This is an infinite combo deck in a heavy control shell which uses the free flashback ability of Jace's -3 to gain massive CA in all stages of the game, and to recur key combo cards that let us go infinite or dominate the board.
The key enabler in the deck is High Tide, which when combined with Jace's -3, allows for the extremely powerful double High Tide interaction usually only seen in Legacy & Vintage because of redundancy. We also have Extraplanar Lens as a 2nd High Tide and although it is much weaker, it is great as a hard control card because it persists beyond the the turn it is cast, unlike High Tide, and can be fetched with Tezzeret the Seeker. Tezzeret can then chain into Candelabra of Tawnos the next turn with his -1.
The next combo enabler is Palinchron, which we try to combo with High Tide/Extraplanar and 6 Islands to net infinite blue mana and storm. It can also combo with Phantasmal Image and 7 lands, or double High Tide and 4 Islands. After generating infinite mana, we win with a lethal Blue Suns' Zenith targetting the opponent. Zenith is easily tutorable through Merchant Scroll, which also finds High Tide. (Alternatively a Mind's Desire when we have the infinite mana and storm can also allow us to cast BSZ from exile for 0 to shuffle it back in, draw it with any of our exiled cantrips, and cast again with infinite mana targetting the opponent.)
Last but not least is Temporal Fissure, the only Storm card of the deck, and the true wincon of the deck. It allows us to completely upend the board in our favour and is essentially a one-sided Upheaval. Working towards a big Temporal Fissure kill is much more consistent and reliable than the Palinchron/Blue Sun's combo, the latter which requires a third combo card (Blue Suns' Zenith) and a certain amount of lands in play to go infinite.
How to play Jace and when to flip him
Most of the time we want to slam Jace down as fast as possible, either on turn 2 but ideally on turn 1 and on the play. This lets us dig sooner for our key cards and lets us flip him earlier so we can get as much use out of his -3 as possible.
Against aggro, we want Jace to flip ASAP so we can establish board control with his +1. Their only real way of interacting with us is to kill Jace, which is much harder when he is flipped and gaining 3 life a turn. They also have much less ways of interacting with us apart from killing Jace so we can rest assured when we go straight for the combo.
Against combo, we want to be flashbacking cantrips to dig for our combo, or flashbacking combo cards to race them for the win.
Control is a different story because we can afford to take our time and focus on card quality rather than card advantage. We should immediately -3 a one-mana cantrip and start beating them in the card advantage race. We aren't in any pressure to flip Jace early as each extra turn we get to loot with creature Jace gives us better card quality. With all that said and done, it is almost always correct to slam Jace down on turn 2 even if we are on the draw and/or are anticipating a counterspell or removal. We can risk tapping out on turns 1 to 3 against control anyway since there aren't that many cards that we are afraid of having them resolved early (that we can bounce later). What more, we've traded a card in our command zone for a counterspell or removal spell in their hand! Talk about value!
Wincons
The instant-win condition is to deck out the opponent with a Blue Sun's Zenith powered by the mana from our interaction of Palinchron and High Tide. Sometimes we can't get all these cards so we have to rely on alternatives.
The first alternative would be a Temporal Fissure gameplan, where we rack up enough storm for a one-sided Upheaval. This puts them so far back that we can dominate the board with Talrand, the Sky Summoner, Future Sight, or Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, or buy us enough turns to find aforementioned win conditions and close the game. Jace, the Mind Sculptor is also a consideration in this strategy, but I prefer Teferi PW, because he doesn't prevent me from flipping Baby Jace.
The second one is Ugin locking down the board with the -X, and on subsequent turns you +2 on the face after you've controlled the board.
The third alternative wincon is aggroing the opponent to death with either flying 2/2's from Talrand, stolen creatures, or Tezzeret -5. I particularly like Talrand as an alternative wincon since the style of the deck naturally supports him, and he is not dependent on any of our key cards if they're exiled or unavailable. Our array of Time Warps fit perfectly with Talrand. Anyone who's played Talrand in DC before will know how powerful Time Warps are in such a deck.
Some advanced plays and tips
1. When comboing, save your bounce spells for your Snapcaster Mage and Candelabra of Tawnos! Repeal on Candelabra gives you extra mana and 2 extra storm. Snapcaster Mage can target Snap in your graveyard to bounce the Snapcaster back so you can recast it and target something else. With an active High Tide effect it costs you no extra mana and nets you 2 extra storm.
2. Treat Jace as a graveyard resource for Delve spells or Flash of Insight if he gets countered or removed. For example if Jace is on 3 loyalty counters and I -3 giving flashback to my Dig Through Time, I would then put Jace in the graveyard rather than in the command zone. Only after he gets exiled from the Delve cost do I choose to move him to the command zone.
3. Delving is required skill in this deck, much like how to chain our dig spells and cantrips in tandem with shuffle effects. Keeping in mind that we might have to resolve a Time Spiral it's obvious we want to minimise our chances of drawing 7 Islands. So when delving we always start with the lands, followed by the counterspells, then the cantrips and lastly and only if we are forced to, our combo cards such as Frantic Search, Intuition, Merchant Scroll, Temporal Fissure, Timetwister etc.
4. I usually loot mainphase with Jace, but sometimes I like to keep him untapped so I can draw out removal from the opponent. For example I have one card in my grave and a Mental Note in hand, and my opponent plays a Gilded Drake targetting my creature Jace. I will then Mental Note to get my graveyard to 4 cards and loot in response to the Gilded drake trigger to flip him and fizzle it. On that note if someone steals your Jace and flips him he will returned flipped under your control. Just don't tell them until after they've flip him
5. You can get infinite mana/storm with 4 islands and Palinchron if you can High Tide twice. For example with Jace, Telepath Unbound on 5 counters, 4 untapped islands, Palinchron in hand and High Tide in hand, tap an island to cast High Tide, give High Tide flashback with Jace's -3, tap the second island to cast the High Tide again. You have 1 blue floating in pool and your remaining 2 islands tap for 3 each, giving you just enough mana to cast Palinchron. Your islands tap for 12 mana in total, which is exactly the same as having 6 islands and 1 active High Tide effect.
6. You don't always have to go infinite to win with this deck. Sometimes a storm count of 6 or 7 is enough to force a concession, depending on the game state (oh yeah our only storm card here is Temporal Fissure ^^). When that happens every count of storm matters. We can Remand or our own spells in a pinch or Repeal our own Snapcasters and Mox Diamond.
