressive deck is brainless is no different, equally as absurd, as me calling a heavy permission deck "brainlesscounters.dek". It's OK to hate certain strategies, whether playing against them or otherwise, but the moment you reiterate this foolish line of thought is the moment you have lost any and all credibility.
So, suppose for the sake of argument they do ban Vial and Breya. What do you expect the meta to be then? You do realize you're banning 2 of the best control decks in the format, which opens space for aggro to expand its realm even more, right? Don't you think another 2-3 decks will just dominate the meta again and we'll have this domination/ban cycle repeat itself? And then, if and when we stabilize, Commander 2017 comes out and we're back to square one again?
Perhaps you misunderstand me. My point is that the DC EDH meta is reeling a bit due to C16 similar to how the MP EDH meta reeled a bit when C11 was released (and again when C13 was released). It's just something that is going to happen when you have a sudden influx of powerful cards injected into an environment. What went unsaid was that MP EDH has adapted just fine and I think that DC will also adjust perfectly fine once the newness of the C16 commanders wears off and people start looking at other options for innovation. I don't think that bannings make any sense to be honest; I think unwinding the starting life total change from 20 back to 30 would help more than more bannings. But the issue of the perception of the current metagame being "ruined" or "bad" is just going to be part of the cycle of things.
2) No, Breya and Titania are not good because Breya is combo and Titania is bad but no one realized it. They are good because they have a built in card-advantage/tempo engine in them. Breya is not necessarily a combo deck, but mostly a control one, where Breya is used to stabilize the board since its mere presence is a force to be reckoned with. Untap with Breya on board and you're way ahead any other deck. Titania is a ramp deck and although it costs 5, it comes into play turns 2 or 3 and its very tempo-aggressive. And I'm talking about the obvious stuff here, things that any player should spot miles away.
3) That you put FoW as a high curve card baffles me. You do understand you rarely play its CMC right? Sying it's no longer playable makes me, unfortunately, question everything you have to say about the format
4) I love unbanning cards, but it should really be done cautiously because we don't want a format that even faster and more degenerate than it is right now. Do you have any suggestions? Because I look at that list and the only stuff I'd consider is Food Chain. Highlander's banlist is awesome, but for a casual format. It's a very hard list to enforce.
5) They had 1 opportunity so far to deal with partner, and did the right thing in waiting.
6) what are CMC 4+ pet card? I don't see people playing Dismiss anymore. But you do realize this isn't Tiny Leaders and we do need stronger effects that make it possible to come back from losing positions or to further establish control of the game right? If you pack your decks with "CMC 3 minus" only, you're bound to lose mid-game to a more powerful card you can't come back from. Of course there are decks that play lesser CMC cards for tempo reasons, like Zurgo. But making a broad comment about how higher CMC cards are just unplayable is just wrong.
I did not want to start any hate. I just feel very frustrated of the format. I have always been creating new decks with new ideas in 30HP format which has lower win rate but when I mastered it it was always not less then 40% against T1. Now this is no longer possible. And here all fun just fade away ..
ad 2) I played against Breya a lot of matches (true with Breya only several) and control part takes place only against several decks (like zurgo), otherwise it is really winning through combo, if it manages to survive until turn 5 or 6 (but there might be viable more control build which I have not seen). I played literally hundreds of matches against Titania (true most of them in 30HP format, but competitive version of this deck has not changed much in 20HP) and I don't get how it can do sth. in a format which should a) have tons of low cmc killing or b) be faster - it has definitely some good match ups though, so there will always be positive random pairing which takes this deck to top8 ..
