I only made 1 small change since then, -1 Ancestral Visions, +1 Turnabout. Turnabout is sometimes an essential Merchant Scroll target when we go off. Visions is only good on turn 1.
Sorry for my late reply xD. Teferi is definitely more explosive because of all the ramp, but I feel it's a little more inconsistent too because some cards are only functional with Teferi on the table (rings, stasis, chain veil etc). Jace is more well-placed in this metagame because of its good control matchup.
Also, I think the lack of 'oomph!' you mentioned has to do with the lack of Palinchron in your list. My friend Ubeltaeter who also pilots a near-identical list to mine doesn't run Palinchron either because he is winmore, what do you think? I honestly don't think he is winmore, because he gives you a way to close out a game early if needed (possible on turn 4 with High Tide and -3 Jace on High Tide). Sometimes going for the infi combo kill with Blue Suns' Zenith is your only way out of a sticky situation that not even a big Temporal Fissure can fix. Not to mention in paper tournaments winning without Palinchron is extremely tedious. You run Palinchron in the Teferi list but not in the Jace list! And Jace can get the High Tide more consistently than Teferi because of his loot ability, his flashback and synergy with Intuition so there is no reason to not run Palinchron in Jace either =D
The Opt slot used to belong to Peek back when the deck was less control and more combo. Now it's Obsessive Search. Obsessive Search is better than all three because card advantage is more important than marginal filtering in a blue-heavy meta.
Erayo is more relevant now. It used to blank against dork heavy decks, but with the recent bans she will shine once more. Mental Note after Opt, was the weakest one-mana cantrip. The deck leans more towards control now, so there is less pressure to flip Jace early.
-1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
+1 Psionic Blast
Fallen out of love with Erayo...once again. Awkward play on turn 2, and against green decks a flipped Erayo is a Force Spike every turn.. My control matchup is already solid, and Psionic Blast helps shore up two weaknesses of the deck, planeswalkers, and the lack of permanent removal against Gaddock Teeg and other troublesome creatures.
-1 Into the Roil
+1 Oath of Jace
This is one of the few decks that can reliably get out a planeswalker by turn 3, so Oath of Jace is a nice curve option that gives us a powerful effect every upkeep. The loot trigger is more important than ever now, because of our madness, delve and flashback cards. It's almost the same as Compulsive Research, but the upkeep scry effect takes it over the top.
Into the roil might be the wrong card to cut, but for now I figured the Psionic Blast would more than make up for its loss.
So I kept a 7-land opening hand (Myriad Landscape + six Islands) on the draw against Marath and won. As if that wasn't enough, the next game I mulled to 5 with no lands, and this time I won on turn 4.
To be fair, I obviously had to get extremely lucky and my opponent had to also draw badly for me to win under such circumstances, but that's besides the point.
Not everyday do you win back-to-back games with an all land hand followed by a no land hand .
i think the right position which should be taken place is Thought Scour.
you have moved away Mental Note. Those two cards make some risks that our key cards would be put into gravyard(high tide etc).
Oath of Jace is more accurate than those two.Besides,they have the same function,which is better to say "change".
btw,do you think Center of the Sea is useless. Hardly had i finished combo with this card and Palinchron.in the early games,i always prefer a island rather than this one.in the late games,i always have better choices to spend 3 mana.when it comes a time walk,i always have less than 3 mana to draw additonal card.
the only time it is usefull is when we can't continue our story and are forced to have a topdeck...this sucks,and i think
Cephalid Coliseum is more helpful at that time.
@niaoyu11: I just cut Oath of Jace to put back in Mental Note, and cut Repeal to test Psionic Blast. If I can find a better slot I will try and put Repeal back in.
Oath of Jace wasn't as good as I'd had hoped it would be. You need to run at least Thought Scour especially with so many ways to get value out of the graveyard (mill Drownyard, Deep Analysis, Flash of Insight, strong things to flashback). Also great synergy with Brainstorm and Ponder if you don't have a shuffle effect as you can simply mill the top two away after drawing the best 1-3 cards from your topdeck. Mental Note and Thought Scour both make it easy for us to Treasure Cruise/Dig on turn 3 too. I made a mistake cutting Mental Note for anything in the first place. I think you have to keep both in.
Mikokoro is rarely bad for us. It is the last nonbasic land I would cut in this deck. As lebonco mentioned, it is great when topdecking, definitely better for us than the opponent since we are both the combo player and the control player. I remember one time a Kaalia player got out Iona, Shield of Emeria against me. With Mikokoro + Candelabra + Future Sight substituting for my cantrips, I found a Vedalken Shackles after two turns of digging and turned the game around.
