"Dear Duel Commander fans,
We would like to thank you all for your feedback regarding the starting life points change. We truly understand your fears from this change, possibly resulting in a domination of aggressive decks. If we refer to the plenty of intensive tests we've been doing over the past six months, this fear is vastly unjustified. We expect tournaments that show a new metagame that won't be dominated by aggressive decks.
Following the observations from Tournament Organizers around the world, we took the decision to move the 11th November announcement to Tuesday, 8th November.
We would also like to clarify that none of the 5 (or more) announced unbanned cards will be a Legendary Creature. This, of course, doesn't mean Commander unbans could not be announced later on, but we wish to evaluate the new metagame, along with Commander 2016 and this new life totals rule first.
Once again, we want to thank you all for your feedback, interest, opinions and involvement."
I am also a HUGE advocate for humility to be unbanned as well.
I have to ask. . .
Why?
I don't mean that to insult you or anything, I genuinely just don't get it.
Whats the reason for it being banned? In my humble opinion the fact that both humility and tabernacle were both banned was the reason the format went to hell in the first place. Those were some of the best cards at slowing down elf decks but with them gone those decks ran amok and basically force the RC to think about banned green cards until things evened out. That's just my opinion though.
In a 20 life meta, 1/1's can still kill you and mono red has the reach to still win and white weenie decks play disenchants so the card isn't as strong as before when all green had was reclamation sage. Which was strange because green (along with white) is the best at killing enchantments but since people who play this format don't like to make deck building adjustments to cards they lose to their mindset is to have everything banned instead of playing around cards.
Most green decks only play creature removal (reclamation sage, harmonic sliver etc.), but that's a choice not any rule you have to only play those cards.
If you play a 3 color deck and you know price of progress is a card you could lose to, play more basics. Same goes for B2B. There's no need to ban these cards when you can build your deck to compensate. This is how competitive formats work.
When people see a format where humility is banned but survival and to a lesser extent Sylvan library are banned then something is really wrong.
Tabernacle doesn't do much against elves, it's basically a Wasteland for Gaea's Cradle or a Snuff Out for Priest of Titania. Definitely not one of the best cards for slowing them down; Earthquake, Wrath of God, Damnation are really the only way to significantly turn the tide of the game.
When did green only have Reclamation sage? That comment alone is funny as all hell, Reclamation Sage is way to new to be the only green answer to enchantments... EVER.... ^^
Unbanning cards that help against aggro when trying to make aggro more prevalent is not a right decision I would think at least, but oh wel.. people seem to just want all their good stuff being unbanned..
I realy dun mind either way mind you, but I find some opinions on why something should be unbanned at the very least funny to read.
But opinions can differ of course, wil see where this goes, though I doubt cards like Tabernacle wil be unbanned that easily/fast.. ^^
I edited my post to clarify before seeing yours but how many non creature enchantment removals do you see green decks running? Karn, Ugin, Ulamog?? And with humility banned they didn't have to. My point was that Humility was a card that could have helped balance the format in some ways but instead it was allowed to spiral into degeneracy.
Aggro was never a thing at 30 life with or without humility/tabernacle so that point is moot. The change to 20 life evens up the playing field drastically. Those cards are no longer "GG" against the best aggro decks. I have a feeling most people advocating for the bans of hum/tab have never played against these cards. I saw one person in this thread call tabernacle a "wrath" for 0 mana. Tabernacle is not a wrath. Are we going to ban glacial chasm too? Maze of ith?
Tabernacle doesn't do much against elves, it's basically a Wasteland for Gaea's Cradle or a Snuff Out for Priest of Titania. Definitely not one of the best cards for slowing them down; Earthquake, Wrath of God, Damnation are really the only way to significantly turn the tide of the game.
Correct but it slows them since they don't get to use all of the extra mana.
I think mtgbarbados is correct in wanting to unban humility. Not to sure of Tabernacle. I don't remember the reasoning behind humility being banned but I think it had to do with games taking forever to play at 30 life. Basically the same problem with Sensei's div top. Now that the format is 20 life I think both cards are fine.
I think mtgbarbados is correct in wanting to unban humility. Not to sure of Tabernacle. I don't remember the reasoning behind humility being banned but I think it had to do with games taking forever to play at 30 life. Basically the same problem with Sensei's div top. Now that the format is 20 life I think both cards are fine.
Humility is an extra piece that prison decks don't really need, Prison decks won't get banned because they're too good but because they go to time while people refuse to give in, and frankly I don't blame them. The fewer decks that can lock players out the better. I'm ok with dumb decks that win, but dumb decks that simply not-loose? No. Ick. Gross.
I think mtgbarbados is correct in wanting to unban humility. Not to sure of Tabernacle. I don't remember the reasoning behind humility being banned but I think it had to do with games taking forever to play at 30 life. Basically the same problem with Sensei's div top. Now that the format is 20 life I think both cards are fine.