ad 3) it should have been FoF (Fact or Fiction) .. I wrote it at 2am
ad 4) it depends on if you like to play your general which makes the winning for you or rather play cards from your deck. At least for me playing the same general especially when it is so important for the deck, starts to be boring very soon - as this thread is about this issue, I think this is very relevant
ad 5) I agree with you, although I would have started with joined additional cost counter (but it is matter of taste I guess) - now I think it starts to be clear that some change is necessary in this area
ad 6) of course it was exaggeration, nevertheless in 20HP format where you have to play at least equable match with e.g. Zurgo, you simply need to have much lower curve then you had in 30HP. The question is how much. From what I have tested, you need to change it dramatically. Then you are going to leave your "pet" cards in your desks - this was exactly the reason (one of several specifically) why players started playing multiplayer edh from which DC raised. In 30HP format it was more-less still possible (by the time it was getting worse, due to a lot of reasons - more competitive, new cards, etc..), in 20HP you can just dream about it. That point is the most crucial one and this might be the reason why people will start to leave the format (definitely the reason for me). Another quite connected problem is, that the format is lacking a lot of archetypes, which some of the players liked to play - like all kinds of combo decks, reanimators, etc. (which is also caused by very insensitive banning) ...
What I would really love to see is some polling organized by committees - maybe there is 90% percent of the players who are happy and that 10% like myself is just a collateral damage. But if it will be less then I would start to beat a retreat.
The gap is fabricated. Breya loses to Karlov, Zurgo loses to Titania, Geist loses to Sidisi, Vial/X loses to Queen Marchesa.
But nobody is playing those decks because the DC community seems to be half cult of the new, half wannabe Spikes. And there really isn't anywhere to discus deckbuilding. Just look at this very site, everyone is beating the dead horse of improving percentage points on matchups among the solved decks (in a format where percentage points hardly ever matter, we're not getting a GP anytime soon), while completely ignoring every other deck.
We are keeping Breya/Vial/Zurgo on top, not their inherent and imaginary invincibility.
Any potential ground you were trying to break was instantly nullified the moment you classified an archetype as "mindless". Saying an aggressive deck is brainless is no different, equally as absurd, as me calling a heavy permission deck "brainlesscounters.dek". It's OK to hate certain strategies, whether playing against them or otherwise, but the moment you reiterate this foolish line of thought is the moment you have lost any and all credibility.
Out of curiosity, I looked at the most recent 10 decklists in *** tournaments on mtgtop8 for the major archtypes (had to sub in a couple of ** lists for Titania I think, to fill out the 10). First I looked at cards that appeared in all 10 lists:
This really surprised me. And I think part of the reason is that with access to 2, 3, or 4 colors, you have a bunch more obvious staples than in just one color. Titania is the exception here, where the mana elves and the few utility green spells in MTG history are always included (i.e. Beast Within).
If you look at cards that appeared on at least 6 or more decklists from each commander, you get:
So really, Breya is the only decklist that doesn't have a very established set of cards that belong in it. I think this is partly because it's new and people are still figuring out how to play it, but also because it has 4 colors available to it.
Anyways the point here is that in the net-deck era, almost all major decks are brainless, at least from a deckbuilding perspective
Any potential ground you were trying to break was instantly nullified the moment you classified an archetype as "mindless". Saying an aggressive deck is brainless is no different, equally as absurd, as me calling a heavy permission deck "brainlesscounters.dek". It's OK to hate certain strategies, whether playing against them or otherwise, but the moment you reiterate this foolish line of thought is the moment you have lost any and all credibility.
Out of curiosity, I looked at the most recent 10 decklists in *** tournaments on mtgtop8 for the major archtypes (had to sub in a couple of ** lists for Titania I think, to fill out the 10). First I looked at cards that appeared in all 10 lists:
This really surprised me. And I think part of the reason is that with access to 2, 3, or 4 colors, you have a bunch more obvious staples than in just one color. Titania is the exception here, where the mana elves and the few utility green spells in MTG history are always included (i.e. Beast Within).
If you look at cards that appeared on at least 6 or more decklists from each commander, you get:
So really, Breya is the only decklist that doesn't have a very established set of cards that belong in it. I think this is partly because it's new and people are still figuring out how to play it, but also because it has 4 colors available to it.
Anyways the point here is that in the net-deck era, almost all major decks are brainless, at least from a deckbuilding perspective
I think, in the case of Zurgo specifically, that this is more there being a small enough pool of burn and haste that is actually playable. Yeah, there's outliers, such as playing more Volcanic Hammers, but ultimately the corre of a Zurgo deck is going to be roughly the same as another. That doesn't make it any less "brainless". It just means, simply, that there are less good burn spells for that archetype.
