It's not even wrath of god since the format is soooo full of elves, they just pay for themselves. Which in my view is fair. Formats usually have checks and balances to strategies. Right now elf strategies are allowed to run rampant without any checks. Long gone are the days where wraths used to kill elf decks. Green has more card advantage than any color right now, plus they have tutors AND repeatable tutors but Humility and Tabernacle are no good for this format. It's mind boggling. [b]Theyre lands to make spells uncounterable which is fine but putting a tax from all in creature strats isnt??[/c]
And while i would never call for an elf ban , Jehuty is correct. Yes cursed totem is a card but theres only 1 totem and tons of redundancy in mana dorks.
Imo there is a difference in power level between disrupting counterspells (1 aspect of 1 colour and creatures.
You are right though, its not a wrath but I think it would make decks like Zurgo and Kytheon completely unplayaeble if dropped T1
Well, your opinion doesn't match the facts. There's a reason why Rofellos is banned, and Selvala can very well be faster. And the deck is very stable, plus it can play a rather typical big green gameplan, if somehow, you don't draw into the 1/10th of the deck that tutors for gamebreakers. Or the other 1/10th that are said gamebreakers.
Selvala can't really be faster than Rofellos, since they're both making all of their mana on turn 3 in an ideal situation. I guess she could be more powerful than Rofellos, but can also be less powerful. And she requires other cards to be good. Rofellos has 6 mana on turn 3, every time. And tips the game right then and there, with Ritual of Subdual or Plow Under or Wurmcoil or whatever.
Selvala is fun but nowhere near as consistent as Rofellos yet.
I remember someone in this thread calling for a pre-emptive ban on Teferi So yeah, prognosticating about future bans is probably not that productive, given the track record.
Leovold is strong, he is a card that can get banned as a commander yeah, but I've tested selvala a lot, and it seems like an awesome deck, but... She is not as consistent as Nissa (being the purpose of the deck really alike), yes she is more explosive, but she isn't as explosive as Animar for example, so taking all this in account, she looks less consistent than Nissa and less explosive than Animar, in which both aren't banned. I can't see her dominate the field, wipes take care of her, different from what Yisan was, and she can give advantage to the aggro decks, for example Zurgo and Jenara has plenty of 3/4 power drops that can get draws from Selvala before you drop a fattie.
She will surely show up on some top 8 lists, and I really want to try to make one of the first lists to appear xD, but I don't think she will appear more then Animars, Jenaras and Titanias.
Well, since Lightning Bolt, Dismember, Dead/Gone, Electrolyze, Ulcerate, Darkblast, etc. take care of Rofellos, I can't see why he can't be unbanned.
I'd imagine having a general that reads: 'have removal in your opening + 1, or die' isn't particularily helpful for the format
Especially in a metagame where targeted creature removal are often dead cards (lookin at you Narset, Keranos and sometimes Geist). I really don't want to have to load my decks up with targeted creature removal because it will really hurt my matchups against those Tier 1 decks.
It's funny how 90% of the format's issues would go away if we implemented sideboards. But also they're so bad to implement tournament-wise...
It also causes brand new problems for the format. Control adds more wraths to deal with aggro. Aggro doesn't have the tools to deal with it. It doesn't seem like aggro would benefit in the slightest with sideboards.
I don't know. "Aggro" is such a wide term. A lot of decks could pack graveyard removal in the sideboard to deal with strategies like Jace, Leovold, etc. But I won't try and make the topic about sideboard, because I don't even think they should be implemented.
It's funny how 90% of the format's issues would go away if we implemented sideboards. But also they're so bad to implement tournament-wise...
It also causes brand new problems for the format. Control adds more wraths to deal with aggro. Aggro doesn't have the tools to deal with it. It doesn't seem like aggro would benefit in the slightest with sideboards.
Passing the turn with 3 or 4 mana up to cast those spells while: 1.) having a board that warrants a wrath and 2.) that being such an early turn that the control has to tappout to cast said wrath makes those cards not very good as counters to wraths.
The only commanders that have a good chance against wraths are Jenara since she puts pressure by herself and has soft counters to fight them and Titania since you get value when you recast her. Maybe that's why they are so popular right now.
