You sure? I like the idea a lot but there'a number of flaws with him. First of all he's double blue,not the easiest to make based on how I normally fetch, usually red first, then blue, then black. Though your deck here is far different from rune's and has less Sneak Attack so maybe that's not as big a deal. Second the removal restrictions:
Creature only
Creature must be tapped
Must be an oppoent's creature, cannot protect your guys or reuse their ETBs
The flash option is nice although a bit expensive, costs as much as Venser, Shaper Savant without being even close to as good. I'm torn on him, I want to play him but Idk if he's really deserving of a spot. I don't really find myself wanting for creature removal.
Really I'm just hoping this is a trend, more merfolk wizards please!
Im not positive he's going to go in the deck because you bring up some good points, but for just 2 mana hes VALUE. Maybe im kinda jaded because my meta is all aggro/combo, but bouncing creatures can really slow your opponent down in an aggro vs aggro matchup. Against draw go it might be just a 2/2 for 2 so maybe your right.
My fetching order is usually blue, then black, then red. My motto is " you can always use more blue"(mainly for counter mana)
If you're looking at the new Harbinger dude, why not Dungeon Geists instead? They were far more value during my Sygg's Era.
Voidmage Prodigy depends on how many Wizards you play. It was a total bomb in Derevi, but this was mainly because of the circumvention of commander tax.
I was more interested in the harbinger because he is 2 mana. The instant speed 4 mana is just icing.
Prodigy: Marchesa is a Wizard and outside of her there is 10 more wizards. In marchesa you could get around it thanks to the recursion.
The only reason I enjoyed it in Derevi is because it required no additional setup and rewarded me just for doing what the deck does anyway (and Derevi likes to re ETB so there's that too).
So FearDReaper, I took this one over here because it's a comment for your deck and I decided not to annoy everyone on the other forum with our back and forth more. However I cannot recommend Phyrexian Altar highly enough, regardless of the ruling. The card is just fantastic. Your opponents have no idea what to expect because you can literally whip out anything in your hand with virtually no warning. And since your guys bounce back it costs you almost nothing to use them this way. Think of it like giving all your spells convoke, marchesa style.
It also goes infinite with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed and Living Death and at least 5 other creatures. That's more fun fact than anything though, it's real use is as a fantastic sac effect that lets you generate massive bursts of mana whenever you need to. Although FWIW, I have actually pulled off that combo once haha. My inner johnny had a field day.
Im apparently blind, how does that infinite combo work exactly?
Its not that i dont like the Alter it just has the "not a creature" problem. I would rather use Bloodflow Connoisseur as a free three mana sac outlet because it can at least swing and hit your opponent in the face.
Maybe its because its duals vs multiplayer, maybe its because my deck is more aggro then control but i have found that any non creature card in the deck needs to have eithor significant board impact on its own (meaning it doesnt require marchesa or another card to be good) OR it needs to mess up your opponent (discard, counters, boardwipes etc) OR it needs to give you card advantage. Mana rocks are the only exception to this and even then i contemplate taking them out for creatures like Iron Myr but i dont because people say thats crazy lol.
This is just the conclusion I have come to after lots of dual playtesting.
I can think of to many scenario's in duals where the alters just sit there doing nothing where if they were creatures they could at least block or attack. Maybe im correct, maybe im crazy but thats how I look at it
Edit: Ok i see it now. With flayer it wins the game. Nothing to bank on but its neat.
After all the adjustments I have made, whats your stance on Kiki-Jiki? I know you didn't like him before when i ran like 9 Legos. I cut it down to 5, 6 if you include Marchesa. How many Legos are to many?
After all the adjustments I have made, whats your stance on Kiki-Jiki? I know you didn't like him before when i ran like 9 Legos. I cut it down to 5, 6 if you include Marchesa. How many Legos are to many?
I think Xiahou Dun is better in a 1-2 colour deck.
Kiki has that dangerous RRR for a 3c deck. I think it'd be better to go without him, for your own consistency's sake. At least in the beginning while you are still hammering out a finalized list.