Anyways the point here is that in the net-deck era, almost all major decks are brainless, at least from a deckbuilding perspective
Wait, wait. This is your conclusion? You take top tier decks and even when you reduce to 60% appearance on those decks not even half of them look the same, and you think they're all brainless and the same? Well, unless I understood your data wrong, I'm inclined to state otherwise completely. I mean, only half the cards in established decks like Vial, Titania and Geist appear in 60% of the decks? Only around 20 in all of them? That's, like... great! It means there's real diversity and metagame calls in those lists. Am I seeing something wrong?
Breya loses to Karlov, Zurgo loses to Titania, Geist loses to Sidisi, Vial/X loses to Queen Marchesa.
yeah maybe i can play a t2-3 deck that can defeat Breya but i lose to the rest of the field..... and is not even close.
If everyone thought like this nobody would play anything but Jund in Modern. But new decks keep showing up and it's not always because of banlists or new cards, a lot of the time it's just good metagaming.
If everyone thought like this nobody would play anything but Jund in Modern. But new decks keep showing up and it's not always because of banlists or new cards, a lot of the time it's just good metagaming.
Im refering to the examples you gave, those decks can have a positive matchup but still loses to the rest, and i know because i tried...
Bad comparison with modern, this is a 100 card singleton format were is way more hard to metagame against several decks, and now with the life reduction you have way less time against all this aggresive strategies.
As somebody not at all involved with duel commander, the splintering of the banlist into two separate entities was a head-scratcher. Sure, I get the motivation behind the preserving of a 30 life environment, but I imagine this sends a ripple of insecurity through the less enfranchised player base. Add that to all the other reasons mentioned in here, I guess.
Kriggy, 3drinks, Jivanmukta, I assume you three *are* innovating, since you're so upset about this and you have your decks in your signatures.
So what's the deal with your innovations? Are they good but no one is copying them? (would seem to run afoul of your point of everyone just copying each other) Or are they not good? (in which case maybe it's a hard format to innovate in?)
Kriggy, 3drinks, Jivanmukta, I assume you three *are* innovating, since you're so upset about this and you have your decks in your signatures.
So what's the deal with your innovations? Are they good but no one is copying them? (would seem to run afoul of your point of everyone just copying each other) Or are they not good? (in which case maybe it's a hard format to innovate in?)
I'd appreciate you used less of a poor argument. One does not need to create in order to critique.
I don't think this topic wants to talk only about C16 impact on the format. It was impactful, as probably will be EVERY COMMANDER SET EVER. That's the thing. What I hear people complaining about the format is that it's more fragile and susceptible to domination from fewer decks than it was before. That's it. I'm not even saying that's better or worse, just that it's the way it is and whoever dislikes it should better play something else.
(And before you come back to the subject, I don't even care if Vial is banned or partner is nerfed. Ban/nerf it, it probably deserves anyway. What I'm saying stands true even without Vial/Partner in the format imo)
EDIT: Also, I'm not saying the meta between the September and November 2016 wasn't balanced. I'm saying it doesn't matter because the format that was played in those 2 months never existed and never will. So whatever data we have from that period is basically useless.
I know being on the DC forum is a hard place to argue this, because most people that stoped playing DC are not here anymore (obviously), so the ones left are the ones that liked the change.
@Cainsson: This is the meta in 2016, with most at 30LP:
Titania, Protector of Argoth 87 7 %
Jenara, Asura of War 76 6 %
Abzan Tempo 42 3 %
Zurgo Bellstriker 39 3 %
Marath, Will of the Wild 28 2 %
Geist of Saint Traft 75 6 %
Narset, Enlightened Master 54 4 %
Maelstrom Wanderer 46 4 %
Keranos, God of Storms 36 3 %
Tasigur, the Golden Fang 35 3 %
High Tide 71 6 %
Elfball 49 4 %
Animar, Soul of Elements 41 3 %
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher 40 3 %
Sidisi, Reanimator Vizier 27 2 %
Some points: Marath was at 4-5% when it got banned, and Zurgo at 1-2% but got a huge jump in the last 2 months of 2016. If you tell me that isn't a diverse meta, then I want to know what is more diverse then this? And after both Yisan and Tasigur ban, in those 3 months there wasn't any commander above 10% alone.