@LeBonco22: Divert seems nice, I will try it out. I don't even run Swan Song or Flusterstorm, so I will have to try those out as well. This deck needs another 1 mana counter for those turn 1 discards, and Divert seems to be the winner here.
Flusterstorm IMO. Besides dealing with the t1 discards, it wins counter wars for 1 mana about 90% of the time. Also note Duress can't hit its owner, and Thoughtseize and Inquisition are far worse when you don't get to choose what's discarded. Divert is cute but Flusterstorm is better.
-Long term plans is a matter of personal preference. It's not essential to the deck, but it lets you aggressively pursue the combo plan since it is the only way to tutor Palinchron.
-Wash Out is bad, Evacuation is even worse and Engulf the Shore is probably better than both. Mass bounce spells are too conditional and usually read as a far more inferior Time Warp against creature decks, not to mention they aren't proactive like our Time Warp spells are. And honestly the only creature we want to remove is Gaddock Teeg, and none of those spells can deal with him. Psionic Blast and Reality Shift are better ways to deal with creatures.
-The latest list is in the first page of the thread. I always update it when I post changes here.
Also the new set is INSANE. I was without internet for a two weeks so I didn't get to see the spoilers until today. Pseudo-Remand/Unsummon will be a new blue staple. Already better than Repeal and possibly Into the Roil. The new draw-land is a second Mikokoro. Might be even better since the discard drawback is usually negligible with our Madness and Flashback spells and helps with Delve. I will cut Wasteland to try it.
So the decklists for DTC Rouen #7 are finally out. At first I was super perplexed by the Jace lists. Manuel's list is unlike any iteration of Jace I have seen so far, and Leo's Jace list runs Reweave and 3 creatures, none of those creatures being Emrakul. Didn't take me long to figure out that Manuel also ran Reweave and 9 creatures, and both lists run Ugin as their only other Planeswalker. Go figure.
@Frosty: Yes, but I've been testing new cards in anticipation of the new set (which gives a huge boost to midrange/ramp green) and the new metagame. I'll post my updates now and edit my list at the front so you can go by that
I obviously just stole this now from the Jace lists that topped the DTC this past weekend ;). Frankly I am ashamed that I had to find out about this so late since no-one has told me about this super-secret tech before. The commentators on the Twitch stream even mentioned the Reweave-into-Ugin combo several times, and Manuel's played this combo since March! Bah!
I was going to cut Tezzeret anyways, but the Reweave addition just made the cut a no-going-back thing. Tezzeret was nice for the 1-2 combo of Candelabra into Extraplanar Lens and the occasional silver bullet tutor for V. Shackles. We've also lost an alternate wincon in Tezz's -5 ulti, but that was only relevant if you'd gotten all your other wincons like Ugin and Palinchron exiled. It just means you have to be a bit smarter with your Intuition tutors and not grab all your wincons at once like I sometimes do. Don't grab all your wincons unless you're going to Spiral really soon, because grave hate is prevalent.
LTP is better now than when I originally tested it. It gets around Gaddock Teeg to find things like Psionic Blast or Palinchron. The Palinchron-High Tide combo gets around Teeg mostly, so you have to pursue that combo aggressively if somebody resolves a Teeg. The best way to play LTP would be end of turn LTP, loot with Jace, then untap and draw for turn and loot with Jace to get your tutored card. Mental Note and Thought Scour are pretty neat with LTP as well. Currently my most common tutor targets are Palinchron (by far) and Extraplanar Lens.
No reason to run Candelabra anymore without Tezzeret. Candel was a pretty dead card most of the times, occasionally cute with Thirst for Knowledge, Temple of the False Gods or a tapped Myriad Landscape, but it's not worth the slot unless you play Tezzeret or all-in combo High Tide. I can see this deck can branch out into the Tezzerator build (Candel + Tezz package) and non-Tezzerator build (no Candel + Tezz, potentially cut Vedalken Shackles), but I think Extraplanar will always be a staple.
Unsubstantiate is going to be a new blue staple which even hard control is going to want to play, because of it can handle Cavern of Souls and Boseiju for a turn at least, and it provides powerful versatility similar to Into the Roil's kicker and Cyclonic Rift's overload option. It's clearly much better in combo and tempo, like how Delay fits this deck but not Keranos or Child of Alara for example. I don't think it's fair to compare the card to Remand, because it can't be used as effectively early-game the same way Remand does. I see it being used more to bounce creatures in the early game and stall uncounterable effects in the mid-late game.