No no, sideboard is really awful to the format in a way most can't see. I'll tell you why, you are on a singleton format, if you allow sideboarding what would be the best decks to use? Goodstuff, simple as that, why? because you can't sideboard really well against goodstuff decks, and different from other formats where goodstuff is not a main way to build decks, and also 4 ofs, sideboard is healthy. Let me explain better, how do you sideboard against Jenara? or a Leovold goodstuff? or an Anafenza deck? If sideboarding is allowed on DC, it would kill pratically all tier 2 decks that has a GY, recursion, commander centric deck, and other more fragile strategies that are only alive because of the singleton way the format works. With 15 card SB, I can kill any Zurgo, Alesha, Mimeoplasm, Elfballs, Kaalia, and much more Tier 2 decks... and I can't see new decks coming up because of sideboard, only the less fragile decks standing out even more which are Jenara, TItania Narset... SB is bad, if you want to try something is 25 life, 20 life is also really bad, since I already played with Zurgo, and if I make every match I left him with 10- life a win for me, that would be a deck to beat, and I can't see that as healthy for the format.
SB only allows the most opressive commanders to come back, which... is like taking a step back, sideboard against Zur or die doesn't look healthy also.
No no, sideboard is really awful to the format in a way most can't see. I'll tell you why, you are on a singleton format, if you allow sideboarding what would be the best decks to use? Goodstuff, simple as that, why? because you can't sideboard really well against goodstuff decks, and different from other formats where goodstuff is not a main way to build decks, and also 4 ofs, sideboard is healthy. Let me explain better, how do you sideboard against Jenara? or a Leovold goodstuff? or an Anafenza deck? If sideboarding is allowed on DC, it would kill pratically all tier 2 decks that has a GY, recursion, commander centric deck, and other more fragile strategies that are only alive because of the singleton way the format works. With 15 card SB, I can kill any Zurgo, Alesha, Mimeoplasm, Elfballs, Kaalia, and much more Tier 2 decks... and I can't see new decks coming up because of sideboard, only the less fragile decks standing out even more which are Jenara, TItania Narset... SB is bad, if you want to try something is 25 life, 20 life is also really bad, since I already played with Zurgo, and if I make every match I left him with 10- life a win for me, that would be a deck to beat, and I can't see that as healthy for the format.
SB only allows the most opressive commanders to come back, which... is like taking a step back, sideboard against Zur or die doesn't look healthy also.
Is it possible that you consistantly win with Zurgo at 20 life because your opponents don't know how to properly compinsate yet? Were they running life gain cards or stuff to slow aggro down like Wall of Omens or Night of Souls' Betrayal? Because thats the type of changes that a 20 life meta may lead to. I apologise if I'm comming off sassy, just honestly curious. I think that if DC did change to 20 life it would take the meta a long time to properly adjust. Decks are currently fine-tuned to play against control and Green rampy titania things. They just aren't suited to play against aggro yet.
I'm not sure between 20 or 25 life per say but I truly believe that boros colours would become a lot more viable if the LP was lowered. I think the inferior card advantage of boros which ultimately leads to its absence in the format wouldn't hold it back as much if the games were shorter.
Edit: Wurmcoil Engine is a great example. The ammount of life it gains is generally death to aggro if it sticks. I believe this is why it see's as much play as it does in modern which is dominated by aggro while it see's very little in DC
To be brief about it: Elves have ebbed and flowed in dominance and viability over the years as a result of particularly oppressive Commanders, and decks that seemed dominant and format-warping at various times were either adapted to or experienced bans if they were presenting problems in tournaments and/or discouraging newcomers from returning. There were even times where I had to scale back the dorks almost entirely because playing them was suicide in the meta. This might all be dismissed as anecdotal and limited, but in fairness, nearly 100% of my experience is playing on Cockatrice with a more diverse, global meta and my obsession with breaking apart and understanding top 8 decks. Speaking of...