7. Intuition is the best card in the deck after High Tide. If played right, you will almost always get a "GG" from the other player or a "zzzzzzz". A typical nobrainer pile I use consists of High Tide, Palinchron and Time Spiral. A knowledgeable opponent will never let you have the Palinchron anyway, since it can't be recurred with Jace, so in effect the pile really just comes down to High Tide and Time Spiral. The Palinchron is there for noobs. Otherwise you can get Temporal Fissure, Timetwister, Flash of Insight, or Deep Analysis as the 3rd card, depending on whether Jace is flipped or not.
Time Spiral is the correct card for the opponent to let us keep since it gets exiled regardless of whether we -3 it or not. High Tide going to the grave forces us to exile it from the flashback and we only get to cast it once.
8. In grindy matchups, Intuition should get High Tide, Flash of Insight and Deep Analysis instead of High Tide, Time Spiral, Flash/Deep Anal/Palinchron etc. So the second slot, which would normally be Time Spiral instead becomes a flashback card, and so does the third slot.
9. Jace's -3 means that if the targeted spell goes to a different zone, for example from Memory Lapse or Remand then it doesn't exile because it never goes to the graveyard. -3 on High Tide and Remanding it back to your hand is a valid play.
10. If you have four cards in grave, and loot a Madness spell with Jace, he doesn't flip. This is because the Madness ability exiles the card during resolution, so when Jace's loot ability resolves it still only counts four cards in your graveyard, because the discarded Madness card is on the stack. Very useful in control mirrors where you don't want to flip Jace and would rather keep looting first.
11. There are ways to use Mental Note and Thought Scour other than as insta-flips or cantrips. With Sensei's Divining TopBrainstorm/Ponder and Jace's -3, it can potentially be a way to dig deep while getting the best cards of your topdeck. Activate Top's 1 ability, then in response activate the T ability to draw and move Top. The first ability resolves so you can move Top to the 3rd position and Thought Scour the top two cards away and redraw Top. Now you can keep digging with Top while still having the option of selecting the best card out of your top 3.
I don't understand why you created a new topic instead of discussing the deck in the already existing topic...
That said, I really think there are things in your list that shouldn't be there. I mean, you don't play Candelabra, and that's a big mistake. Tezzeret is really good in the deck, way better than Tamiyo. You play Memory Jar, but really Windfall seems way better (it's "Jaceable", costs less mana, fills your graveyard, etc).
Although I understand Talrand (I will try him), I disagree of your take on relying on Time Walks instead of the Brain Freeze/Sphinx's Tutelage plan. I'll test it, though, but Freeze seems way faster. I also don't understand the Phantasmal Image... Specially when you don't play Cloud of Faeries. Any reason?
Also, you seem to be running 5 mana sources more than me. Ever feel you're flooded? (Mikokoro, Petal and 3 Islands). I don't like Petal because we need steady mana sources, but I like the idea behind Mikokoro and will test it!
ps: but, you know, just go to the topic that already existed.
Phantasmal Image goes infinite with Palinchron on board at 6 lands for storm, and 7 for mana.
I see. I still think the Palinchron storm wincon is a little convoluted for me, though. It's very vulnerable and I wouldn't dedicate more than 1 slot (Palinchron itself) to it.
Ok I was being a d1ck before. Your lists and playstyle are way too different to mine so I didn't bother post my own take on the deck, because I know you won't make much of my card choices. Our decks both feature High Tide, but since they play differently they may as well be separate strategies contained in their own threads.
I also I believe I have more to offer in terms of alternative card choices, strategy and matchup advice so I didn't post a reply on the other Jace thread, because I felt it needed its own space. Trust me, this thread was a long time coming and I have a lot more ideas to follow.
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@fsecco:
You're mostly right about Phantasmal Image being a bad card. It is a dead card unless I'm playing against Narset or Prime Time. Outside of that it only combos with Palinchron. I will slot it out for Erayo.
I'm not running Cloud of Faeries for the same reason I'm not running Candelabra, which is 100x better than Cloud. Cloud of Faeries only works when you have High Tide/Extraplanar out, and when you do it's medicore. You're wasting a card for 1 storm and 2 bonus mana, which can only be justified if you have Time Spiral in hand. I might run Candelabra, but right now I feel it's a bit worse than Turnabout. Frantic Search>Turnabout>Snap>Candelabra of Tawnos>Reset>Cloud of Faeries. I've gone Turnabout with 5 lands before to cast Time Spiral; Candelabra doesn't let me do that.
Also Brain Freeze is absolute ***** unless you have infinite storm. 16-20 storm isn't enough to kill someone with a Freeze in this format. Sphinx's Tutelage is kind of better than Freeze, but if you're not killing the opponent in the next two turns, and I estimate you need at least 30 triggers against a monocolour deck, you're literally not doing anything but fueling their graveyard.
Now I feel kind of stupid for not running Windfall, since I think it's potentially much better than Timetwister in the early game. A turn 3 Twister doesn't get you to flip Jace and also resets your graveyard. But I don't think Windfall is necessarily better than Memory Jar; it's alot closer to Timetwister than Jar. Windfall doesn't do much in the mid to late game when you're both sitting on 2-3 cards each. Jar is better than Windfall and Twister in the late game because the opponent's new hand only lasts until the end of your turn, which is important if you know you can't win on the same turn. Memory Jar is usually activated the turn after it's resolved, so you're not paying an extra 3 like you do for Windfall the turn you go off. But I think the 3 mana is negligible if you're going off anyway. Windfall can be recurred with Jace which is super important. Overall Windfall is the best suggestion so far, so props for that.
I am running 38 lands because I don't want to ever miss a land drop until around turn 6. Honestly I think I could even go up to 40 lands. Remember this isn't Legacy High Tide where you only need 3-4 lands to go off because you run 4 copies of High Tide. With only one effective copy of High Tide its best to combo off with 6 Islands and Palinchron.
I will run Tezzeret if I ever decide to run Candelabra (-3 in Extraplanar then -1 into Candelabra). I would've played him if I could instantly grab Memory Jar.
Petal is good because it provides storm and free mana. Also getting a turn 1 Jace is very powerful.
I should also note that Mikokoro combos with Palin+High Tide to draw your whole deck if you're out of gas or lack the wincon in hand. You will use Mikokoro until you find Blue Sun's Zenith/Mind's Desire. You won't get infinite mana from Mikokoro, 5 Islands, High Tide and Palinchron though unfortunately, only infinite storm.
This deck wants to get to 6 lands ASAP. I think of Time Warp as a free Rampant Growth that gets cast on turn 5. I run just one nonbasic land for obvious reasons, and Myriad Landscape is not a nonbasic land. It will turn into 2 Islands at some point, so it's basically a Time Warp.
So, I understand you wanting your own topic, but my list and your list are only 24 cards away from each other. We have 76 cards in common (counting basic lands and the commander), so I really think they're the same deck and I'll treat them as that for the time being.