Its to bad because i JUST bought one and the Johnny in me says nooooo dont take it out, the COMBOS. But the spike in me realizes your correct. I dont run Cryptic Comand for the same reason.
Yes I have, I have studied his first list intensively and was very happy to see a second one posted not to long ago. I believe I posted the decklist already in the thread but thanks anyway. Was there anything in particular you liked about it that I'm not already running?
Edit: Ok i see it now. With flayer it wins the game. Nothing to bank on but its neat.
Well I mean basically any ETB wins the game, not just flayer.
6 other creatures - infinite mana
Solemn simulacrum or any card draw - infinite card draw
Venser, Shaper Savant - bounce everything you dont control
Etc.
Flayer is the most obvious but it doesnt really matter who you have. If it happens the game is almost definitely over.
Yes I have, I have studied his first list intensively and was very happy to see a second one posted not to long ago. I believe I posted the decklist already in the thread but thanks anyway. Was there anything in particular you liked about it that I'm not already running?
He's not running any counterspells. Thats interesting. As a 1v1 deck in the most cutthroat of metas with access to blue I'm pretty shocked he has none. Otherwise I get it. Also Unleash is pretty awesome in 1v1.
Yes I have, I have studied his first list intensively and was very happy to see a second one posted not to long ago. I believe I posted the decklist already in the thread but thanks anyway. Was there anything in particular you liked about it that I'm not already running?
He's not running any counterspells. Thats interesting. As a 1v1 deck in the most cutthroat of metas with access to blue I'm pretty shocked he has none. Otherwise I get it. Also Unleash is pretty awesome in 1v1.
Personally, I don't agree with that philosophy. But that's why we get multiple incarnations of the same decks.
3Drinks, aside from the lack of counterspells, what do you think of the decklist? Im interested in his curve, no 6 drops and only two or three 5 drops and no mana rocks. Looks kinda like your Alesha and Bellstriker lists (curve wise) I kinda like the idea. I find that mana rocks slow down my tempo a bit.
Yes I have, I have studied his first list intensively and was very happy to see a second one posted not to long ago. I believe I posted the decklist already in the thread but thanks anyway. Was there anything in particular you liked about it that I'm not already running?
He's not running any counterspells. Thats interesting. As a 1v1 deck in the most cutthroat of metas with access to blue I'm pretty shocked he has none. Otherwise I get it. Also Unleash is pretty awesome in 1v1.
He's also not using unspeakable symbol which is interesting. When I was testing the symbol out in 1v1 i actually took it out because it wasn't solid as a non-creature permanent. I found there were times when I had unlucky opening hands where I drew no creatures yet this thing was in my hand. I found myself hating it in those scenarios. I put it back because in this thread lots of people recommended i use it again, but after seeing a pro marchesa list take it out I'm tempted to do the same. Am i crazy?
Ok, I have spent some time looking at the curves of non-green aggro dualcommander decks on mtgtop8.com
I looked at 5 different decklists. Sygg, Grenzo, Krenko, Zurgo, and Yu Ke's Marchesa decklist.
I then averaged the 5 curves together and adjusted it slightly to come up with this curve:
Lands: 36
1: 16
2: 19
3: 16
4: 9
5: 3
I'm going to see if I can mold my list to this curve. Expect an update soon
Edit: Decklist is now updated to match the curve. I wasn't to sure what to put in for all those 1 drops so i put in a bunch of the counters 3 drinks recommended a while ago.
I realize I'm basically talking to myself at this point, but to anyone that does check my thread I would like to initiate a discussion on some of the new origins cards:
Liliana, Heretical Healer: If on the fence with her. She is very good but the question is, is she good enough? Is she the next amazing black staple or is she just a glorified Unearth that makes a 2/2 zombie.
Disciple of the Ring: Is she terrible in an aggro list and only good in control? If not, do I have enough instants/sorceries to run her?