I would argue that this format is brilliantly diverse right now and elves have not hindered that diversity, and we have global tournament data to back that up: http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=EDH
At present, 56% of top 8 decks from tournaments around the world don't have access to Green and/or don't use Elves in their more popular builds. Arguably, at least 1/3 of the top non-green decks aren't even what I'd describe as "Extinction" builds (they're not designed with murdering all creatures at all times in mind); rather, they're employing other strategies to achieve victory that don't require mass-elf genocide, like High Tide or Mono-White Aggro. I've watched Elf decks absolutely crumble against decks with even a tiny bit of tuning for mass creature removal or just crumble in on themselves from running out of gas and never getting their bomb in hand—or if I'm watching from the other end of the table, I've watched Elf players concede the moment I cast Linvala. ;P
Again, sorry, I'm trying to keep personal anecdotes to a minimum. Let's talk about "slowing down the format." From a purely practical standpoint, slowing down the format by removing all fast mana options would likely make paper tournaments impossible. Whether dork-based decks are winning the tournaments or not, their very existence steers deckbuilders towards faster, more efficient strategies and options. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe matchups like, say, Grand Arbiter mirror matches are a huge headache for tournament organizers and these games regularly have to be called for time. Getting in up to 3 matches within an hour (or 50 to 55 minutes) requires a certain speed of the format, one that is arguably made possible by dorks. It's for that same reason, as I understand it, that sideboards can never become a part of Duel Commander.
BIG-TIME EDIT:
I STAND VERY CORRECTED. Ban the hell out of new Selvela. Hi, Spas. ;P
Though I'm conflicted on whether or not consistent turn 3 or consistent turn 4 hard-casting Emrakul is really a big difference. Which is to say, I'm still for banning really problematic Commanders over banning mana dorks (and seriously, wtf is with giving them all THREE toughness??). Not even Rofellos had that kind of raw power... #ptsd
Sideboards are needed. Just like in any format you need some sort of silver bullet to even out in bad matchups. It's only fair. It will also make decks more robust as they will have to have multiple paths to victory, not just one.
I play Surrak twin, and here is my sideboard
CONTROL
Red Elemental blast
pyroblast
Teferi
Counter flux
Double Negative(M.wander)
GY strategies
Tormods crypt
Loaming Shaman
Elf based
Cursed totem
Submerge
Dream Tides
Aggro
Chain lightning
Anger of the gods
Shattering Spree
Bribery
Breath of Darigaaz
I don't think sideboards would hurt as you still have to find the singleton card. You don't have to dilute you main deck with answers. 1st game you implement your strategy. 2nd and 3rd game you adjust to the matchup
I fully believ time issues on cards like top, brainstorm, and library are player issues and not card/format ones. People need to learn to play reasonably with cards or not with them at all.
Karador Pattern Rector GWB
Anafenza the Foremost GWB
Meren of Clan Nel Toth (Stax)GB
[Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
Imo there is a difference in power level between disrupting counterspells (1 aspect of 1 colour and creatures.
You are right though, its not a wrath but I think it would make decks like Zurgo and Kytheon completely unplayaeble if dropped T1
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I don't think anyone is taking it truly seriously. It's interesting to think about but a moot point regardless.
l was going to post this but decided it was not worth tp engaje. Nothing to be gained there...
meh. no worse than Titania. I don't see Selvala as oppressive, nor as consistent as Titania.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
lol at being faster than Rofl Elf.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Selvala is fun but nowhere near as consistent as Rofellos yet.
She will surely show up on some top 8 lists, and I really want to try to make one of the first lists to appear xD, but I don't think she will appear more then Animars, Jenaras and Titanias.
I'd imagine having a general that reads: 'have removal in your opening + 1, or die' isn't particularily helpful for the format
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
It also causes brand new problems for the format. Control adds more wraths to deal with aggro. Aggro doesn't have the tools to deal with it. It doesn't seem like aggro would benefit in the slightest with sideboards.
Said decks would benefit from Second Sunrise, Caller of the Claw, and Fresh Meat, if they were afraid of extra sweepers.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
The only commanders that have a good chance against wraths are Jenara since she puts pressure by herself and has soft counters to fight them and Titania since you get value when you recast her. Maybe that's why they are so popular right now.