Talrand is winmore unless you're vs-ing Titania or a GWx deck, but even then you have to draw into Talrand, and Ugin is much better anyway. Talrand feels like he's roleplaying Ugin for a few turns until you have the mana to cast him. Talrand was good against green decks, but I now have Unsubstantiate and Submerge to fill in that gap, and unlike Talrand those cards can be tutored for and flashbacked. I think Talrand will finally be cut for good.
That being said, cutting Talrand eliminates yet another wincon if Ugin and Palinchron get exiled, so we have to be extra careful now to not overextend with the Intuition and only grab what we need, for fear of our graveyard being exiled before we can Spiral.
Also one less blank if we try and Reweave a creature into Palinchron!
Submerge is a free Memory Lapse vs green decks. There will be more Titania, Jenara and Karador in the near future I predict, so Submerge will be super powerful. Also in case you don't know already, Jace's -3 doesn't grant Flashback like Snapcaster Mage does, which means that you are allowed to cast Submerge from your graveyard for its alternate cost if you -3. The flashback from Snapcaster Mage specifically states paying the mana cost, so you can't cast Submerge for free if you give it flashback with Snapcaster.
edit: also I made some small updates in recent posts which I'd forgotten to add to the first post. if you've been following the first post, then you need to add in these changes as well.
-1 Repeal
-1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
+1 Mental Note
+1 Psionic Blast
Hey, important note. Reweave is lethal w/high tide if you hit twelve mana, as if you flip snap you can cast again to palinchron. How good is the reweave ugin combo? is it worth not running jtms and teferi?
Yeah I have not been able to make heads or tails of the winning Jace list. But I am quite intrigued. Hopefully we can see it in action when the youtube videos are posted.
No interest in running curious homunculi (sic)? Seemed like a nice fit into the deck, but could potentially be more awkward than it appears on the surface. Need to get me one and try it out.
Jace TMS never fit into the deck well, because you always wanted the option of casting Jace VP. None of the top-placing Jace lists run Mind Sculptor either. Teferi is great, but if I had to choose between Teferi or getting out Ugin/Palinchron with 6 mana, I would always pick the latter option.
Yes Frosty you can definitely Reweave into Palinchron if Snapcaster is not in the library, and I also made a note that cutting Talrand helps with this plan too. Snapcaster is too good to cut I think. I'm sure there would be scenarios where I wouldn't mind Reweaving into Snapcaster to flashback something good.
I haven't tested Homunculus yet because I don't think it's that good. I see it as a Sapphire Medallion that takes one turn to become active.
It has some advantages though; it doesn't die to an Ugin board wipe, it's a decent blocker, and when it flips during the following upkeep you can also float one colorless mana during your upkeep. As far as two drop creatures go I don't even run Thing in the Ice or Erayo, Soratami Ascendant anymore, so it would have to be better than those two to stay in the deck.
@kriggy: As Mars said it runs claws, furnace and relic of prog so there are usually a lot more lands exiled by the time sower resolves. If you resolve any of the 3 one mana grave exilers early you can usually get an extra 3 or more lands from their exile in addition to the top 4 from sower.
Also I've been testing Manuel's winning list a bit on Cockaktrice (~20 games). My initial impression was that the deck was more aggressive and less durdly and could go aggro mode because of Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer, which can incidentally be cast early with Eye of Ugin + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Eldrazi Temple. But this doesn't happen as often as you want it to, especially with how fragile the mana base is (40% colorless lands, so it's actually a U/c deck not a monoU deck). Also Eye + Urborg don't let you cast the aforementioned Eldrazi because the recent rule change means that Urborg'ed lands now add black instead of colorless. This means neither Eye nor Urborg provide the colorless mana required in the Eldrazi's mana cost.
After I played more games I realised the deck was a late game turbo-fog control deck with a wide variety of tools to combat a specific metagame and to shore up the early game. Jace isn't as integral to this deck as it is to the HT version, which is both good and bad. The good thing is that you don't need to rely on Jace as much if he keeps getting killed, because he is mostly there to get value from Time Warps. If Jace doesn't get to stick around you can kill them with Eldrazi instead. The bad thing is that his -3 is alot weaker because the best thing to get is usually Time Warp. He has less options with the -3, and less synergy with Intuition and Merchant Scroll, and the deck overall. The deck doesn't run Spiral or HT so Scroll usually finds Reweave, which is sad.