What I like about Cloud of Faeries is that it counts to flip Erayo and it provides an early blocker to protect Jace. Funny how I don't like Turnabout... I don't know why, but I never want that card in my hand. Reset seems better to me, but even that I don't like. I love Candelabra because if can be fetched by Tezz and it's reusable. It's awesome with Extrapanar Lens and if you are ever playing Temporal Fissure in a High Tide turn you can bounce it back and generate a ton more mana. You can also untap it with Tezz, making it insane.
About Brain Freeze, I disagree completely, because this is a Jace deck. It is very different from Legacy indeed, but here I have, many times, played Brain Freeze 2 times in the same turn with the -3 from Jace, making that 16-20 storm lethal. This is a real play. Tutelage helps that plan a lot. One of the best things about Tutelage is that you can play your Timetwister/Time Spiral and it will mill the opponent for at least 14 cards immediately, so you don't have to start from scratch.
My problem with Memory Jar is that you will normally play it to activate it next turn, since it costs 5. I mean, if we're playing 5cc Draw7s, why not Time Reversal? The thing is I don't think we need that many Draw7s, and I feel Windfall is better than Jar, specially because you can use a 20-card hand to win by making your opponent draw 20 cards. If Tezz had 5 loyalty counters on him, that discussion would be very different hehe
About Lotus Petal, yeah Jace turn 1 is great, but I wouldn't want to do it with Petal. With the moxen we lose cards in hand but they're constant mana. I always felt Petal was lacking when I used it to fuel a turn 1 Jace. Maybe I'm wrong, but for now I'm playing Mikokoro instead of it (I LOVE Mikokoro, it's a nice tech I didn't think for this deck!)
About the 3 extra lands, that's play style I guess. I'm playing Opt, Peek and Careful Study over 3 lands and I feel fine about it.
I understand the Time Walks, but I feel they only work great with Talrand. I'm playing Talrand now too, because he's awesome, and there are a lot of times where shipping the turn and waiting to attack next turn is ok, specially if you managed to resolve Temporal Fissure. I feel Fissure is the real wincon in this deck, actually. The rest is just a matter of choosing a way to win.
Also, I forgot to ask about Muddle the Mixture. I failed to find anything really relevant that if fetches. What am I missing? I mean, Dizzy Spell is a must, but muddle fetches... Snapcaster and Medallion? And Counterspell and Into the Roil?
However, why run Tamiyo, the Moon Sage? She doesn't accelerate you, only draws you value if your opponent is going whole ham on the aggro plan, and only taps down one thing. Just not enough convincing there for me..other than that, our lists are pretty similar man.
Edit: On the whole, Talrand, Sky Summoner also seems out of place as well. Only generating value assuming you get to untap with him seems unlikely. Even with the control shell behind it, seems almost reaching too far. But heck, that's just me.
Yep, I even stated so in the OP :). Muddle usually only fetches Merchant Scroll when I'm sitting on infinite storm/mana with nothing else in hand. Then I can sink it into Muddle and grab Merchant Scroll or Snapcaster, which lets me win the game. Besides that, it's also a counter (albeit a really *****ty one) that can occasionally grab Phantasmal Image or Cyclonic Rift.
@DrDiabetes: Tamiyo has dug me out of bad situations before against aggro. Keeping a Gaea's Cradle or Shrine of Burning Rage tapped down is pretty crucial... I'm testing out Tezzeret instead now with the Candelabra package and I'll let you know how it goes.
I dunno about our lists being similar.. 24 cards is alot.
@fsecco: I'm going to run both Windfall and Jar for now. I'm testing out Tezzeret so I'm definitely keeping Jar.
Lol I don't even have to do anything to flip Erayo. I've gone like Preordain on turn 5, found Erayo, cast Erayo, -2 Preordain and cast another cantrip to trigger her. Cloud of Faeries is too inconsistent and weak in this deck, let alone this format (barring Imperial Animar).
And yes I agree that Temporal Fissure is the real wincon, even though it doesn't technically win you the game straightaway. Just like Upheaval in Tasigur, it's overwhelming card and board advantage.
How do you like the control shell vs straight cantrips the deck? I've just been thinking of adding more of a control aspect to it, because at the last tournament I took place in, I lost a few matches I just shouldn't have. Although sometimes digging super deep is sometimes better. And no Cephalid Coliseum?
Maybe you're right about Cloud of Faeries. But the body has helped me protect Jace a few relevant times now. I like having a lot of cantrips because they make you speed through the deck faster (you don't need to counter a lot of stuff they play) and they work better with draw7s in a High Tide turn. I've fizzled sometimes due to a Draw7 drawing me too many counters.
Cephalid Coliseum seems bad. It's a wasteland target that isn't an island and works bad with Twister and Spiral. I tested it a little bit but I currently find Mikokoro better.
Yeah I originally had Coliseum and it wasn't good. One less island that doesn't let you combo with High Tide.
I don't like cantrips that don't draw you straightaway like Portent. Maybe Peek and Opt but that's about it. Impulse I didn't really like because it costs 2 mana and I only want to play Jace on t2. Think Twice is an exception because of the flashback curving well with Jace's loot. Right now insisting at the bare minimum counters I feel I should have so I don't know how to make room for extra cantrips. And don't make me cut Islands lol.
Diminishing Returns is bad on a deck with no redundancy. Exile your 1 Time Spiral, High Tide, Temporal Fissure, Palinchron, etc, and you're probably in bad shape.
Impulse is awesome, because this deck wants to dig deep. You don't need to play it turn 2, and it may cost 1 due to Sapphire Medallion at some point. I wouldn't ever cut it, and would also add Anticipate as a worse duplicate.
It has done extremely well so far, much better than my previous builds and the build I used in the online tournament. I cut Personal Tutor, Wash Out, Teferi PW, Lotus Petal, Talrand, Erayo, Pact, MisD, and added more hard control cards like Jace TMS, Complicate, Exclude, Ugin, Treachery. It is closer to the Jace lists on mtgtop8 that are heavy control rather than combo.
I am finally running Future Sight, Deep Analysis, Impulse. @fsecco Yeah you're right about Impulse being a staple in this deck. I used to think it was a conflicting T2 play with Jace VP but recently I have started to cast Jace VP less frequently on T2 due to the changing nature of this deck towards more permission in the early turns. In matchups like Animar or Yisan you are better often holding a counter instead of tapping out for Jace. Impulse now gives me a good EOT spell if I don't play the counter, and it is also great in the later stages of the game. That said, I probably should have played Impulse in my old iterations of the deck :P. It's not useless like Think Twice that's for sure!