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: I'm not a fan but the card has been getting some hype. I'd like more opinions
Harbinger of the Tides: I really like this guy, am I crazy? Turn 2 bounce a mana dork or something. Could be good tempo early game. Late game it still has use being an instant speed bounce. Im more interested in just playing him as a 2 drop with the instant part just being "icing on the cake"
Priest of the Blood Rite: My gut reaction to this guy is I love him, but I have a soft spot for big value demon's like Abyssal Persecutor and Desecration Demon. If you have read the rest of the thread you will know I'm the only one. That being said this guy at least synergises with Marchesa potentially giving me 2 or 3 demons if I can blink him in and out a couple times. What do you guys think of him?
Blazing Hellhound: a 4/3 sac outlet that deals damage to creatures/players would be bonkers IF you didn't have to pay 1 each time. Does the pay 1 keep him from being playable?
Liliana, Heretical Healer: If on the fence with her. She is very good but the question is, is she good enough? Is the next amazing black staple or is she just a glorified Unearth that makes a 2/2 zombie.
She's definitely better in 1v1 than multiplayer. I really don't think I'll run her in my multiplayer build but in 1v1 discard is really strong and she has a pretty good chance of surviving and building a board presence. I feel like she could be worth a shot but it's not a shoe-in.
Disciple of the Ring: Is she terrible in an aggro list and only good in control? If not, do I have enough instants/sorceries to run her?
At 5 she's expensive and her ability suite doesn't seem that game breaking unless you've got a lot instant and sorceries. And she definitely seems like a control card. I feel like you should pass this one.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: I'm not a fan but the card has been getting some hype. I'd like more opinions
I like these guys a lot as a card, I don't love them for marchesa. I'm really not a big fan of tokens strategies in marchesa because we really don't get much extra value out of them. Unlike creature cards we can't recur them or protect them, our tokens are no different than anyone else's. I mean a strong ETB is a strong ETB but idk. Did you ever consider running Beetleback Chief or Siege-gang Commander before? Pia and kiran don't add much extra value over chief to us since we have plenty of flyers and that ability is expensive. And I would argue siege-gang might be even better.
I rejected him. Then I thought about it more. He's actually pretty strong, 5 mana for an evasive 4/3 is strong and that ETB won't lack for targets. I've definitely wished for a guy who just killed on ETB before but I never liked Shadowborn Demon (sac trigger is annoying), Nekrataal (too many conditions), or Skinthinner (doesn't kill enough of the threats). This guy might warrant testing. But in your deck he's at the very top of your curve so I'm not sure he's effective enough for that. Try to think about the kinds of creature threats you see and figure out how many of them he'd be an answer to, that might help.
Harbinger of the Tides: I really like this guy, am I crazy? Turn 2 bounce a mana dork or something. Could be good tempo early game. Late game it still has use being an instant speed bounce. Im more interested in just playing him as a 2 drop with the instant part just being "icing on the cake"
Not at all, in your deck I think you should play him. He seems really effective in 1v1.
EDIT: I just realized this totally contradicts what I said earlier lol. What I said still applies but I realized you were right about the value. Cheap, efficient, can flash if necessary and has the possibility of 2 for 1'ing your opponent, definitely solid.
Priest of the Blood Rite: My gut reaction to this guy is I love him, but I have a soft spot for big value demon's like Abyssal Persecutor and Desecration Demon. If you have read the rest of the thread you will know I'm the only one. That being said this guy at least synergises with Marchesa potentially giving me 2 or 3 demons if I can blink him in and out a couple times. What do you guys think of him?
I feel like given your curve any 5 mana guy you play you should be asking yourself "does this win me the game". Idk if this does. You get a lot of immediate P/T but without haste there's no damage until next turn. And since that's an upkeep trigger it's going to be hard to avoid, he is going to be hurting you. Also like I said before, any investment you make in tokens can be wiped out in an instant, marchesa provides no protection for them.
Lets think about this. If you can't keep recycling him, you paid 5 for a 5/5 flyer and a 2/2 that hurts you as much as he hurts your opponent. I don't think I'd play that. If I can recycle guys I can easily think of many things I'd rather be playing in the 5-6 mana range that aren't in your deck: Flayer of the Hatebound, River Kelpie, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Keiga, the Tide Star, Dragonlord Silumgar, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Gary, etc.