And for those that say it was counter go, only Keranos fit that role, Geist/Narset are more midrange and Tasigur got axed.
Anyway just to leave some information for those that don't remember...
There are tons of problems with 20hp DC. Most of them are so obvious, that I can't understand how this madness could have happened.
1) Switching from 30HP to 20HP DC changes the format completely. It is the same like switching modern to sth like 12HP.
2) Introduction of this format brings the problem of what will be the most crucial part of the deck. And surprisigly it is general. That means, to be able to get most of it, you need to have general with very low cmc (breya as only valid 4mana lonesome general is effective, because it is only combo deck in T1, Titania is winning for the reason, that most players have not lowered cmc of their deck yet)
3)to support your low cmc general, you need to have extremely low curve. So you can forget about cards like FoW, for those who have not still understood the format, no this card is no longer playable, like the others which were THE cards for which EDH was played. I am always smiling to the guys coming to the tourneys with their foiled midrange decks, loosing to mindless 25$ zurgo in four turn.
4)to lesser the power of generals in this format. More powerful cards must be present in the decks. This is where those French comitees failed. And that is why (among other reasons I guess), Leviathan was created. With the introduction of this completely new 20HP format, almost all cards, mostly stupidly banned for 30HP, should have been unbanned. If not so, then at least highlander ban list should have been taken. This French failure is even harder then switching to 20HP.
5)I don't need to talk about failure to address problem of partners correctly
6)number of cards with low cmc, which you need to competitively play is very low. This will crawl into minds of all sane players sooner or later. There is no longer space for pet cards with 4+ cmc, for which 30HP format was so popular. There is no reason to play one of 5 possible T1 generals, when you can play legacy with identical curve and much more fun.
Simple consequences: Format is extremely boring. Yes it is format of just about 5-6 decks and NO this is not normal state for any competitive format but Standard. And as I was trying to lob at commitees just before they introduced officially this monstrousity, this format will make people leave (as my friends sadly already started to do so).
So please do not leave but switch back to the roots = Leviathan!!!
Some people want to play 4cmc funstuff and lose to Breya/Vial/Zurgo, some people want to play 4cmc funstuff and lose to Narset/Geist/Titania. 30lp didn't have more decks showing up in tops because it was actually viable to win with them in serious competition but because competition wasn't actually serious. Now deckbuilding, optimization and metagaming are a real thing you can expect even at FNM at least in my area, and sincerelly that's what I want moving forward for Duel Commander because if I'm driving to the LGS to "not take it so seriously" I'd rather play normal Commander then.
Singleton has evolved, now we have Highlander as our standin to Vintage, DC to Legacy, Leviathan to Frontier, and Commander for getting black out drunk while Johnny finishes his convoluted infinite turns combo that fizzles half the time.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
E.g. zurgo against any midrange deck has prob. of winning at least 70%.
And to summarize, what archetypes are in T1:
tempo control, aggro, combo control
If you look into legacy, at least 15 decks are viable T1 and there is every archetype you can imagine. So I am laughing to people who are matching current edh with legacy.
I don't like 20hp either, but wow, I disagree with so much of what you wrote that I'll have to use the numbers you provided to answer them so I can be organized.
2) No, Breya and Titania are not good because Breya is combo and Titania is bad but no one realized it. They are good because they have a built in card-advantage/tempo engine in them. Breya is not necessarily a combo deck, but mostly a control one, where Breya is used to stabilize the board since its mere presence is a force to be reckoned with. Untap with Breya on board and you're way ahead any other deck. Titania is a ramp deck and although it costs 5, it comes into play turns 2 or 3 and its very tempo-aggressive. And I'm talking about the obvious stuff here, things that any player should spot miles away.
3) That you put FoW as a high curve card baffles me. You do understand you rarely play its CMC right? Sying it's no longer playable makes me, unfortunately, question everything you have to say about the format
4) I love unbanning cards, but it should really be done cautiously because we don't want a format that even faster and more degenerate than it is right now. Do you have any suggestions? Because I look at that list and the only stuff I'd consider is Food Chain. Highlander's banlist is awesome, but for a casual format. It's a very hard list to enforce.