20 life*. Fixt that for you.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
SB only allows the most opressive commanders to come back, which... is like taking a step back, sideboard against Zur or die doesn't look healthy also.
Karador Pattern Rector GWB
Anafenza the Foremost GWB
Meren of Clan Nel Toth (Stax)GB
[Team Stepfathers]: We beat you and you hate us
I'm not sure between 20 or 25 life per say but I truly believe that boros colours would become a lot more viable if the LP was lowered. I think the inferior card advantage of boros which ultimately leads to its absence in the format wouldn't hold it back as much if the games were shorter.
Edit: Wurmcoil Engine is a great example. The ammount of life it gains is generally death to aggro if it sticks. I believe this is why it see's as much play as it does in modern which is dominated by aggro while it see's very little in DC
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
If anyone's down to revisit the metagame and history of the format through the lens of an upper B-tier, sometimes lower A-tier commander, read the History section in my Captain Sisay primer: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-duel-commander/206248-captain-sisay-the-legendary-competitive-edh-primer
To be brief about it: Elves have ebbed and flowed in dominance and viability over the years as a result of particularly oppressive Commanders, and decks that seemed dominant and format-warping at various times were either adapted to or experienced bans if they were presenting problems in tournaments and/or discouraging newcomers from returning. There were even times where I had to scale back the dorks almost entirely because playing them was suicide in the meta. This might all be dismissed as anecdotal and limited, but in fairness, nearly 100% of my experience is playing on Cockatrice with a more diverse, global meta and my obsession with breaking apart and understanding top 8 decks. Speaking of...
I would argue that this format is brilliantly diverse right now and elves have not hindered that diversity, and we have global tournament data to back that up: http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=EDH
At present, 56% of top 8 decks from tournaments around the world don't have access to Green and/or don't use Elves in their more popular builds. Arguably, at least 1/3 of the top non-green decks aren't even what I'd describe as "Extinction" builds (they're not designed with murdering all creatures at all times in mind); rather, they're employing other strategies to achieve victory that don't require mass-elf genocide, like High Tide or Mono-White Aggro. I've watched Elf decks absolutely crumble against decks with even a tiny bit of tuning for mass creature removal or just crumble in on themselves from running out of gas and never getting their bomb in hand—or if I'm watching from the other end of the table, I've watched Elf players concede the moment I cast Linvala. ;P
Again, sorry, I'm trying to keep personal anecdotes to a minimum. Let's talk about "slowing down the format." From a purely practical standpoint, slowing down the format by removing all fast mana options would likely make paper tournaments impossible. Whether dork-based decks are winning the tournaments or not, their very existence steers deckbuilders towards faster, more efficient strategies and options. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe matchups like, say, Grand Arbiter mirror matches are a huge headache for tournament organizers and these games regularly have to be called for time. Getting in up to 3 matches within an hour (or 50 to 55 minutes) requires a certain speed of the format, one that is arguably made possible by dorks. It's for that same reason, as I understand it, that sideboards can never become a part of Duel Commander.
BIG-TIME EDIT:
I STAND VERY CORRECTED. Ban the hell out of new Selvela. Hi, Spas. ;P
Though I'm conflicted on whether or not consistent turn 3 or consistent turn 4 hard-casting Emrakul is really a big difference. Which is to say, I'm still for banning really problematic Commanders over banning mana dorks (and seriously, wtf is with giving them all THREE toughness??). Not even Rofellos had that kind of raw power... #ptsd
My Captain Sisay Duel Commander Primer
Duel Commander Mega-Thread
I play Surrak twin, and here is my sideboard
CONTROL
Red Elemental blast
pyroblast
Teferi
Counter flux
Double Negative(M.wander)
GY strategies
Tormods crypt
Loaming Shaman
Elf based
Cursed totem
Submerge
Dream Tides
Aggro
Chain lightning
Anger of the gods
Shattering Spree
Bribery
Breath of Darigaaz
I don't think sideboards would hurt as you still have to find the singleton card. You don't have to dilute you main deck with answers. 1st game you implement your strategy. 2nd and 3rd game you adjust to the matchup
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-duel-commander/755405-data-mining-teaser-aug-2016