Blazing Hellhound: a 4/3 sac outlet that deals damage to creatures/players would be bonkers IF you didn't have to pay 1 each time. Does the pay 1 keep him from being playable?
I mean you could just play Goblin Sharpshooter, that basically is 1 damage to a creature or player every time something dies, he just doesn't come with the sac effect. Idk I find him underwhelming.
Also I feel like with a number of these you're looking for a finisher. I'm not trying to harp on it but you do realize that Marchesa + a sac effect + Flayer of the Hatebound is 9 damage each turn to a creature or player starting the turn you play him and 13-14 damage on your turns starting the following turn (since you can attack too). And that's not even including anyone else you have in play which you could be sac'ing for damage too. There's a reason he sits towards the top of the curve in rune's build, with marchesa he really is an exceptional finisher. It's an overwhelmingly massive amount of damage in very little time.
Hey Central, thanks for the valued input. I was worried I was just talking to myself on here lol. I agree with you for the most part on what you said on the origin's cards. What made you change your mind on Harbinger of the Tide? You didn't seem to be a huge fan of his before and it made me second guess him.
You are kinda right, I am looking for 1-2 more big threats that are going to kill my opponent if left alive. As amazing as the Flayer is, its 6 mana. In all the non-green aggro decks I searched none of them played a 6 drop that couldn't also be cast for cheaper like Fireblast. Yu Ke's Marchesa (top8) list wasn't running him either so I thought I would try dropping him and see how much I miss him. If i'm really desperate I'll put him back, but i'd like to see if i can find a way to stick to under 6 if possible. Of the 7 cards you mentioned, 3 are 5 mana. River Kelpie: I can see this guy being a multiplayer all-star but he requires stuff to be bouncing in and out of play to be really good. I would like my 5 drops to benefit from yet not require the bouncing strategy. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Currently undergoing testing. I find that when he resolves he is an unparalleled beast in the deck, the trick is resolving him with a 3 red casting cost in a 3 colour deck. Gray Merchant is kinda meh in 3 colour imo, i can easily see him just doing 2 damage under some scenario's and I want my 5 drops to be reliable bombs that will bring the pain if not dealt with.
I'm looking to replace Grim-grin. I just cant get the image of him sitting on the battlefield unable to untap to be of any use out of my head. What if he is the only creature in play? What if Marchesa isn't out and I dont want to sac anything? I dont want to use something that requires sacing to be useful. Same logic goes with Sidisi and Shadowborne Demon.
I feel like the deck is full of card draw and answers but is a bit short on questions. Any other suggestions for the 5 drop slot? If not the Priest of the Blood Rite will at least get tested. A demon army just seems too awesome to not at least try
Hey Central, thanks for the valued input. I was worried I was just talking to myself on here lol. I agree with you for the most part on what you said on the origin's cards. What made you change your mind on Harbinger of the Tide? You didn't seem to be a huge fan of his before and it made me second guess him.
Honestly, your value comment. I get stuck on multiplayer where everything has to have a purpose, vanilla creatures with a chance of maybe setting back one of your opponents aren't really enough. So I was thinking of him as removal and commenting that as far as removal goes he's mediocre. But that's actually not the point here. Here he's a cheap efficiently costed wizard that has the possibility of setting back your opponent a turn and can even be flashed in as an emergency response in the right situation. That's definitely value and worth trying out.
You are kinda right, I am looking for 1-2 more big threats that are going to kill my opponent if left alive. As amazing as the Flayer is, its 6 mana. In all the non-green aggro decks I searched none of them played a 6 drop that couldn't also be cast for cheaper like Fireblast. Yu Ke's Marchesa (top8) list wasn't running him either so I thought I would try dropping him and see how much I miss him. If i'm really desperate I'll put him back, but i'd like to see if i can find a way to stick to under 6 if possible. Of the 7 cards you mentioned, 3 are 5 mana. River Kelpie: I can see this guy being a multiplayer all-star but he requires stuff to be bouncing in and out of play to be really good. I would like my 5 drops to benefit from yet not require the bouncing strategy. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Currently undergoing testing. I find that when he resolves he is an unparalleled beast in the deck, the trick is resolving him with a 3 red casting cost in a 3 colour deck. Gray Merchant is kinda meh in 3 colour imo, i can easily see him just doing 2 damage under some scenario's and I want my 5 drops to be reliable bombs that will bring the pain if not dealt with.