5) They had 1 opportunity so far to deal with partner, and did the right thing in waiting.
6) what are CMC 4+ pet card? I don't see people playing Dismiss anymore. But you do realize this isn't Tiny Leaders and we do need stronger effects that make it possible to come back from losing positions or to further establish control of the game right? If you pack your decks with "CMC 3 minus" only, you're bound to lose mid-game to a more powerful card you can't come back from. Of course there are decks that play lesser CMC cards for tempo reasons, like Zurgo. But making a broad comment about how higher CMC cards are just unplayable is just wrong.
Also, every format has few Tier 1 decks. Those are not the only decks viable, but they are complimented by Tier 2 decks. That stand true to DC too. Tier 1 being Vial/Kraum, Breya, Geist, Zurgo and Titania right now; followed by Tier 2 Jace, Baral, Leovold, Narset, Saskia, Jenara and Partner aggro (which is mixed).
What I do agree, and have always said, is that an Eternal format that is 40% aggro is bound to have less viable decks. Fast aggro plays much like Combo decks, in which you need an answer NOW or you're dead. Sure, aggro decks are easier to answer because we have a plethora of spot and global removal to do it, but in a singleton format, it is not a consistent answer. So yeah, there are fewer viable decks and casual strategies are no longer welcome, but that's not a necessarily bad thing I guess. You're welcome to dislike it though, as I do to.
I'd personally put DC to Modern and Leviathan to Legacy. DC is now widely a midrange format, which resembles Modern much, much more than Legacy.
So, suppose for the sake of argument they do ban Vial and Breya. What do you expect the meta to be then? You do realize you're banning 2 of the best control decks in the format, which opens space for aggro to expand its realm even more, right? Don't you think another 2-3 decks will just dominate the meta again and we'll have this domination/ban cycle repeat itself? And then, if and when we stabilize, Commander 2017 comes out and we're back to square one again?
We're not getting a c17 this year. We're getting Commander Anthologies.
Any potential ground you were trying to break was instantly nullified the moment you classified an archetype as "mindless". Saying an aggressive deck is brainless is no different, equally as absurd, as me calling a heavy permission deck "brainlesscounters.dek". It's OK to hate certain strategies, whether playing against them or otherwise, but the moment you reiterate this foolish line of thought is the moment you have lost any and all credibility.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Perhaps you misunderstand me. My point is that the DC EDH meta is reeling a bit due to C16 similar to how the MP EDH meta reeled a bit when C11 was released (and again when C13 was released). It's just something that is going to happen when you have a sudden influx of powerful cards injected into an environment. What went unsaid was that MP EDH has adapted just fine and I think that DC will also adjust perfectly fine once the newness of the C16 commanders wears off and people start looking at other options for innovation. I don't think that bannings make any sense to be honest; I think unwinding the starting life total change from 20 back to 30 would help more than more bannings. But the issue of the perception of the current metagame being "ruined" or "bad" is just going to be part of the cycle of things.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I did not want to start any hate. I just feel very frustrated of the format. I have always been creating new decks with new ideas in 30HP format which has lower win rate but when I mastered it it was always not less then 40% against T1. Now this is no longer possible. And here all fun just fade away ..
ad 2) I played against Breya a lot of matches (true with Breya only several) and control part takes place only against several decks (like zurgo), otherwise it is really winning through combo, if it manages to survive until turn 5 or 6 (but there might be viable more control build which I have not seen). I played literally hundreds of matches against Titania (true most of them in 30HP format, but competitive version of this deck has not changed much in 20HP) and I don't get how it can do sth. in a format which should a) have tons of low cmc killing or b) be faster - it has definitely some good match ups though, so there will always be positive random pairing which takes this deck to top8 ..