Humility is an extra piece that prison decks don't really need, Prison decks won't get banned because they're too good but because they go to time while people refuse to give in, and frankly I don't blame them. The fewer decks that can lock players out the better. I'm ok with dumb decks that win, but dumb decks that simply not-loose? No. Ick. Gross.
http://www.duelcommander.com/2013/08/whats-in-a-banlist/
A couple of cards are especially strong in Duel Commander because of the structure of the format. Karakas is repeatable removal for the commander. While it’s tempting to errata the card so that it can’t target commanders, we prefer having cards play as close as possible to their actual wording, for one simple reason: if a player finds a card, that should be all the information they need. No extra knowledge such as “doesn’t work on commanders” should be necessary. That’s why we chose to simply ban it. Humility is another such card. Because every Duel Commander deck plays at least a creature (their commander) and most decks rely on being able to cast it and use it, Humility puts a big stress on the format, even though it has not been played that much.
(...)
To summarize, here are the main principles we’re using for the banlist:
1 No regular turn 4 kills
2 Power level
3 Spirit of format
4 Suitability for casual play groups
5 Deck balancing
From What I understand, the reasoning is that both Karakas and Humility break the spirit of the format, whether it's 30 or 20 life, it affects the game the same way
This seems silly to me because humility isn't even banned in multiplayer which I would think "spirit of the format" would hold more weight.
Boy there are a bunch of holes in that Humility banning logic.
There are 20 commanders I can think of which don't need to be creatures - that is the 15 Gods and the 5 planeswalkers you can use as commanders. I think it's a nice strategic benefit to play one of them precisely because cards like Humility (and Wrath of God, and Terror) will be dead draws for your opponent.
Humility didn't "stress" the format at all, anyways. It stressed some games for sure, but I don't think too many people lost a game or two to Humility and said to themselves that they need to scrap their deck because they can't beat that one card that 95% of decks didn't even play.
Hah, I've built decks for three of those that didn't have creatures at all.
Add up decks led by Keranos and Teferi planeswalker and you probably have a larger portion of the metagame than decks that played Humility.
Point stands though: their argument was that the card "stressed" the format, but:
I don't think too many people lost a game or two to Humility and said to themselves that they need to scrap their deck because they can't beat that one card that 95% of decks didn't even play.
I was unable to get more info, just received this by mail since Inwas preregistered for a trial. No idea if the tournament organizer (bazaar of moxen) was coordinated witg the comitte or not
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Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show Duel Commander:Kess High Tide Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Nah, Grindstone unban just begs for it to be banned again next cycle, makes no sense. Unless they want to ban Painter's Servant at the same time to nerf Animar.
Dunno, Humility is still a 2WW do-nothing enchantment, all in all.
I wouldn't say that. Soft countering Zurgo/Kytheon first turns then dropping Humility will make all their dudes lose haste and stuff like Eidolon, Scab-Clan and Mindsparker be way easier to deal with. Also helps deal with flyers. Granted, you need to survive the first 4 turns first, but that always the plan: survive 4 turns, drops some stuff they can't deal with.
I won't even say it shouldn't be unbanned, since there are other cards that screw commander-based decks like Nevermore and Meddling Mage. I just really don't want to deal with the rules behind Humility because they can bend your head. Layers are the worst.
I find it funny that you forget Enlightened Tutor, Trinket Mage, Trasnmute Artifact, Tezzeret the Seeker, etc, etc, etc. Even Animar can just shove a Grindstone in the deck since it already plays Painter, can tutor for creatures easily and can play Trinket Mage for Grindstone.
I think that if we want Painter/Grindstone unbanned in the format, might as well unban Time Vault too. Makes no sense to unban one and not the other.
I won't comment personal bull***t attacks, think you should be more polite and broad minded than that.
Or you could shut up now, since we're not even talking about facts - this whole topic is here just to gather general assumptions and predictions. Nothing said here has or could have any evidence to it.
So I'll just forget how arrogant you're sounding right now and answer you with ideas: I don't think 2 card combos that end the game immediately, and are artifact based (the easiest type to tutor) are healthy. See? It's simple. I don't think they are. Do you think they are? Why?
I'd play it in probably every deck I have, except Keranos maybe - but maybe even Keranos. Daretti would love that, of course. Rashmi and Jace could probably use them too. It would be cool to finally make Transmute Artifact staple powerful.
ps: Actually Keranos would probably love to play Painter, having access to REB/Pyro, BEB/Hydro.
Hi there people. Just a friendly reminder that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You are free to disagree with those opinions, but please don't insult the people making them. Thank you.
A card/board state being complicated is not reasoning for a ban. If Humility is a fair card balance-wise it should come off. It's on the players to learn what cards do and the rules of the game in a competitive format or for judges to be able to explain.