Overall I feel that the deck is built to play the long game and outlast the opponent with Jace's inbuilt card advantage until it can ramp enough to cast the Eldrazi. But the major weakness of this deck compared to the HT version is that there is no proactive combo plan, so you cannot outrace combo decks and you are weaker to uncounterable spells, because you can only hope and wait. At least against Cavern and Boseiju, High Tide can just ignore the opponent's strategy and focus on its own combo, and decide when it wants to combo off if it's under too much pressure. Also another important point is that the deck doesn't goldfish so if you want to play a grindy controllish game rather than ********, you should play this version. It's more fun for the opponent too :D.
P.S I also find some card choices questionable. Stifle and Trickbind are really bad, but they're only in because of Parallax Tide. Parallax is also quite bad but has a cute interaction with Oblivion Sower at least. Also Think Twice should seriously be Flash of Insight. Think Twice sucks ass and Flash is 100x better. It's the reverse Think Twice that turns into an uber-Impulse.
Thanks
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Also, I think the lack of 'oomph!' you mentioned has to do with the lack of Palinchron in your list. My friend Ubeltaeter who also pilots a near-identical list to mine doesn't run Palinchron either because he is winmore, what do you think? I honestly don't think he is winmore, because he gives you a way to close out a game early if needed (possible on turn 4 with High Tide and -3 Jace on High Tide). Sometimes going for the infi combo kill with Blue Suns' Zenith is your only way out of a sticky situation that not even a big Temporal Fissure can fix. Not to mention in paper tournaments winning without Palinchron is extremely tedious. You run Palinchron in the Teferi list but not in the Jace list! And Jace can get the High Tide more consistently than Teferi because of his loot ability, his flashback and synergy with Intuition so there is no reason to not run Palinchron in Jace either =D
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
-1 Opt
+1 Obsessive Search
The Opt slot used to belong to Peek back when the deck was less control and more combo. Now it's Obsessive Search. Obsessive Search is better than all three because card advantage is more important than marginal filtering in a blue-heavy meta.
-1 Mental Note
+1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
Erayo is more relevant now. It used to blank against dork heavy decks, but with the recent bans she will shine once more. Mental Note after Opt, was the weakest one-mana cantrip. The deck leans more towards control now, so there is less pressure to flip Jace early.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
+1 Psionic Blast
Fallen out of love with Erayo...once again. Awkward play on turn 2, and against green decks a flipped Erayo is a Force Spike every turn.. My control matchup is already solid, and Psionic Blast helps shore up two weaknesses of the deck, planeswalkers, and the lack of permanent removal against Gaddock Teeg and other troublesome creatures.
-1 Into the Roil
+1 Oath of Jace
This is one of the few decks that can reliably get out a planeswalker by turn 3, so Oath of Jace is a nice curve option that gives us a powerful effect every upkeep. The loot trigger is more important than ever now, because of our madness, delve and flashback cards. It's almost the same as Compulsive Research, but the upkeep scry effect takes it over the top.
Into the roil might be the wrong card to cut, but for now I figured the Psionic Blast would more than make up for its loss.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
edit: Maybe I'll cut Repeal then? Repeal is only better than ItR against dorks and Candelabra. It is also dead vs Gaddock
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Into the Roil is far better than Repeal in my opinion.
To be fair, I obviously had to get extremely lucky and my opponent had to also draw badly for me to win under such circumstances, but that's besides the point.
Not everyday do you win back-to-back games with an all land hand followed by a no land hand .
game 1
game 2
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
you have moved away Mental Note. Those two cards make some risks that our key cards would be put into gravyard(high tide etc).
Oath of Jace is more accurate than those two.Besides,they have the same function,which is better to say "change".
btw,do you think Center of the Sea is useless. Hardly had i finished combo with this card and Palinchron.in the early games,i always prefer a island rather than this one.in the late games,i always have better choices to spend 3 mana.when it comes a time walk,i always have less than 3 mana to draw additonal card.
the only time it is usefull is when we can't continue our story and are forced to have a topdeck...this sucks,and i think
Cephalid Coliseum is more helpful at that time.
Oath of Jace wasn't as good as I'd had hoped it would be. You need to run at least Thought Scour especially with so many ways to get value out of the graveyard (mill Drownyard, Deep Analysis, Flash of Insight, strong things to flashback). Also great synergy with Brainstorm and Ponder if you don't have a shuffle effect as you can simply mill the top two away after drawing the best 1-3 cards from your topdeck. Mental Note and Thought Scour both make it easy for us to Treasure Cruise/Dig on turn 3 too. I made a mistake cutting Mental Note for anything in the first place. I think you have to keep both in.