Deep Analysis is another all-star card I neglected to include before. One of my big problems with control mirrors was running out of gas once they had finished countering all my spells. Deep Analysis with active loot is automatic +2 CA which is HUGE.
Now with Intuition I have the pile of High Tide, Flash of Insight, Deep Analysis if I anticipate a grindy game.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor went back in since the deck doesn't need to rely on Jace VP as it did before.
Also updated the main post by cleaning up the outdated cards and strategies, and added a bunch of tips and tricks.
Testing Pieces of the Puzzle over Compulsive Research. Can't say it's better or worse, but it feels more like a sorcery speed Fact or Fiction for 3 mana than a Compulsive Research. Compulsive usually filters our draws and digs for lands in the early game, but Pieces digs for powerful instant/sorceries like Time Warp or Dig Through Time for the midgame.
I was skeptical about Temple for a long while, but it is extremely powerful here as it still as good as an island with a High Tide effect, and better than an island after the High Tide effect is gone. It gains value with our many untap effects such as Candelabra of Tawnos, Snap, Treachery etc. Worst case you can always loot it, but I try to hold onto it if my opening hand has at least two other lands.
Countering an opponent's Sylvan Library or Yisan when you're on the draw is pretty much the only thing you want to counter in this meta. Force Spike gives us another chance to do so.
So I have been playing the deck with these changes:
-1 Delay
-1 Timetwister
+1 Dizzy Spell
+1 Flusterstorm
Question, how is delay? Every game I have played goes quite long, and unless your hitting their mana, it doesn't seem great. Also, Ubeltaeter pointed out that Circular Logic could be really great in the deck, getting ahead on cards, and having a 3 mana counter in the late game isn't THAT bad. Thoughts?
I have really liked the dizzy spell package, flusterstorm being great in the mirror, and not terrible elsewhere (pretty great against tasigur or keranos) and going off with dizzy spell isn't that hard. The curve has generally looked like: Turn 5 transmute + 2 mana counter, then go off. and if they play around the combo by holding up mana, you can just cast a planeswalker or some other threat. Konichiwa, Im not playing against myself much so I think sin collector isn't the biggest problem :P.
Delay is one of the best counters in this type of deck. A lot of the time we win before the suspend counters go off. In the late game it is even better than Counterspell and Memory Lapse. Why? The countered spell goes to exile (for awhile), so decks like Meren can't recur the creature you just countered.
It's also a hard counter so it's relevant at any stage of the game.
On a side note I'm seriously considering Hibernation with all the Gaddock Teeg's running around lately....
I've been enjoying Jace in multi a lot and wanted to give him a try in Duel.
A little about my meta: it's fairly diverse, except in one department. The meta is completely overrun with Yisan elfball, to the point of making 30-40% of my local duel meta, especially as most Tasigur players jumped ship in response to impending ban.
Given this, I've been thinking of adding some elf-specific specific hate like Hibernation, Wash Out, maybe even Acid Rain. Any thoughts from Jace pilots on the Yisan/elfball matchup?
I don't even consider Wasteland a spell, so it doesn't nonbo with High Tide. It's mostly to handle cradle and homeward path. Drownyard Temple is comparable to Myriad Landscape. If you have 3 mana at EOT it ramps you to 5 the next turn. Main difference being that it's colorless, but it's card advantage + ramp when being looted with Jace and then recurred, and it doesn't come tapped when played normally.
Condescend is at it's best when played on turn 2; any other turn you're going to be expending more than 2 mana and sacrificing valuable tempo plays just as cantrips and tutors. Most of the time we prefer to tap out for Jace on turn 2, especially against control decks where we're happy to have him eat removal.
Circular Logic is great, it's a bit of a gem in this deck like how Stubborn Denial is to Tasigur. Card advantage + cheap hard counter most of the time.
Oh how I've missed Daze Daze is great on the draw against control when you tap out for Jace on turn 2. I think it's necessary in those matchups where you absolutely NEED Jace to stick around, because you have only two lands in hand for example, and need the filtering to not miss your land drops. It's funny because even though we bounce a land at first from Daze, we will have more lands eventually from filtering our draws with Jace. Spell Pierce is only good against control, but Daze is better.
Misdirection was also in earlier iterations of the list. It is similar to Daze, and is a complete blowout when it works. Free counters are pretty good in this deck. Turnabout was probably the weakest card in the list, so I'm cutting it for now.
I tried Pieces of the Puzzle and liked it. But I dont't even run Compulsive Research presently because of how tight the list is, so there isn't space for Pieces right now. Maybe I'll cut Ancestral Vision for it?
@Nakhla
Ubeltaeter and I have also tested Hibernation, and while it does its job against our problem matchups (GBx, GWx, monogreen) and against Gaddock Teeg, I find that like Wash Out, it's a bit reactive and simply delays the inevitable. In its stead I've brought back in Talrand, Sky Summoner. Until recently I used to think talrand was winmore. He's a much slower and expensive storm spell and some games you would have Talrand and a high tide combo and he would be your second best option. He would come in afterwards and feel redundant. But on the other hand, he's a silver bullet against the green decks.
Even with a Gaddock Teeg in play you can build up enough board pressure with drakes, and instead of tutoring our combo cards which are now uncastable, just sit back on cantrips and counterspells and eventually switch gears to the beatdown plan.
This also applies to Yisan, where they have even fewer ways to deal with Talrand. Yisan's main way to disrupt us is with an early Phyrexian Revoker or Scavenging Ooze which they can tutor out as early as turn 3 with Yisan. But the great thing about this current build of Jace is that the deck doesn't fall apart if Jace is disabled, since you can go the control route with vedalken shackles and ugin. You can just wait awhile, bounce the Ooze or Revoker at EOT then go to town with High Tide. Or with Talrand in play, you can just sit back, wait to counter the Craterhoof, and kill them with Drakes. I think the Yisan at matchup is, at worst, even for us. Whether they start with a turn 1 dork, and whether we are on the play greatly determine the outcome.
Furthermore, if Gaea's Cradle gets banned with the upcoming banlist update today, there will be even less reason to run Hibernation or Wash Out.