I'm looking to replace Grim-grin. I just cant get the image of him sitting on the battlefield unable to untap to be of any use out of my head. What if he is the only creature in play? What if Marchesa isn't out and I dont want to sac anything? I dont want to use something that requires sacing to be useful. Same logic goes with Sidisi and Shadowborne Demon.
I feel like the deck is full of card draw and answers but is a bit short on questions. Any other suggestions for the 5 drop slot? If not the Priest of the Blood Rite will at least get tested. A demon army just seems too awesome to not at least try
Hm, I get your point. And yea I realized afterwards that River Kelpie is probably not where you want to be in 1v1. And yea, Grim-grin is probably too expensive for what he does.
What about Puppeteer Clique? I never really thought about him as a finisher before but he is ridiculously effective and he's definitely won me games before. He's really powerful in general and pretty ridiculous in marchesa with a sacrifice effect since you get to keep the creature you pull back. Plus he is flying, protects himself with or without marchesa and combos with Sage of Fables and a sac effect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
The flash option is nice although a bit expensive, costs as much as Venser, Shaper Savant without being even close to as good. I'm torn on him, I want to play him but Idk if he's really deserving of a spot. I don't really find myself wanting for creature removal.
Really I'm just hoping this is a trend, more merfolk wizards please!
My fetching order is usually blue, then black, then red. My motto is " you can always use more blue"(mainly for counter mana)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Voidmage Prodigy depends on how many Wizards you play. It was a total bomb in Derevi, but this was mainly because of the circumvention of commander tax.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Prodigy: Marchesa is a Wizard and outside of her there is 10 more wizards. In marchesa you could get around it thanks to the recursion.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
The only reason I enjoyed it in Derevi is because it required no additional setup and rewarded me just for doing what the deck does anyway (and Derevi likes to re ETB so there's that too).
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
It also goes infinite with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed and Living Death and at least 5 other creatures. That's more fun fact than anything though, it's real use is as a fantastic sac effect that lets you generate massive bursts of mana whenever you need to. Although FWIW, I have actually pulled off that combo once haha. My inner johnny had a field day.
Its not that i dont like the Alter it just has the "not a creature" problem. I would rather use Bloodflow Connoisseur as a free three mana sac outlet because it can at least swing and hit your opponent in the face.
Maybe its because its duals vs multiplayer, maybe its because my deck is more aggro then control but i have found that any non creature card in the deck needs to have eithor significant board impact on its own (meaning it doesnt require marchesa or another card to be good) OR it needs to mess up your opponent (discard, counters, boardwipes etc) OR it needs to give you card advantage. Mana rocks are the only exception to this and even then i contemplate taking them out for creatures like Iron Myr but i dont because people say thats crazy lol.
This is just the conclusion I have come to after lots of dual playtesting.
I can think of to many scenario's in duals where the alters just sit there doing nothing where if they were creatures they could at least block or attack. Maybe im correct, maybe im crazy but thats how I look at it
Edit: Ok i see it now. With flayer it wins the game. Nothing to bank on but its neat.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
What do you think of Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed for this deck?
After all the adjustments I have made, whats your stance on Kiki-Jiki? I know you didn't like him before when i ran like 9 Legos. I cut it down to 5, 6 if you include Marchesa. How many Legos are to many?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I think Xiahou Dun is better in a 1-2 colour deck.
Kiki has that dangerous RRR for a 3c deck. I think it'd be better to go without him, for your own consistency's sake. At least in the beginning while you are still hammering out a finalized list.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Edit: Ill but Sidisi back in Kiki's place
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Well I mean basically any ETB wins the game, not just flayer.
6 other creatures - infinite mana
Solemn simulacrum or any card draw - infinite card draw
Venser, Shaper Savant - bounce everything you dont control
Etc.