Mikokoro is rarely bad for us. It is the last nonbasic land I would cut in this deck. As lebonco mentioned, it is great when topdecking, definitely better for us than the opponent since we are both the combo player and the control player. I remember one time a Kaalia player got out Iona, Shield of Emeria against me. With Mikokoro + Candelabra + Future Sight substituting for my cantrips, I found a Vedalken Shackles after two turns of digging and turned the game around.
@LeBonco22: Divert seems nice, I will try it out. I don't even run Swan Song or Flusterstorm, so I will have to try those out as well. This deck needs another 1 mana counter for those turn 1 discards, and Divert seems to be the winner here.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
-Wash Out is bad, Evacuation is even worse and Engulf the Shore is probably better than both. Mass bounce spells are too conditional and usually read as a far more inferior Time Warp against creature decks, not to mention they aren't proactive like our Time Warp spells are. And honestly the only creature we want to remove is Gaddock Teeg, and none of those spells can deal with him. Psionic Blast and Reality Shift are better ways to deal with creatures.
-The latest list is in the first page of the thread. I always update it when I post changes here.
Also the new set is INSANE. I was without internet for a two weeks so I didn't get to see the spoilers until today. Pseudo-Remand/Unsummon will be a new blue staple. Already better than Repeal and possibly Into the Roil. The new draw-land is a second Mikokoro. Might be even better since the discard drawback is usually negligible with our Madness and Flashback spells and helps with Delve. I will cut Wasteland to try it.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
@Frosty: Yes, but I've been testing new cards in anticipation of the new set (which gives a huge boost to midrange/ramp green) and the new metagame. I'll post my updates now and edit my list at the front so you can go by that
-1 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
+1 Reweave
I obviously just stole this now from the Jace lists that topped the DTC this past weekend ;). Frankly I am ashamed that I had to find out about this so late since no-one has told me about this super-secret tech before. The commentators on the Twitch stream even mentioned the Reweave-into-Ugin combo several times, and Manuel's played this combo since March! Bah!
-1 Tezzeret the Seeker
+1 Long-Term Plans
I was going to cut Tezzeret anyways, but the Reweave addition just made the cut a no-going-back thing. Tezzeret was nice for the 1-2 combo of Candelabra into Extraplanar Lens and the occasional silver bullet tutor for V. Shackles. We've also lost an alternate wincon in Tezz's -5 ulti, but that was only relevant if you'd gotten all your other wincons like Ugin and Palinchron exiled. It just means you have to be a bit smarter with your Intuition tutors and not grab all your wincons at once like I sometimes do. Don't grab all your wincons unless you're going to Spiral really soon, because grave hate is prevalent.
LTP is better now than when I originally tested it. It gets around Gaddock Teeg to find things like Psionic Blast or Palinchron. The Palinchron-High Tide combo gets around Teeg mostly, so you have to pursue that combo aggressively if somebody resolves a Teeg. The best way to play LTP would be end of turn LTP, loot with Jace, then untap and draw for turn and loot with Jace to get your tutored card. Mental Note and Thought Scour are pretty neat with LTP as well. Currently my most common tutor targets are Palinchron (by far) and Extraplanar Lens.
-1 Candelabra of Tawnos
+1 Unsubstantiate
No reason to run Candelabra anymore without Tezzeret. Candel was a pretty dead card most of the times, occasionally cute with Thirst for Knowledge, Temple of the False Gods or a tapped Myriad Landscape, but it's not worth the slot unless you play Tezzeret or all-in combo High Tide. I can see this deck can branch out into the Tezzerator build (Candel + Tezz package) and non-Tezzerator build (no Candel + Tezz, potentially cut Vedalken Shackles), but I think Extraplanar will always be a staple.
Unsubstantiate is going to be a new blue staple which even hard control is going to want to play, because of it can handle Cavern of Souls and Boseiju for a turn at least, and it provides powerful versatility similar to Into the Roil's kicker and Cyclonic Rift's overload option. It's clearly much better in combo and tempo, like how Delay fits this deck but not Keranos or Child of Alara for example. I don't think it's fair to compare the card to Remand, because it can't be used as effectively early-game the same way Remand does. I see it being used more to bounce creatures in the early game and stall uncounterable effects in the mid-late game.