"Dear Duel Commander fans,
We would like to thank you all for your feedback regarding the starting life points change. We truly understand your fears from this change, possibly resulting in a domination of aggressive decks. If we refer to the plenty of intensive tests we've been doing over the past six months, this fear is vastly unjustified. We expect tournaments that show a new metagame that won't be dominated by aggressive decks.
Following the observations from Tournament Organizers around the world, we took the decision to move the 11th November announcement to Tuesday, 8th November.
We would also like to clarify that none of the 5 (or more) announced unbanned cards will be a Legendary Creature. This, of course, doesn't mean Commander unbans could not be announced later on, but we wish to evaluate the new metagame, along with Commander 2016 and this new life totals rule first.
Once again, we want to thank you all for your feedback, interest, opinions and involvement."
Whats the reason for it being banned? In my humble opinion the fact that both humility and tabernacle were both banned was the reason the format went to hell in the first place. Those were some of the best cards at slowing down elf decks but with them gone those decks ran amok and basically force the RC to think about banned green cards until things evened out. That's just my opinion though.
In a 20 life meta, 1/1's can still kill you and mono red has the reach to still win and white weenie decks play disenchants so the card isn't as strong as before when all green had was reclamation sage. Which was strange because green (along with white) is the best at killing enchantments but since people who play this format don't like to make deck building adjustments to cards they lose to their mindset is to have everything banned instead of playing around cards.
Most green decks only play creature removal (reclamation sage, harmonic sliver etc.), but that's a choice not any rule you have to only play those cards.
If you play a 3 color deck and you know price of progress is a card you could lose to, play more basics. Same goes for B2B. There's no need to ban these cards when you can build your deck to compensate. This is how competitive formats work.
When people see a format where humility is banned but survival and to a lesser extent Sylvan library are banned then something is really wrong.
I edited my post to clarify before seeing yours but how many non creature enchantment removals do you see green decks running? Karn, Ugin, Ulamog?? And with humility banned they didn't have to. My point was that Humility was a card that could have helped balance the format in some ways but instead it was allowed to spiral into degeneracy.
Aggro was never a thing at 30 life with or without humility/tabernacle so that point is moot. The change to 20 life evens up the playing field drastically. Those cards are no longer "GG" against the best aggro decks. I have a feeling most people advocating for the bans of hum/tab have never played against these cards. I saw one person in this thread call tabernacle a "wrath" for 0 mana. Tabernacle is not a wrath. Are we going to ban glacial chasm too? Maze of ith?
Correct but it slows them since they don't get to use all of the extra mana.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Humility is an extra piece that prison decks don't really need, Prison decks won't get banned because they're too good but because they go to time while people refuse to give in, and frankly I don't blame them. The fewer decks that can lock players out the better. I'm ok with dumb decks that win, but dumb decks that simply not-loose? No. Ick. Gross.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
This seems silly to me because humility isn't even banned in multiplayer which I would think "spirit of the format" would hold more weight.
There are 20 commanders I can think of which don't need to be creatures - that is the 15 Gods and the 5 planeswalkers you can use as commanders. I think it's a nice strategic benefit to play one of them precisely because cards like Humility (and Wrath of God, and Terror) will be dead draws for your opponent.
Humility didn't "stress" the format at all, anyways. It stressed some games for sure, but I don't think too many people lost a game or two to Humility and said to themselves that they need to scrap their deck because they can't beat that one card that 95% of decks didn't even play.
Add up decks led by Keranos and Teferi planeswalker and you probably have a larger portion of the metagame than decks that played Humility.
Point stands though: their argument was that the card "stressed" the format, but:
Right?
Humility
Gifts ungiven
Yawgmoth bargain
Serra ascendant
Grindstone
I was unable to get more info, just received this by mail since Inwas preregistered for a trial. No idea if the tournament organizer (bazaar of moxen) was coordinated witg the comitte or not
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
I wouldn't say that. Soft countering Zurgo/Kytheon first turns then dropping Humility will make all their dudes lose haste and stuff like Eidolon, Scab-Clan and Mindsparker be way easier to deal with. Also helps deal with flyers. Granted, you need to survive the first 4 turns first, but that always the plan: survive 4 turns, drops some stuff they can't deal with.
I won't even say it shouldn't be unbanned, since there are other cards that screw commander-based decks like Nevermore and Meddling Mage. I just really don't want to deal with the rules behind Humility because they can bend your head. Layers are the worst.
QFT. #WorseThanLicids
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
I think that if we want Painter/Grindstone unbanned in the format, might as well unban Time Vault too. Makes no sense to unban one and not the other.
I won't comment personal bull***t attacks, think you should be more polite and broad minded than that.
So I'll just forget how arrogant you're sounding right now and answer you with ideas: I don't think 2 card combos that end the game immediately, and are artifact based (the easiest type to tutor) are healthy. See? It's simple. I don't think they are. Do you think they are? Why?
ps: Actually Keranos would probably love to play Painter, having access to REB/Pyro, BEB/Hydro.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
You guys are convincing me Humility is not a big deal, actually.