Flayer is the most obvious but it doesnt really matter who you have. If it happens the game is almost definitely over.
He's not running any counterspells. Thats interesting. As a 1v1 deck in the most cutthroat of metas with access to blue I'm pretty shocked he has none. Otherwise I get it. Also Unleash is pretty awesome in 1v1.
Personally, I don't agree with that philosophy. But that's why we get multiple incarnations of the same decks.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
He's also not using unspeakable symbol which is interesting. When I was testing the symbol out in 1v1 i actually took it out because it wasn't solid as a non-creature permanent. I found there were times when I had unlucky opening hands where I drew no creatures yet this thing was in my hand. I found myself hating it in those scenarios. I put it back because in this thread lots of people recommended i use it again, but after seeing a pro marchesa list take it out I'm tempted to do the same. Am i crazy?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Yu Ke's curve (mtgtop8 decklist)
Lands - 38
1 - 11
2 - 18
3 - 19 ( 3 of these are x costs/ delve that are likely played as 3 drops)
4 - 9
5 - 4
My curve
Lands - 37
1 - 10
2 - 22
3 - 14
4 - 9
5 - 5
6 - 2
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I looked at 5 different decklists. Sygg, Grenzo, Krenko, Zurgo, and Yu Ke's Marchesa decklist.
I then averaged the 5 curves together and adjusted it slightly to come up with this curve:
Lands: 36
1: 16
2: 19
3: 16
4: 9
5: 3
I'm going to see if I can mold my list to this curve. Expect an update soon
Edit: Decklist is now updated to match the curve. I wasn't to sure what to put in for all those 1 drops so i put in a bunch of the counters 3 drinks recommended a while ago.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Liliana, Heretical Healer: If on the fence with her. She is very good but the question is, is she good enough? Is she the next amazing black staple or is she just a glorified Unearth that makes a 2/2 zombie.
Disciple of the Ring: Is she terrible in an aggro list and only good in control? If not, do I have enough instants/sorceries to run her?
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: I'm not a fan but the card has been getting some hype. I'd like more opinions
Gilt-Leaf Winnower: Again, not a fan but what do you guys think?
Harbinger of the Tides: I really like this guy, am I crazy? Turn 2 bounce a mana dork or something. Could be good tempo early game. Late game it still has use being an instant speed bounce. Im more interested in just playing him as a 2 drop with the instant part just being "icing on the cake"
Priest of the Blood Rite: My gut reaction to this guy is I love him, but I have a soft spot for big value demon's like Abyssal Persecutor and Desecration Demon. If you have read the rest of the thread you will know I'm the only one. That being said this guy at least synergises with Marchesa potentially giving me 2 or 3 demons if I can blink him in and out a couple times. What do you guys think of him?
Blazing Hellhound: a 4/3 sac outlet that deals damage to creatures/players would be bonkers IF you didn't have to pay 1 each time. Does the pay 1 keep him from being playable?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
She's definitely better in 1v1 than multiplayer. I really don't think I'll run her in my multiplayer build but in 1v1 discard is really strong and she has a pretty good chance of surviving and building a board presence. I feel like she could be worth a shot but it's not a shoe-in.
At 5 she's expensive and her ability suite doesn't seem that game breaking unless you've got a lot instant and sorceries. And she definitely seems like a control card. I feel like you should pass this one.
I like these guys a lot as a card, I don't love them for marchesa. I'm really not a big fan of tokens strategies in marchesa because we really don't get much extra value out of them. Unlike creature cards we can't recur them or protect them, our tokens are no different than anyone else's. I mean a strong ETB is a strong ETB but idk. Did you ever consider running Beetleback Chief or Siege-gang Commander before? Pia and kiran don't add much extra value over chief to us since we have plenty of flyers and that ability is expensive. And I would argue siege-gang might be even better.