1 Jace, Telepath Unbound
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Artifact - 7
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Prism Ring
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Vedalken Shackles
Creature - 2
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Palinchron
Enchantment - 1
1 Treachery
Planeswalker - 1
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Instant - 37
1 High Tide
1 Brainstorm
1 Mental Note
1 Thought Scour
1 Obsessive Search
1 Opt
1 Repeal
1 Snap
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Into the Roil
1 Impulse
1 Frantic Search
1 Intuition
1 Psionic Blast
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Flash of Insight
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Reweave
1 Force Spike
1 Spell Snare
1 Daze
1 Miscalculation
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Remand
1 Delay
1 Negate
1 Unsubstantiate
1 Counterspell
1 Circular Logic
1 Cryptic Command
1 Mystic Confluence
1 Misdirection
1 Force of Will
Sorcery - 13
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Serum Visions
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Timetwister
1 Order of Succession
1 Time Warp
1 Capture of Jingzhou
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Walk the Aeons
1 Time Spiral
30 Snow-Covered Island
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Temple of the False Gods
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Jace, Telepath Unbound
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Artifact - 6
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Vedalken Shackles
Creature - 2
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Palinchron
Enchantment - 2
1 Treachery
1 Future Sight
Planeswalker - 3
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Instant - 32
1 High Tide
1 Brainstorm
1 Thought Scour
1 Mental Note
1 Opt
1 Repeal
1 Snap
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Into the Roil
1 Impulse
1 Frantic Search
1 Intuition
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Flash of Insight
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Turnabout
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Dig Through Time
1 Spell Snare
1 Condescend
1 Miscalculation
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Remand
1 Delay
1 Counterspell
1 Complicate
1 Exclude
1 Cryptic Command
1 Mystic Confluence
1 Force of Will
Sorcery - 16
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Serum Visions
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Timetwister
1 Compulsive Research
1 Deep Analysis
1 Order of Succession
1 Capture of Jingzhou
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Time Spiral
1 Treasure Cruise
32 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
Introduction
This is an infinite combo deck in a heavy control shell which uses the free flashback ability of Jace's -3 to gain massive CA in all stages of the game, and to recur key combo cards that let us go infinite or dominate the board.
The key enabler in the deck is High Tide, which when combined with Jace's -3, allows for the extremely powerful double High Tide interaction usually only seen in Legacy & Vintage because of redundancy. We also have Extraplanar Lens as a 2nd High Tide and although it is much weaker, it is great as a hard control card because it persists beyond the the turn it is cast, unlike High Tide, and can be fetched with Tezzeret the Seeker. Tezzeret can then chain into Candelabra of Tawnos the next turn with his -1.
The next combo enabler is Palinchron, which we try to combo with High Tide/Extraplanar and 6 Islands to net infinite blue mana and storm. It can also combo with Phantasmal Image and 7 lands, or double High Tide and 4 Islands. After generating infinite mana, we win with a lethal Blue Suns' Zenith targetting the opponent. Zenith is easily tutorable through Merchant Scroll, which also finds High Tide. (Alternatively a Mind's Desire when we have the infinite mana and storm can also allow us to cast BSZ from exile for 0 to shuffle it back in, draw it with any of our exiled cantrips, and cast again with infinite mana targetting the opponent.)
Last but not least is Temporal Fissure, the only Storm card of the deck, and the true wincon of the deck. It allows us to completely upend the board in our favour and is essentially a one-sided Upheaval. Working towards a big Temporal Fissure kill is much more consistent and reliable than the Palinchron/Blue Sun's combo, the latter which requires a third combo card (Blue Suns' Zenith) and a certain amount of lands in play to go infinite.
How to play Jace and when to flip him
Most of the time we want to slam Jace down as fast as possible, either on turn 2 but ideally on turn 1 and on the play. This lets us dig sooner for our key cards and lets us flip him earlier so we can get as much use out of his -3 as possible.
Against aggro, we want Jace to flip ASAP so we can establish board control with his +1. Their only real way of interacting with us is to kill Jace, which is much harder when he is flipped and gaining 3 life a turn. They also have much less ways of interacting with us apart from killing Jace so we can rest assured when we go straight for the combo.
Against combo, we want to be flashbacking cantrips to dig for our combo, or flashbacking combo cards to race them for the win.
Control is a different story because we can afford to take our time and focus on card quality rather than card advantage. We should immediately -3 a one-mana cantrip and start beating them in the card advantage race. We aren't in any pressure to flip Jace early as each extra turn we get to loot with creature Jace gives us better card quality. With all that said and done, it is almost always correct to slam Jace down on turn 2 even if we are on the draw and/or are anticipating a counterspell or removal. We can risk tapping out on turns 1 to 3 against control anyway since there aren't that many cards that we are afraid of having them resolved early (that we can bounce later). What more, we've traded a card in our command zone for a counterspell or removal spell in their hand! Talk about value!
Wincons
The instant-win condition is to deck out the opponent with a Blue Sun's Zenith powered by the mana from our interaction of Palinchron and High Tide. Sometimes we can't get all these cards so we have to rely on alternatives.
The first alternative would be a Temporal Fissure gameplan, where we rack up enough storm for a one-sided Upheaval. This puts them so far back that we can dominate the board with Talrand, the Sky Summoner, Future Sight, or Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, or buy us enough turns to find aforementioned win conditions and close the game.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor is also a consideration in this strategy, but I prefer Teferi PW, because he doesn't prevent me from flipping Baby Jace.
The second one is Ugin locking down the board with the -X, and on subsequent turns you +2 on the face after you've controlled the board.
The third alternative wincon is aggroing the opponent to death with either flying 2/2's from Talrand, stolen creatures, or Tezzeret -5. I particularly like Talrand as an alternative wincon since the style of the deck naturally supports him, and he is not dependent on any of our key cards if they're exiled or unavailable. Our array of Time Warps fit perfectly with Talrand. Anyone who's played Talrand in DC before will know how powerful Time Warps are in such a deck.
Some advanced plays and tips
1. When comboing, save your bounce spells for your Snapcaster Mage and Candelabra of Tawnos! Repeal on Candelabra gives you extra mana and 2 extra storm. Snapcaster Mage can target Snap in your graveyard to bounce the Snapcaster back so you can recast it and target something else. With an active High Tide effect it costs you no extra mana and nets you 2 extra storm.
2. Treat Jace as a graveyard resource for Delve spells or Flash of Insight if he gets countered or removed. For example if Jace is on 3 loyalty counters and I -3 giving flashback to my Dig Through Time, I would then put Jace in the graveyard rather than in the command zone. Only after he gets exiled from the Delve cost do I choose to move him to the command zone.
3. Delving is required skill in this deck, much like how to chain our dig spells and cantrips in tandem with shuffle effects. Keeping in mind that we might have to resolve a Time Spiral it's obvious we want to minimise our chances of drawing 7 Islands. So when delving we always start with the lands, followed by the counterspells, then the cantrips and lastly and only if we are forced to, our combo cards such as Frantic Search, Intuition, Merchant Scroll, Temporal Fissure, Timetwister etc.