ad 3) it should have been FoF (Fact or Fiction) .. I wrote it at 2am
ad 4) it depends on if you like to play your general which makes the winning for you or rather play cards from your deck. At least for me playing the same general especially when it is so important for the deck, starts to be boring very soon - as this thread is about this issue, I think this is very relevant
ad 5) I agree with you, although I would have started with joined additional cost counter (but it is matter of taste I guess) - now I think it starts to be clear that some change is necessary in this area
ad 6) of course it was exaggeration, nevertheless in 20HP format where you have to play at least equable match with e.g. Zurgo, you simply need to have much lower curve then you had in 30HP. The question is how much. From what I have tested, you need to change it dramatically. Then you are going to leave your "pet" cards in your desks - this was exactly the reason (one of several specifically) why players started playing multiplayer edh from which DC raised. In 30HP format it was more-less still possible (by the time it was getting worse, due to a lot of reasons - more competitive, new cards, etc..), in 20HP you can just dream about it. That point is the most crucial one and this might be the reason why people will start to leave the format (definitely the reason for me). Another quite connected problem is, that the format is lacking a lot of archetypes, which some of the players liked to play - like all kinds of combo decks, reanimators, etc. (which is also caused by very insensitive banning) ...
What I would really love to see is some polling organized by committees - maybe there is 90% percent of the players who are happy and that 10% like myself is just a collateral damage. But if it will be less then I would start to beat a retreat.
But nobody is playing those decks because the DC community seems to be half cult of the new, half wannabe Spikes. And there really isn't anywhere to discus deckbuilding. Just look at this very site, everyone is beating the dead horse of improving percentage points on matchups among the solved decks (in a format where percentage points hardly ever matter, we're not getting a GP anytime soon), while completely ignoring every other deck.
We are keeping Breya/Vial/Zurgo on top, not their inherent and imaginary invincibility.
yeah maybe i can play a t2-3 deck that can defeat Breya but i lose to the rest of the field..... and is not even close.
Breya: 6
Zurgo: 13
Geist: 12
Titania: 21
Vial/Kraum: 19
This really surprised me. And I think part of the reason is that with access to 2, 3, or 4 colors, you have a bunch more obvious staples than in just one color. Titania is the exception here, where the mana elves and the few utility green spells in MTG history are always included (i.e. Beast Within).
If you look at cards that appeared on at least 6 or more decklists from each commander, you get:
Breya: 27
Zurgo: 47
Geist: 48
Titania: 49
Vial/Kraum: 49
So really, Breya is the only decklist that doesn't have a very established set of cards that belong in it. I think this is partly because it's new and people are still figuring out how to play it, but also because it has 4 colors available to it.
Anyways the point here is that in the net-deck era, almost all major decks are brainless, at least from a deckbuilding perspective
I think, in the case of Zurgo specifically, that this is more there being a small enough pool of burn and haste that is actually playable. Yeah, there's outliers, such as playing more Volcanic Hammers, but ultimately the corre of a Zurgo deck is going to be roughly the same as another. That doesn't make it any less "brainless". It just means, simply, that there are less good burn spells for that archetype.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Wait, wait. This is your conclusion? You take top tier decks and even when you reduce to 60% appearance on those decks not even half of them look the same, and you think they're all brainless and the same? Well, unless I understood your data wrong, I'm inclined to state otherwise completely. I mean, only half the cards in established decks like Vial, Titania and Geist appear in 60% of the decks? Only around 20 in all of them? That's, like... great! It means there's real diversity and metagame calls in those lists. Am I seeing something wrong?
If everyone thought like this nobody would play anything but Jund in Modern. But new decks keep showing up and it's not always because of banlists or new cards, a lot of the time it's just good metagaming.
Im refering to the examples you gave, those decks can have a positive matchup but still loses to the rest, and i know because i tried...
Bad comparison with modern, this is a 100 card singleton format were is way more hard to metagame against several decks, and now with the life reduction you have way less time against all this aggresive strategies.
Bingo.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
This is, has always been, and seemingly will continue to be the problem with the format.
So what's the deal with your innovations? Are they good but no one is copying them? (would seem to run afoul of your point of everyone just copying each other) Or are they not good? (in which case maybe it's a hard format to innovate in?)
I'd appreciate you used less of a poor argument. One does not need to create in order to critique.