-1 Talrand, Sky Summoner
+1 Submerge
Talrand is winmore unless you're vs-ing Titania or a GWx deck, but even then you have to draw into Talrand, and Ugin is much better anyway. Talrand feels like he's roleplaying Ugin for a few turns until you have the mana to cast him. Talrand was good against green decks, but I now have Unsubstantiate and Submerge to fill in that gap, and unlike Talrand those cards can be tutored for and flashbacked. I think Talrand will finally be cut for good.
That being said, cutting Talrand eliminates yet another wincon if Ugin and Palinchron get exiled, so we have to be extra careful now to not overextend with the Intuition and only grab what we need, for fear of our graveyard being exiled before we can Spiral.
Also one less blank if we try and Reweave a creature into Palinchron!
Submerge is a free Memory Lapse vs green decks. There will be more Titania, Jenara and Karador in the near future I predict, so Submerge will be super powerful. Also in case you don't know already, Jace's -3 doesn't grant Flashback like Snapcaster Mage does, which means that you are allowed to cast Submerge from your graveyard for its alternate cost if you -3. The flashback from Snapcaster Mage specifically states paying the mana cost, so you can't cast Submerge for free if you give it flashback with Snapcaster.
edit: also I made some small updates in recent posts which I'd forgotten to add to the first post. if you've been following the first post, then you need to add in these changes as well.
-1 Repeal
-1 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant
+1 Mental Note
+1 Psionic Blast
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
No interest in running curious homunculi (sic)? Seemed like a nice fit into the deck, but could potentially be more awkward than it appears on the surface. Need to get me one and try it out.
Yes Frosty you can definitely Reweave into Palinchron if Snapcaster is not in the library, and I also made a note that cutting Talrand helps with this plan too. Snapcaster is too good to cut I think. I'm sure there would be scenarios where I wouldn't mind Reweaving into Snapcaster to flashback something good.
I haven't tested Homunculus yet because I don't think it's that good. I see it as a Sapphire Medallion that takes one turn to become active.
It has some advantages though; it doesn't die to an Ugin board wipe, it's a decent blocker, and when it flips during the following upkeep you can also float one colorless mana during your upkeep. As far as two drop creatures go I don't even run Thing in the Ice or Erayo, Soratami Ascendant anymore, so it would have to be better than those two to stay in the deck.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Also I've been testing Manuel's winning list a bit on Cockaktrice (~20 games). My initial impression was that the deck was more aggressive and less durdly and could go aggro mode because of Reality Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer, which can incidentally be cast early with Eye of Ugin + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Eldrazi Temple. But this doesn't happen as often as you want it to, especially with how fragile the mana base is (40% colorless lands, so it's actually a U/c deck not a monoU deck). Also Eye + Urborg don't let you cast the aforementioned Eldrazi because the recent rule change means that Urborg'ed lands now add black instead of colorless. This means neither Eye nor Urborg provide the colorless mana required in the Eldrazi's mana cost.
After I played more games I realised the deck was a late game turbo-fog control deck with a wide variety of tools to combat a specific metagame and to shore up the early game. Jace isn't as integral to this deck as it is to the HT version, which is both good and bad. The good thing is that you don't need to rely on Jace as much if he keeps getting killed, because he is mostly there to get value from Time Warps. If Jace doesn't get to stick around you can kill them with Eldrazi instead. The bad thing is that his -3 is alot weaker because the best thing to get is usually Time Warp. He has less options with the -3, and less synergy with Intuition and Merchant Scroll, and the deck overall. The deck doesn't run Spiral or HT so Scroll usually finds Reweave, which is sad.
Overall I feel that the deck is built to play the long game and outlast the opponent with Jace's inbuilt card advantage until it can ramp enough to cast the Eldrazi. But the major weakness of this deck compared to the HT version is that there is no proactive combo plan, so you cannot outrace combo decks and you are weaker to uncounterable spells, because you can only hope and wait. At least against Cavern and Boseiju, High Tide can just ignore the opponent's strategy and focus on its own combo, and decide when it wants to combo off if it's under too much pressure. Also another important point is that the deck doesn't goldfish so if you want to play a grindy controllish game rather than ********, you should play this version. It's more fun for the opponent too :D.
P.S I also find some card choices questionable. Stifle and Trickbind are really bad, but they're only in because of Parallax Tide. Parallax is also quite bad but has a cute interaction with Oblivion Sower at least. Also Think Twice should seriously be Flash of Insight. Think Twice sucks ass and Flash is 100x better. It's the reverse Think Twice that turns into an uber-Impulse.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)