4. I usually loot mainphase with Jace, but sometimes I like to keep him untapped so I can draw out removal from the opponent. For example I have one card in my grave and a Mental Note in hand, and my opponent plays a Gilded Drake targetting my creature Jace. I will then Mental Note to get my graveyard to 4 cards and loot in response to the Gilded drake trigger to flip him and fizzle it. On that note if someone steals your Jace and flips him he will returned flipped under your control. Just don't tell them until after they've flip him
5. You can get infinite mana/storm with 4 islands and Palinchron if you can High Tide twice. For example with Jace, Telepath Unbound on 5 counters, 4 untapped islands, Palinchron in hand and High Tide in hand, tap an island to cast High Tide, give High Tide flashback with Jace's -3, tap the second island to cast the High Tide again. You have 1 blue floating in pool and your remaining 2 islands tap for 3 each, giving you just enough mana to cast Palinchron. Your islands tap for 12 mana in total, which is exactly the same as having 6 islands and 1 active High Tide effect.
6. You don't always have to go infinite to win with this deck. Sometimes a storm count of 6 or 7 is enough to force a concession, depending on the game state (oh yeah our only storm card here is Temporal Fissure ^^). When that happens every count of storm matters. We can Remand or our own spells in a pinch or Repeal our own Snapcasters and Mox Diamond.
7. Intuition is the best card in the deck after High Tide. If played right, you will almost always get a "GG" from the other player or a "zzzzzzz". A typical nobrainer pile I use consists of High Tide, Palinchron and Time Spiral. A knowledgeable opponent will never let you have the Palinchron anyway, since it can't be recurred with Jace, so in effect the pile really just comes down to High Tide and Time Spiral. The Palinchron is there for noobs. Otherwise you can get Temporal Fissure, Timetwister, Flash of Insight, or Deep Analysis as the 3rd card, depending on whether Jace is flipped or not.
Time Spiral is the correct card for the opponent to let us keep since it gets exiled regardless of whether we -3 it or not. High Tide going to the grave forces us to exile it from the flashback and we only get to cast it once.
8. In grindy matchups, Intuition should get High Tide, Flash of Insight and Deep Analysis instead of High Tide, Time Spiral, Flash/Deep Anal/Palinchron etc. So the second slot, which would normally be Time Spiral instead becomes a flashback card, and so does the third slot.
9. Jace's -3 means that if the targeted spell goes to a different zone, for example from Memory Lapse or Remand then it doesn't exile because it never goes to the graveyard. -3 on High Tide and Remanding it back to your hand is a valid play.
10. If you have four cards in grave, and loot a Madness spell with Jace, he doesn't flip. This is because the Madness ability exiles the card during resolution, so when Jace's loot ability resolves it still only counts four cards in your graveyard, because the discarded Madness card is on the stack. Very useful in control mirrors where you don't want to flip Jace and would rather keep looting first.
11. There are ways to use Mental Note and Thought Scour other than as insta-flips or cantrips. With
Sensei's Divining TopBrainstorm/Ponder and Jace's -3, it can potentially be a way to dig deep while getting the best cards of your topdeck.Activate Top's 1 ability, then in response activate the T ability to draw and move Top. The first ability resolves so you can move Top to the 3rd position and Thought Scour the top two cards away and redraw Top. Now you can keep digging with Top while still having the option of selecting the best card out of your top 3.1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
That said, I really think there are things in your list that shouldn't be there. I mean, you don't play Candelabra, and that's a big mistake. Tezzeret is really good in the deck, way better than Tamiyo. You play Memory Jar, but really Windfall seems way better (it's "Jaceable", costs less mana, fills your graveyard, etc).
Although I understand Talrand (I will try him), I disagree of your take on relying on Time Walks instead of the Brain Freeze/Sphinx's Tutelage plan. I'll test it, though, but Freeze seems way faster. I also don't understand the Phantasmal Image... Specially when you don't play Cloud of Faeries. Any reason?
Also, you seem to be running 5 mana sources more than me. Ever feel you're flooded? (Mikokoro, Petal and 3 Islands). I don't like Petal because we need steady mana sources, but I like the idea behind Mikokoro and will test it!
ps: but, you know, just go to the topic that already existed.
I see. I still think the Palinchron storm wincon is a little convoluted for me, though. It's very vulnerable and I wouldn't dedicate more than 1 slot (Palinchron itself) to it.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
I also I believe I have more to offer in terms of alternative card choices, strategy and matchup advice so I didn't post a reply on the other Jace thread, because I felt it needed its own space. Trust me, this thread was a long time coming and I have a lot more ideas to follow.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
@fsecco:
You're mostly right about Phantasmal Image being a bad card. It is a dead card unless I'm playing against Narset or Prime Time. Outside of that it only combos with Palinchron. I will slot it out for Erayo.
I'm not running Cloud of Faeries for the same reason I'm not running Candelabra, which is 100x better than Cloud. Cloud of Faeries only works when you have High Tide/Extraplanar out, and when you do it's medicore. You're wasting a card for 1 storm and 2 bonus mana, which can only be justified if you have Time Spiral in hand. I might run Candelabra, but right now I feel it's a bit worse than Turnabout. Frantic Search>Turnabout>Snap>Candelabra of Tawnos>Reset>Cloud of Faeries. I've gone Turnabout with 5 lands before to cast Time Spiral; Candelabra doesn't let me do that.
Also Brain Freeze is absolute ***** unless you have infinite storm. 16-20 storm isn't enough to kill someone with a Freeze in this format. Sphinx's Tutelage is kind of better than Freeze, but if you're not killing the opponent in the next two turns, and I estimate you need at least 30 triggers against a monocolour deck, you're literally not doing anything but fueling their graveyard.
Now I feel kind of stupid for not running Windfall, since I think it's potentially much better than Timetwister in the early game. A turn 3 Twister doesn't get you to flip Jace and also resets your graveyard. But I don't think Windfall is necessarily better than Memory Jar; it's alot closer to Timetwister than Jar. Windfall doesn't do much in the mid to late game when you're both sitting on 2-3 cards each. Jar is better than Windfall and Twister in the late game because the opponent's new hand only lasts until the end of your turn, which is important if you know you can't win on the same turn. Memory Jar is usually activated the turn after it's resolved, so you're not paying an extra 3 like you do for Windfall the turn you go off. But I think the 3 mana is negligible if you're going off anyway. Windfall can be recurred with Jace which is super important. Overall Windfall is the best suggestion so far, so props for that.
I am running 38 lands because I don't want to ever miss a land drop until around turn 6. Honestly I think I could even go up to 40 lands. Remember this isn't Legacy High Tide where you only need 3-4 lands to go off because you run 4 copies of High Tide. With only one effective copy of High Tide its best to combo off with 6 Islands and Palinchron.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Petal is good because it provides storm and free mana. Also getting a turn 1 Jace is very powerful.