I rejected him. Then I thought about it more. He's actually pretty strong, 5 mana for an evasive 4/3 is strong and that ETB won't lack for targets. I've definitely wished for a guy who just killed on ETB before but I never liked Shadowborn Demon (sac trigger is annoying), Nekrataal (too many conditions), or Skinthinner (doesn't kill enough of the threats). This guy might warrant testing. But in your deck he's at the very top of your curve so I'm not sure he's effective enough for that. Try to think about the kinds of creature threats you see and figure out how many of them he'd be an answer to, that might help.
Not at all, in your deck I think you should play him. He seems really effective in 1v1.
EDIT: I just realized this totally contradicts what I said earlier lol. What I said still applies but I realized you were right about the value. Cheap, efficient, can flash if necessary and has the possibility of 2 for 1'ing your opponent, definitely solid.
I feel like given your curve any 5 mana guy you play you should be asking yourself "does this win me the game". Idk if this does. You get a lot of immediate P/T but without haste there's no damage until next turn. And since that's an upkeep trigger it's going to be hard to avoid, he is going to be hurting you. Also like I said before, any investment you make in tokens can be wiped out in an instant, marchesa provides no protection for them.
Lets think about this. If you can't keep recycling him, you paid 5 for a 5/5 flyer and a 2/2 that hurts you as much as he hurts your opponent. I don't think I'd play that. If I can recycle guys I can easily think of many things I'd rather be playing in the 5-6 mana range that aren't in your deck: Flayer of the Hatebound, River Kelpie, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Keiga, the Tide Star, Dragonlord Silumgar, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Gary, etc.
I mean you could just play Goblin Sharpshooter, that basically is 1 damage to a creature or player every time something dies, he just doesn't come with the sac effect. Idk I find him underwhelming.
You are kinda right, I am looking for 1-2 more big threats that are going to kill my opponent if left alive. As amazing as the Flayer is, its 6 mana. In all the non-green aggro decks I searched none of them played a 6 drop that couldn't also be cast for cheaper like Fireblast. Yu Ke's Marchesa (top8) list wasn't running him either so I thought I would try dropping him and see how much I miss him. If i'm really desperate I'll put him back, but i'd like to see if i can find a way to stick to under 6 if possible. Of the 7 cards you mentioned, 3 are 5 mana. River Kelpie: I can see this guy being a multiplayer all-star but he requires stuff to be bouncing in and out of play to be really good. I would like my 5 drops to benefit from yet not require the bouncing strategy. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Currently undergoing testing. I find that when he resolves he is an unparalleled beast in the deck, the trick is resolving him with a 3 red casting cost in a 3 colour deck. Gray Merchant is kinda meh in 3 colour imo, i can easily see him just doing 2 damage under some scenario's and I want my 5 drops to be reliable bombs that will bring the pain if not dealt with.
I'm looking to replace Grim-grin. I just cant get the image of him sitting on the battlefield unable to untap to be of any use out of my head. What if he is the only creature in play? What if Marchesa isn't out and I dont want to sac anything? I dont want to use something that requires sacing to be useful. Same logic goes with Sidisi and Shadowborne Demon.
I feel like the deck is full of card draw and answers but is a bit short on questions. Any other suggestions for the 5 drop slot? If not the Priest of the Blood Rite will at least get tested. A demon army just seems too awesome to not at least try
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Honestly, your value comment. I get stuck on multiplayer where everything has to have a purpose, vanilla creatures with a chance of maybe setting back one of your opponents aren't really enough. So I was thinking of him as removal and commenting that as far as removal goes he's mediocre. But that's actually not the point here. Here he's a cheap efficiently costed wizard that has the possibility of setting back your opponent a turn and can even be flashed in as an emergency response in the right situation. That's definitely value and worth trying out.
Hm, I get your point. And yea I realized afterwards that River Kelpie is probably not where you want to be in 1v1. And yea, Grim-grin is probably too expensive for what he does.
What about Puppeteer Clique? I never really thought about him as a finisher before but he is ridiculously effective and he's definitely won me games before. He's really powerful in general and pretty ridiculous in marchesa with a sacrifice effect since you get to keep the creature you pull back. Plus he is flying, protects himself with or without marchesa and combos with Sage of Fables and a sac effect.