I should also note that Mikokoro combos with Palin+High Tide to draw your whole deck if you're out of gas or lack the wincon in hand. You will use Mikokoro until you find Blue Sun's Zenith/Mind's Desire. You won't get infinite mana from Mikokoro, 5 Islands, High Tide and Palinchron though unfortunately, only infinite storm.
This deck wants to get to 6 lands ASAP. I think of Time Warp as a free Rampant Growth that gets cast on turn 5. I run just one nonbasic land for obvious reasons, and Myriad Landscape is not a nonbasic land. It will turn into 2 Islands at some point, so it's basically a Time Warp.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
So, I understand you wanting your own topic, but my list and your list are only 24 cards away from each other. We have 76 cards in common (counting basic lands and the commander), so I really think they're the same deck and I'll treat them as that for the time being.
What I like about Cloud of Faeries is that it counts to flip Erayo and it provides an early blocker to protect Jace. Funny how I don't like Turnabout... I don't know why, but I never want that card in my hand. Reset seems better to me, but even that I don't like. I love Candelabra because if can be fetched by Tezz and it's reusable. It's awesome with Extrapanar Lens and if you are ever playing Temporal Fissure in a High Tide turn you can bounce it back and generate a ton more mana. You can also untap it with Tezz, making it insane.
About Brain Freeze, I disagree completely, because this is a Jace deck. It is very different from Legacy indeed, but here I have, many times, played Brain Freeze 2 times in the same turn with the -3 from Jace, making that 16-20 storm lethal. This is a real play. Tutelage helps that plan a lot. One of the best things about Tutelage is that you can play your Timetwister/Time Spiral and it will mill the opponent for at least 14 cards immediately, so you don't have to start from scratch.
My problem with Memory Jar is that you will normally play it to activate it next turn, since it costs 5. I mean, if we're playing 5cc Draw7s, why not Time Reversal? The thing is I don't think we need that many Draw7s, and I feel Windfall is better than Jar, specially because you can use a 20-card hand to win by making your opponent draw 20 cards. If Tezz had 5 loyalty counters on him, that discussion would be very different hehe
About Lotus Petal, yeah Jace turn 1 is great, but I wouldn't want to do it with Petal. With the moxen we lose cards in hand but they're constant mana. I always felt Petal was lacking when I used it to fuel a turn 1 Jace. Maybe I'm wrong, but for now I'm playing Mikokoro instead of it (I LOVE Mikokoro, it's a nice tech I didn't think for this deck!)
About the 3 extra lands, that's play style I guess. I'm playing Opt, Peek and Careful Study over 3 lands and I feel fine about it.
I understand the Time Walks, but I feel they only work great with Talrand. I'm playing Talrand now too, because he's awesome, and there are a lot of times where shipping the turn and waiting to attack next turn is ok, specially if you managed to resolve Temporal Fissure. I feel Fissure is the real wincon in this deck, actually. The rest is just a matter of choosing a way to win.
Also, I forgot to ask about Muddle the Mixture. I failed to find anything really relevant that if fetches. What am I missing? I mean, Dizzy Spell is a must, but muddle fetches... Snapcaster and Medallion? And Counterspell and Into the Roil?
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-commander-decklists/629771-jace-high-tides-prodigy
However, why run Tamiyo, the Moon Sage? She doesn't accelerate you, only draws you value if your opponent is going whole ham on the aggro plan, and only taps down one thing. Just not enough convincing there for me..other than that, our lists are pretty similar man.
Edit: On the whole, Talrand, Sky Summoner also seems out of place as well. Only generating value assuming you get to untap with him seems unlikely. Even with the control shell behind it, seems almost reaching too far. But heck, that's just me.
@DrDiabetes: Tamiyo has dug me out of bad situations before against aggro. Keeping a Gaea's Cradle or Shrine of Burning Rage tapped down is pretty crucial... I'm testing out Tezzeret instead now with the Candelabra package and I'll let you know how it goes.
I dunno about our lists being similar.. 24 cards is alot.
@fsecco: I'm going to run both Windfall and Jar for now. I'm testing out Tezzeret so I'm definitely keeping Jar.
Lol I don't even have to do anything to flip Erayo. I've gone like Preordain on turn 5, found Erayo, cast Erayo, -2 Preordain and cast another cantrip to trigger her. Cloud of Faeries is too inconsistent and weak in this deck, let alone this format (barring Imperial Animar).
And yes I agree that Temporal Fissure is the real wincon, even though it doesn't technically win you the game straightaway. Just like Upheaval in Tasigur, it's overwhelming card and board advantage.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Cephalid Coliseum seems bad. It's a wasteland target that isn't an island and works bad with Twister and Spiral. I tested it a little bit but I currently find Mikokoro better.
I don't like cantrips that don't draw you straightaway like Portent. Maybe Peek and Opt but that's about it. Impulse I didn't really like because it costs 2 mana and I only want to play Jace on t2. Think Twice is an exception because of the flashback curving well with Jace's loot. Right now insisting at the bare minimum counters I feel I should have so I don't know how to make room for extra cantrips. And don't make me cut Islands lol.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Impulse is awesome, because this deck wants to dig deep. You don't need to play it turn 2, and it may cost 1 due to Sapphire Medallion at some point. I wouldn't ever cut it, and would also add Anticipate as a worse duplicate.
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Palinchron
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
1 Sapphire Medallion
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Future Sight
1 Treachery
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brainstorm
1 Complicate
1 Condescend
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Dig Through Time
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Flash of Insight
1 Force of Will
1 Frantic Search
1 High Tide
1 Impulse
1 Into the Roil
1 Intuition
1 Mana Leak
1 Memory Lapse
1 Mental Note
1 Miscalculation
1 Mystic Confluence
1 Remand
1 Repeal
1 Snap
1 Spell Snare
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Thought Scour
1 Ancestral Vision
1 Capture of Jingzhou
1 Compulsive Research
1 Deep Analysis
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Order of Succession
1 Ponder
1 Preordain
1 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
1 Temporal Manipulation
1 Time Spiral
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Myriad Landscape
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Timetwister
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Extraplanar Lens
1 Turnabout
1 Opt
1 Temporal Fissure
1 Spell Pierce
1 Delay
1 Exclude
32 Snow-Covered Island
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
I am finally running Future Sight, Deep Analysis, Impulse. @fsecco Yeah you're right about Impulse being a staple in this deck. I used to think it was a conflicting T2 play with Jace VP but recently I have started to cast Jace VP less frequently on T2 due to the changing nature of this deck towards more permission in the early turns. In matchups like Animar or Yisan you are better often holding a counter instead of tapping out for Jace. Impulse now gives me a good EOT spell if I don't play the counter, and it is also great in the later stages of the game. That said, I probably should have played Impulse in my old iterations of the deck :P. It's not useless like Think Twice that's for sure!
Deep Analysis is another all-star card I neglected to include before. One of my big problems with control mirrors was running out of gas once they had finished countering all my spells. Deep Analysis with active loot is automatic +2 CA which is HUGE.
Now with Intuition I have the pile of High Tide, Flash of Insight, Deep Analysis if I anticipate a grindy game.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor went back in since the deck doesn't need to rely on Jace VP as it did before.
Also updated the main post by cleaning up the outdated cards and strategies, and added a bunch of tips and tricks.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Also recent changes:
-1 Snow-Covered Island
+1 Temple of the False God
I was skeptical about Temple for a long while, but it is extremely powerful here as it still as good as an island with a High Tide effect, and better than an island after the High Tide effect is gone. It gains value with our many untap effects such as Candelabra of Tawnos, Snap, Treachery etc. Worst case you can always loot it, but I try to hold onto it if my opening hand has at least two other lands.
-1 Complicate
+1 Force Spike
Countering an opponent's Sylvan Library or Yisan when you're on the draw is pretty much the only thing you want to counter in this meta. Force Spike gives us another chance to do so.
-1 Exclude
+1 Time Warp
3rd Time Warp slot used to be Temporal Mastery, but then I cut it completely. I put Time Warp back in for the 3x Time Warp Intuition pile (Capture of Jingzhou, Temporal Manipulation, Time Warp.
-1 Timetwister
+1 Memory Jar
Flex slots.
-1 Compulsive Research
+1 Lotus Petal
Flex slots.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
-1 Delay
-1 Timetwister
+1 Dizzy Spell
+1 Flusterstorm
Question, how is delay? Every game I have played goes quite long, and unless your hitting their mana, it doesn't seem great. Also, Ubeltaeter pointed out that Circular Logic could be really great in the deck, getting ahead on cards, and having a 3 mana counter in the late game isn't THAT bad. Thoughts?
I have really liked the dizzy spell package, flusterstorm being great in the mirror, and not terrible elsewhere (pretty great against tasigur or keranos) and going off with dizzy spell isn't that hard. The curve has generally looked like: Turn 5 transmute + 2 mana counter, then go off. and if they play around the combo by holding up mana, you can just cast a planeswalker or some other threat. Konichiwa, Im not playing against myself much so I think sin collector isn't the biggest problem :P.
It's also a hard counter so it's relevant at any stage of the game.
On a side note I'm seriously considering Hibernation with all the Gaddock Teeg's running around lately....
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)
Pour over the pages?
Pieces of the puzzle?
I've been enjoying Jace in multi a lot and wanted to give him a try in Duel.
A little about my meta: it's fairly diverse, except in one department. The meta is completely overrun with Yisan elfball, to the point of making 30-40% of my local duel meta, especially as most Tasigur players jumped ship in response to impending ban.
Given this, I've been thinking of adding some elf-specific specific hate like Hibernation, Wash Out, maybe even Acid Rain. Any thoughts from Jace pilots on the Yisan/elfball matchup?
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
+1 Drownyard Temple
+1 Wasteland
I don't even consider Wasteland a spell, so it doesn't nonbo with High Tide. It's mostly to handle cradle and homeward path. Drownyard Temple is comparable to Myriad Landscape. If you have 3 mana at EOT it ramps you to 5 the next turn. Main difference being that it's colorless, but it's card advantage + ramp when being looted with Jace and then recurred, and it doesn't come tapped when played normally.
-1 Condescend
+1 Circular Logic
Condescend is at it's best when played on turn 2; any other turn you're going to be expending more than 2 mana and sacrificing valuable tempo plays just as cantrips and tutors. Most of the time we prefer to tap out for Jace on turn 2, especially against control decks where we're happy to have him eat removal.
Circular Logic is great, it's a bit of a gem in this deck like how Stubborn Denial is to Tasigur. Card advantage + cheap hard counter most of the time.
-1 Spell Pierce
+1 Daze
Oh how I've missed Daze Daze is great on the draw against control when you tap out for Jace on turn 2. I think it's necessary in those matchups where you absolutely NEED Jace to stick around, because you have only two lands in hand for example, and need the filtering to not miss your land drops. It's funny because even though we bounce a land at first from Daze, we will have more lands eventually from filtering our draws with Jace. Spell Pierce is only good against control, but Daze is better.
-1 Turnabout
+1 Misdirection
Misdirection was also in earlier iterations of the list. It is similar to Daze, and is a complete blowout when it works. Free counters are pretty good in this deck. Turnabout was probably the weakest card in the list, so I'm cutting it for now.
I tried Pieces of the Puzzle and liked it. But I dont't even run Compulsive Research presently because of how tight the list is, so there isn't space for Pieces right now. Maybe I'll cut Ancestral Vision for it?
@Nakhla
Ubeltaeter and I have also tested Hibernation, and while it does its job against our problem matchups (GBx, GWx, monogreen) and against Gaddock Teeg, I find that like Wash Out, it's a bit reactive and simply delays the inevitable. In its stead I've brought back in Talrand, Sky Summoner. Until recently I used to think talrand was winmore. He's a much slower and expensive storm spell and some games you would have Talrand and a high tide combo and he would be your second best option. He would come in afterwards and feel redundant. But on the other hand, he's a silver bullet against the green decks.
Even with a Gaddock Teeg in play you can build up enough board pressure with drakes, and instead of tutoring our combo cards which are now uncastable, just sit back on cantrips and counterspells and eventually switch gears to the beatdown plan.
This also applies to Yisan, where they have even fewer ways to deal with Talrand. Yisan's main way to disrupt us is with an early Phyrexian Revoker or Scavenging Ooze which they can tutor out as early as turn 3 with Yisan. But the great thing about this current build of Jace is that the deck doesn't fall apart if Jace is disabled, since you can go the control route with vedalken shackles and ugin. You can just wait awhile, bounce the Ooze or Revoker at EOT then go to town with High Tide. Or with Talrand in play, you can just sit back, wait to counter the Craterhoof, and kill them with Drakes. I think the Yisan at matchup is, at worst, even for us. Whether they start with a turn 1 dork, and whether we are on the play greatly determine the outcome.
Furthermore, if Gaea's Cradle gets banned with the upcoming banlist update today, there will be even less reason to run Hibernation or Wash Out.
1. Jace High Tide Control
2. 5CC Horde Scapeshift
3. Selvala Channel Emrakul
4. Selvala GW Combo
5. Keranos Wildfire
Damia (EDH)
Niv-Mizzet (EDH)
Karador the Hermit Druid (EDH)